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RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

34K views 325 replies 34 participants last post by  Relationship Teacher 
#1 · (Edited)
1. Introduction

Those that have experienced the trauma of an affair find it to be one of the most traumatic events of their lives. Both partners lives are instantly upended, as well as those immediately close to them, such as children. The betrayed/injured/rejected partner is left with their world no longer making sense to them, displaced by grief, anger, resentment, and sadness (2). The partners often engage in bitter disputes, sometimes physically so, as they deal with the immediate ramifications of the disclosure. But, what about the one that disclosed the affair? They suffer as well, with feelings of guilt, indignation, detachment, righteousness, sadness, fear, etc.

I am only concerned with what is proven to work, which is going to encompass what clinicians employ as they encounter infidelity in their practices Whether one disagrees with a specific approach, the reason behind it or has their own pet approach, we have to align ourselves with the published research, not because being a scientist makes them correct, but because the scientific method discovers what works and what doesn't. Bad research is addressed within the community of researchers, meaning that research evolves to correct upon the downfalls from previously published research and to introduce new hypotheses, which may end up as working theories. Good science implies asking a question, testing it and determining what the truth is.

A common theme throughout this thread will be tackling the following (1):
Sexual fidelity is a normative assumption for most romantic relationships despite data suggesting that substantial numbers of persons in assumed monogamous relationships cheat.
I will introduce the reasoning behind the necessity for individuals to align themselves with objective reality, rather than with ideals (normative assumptions). In life, we have laws for how the world works. We can fight with all of our might, but we still cannot eliminate subdue the laws of physics, for example. We have only the option of working with immutable laws, meaning that we can receive the benefits, or reality can impose punishments. The target of this thread is the question, what are you going to do about it. Victimhood will be exposed for the punishments it imposes on individuals and what they may do about it; this is a very key element to the UAP. Much of the information will stem from CBT (various waves).

Throughout this thread, one will see the following:

A.)Why individuals cheat- I tripped/A Cry for Help
B.)Statistics
C.)Types of affairs
D.)Affair differences men/women (including perceptions)
E.)How to address an undisclosed affair (pre)
F.)How to address a disclosed affair (post)
G.)What NOT to do
H.)Understanding the betrayed
I.)Understanding the unfaithful
J.)Individual healing
K.)Understanding THE affair
L.)Rebuilding the relationship
M.)Boundaries
N.)Trust
O.)Choosing to end it
P.)Keeping it affair-proof
Q.)Preventing an affair
R.)Mindfulness
S.)Emotional Intelligence
T.)Victimhood
U.)Forgiveness
more may follow


-Purpose:

To compete with commonly held myths regarding infidelity, and to generally educate. The only thing that matters is that individuals find efficacious solutions to their problems, yielding the healthiest outcomes. One must always consider the ramifications for their thoughts, behaviors, and actions, including positive and negative externalities. Infidelity is a delicate subject, meaning that lives are on the line in a number of ways. This topic is one in which individuals have hardened stances on, making it a perfect candidate to receive attention.

-Limitations:

I will only be using scholarly sources for this thread.
I have other professional demands on my time, leaving this specific undertaking to a few hours per week.

-Bio:

I am a coach that lives for research and helping individuals. I am certified to coach. Coaching is a process that requires extensive work on my part to make it efficacious. This means that I have spent (and will continue to) incredible amounts of time to research the various aspects that involve relationships. My greatest interests are in sexual dysfunctions and infidelity. I have this interest to help others, because of the incredible pain I suffered in the past. I greatly desire to help others not feel the pain I felt.

One might ask why the heck I bother on forums, then. I do need some challenges and disagreements in my life. The relationship between coach and client does not present as much skepticism as I feel is required, leaving me to continuously test my knowledge with you. I learn by having what I say challenged. Being challenged forces me to consider things from alternate points of view, creating the demand for better arguments on my behalf. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.

I am thirty years old, engaged, and have a great little boy.

My Experience

I was cheated on a long time ago. I have felt the worst feelings and thought the worst things. I approach infidelity with the understanding of how it works and what it feels like, but with the understanding that we have no choice but to move on and eliminate the trauma that we feel. Through my incredible suffering, I learned an incredible amount about how emotions work. I spent absurd amounts of time to heal and understand the common pitfalls. I then realized that I could help others heal in the same manner that I did.

