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The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

24K views 148 replies 30 participants last post by  emuna 
#1 ·
The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I am starting this thread out with a
...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..


Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Angry Outbursts
4. Dishonesty
5. Annoying Habits.... and

6. "Independent Behavior"...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have an affect on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases you?



This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.





 
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#2 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

There should really be a balance with independent behavior. My wife and I each do things together and we do things indepentantly. It becomes a love buster when one or both spouses feel left out or neglected.

To me being independent adds to the marriage in a way that can be shared second hand. We both talk about things we do indepentantly and are fully aware of what we do.

For things like decisions we each consider what the other wants as well. It's like you said about being thoughtful. So with decisions we are not really too independent but with some activities we really are.
 
#10 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

There should really be a balance with independent behavior. My wife and I each do things together and we do things indepentantly. It becomes a love buster when one or both spouses feel left out or neglected.

To me being independent adds to the marriage in a way that can be shared second hand. We both talk about things we do indepentantly and are fully aware of what we do.

For things like decisions we each consider what the other wants as well. It's like you said about being thoughtful. So with decisions we are not really too independent but with some activities we really are.
It varies between couples how much time / togetherness they desire from each other... I'm pretty sure myself & husband are higher on the bar in comparison to the average (beings we're both "Time" & "Touchers" , love language wise)... it hasn't been a tug of war with either of us feeling he's too busy.. or I'm too busy, showing too much independence from each other..

In "His Needs / Her Needs", this particular book about parenting - still the Parents NEED their time alone, this segment ... Click HERE speaks how a couple need a minimum of 15 hours of undivided attention a week ...for intimate affection, sexual fulfillment, intimate conversation & recreational companionship... that could be a little over 2 hours a day if you spread it over a week's time..

We're probably not the norm...I'd rather go shopping with him over any girlfriend.. (not that I like to shop, actually I HATE it -give me Amazon & Ebay please!)....we seem to enjoy most everything together.. except he's went to Gun shows with friends, and I love a good rock concert that he'd rather not get his ear drums blown out seeing...

I'll go to his coin shows with him, he appreciates that... In our earlier years.. I'd even go to the Junk Yard with him... I wanted to help!
 
#3 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".

That's the ideal. Hard to bring to realization given our culture and our own individual selfishness, but it is possible I believe to a large degree, and I think speaks positively to what you are trying to say.
 
#8 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

"Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and cling to his wife. And the two shall become one.
So; they are no longer two, but one flesh".
I've experienced this. It absolutely requires that both people are participating fully; active listening, conversations with lots of "wait, can you explain what you just said" questions so that you are truly communicating intimately. If only one person is this open, then the two will never become one.
 
#4 · (Edited)
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

You'll note that Harley doesn't list infidelity as one of the Lovebusters. That's because it's covered by Dishonesty and Independent Behavior. In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration.

Going out with your friends and staying out 'til all hours knowing that your spouse is waiting at home and wondering where you are. Accepting a promotion that requires tons of travel, or even a move, without talking it over with your spouse. Having friends of the opposite sex when you know your spouse isn't okay with it. Having an affair. Basically, any time you're living your life as if your spouse and their feelings/thoughts either don't exist or don't matter. Those are independent behaviors.

A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.
 
#7 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

You'll note that Harley doesn't list infidelity as one of the Lovebusters. That's because it's covered by Dishonesty and Independent Behavior. In the Harley construct, independent behavior isn't a reference to having independent activities that you enjoy doing alone. Rather, independent behavior is doing things without taking your spouse into consideration.

Going out with your friends and staying out 'til all hours knowing that your spouse is waiting at home and wondering where you are. Accepting a promotion that requires tons of travel, or even a move, without talking it over with your spouse. Having friends of the opposite sex when you know your spouse isn't okay with it. Having an affair. Basically, any time you're living your life as if your spouse and their feelings/thoughts either don't exist or don't matter. Those are independent behaviors.

A hobby you do independently of your spouse isn't a Lovebuster sort of independent behavior as long as your spouse is on board with that activity. Dr. Harley is all about joint agreement in marriages.
VERY GOOD Summary of the types of things he is meaning....we see these stories / sort of issues often here...

Appreciate you posting these examples as I really didn't give any.. ..so thank you @Rowan ... :)
 
#5 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

For this "ideal" interdependence to occur, the Marriage must be made either in Heaven......or through blind luck.....not!

Luck is not blind nor is [our] life's main thrust...a willful choice.

A sailboat is always at the mercy of the winds of fate.
 
#6 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I am starting this thread out with a
...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..


Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Angry Outbursts
4. Dishonesty
5. Annoying Habits.... and

6. "Independent Behavior"...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have an affect on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases you?



This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.





I love this, and needed to read it. :) Thank you for posting this.
 
#12 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

The me me me part: it is true we tend in society for the selfish, "what am I going to get out of this" rather than what can I give to this relationship. However as a personal example, I,stopped drinking, started exercising and generally taking care of myself because I was tired of how I felt. Though it sounds selfish, I knew it would be a positive impact on my marriage as well. But, to stick to it, I needed to change my lifestyle for me to make it stick.

So, sometimes we need to change for ourselves, especially when it results in a positive for those around us. Now, of course my addictive personality means pushing my 55 year old body to extremes. My wife does think I'm crazy working out with 20 and 30 year old who are clearly stronger and in better shape. I liked being pushed to the brink. However, my stamina in the bedroom has greatly increased and at the point she never complains ;)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
#61 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

The me me me part: it is true we tend in society for the selfish, "what am I going to get out of this" rather than what can I give to this relationship. However as a personal example, I,stopped drinking, started exercising and generally taking care of myself because I was tired of how I felt. Though it sounds selfish, I knew it would be a positive impact on my marriage as well. But, to stick to it, I needed to change my lifestyle for me to make it stick.

So, sometimes we need to change for ourselves, especially when it results in a positive for those around us. Now, of course my addictive personality means pushing my 55 year old body to extremes. My wife does think I'm crazy working out with 20 and 30 year old who are clearly stronger and in better shape. I liked being pushed to the brink. However, my stamina in the bedroom has greatly increased and at the point she never complains ;)
This is a great personal example...Hopefully anytime we improve ourselves is going to be an improvement in our marriage..
Those are some great PERKS for your wife there @Ikaika !

So long as we don't grow away from our supporting spouses as we improve ourselves..

There was a guy I graduated with.. I remember him struggling with his weight all through high school... he married an over weight woman... then she had that Lipo surgery ..... she started getting attention from men like for the 1st time in her life... she was eating this up.. she started hanging with a younger crowd, partying, she suddenly wanted to re-live the youth she never had.. and left her husband...at this point he was in good shape too, thinnest he's ever been..

We only heard his side of the story mind you..but there was a situation where the ego of one got a little too inflated...felt they could do better...and it brought it all down. :(

I sense you have a great deal of gratitude towards your wife for standing beside you all those years, come hell or high water....this tying you to her. Bless you both..
 
#62 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

My favorite verse about marriage is:

1 Corinthians 7:27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek a wife.

:)
Ok Steve .... I read this ...but WHY ? Are you free or bound?
 
#18 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I am starting this thread out with a
...these are my personal feelings... not everyone is wired like me or wants the same things in Life & Matrimony.. As with any thread.. take my views with a grain of salt.. Feel free to expand upon this, open this discussion with your variation of thoughts & feelings.. what works for You & yours...

Ever since joining this forum, it's something I've noticed said time & time again, always defended...yet it's rubbed me the wrong way.. "the spirit of it" mostly...... I would CRINGE living with it.. and frankly.. if my husband had it or I...it would cause our romance to slowly wither & DIE..


Upon reading another of Harley's books (Author of His Needs, Her Needs) .... I came upon his explaining IT... he has it listed as one of the "Love Busters" (opposite of our emotional needs, this is what will put a fork through us, losing that loving feeling) ...among those are:

1. Selfish Demands
2. Disrespectful Judgments
3. Angry Outbursts
4. Dishonesty
5. Annoying Habits.... and

6. "Independent Behavior"...

How often do we hear others argue that true happiness comes from within, that each person should be responsible for his or her own happiness...seems a shift from the 60's "ME ME ...it's all about me" generation... we no longer believe we can make or should even try to make another person happy, even the one we took vows to Love, Honor & Cherish... that just doesn't work for me..

Deep down we all know we have an affect on other people...what we do, our words, our attitude, our actions speak, giving of our time, our willingness to "be there" when it may not have been convenient even can mean a great deal to someone.. those "little things".....we've all brightened another's day ...

And we've also hurt someone.... Basically... we can also make others "miserable" with our selfishness , and thoughtlessness if we're not careful..

Questions to ask: Are you making some of your decisions as if your spouse doesn't exist...this being habitual, are they Ok with it? ...Do you ask / seek how the other feels about your plans, or just forge ahead & do what pleases you?



This Love Buster represents any activity that fails to take your spouse's feelings & interests into account..... With a lack of empathy here, it's easy to fall into "independent behavior" as we're conveniently pushing aside the other's feelings, making light of them...if they are on the passive side, they may push down their protests, but feel the pain none the less, or in due time.. a divide takes place, snapping begins....

Seems some have been conditioned to react .."You're not my Mother (or father), "Stop trying to control me!" ... "Why should I have to have Your permission for something I want to do?"... "It's my body, I'll do what I want with it"...

Every situation is different, of course.. there ARE selfish controlling spouses... don't misunderstand..
BUT what if... it really has nothing ever to do with CONTROL....but instead about "THOUGHTFULNESS"... You're being controlled when someone forces you to do something that's GOOD for HIM or her, but BAD for you.. for their selfish gain, generally.

But "Thoughfulness" is entirely different.. You're being thoughtful when you decide not to do something that's good for you but hurtful /inconsiderate to your spouse (find that middle ground as best you can)..... this gets to the heart of what Independent Behavior really is...Thoughtlessness..It's running roughshod over the feelings of your spouse so you can be a little happier, getting your cake, but they are missing theirs.

*** A wise alternative to Independent Behavior is Interdependent Behavior....which benefits both of you simultaneously. You are both happy and neither of you suffers... making decisions with each other's interests and feelings in mind.





Nice post as always, SA.

I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.

There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap.
 
#20 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Nice post as always, SA.

I can't speak for the general TAM populace, but when I say the words "his/her happiness is not your responsibility", it is normally in response to a situation where the person is codependent.

There is an incredibly fine line between caring about your spouse's happiness and the "must fix it", nice guy (or girl) trap.
I think this is an important point. You have to look at the specifics of the marriage. Some people do need to start caring and taking responsibility for their spouse's happiness. Some "must fix it" could go a long way in certain relationships.
 
#24 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Congratulations, Mr. SA! :)
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#25 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Congratulations, Mr. SA! :)
Posted via Mobile Device
He had some tough moments @jld...see they just changed the Pre-trip Inspection to be more difficult.. like 2 months ago or something, it's on the DMV site.... the bus company even told him he's their "Guinea Pig" to see what's new & how detailed a new driver has to be -to pass...

At one point he opened the emergency exit on the ceiling, the buzzer goes off... when shutting it.. it got STUCK.. he couldn't get it off.....the guy did not seem happy...very stressful moment till he got it -thinking he's screwed ...

This wasn't the best of beginnings either...I guess the Bus company put a creeper & a hammer in the bus to use as this is how they train.... to use a hammer on the tires.. but husband KNEW from all the "You tube videos" this was a NO NO - to NOT do this (conflict of teaching!) ...but he did ask about the creeper & the guy says.. "This isn't looking good for you"...the man just didn't seem in a good mood...

This was before he even started his "Pre -trip Inspection" which was like an hour of his pointing out every little thing that it's not bent, cracked, broken, leaking, free of dirt, whatever and secured to the frame...a Tremendous amount of repeating yourself to get through this.. he also shook every seat on the bus -having to say "not loose , broken & securely attached to the floor, no damage from kids"

He forgot to say the FRAME itself was not bent or cracked and free of illegal welds.. one of the points he missed- as he did ask afterwards...

We prayed before he left.. But yeah.. he passed.. a sigh of relief.. if not he could have taken it again.. but we'd have to pay for Private testing... could be as high as $300 a pop as he needed to get this done.. and the DMV is heavily booked & school is starting.. they needed their buses !

He did Great with the driving portion & Air brakes.. they are expecting A LOT more for the Pre-Trip inspection now though..

So yeah.. we're celebrating !!
 
#26 · (Edited)
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Hey SA,

I can tell this is a very cerebral discussion here (didn't read all the replies) so I am going to change up the cerebralness a bit, with your permission as the thread starter, and instead of journaling my thoughts, ask a pointed question

I think you know how much I admire your marriage and have stated that here off and on over the years (mostly off).

So, with that disclaimer, so I don't think other posters think I am openly insulting you. . .

Do you think you would be considered a "Clinger" in another relationship?

By the way, I agree that Interdependence is the goal. One of my core values I had when I had a life coach we uncovered was teamwork, a partial reason for a career change. Teamwork is another way of saying interdependence IMHO.

Good topic. . .I score "off the charts" independent on personality tests and that may be indicative of selfishness. I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me and you're right to call it out.

I am only calling you out a bit with the pointed question. I really don't know you from Sally but I know you well enough when I ask a good self-reflective question, oh boy do you get thinking. :)
 
#27 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I have given a lot of my life to helping others, many times for little to no money but that does not mean I don't have a vein of selfishness or self-centeredness running through me

Every human being operates out of selfishness and self-centeredness. Every last one.

But I use those terms in a neutral sense; as a description. Not a condemnation.

Really think about it. Everything we do is based on getting the best outcome for ourselves.

And when we do good deeds; it's because we feel a need to do the right thing---so that we can feel better about ourselves or the state of the world.
 
#30 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Beautiful and heartfelt, SA. :)
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#31 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Hey SA,

Thank you so much for you reply; I did listen to every word.

TO answer your husbands rhetorical question: "What's wrong with a clinger?"

If you are both clingers: Nothing. Not one damn thing other than maybe some people (not me) may do the "gag me with a spoon" gesture. :)

If one of you isn't, it's freaky and unnerving to the one being clung to. And frustrating to the clinger. You start to worry about them and it becomes dysfunctional immediately. . .you sort of hope it will get better but you usually realize one is expecting a level of intimacy that you just can't give. And then you feel like the bad guy. The clinger conversely feels disappointed all the time.

I feel this was a parallel topic, close enough to "Independence"/"Interdependence" that it deserved discussion. I hope that was okay with you.
 
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#48 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Hey SA,

Thank you so much for you reply; I did listen to every word.

TO answer your husbands rhetorical question: "What's wrong with a clinger?"

If you are both clingers: Nothing. Not one damn thing other than maybe some people (not me) may do the "gag me with a spoon" gesture. :)
Yes.. why compatibility is so important.. never to be overlooked or felt we can change anyone....this may come off a cute little diddy by Dr Seuss .. but it's true !



If one of you isn't, it's freaky and unnerving to the one being clung to. And frustrating to the clinger. You start to worry about them and it becomes dysfunctional immediately. . .you sort of hope it will get better but you usually realize one is expecting a level of intimacy that you just can't give. And then you feel like the bad guy. The clinger conversely feels disappointed all the time.

I feel this was a parallel topic, close enough to "Independence"/"Interdependence" that it deserved discussion. I hope that was okay with you.
It does deserve Opened up... Here is the BAD, the Weak, the Needy....the Clingy (in a negative light)...

I don't feel spending 15 hrs of emotionally invested "one on one" in a week's time , as Harley recommends would be considered Clingy in any way though.. but a minimal balance for the majority... there will be @EllisRedding marriages that are OK with far less..

What you describe here could be called "THE SPONGE" taken from this book High Maintenance Relationships:

The Anatomy of a Sponge

* Constantly in need; gives nothing back
* Clingy
* Stifling
* Needy
* Guilt-inducing
* Fearful
* Egocentric
* Smothering
* Crisis-oriented

Understanding a Sponge

Sponges suffer from terribly low self-esteem.
Sponges are desperately trying to merge with another person in a vain attempt to feel better about themselves.

Sponges don’t posess enough self worth to stand on their own two feet, so they try to stand on yours.

Sponges, more than most other high-maintenance relationships, are crying out, strangely enough, to be needed.

The avaricious man is like the barren sandy ground of the desert which sucks in all the rain and dew with greediness, but yields no fruitful herbs or plants for the benefit of others.

Do you know a Sponge?

If you can answer yes to at least 10 of these questions then you are in a relationship with a Sponge.

1. Sometimes I feel that this person is attached to my side.
2. Rarely does this person explore my needs and concerns.
3. Sometimes it feels as if this person is literally soaking up my time and resources.
4. This relationship may be close in some respects, but it is stagnant.
5. This person almost always appears to be needy.
6. When I say no to this person, I often feel guilty.
7. This person is clingy and needy.
8. I often feel smothered by this person.
9. It sometimes feels as if this person is simply moving from one crisis to another.
10. At times I feel as if this person is pulling me under.
11. This person has a fear of missing out or being left out.
12. I have difficulty setting boundaries with this person.
13. I spend a disproportionate amount of time working on this person’s problems and concerns compared to my own.
14. This person is not afraid to ask for a favor.
15. This person often drains my energy.
None of these would apply in how husband sees me or how I see him.. not in the smallest way..

I did a post not too long ago on a thread here > http://talkaboutmarriage.com/general-relationship-discussion/335033-if-you-good-marriage.html ...I believe I hit on something about myself, my childhood & how it shaped me...(we all have our stories right)...

A while back @jld suggested I get this book... The Good Marriage: How and Why Love Lasts ... so I bought it.. skimmed through it.. it spoke & explained 5 different types of Marriages...

1. Romantic Marriage

2. Rescue Marriage

3. Companionate Marriage

4. Traditional Marriage

5. Renegotiating Marriage

When I read the chapter on "the Romantic Marriage"... it was like ...WOW.. that is so US !!...but also what I learned in that chapter was how many in these type marriages speak of a "hole" in their childhoods.. a severe loss... it spoke of one woman who never had a Mother, she was deprived of maternal affection & love, how her mother didn't touch her..

In my life.. my mother loved me.. but she left me.. she had a nervous breakdown & ran off with an alcoholic.. she was my best friend before that.. my world so to speak, and that was ripped from me..

I will copy a few parts from that particular chapter...

All Courtship begins with a fantasy - a fervent desire, bordering on delusion, that another person can step in & magically undo all of life's hurts and disappointments . The new loved one will adore you forever, protect you, drive away wicked people, make you feel whole, valued, beautiful, worthy, and honorable - forever...

then a few more paragraphs & it says this...

"Every child experiences some hurts & losses while growing up, no matter how loving the parents. Of the people in Romantic marriages, a high proportion had sustained severe losses during childhood, including the death or physical or mental illness of a parent, Sara & to a lessor extent Matt, did not feel loved by their Mothers. Both spoke of having a "hole' in their childhoods. The sense of magic and of a relationship that extends beyond time and space may rest on the unconscious connection between the adult lover and the lost beloved person from childhood"


....down further.. it spoke of men..

" Several of the men in romantic marriages had lonely, isolated childhoods in which fantasy probably played an important role. Others had sustained losses as children, the mothers of 2 were hospitalized for many years. These men came to adulthood with intense, long post poned needs for love & closeness.

These men's sense of making up for early losses may help explain why they felt almost physically connected to their wives. The couples in romantic marriages often seemed to have an unusual unity, not only on an emotional level, but on a physical level as well.."I've never not felt in love with her. I've never even had dreams in which I was with someone else. She is very much a part of me, a soul mate".. said one man.. His wife said .."I feel whole when he's in the house".

In fact, each partner's central identity was defined by the marital bond, as it they were halves of a whole.

It went on to speak of a man who described the early losses & the love for his wife..he was an only child who lost his father in an airplane crash when he was 10, then his Mom became a falling down drunk...family life was non -existent.. growing up he watched "Father knows Best"...he would think "I wish I had a family like that...I knew I was missing something...it was a stable family, they respected each other, they dealt with the little foibles of life, nothing could destroy that stability"..

That television show kept his hope alive.. it was the church of his childhood..and in his marriage his passionate love for his wife reflected his joy, his sense of having been granted a miracle, and his sheer incredulity at finding her....
When I read all of that.. I can relate to feeling LIKE THIS...(I was an only child too).... I enjoyed watching shows like the Waltons , Little House on the Prairie .... loved that Larger family stability ...

or listening to my Beloved Grandmother next door speak of her Courtship with my Grandfather...they had a very loving marriage... these things surely influenced me and gave me hope for my own future.

But I so wanted to GIVE In a relationship , I felt I had much to share with another to enhance their life too.....I am a hard worker (even if not a career woman, work ethic is high on the bar)... honest to a fault, responsible...but also very Romantic...what can I say... I love intimacy... I am passionate about it!....

It wasn't about taking.. blood sucking someone....ya know...in this way.. I surely feel I was healthy -even if a little beaten down by my childhood back then. I dreamed of a much better life for myself & that special man ...what we could create together... :)
 
#32 · (Edited)
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

One of my husband's lines is "Why get married if you don't want to be with the other person"
Well, I sense THIS other question your husband asked ISN"T rhetorical and is actually a curiosity.

Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. I think their marriage was about well, more "business". . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.

They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.

They had FRIENDS for that.

They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.

Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.

I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?

Do you think?
 
#33 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

No way I could marry someone I didn't consider an exceptional companion. And they would also have to perceive me as such.

It is the single most important element - to me.


Well, I sense THIS other question your husband asked ISN"T rhetorical and is actually a curiosity.

Now. . .I am NO expert by any means on this complicated topic of marriage but I looked at my grandparents. I think their marriage was about well, more "business". . .raising kids, division of domestic labor (cooking her, handy stuff him) provision for basic needs (2 incomes), SOME minor companionship (travel escort), someone to share in big decisions (weddings, funerals, illnesses), sex of course (as a grandchild pretty freaky to think about that but that's how I got here I guess, lol) . . .but. . .he went fishing and she played cards. She was involved in the UAW union and he liked to tile for his work and side jobs.

They almost DIDN"T want to spend time with each other.

They had FRIENDS for that.

They have spouses for the other list I mentioned above.

Who knows. . maybe I integrated a wrong value from that, I'm not sure.

I do feel we have placed this HUGE burden upon the institution of marriage that we (maybe esp. men) can't live up to. I mean, it's great, SO GREAT, what you and your husband have, but I am not even sure that should be the goal, the GOLD STANDARD, you know?

Do you think?
 
#34 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

My husband is my best friend in every was. But for long term relationships, I think it's really important that both partners also encourage independent behaviours. We all have dreams, and it seems to me no fair to stand in the way of someone's dreams.

There have been times I have felt practically abandoned by my husband pursuing his dreams. So common a thing it even has a name "work widow". But it was just a period of time, and things settled down.

Other times he has sacrificed to support my dreams.

I guess if you both always have the same dreams, that would make things easy. But how often does that happen?
 
#35 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

What I take away from this is that "Interdependence far exceeds Independence!"

I really think that's the singular message that God's been trying to convey to us all for years!

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#36 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

It is a tricky balance. My example is that my wife travels a lot for work. She is very intelligent and attractive. At first, she was happy just hanging out in her room after dinner. She would FaceTime so the kids and I could see and talk with her. Lately, she goes out on her own to bars, the downtown scene, etc. We have had our issues lately in our marriage. So it makes me anxious and worrisome since in the past, this is how she met men. Of course, when she is out, she gets a lot of attention. She likes that attention. She easily could act on it and I would never know. A friend of hers that was in the same line of work was married about a year ago. Her husband from the start told her, you are not going to be on the road. He knew the same scenario existed and did not want to deal with it.

When I express my worry about this behavior, my wife tells me she can do what she wants. And she can, I do not argue that. My point is that she could at least consider my feeling and where I am coming form and possible change her behavior. Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have? I don't think I am asking a lot or being controlling. I just want her to be more thoughtful.
 
#37 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

It is a tricky balance. My example is that my wife travels a lot for work. She is very intelligent and attractive. At first, she was happy just hanging out in her room after dinner. She would FaceTime so the kids and I could see and talk with her. Lately, she goes out on her own to bars, the downtown scene, etc. We have had our issues lately in our marriage. So it makes me anxious and worrisome since in the past, this is how she met men. Of course, when she is out, she gets a lot of attention. She likes that attention. She easily could act on it and I would never know. A friend of hers that was in the same line of work was married about a year ago. Her husband from the start told her, you are not going to be on the road. He knew the same scenario existed and did not want to deal with it.

When I express my worry about this behavior, my wife tells me she can do what she wants. And she can, I do not argue that. My point is that she could at least consider my feeling and where I am coming form and possible change her behavior. Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have? I don't think I am asking a lot or being controlling. I just want her to be more thoughtful.
That you tolerate this without consequences or mirroring likely has a good bit to do with why she continues to behave this way.
 
#38 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Mirroring? Are you saying I should go out and do the same thing? That does not seem like the answer if that is what you are suggesting.

If your spouse comes to you and says something you are doing is hurting them, my hope is that most people would do something to change their behavior to make their spouse happy.
 
#39 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Mirroring? Are you saying I should go out and do the same thing? That does not seem like the answer if that is what you are suggesting.

If your spouse comes to you and says something you are doing is hurting them, my hope is that most people would do something to change their behavior to make their spouse happy.
When a relationship is healthy, that would be the expected outcome.

How about when it isn't?
 
#40 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

If it isn't healthy, I do not know the outcome. Everything is deflected back at me when I bring it up. It's my issue of being suspicious or jealous, etc.

Ideally, it would be better just to not have to have her travel. Take the opportunity away to keep her out of those situations.
 
#42 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

I check her phone and the Verizon bill. Nothing so far. But she also knows I check it!

I cannot answer the likelihood question. One day, I feel like she would do the right thing. The next day, I am certain she would do something because it would be so easy to do it being on the road.
 
#44 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Why would a married woman go out at 9 pm and not get back to hotel room until 2 am in a large city while she is away from her spouse? What intentions/motives does that person have?
Um, is this a quiz question?

She's disrespectful? Immature? Maybe a drinking problem? She wants to fool around? She's stupid with her safety?

Did I guess any right?
 
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#45 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

@RyanWSU1975


Hopefully you're not living in Pullman anymore :grin2: j/k!!!



But, what your wife is doing on the road, is not an example of "independence in marriage".

Independence, in that situation, would be going about her work day; then getting a meal (perhaps with a mixed group of coworkers/clients)-----then returning to her hotel room alone.

That's independence, responsibility and dedication to the marriage. If she feels horny while she's on the road, she can take a vibrator. If she feels alone, well, that's what she signed up for by accepting that position in the company. There's always things like Skype, for connecting with you and the kids.

She can go work out in the hotel gym. She can read, or watch TV in her room.

I think a job that takes you away from your spouse a lot must just suck bigtime. But some folks can do it no problem. They are independent to an extreme. And if there is trust and honesty, no problem.

But what you describe sounds totally unacceptable.
 
#51 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Great Topic!

I heard Dr. Harley give this explanation about IB on his radio show once and it really helped me understand it even better. He has a wife who was upset by things her husband did that he didn't see why it mattered or didn't want to stop doing.

I can't stand IB but even I was kind of thinking "chill out, woman..." over some of the things she didn't like him doing.

But Dr. Harley told the husband to imagine he is driving a truck, and his wife is outside, tethered to the truck with a rope, jogging along side. Everything he does - every stop, every turn, every acceleration affects her whether he intends for it to or not.

I'm not sure it was the same couple but there was one where the H made dresser drawers for their child. His wife didn't want him to make them and had a different idea than him of what "finished" meant. (In her world finished involved sanding and stain, in his world, apparently not so much."

At first I thought - why on earth would she not love that he's making this? But then I realized - the fact that it was taking him so long and she wanted the wood stained and he didn't see the importance in that, really did affect her too.

Interesting.

My H is getting much better but he would do IB things that were super little, but just drove me crazy and really hurt my feelings because they conveyed the message "I'm don't care what you want/you're right here but I'm oblivious to you." and that would be he would 1) just flip the channel on the TV or change the radio station when I was right there, never asking "Do you mind if I change this?" and 2) Turn the bedroom light off the second he got into bed while I was still doing things like undressing or straightening the blankets. It was like ...WTF? Do you not see that I am right here using the light?

I think that's IB. Anything like that is crazy making because even if it's small it reminds you that you have no control over that part of your life. The other person just does whatever the hell they want and you are dragged along.

Now that I know about IB I try very hard to always ask him "do you mind if I" "how would you feel about me..." before I do anything that affects him.

Except I am not going to stop eating potato chips. Sorry. But until I start to get fat - he'll just have to deal with that one. (I do eat them in the other room where the crunching won't bother him.)
 
#53 · (Edited)
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.

Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.

But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"

So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board ;).

I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week. ;) (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)

A guy has gotta roam dear.
 
#56 ·
Re: The Love Busting "Independent behavior" attitude & how it can hurt our marriages.

Now see, speaking to the travel aspect of a relationship and independence, I would like my second career to be a traveling job M-F and I would like to meet a partner who was cool with that. Essentially I would travel Monday through Friday and spend my time teaching healthcare professionals and in my off time, during the week, I hope to exercise and write. I would be well paid for this with benefits.

Fly back in on Friday and be with her/family. Vacations, holidays. . .all in there. . .being self-employed I never had any of this. I"m single now so I can choose this lifestyle unencumbered.

But, I have had women scold me saying "Well, you'll never have a relationship that way!!!"

So maybe this is too unrealistic on how people are wired (wired, to well, "cling". . .darn. . .there goes that negative word). I can't be shaking a Simplyamorous-like SO loose at the airport every week, holding my ankle as I try to board ;).

I am not sure I can handle these dramatic partings every week. ;) (what an ego, lol - yes I'm teasing you SA)

A guy has gotta roam dear.
A few of us on TAM have this sort of set up. It has its advantages.

The key for Dug and me is keeping a strong emotional connection going. You have to make her feel like she is still a priority, no matter what. And she has to see the advantages to her of your having your freedom.
 
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