To be continued...........



1. Walters, A., & Burger, B. (2013). 'I Love You, and I Cheated': Investigating Disclosures of Infidelity to Primary Romantic Partners. Sexuality & Culture, 17(1), 20-49. doi:10.1007/s12119-012-9138-1
2. Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.
 
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#2 ·
While I understand your desire to talk about reality and dealing with it, there are also some simplifying assumptions that can be made. So although it's true that people cheat, it's also true that promiscuity and swinging from tree to tree can be fun. And if the one stipulation one makes when forgoing all others is to demand the same of their spouse, then violating that stipulation completely ends the one thing that artificially binds a couple. For that reason, many need not even try to understand the WS... it immediately becomes irrelevant as the bond is broken and there is no more spouse. No need for analysis, hand-wringing, understanding, etc. Anger, resentment and grief from loss are ok, and I suppose that warrants a discussion.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#5 · (Edited)
Yep, its a choice to cheat, there is no excuse. I certainly wouldn't waste any time with anything that tries to justify cheating, or the one who cheats.
Its wrong and cruel, period.
Some can stay after it, and some cant. Some stay our of fear of being alone or of being a single parent.
 
#4 ·
RT,
You initiated the thread with a great post on an enormously important topic.

A ways back I attempted to get folks to answer a very simple question. Would they prefer to marry someone who:
- Treats them great during the marriage has a brief affair and immediately ends it and works to recon when discovered
Or
- Doesn't really treat you well, but never cheats on you

Almost no one would answer the question as asked.

The sad thing is - the second spouse is sort of chronically breaking their vow to 'love'.



1. Introduction

Those that have experienced the trauma of an affair find it to be one of the most traumatic events of their lives. Both partners lives are instantly upended, as well as those immediately close to them, such as children. The betrayed/injured/rejected partner is left with their world no longer making sense to them, displaced by grief, anger, resentment, and sadness (2). The partners often engage in bitter disputes, sometimes physically so, as they deal with the immediate ramifications of the disclosure. But, what about the one that disclosed the affair? They suffer as well, with feelings of guilt, indignation, detachment, righteousness, sadness, fear, etc.

I am only concerned with what is proven to work, which is going to encompass what clinicians employ as they encounter infidelity in their practices Whether one disagrees with a specific approach, the reason behind it or has their own pet approach, we have to align ourselves with the published research, not because being a scientist makes them correct, but because the scientific method discovers what works and what doesn't. Bad research is addressed within the community of researchers, meaning that research evolves to correct upon the downfalls from previously published research and to introduce new hypotheses, which may end up as working theories. Good science implies asking a question, testing it and determining what the truth is.

A common theme throughout this thread will be tackling the following (1):


I will introduce the reasoning behind the necessity for individuals to align themselves with objective reality, rather than with ideals (normative assumptions). In life, we have laws for how the world works. We can fight with all of our might, but we still cannot eliminate subdue the laws of physics, for example. We have only the option of working with immutable laws, meaning that we can receive the benefits, or reality can impose punishments. The target of this thread is the question, what are you going to do about it. Victimhood will be exposed for the punishments it imposes on individuals and what they may do about it; this is a very key element to the UAP. Much of the information will stem from CBT (various waves).

Throughout this thread, one will see the following:

A.)Why individuals cheat- I tripped/A Cry for Help
B.)Statistics
C.)Types of affairs
D.)Affair differences men/women (including perceptions)
E.)How to address an undisclosed affair (pre)
F.)How to address a disclosed affair (post)
G.)What NOT to do
H.)Understanding the betrayed
I.)Understanding the unfaithful
J.)Individual healing
K.)Understanding THE affair
L.)Rebuilding the relationship
M.)Boundaries
N.)Trust
O.)Choosing to end it
P.)Keeping it affair-proof
Q.)Preventing an affair
R.)Mindfulness
S.)Emotional Intelligence
T.)Victimhood
more may follow


-Purpose:

To compete with commonly held myths regarding infidelity, and to generally educate. The only thing that matters is that individuals find efficacious solutions to their problems, yielding the healthiest outcomes. One must always consider the ramifications for their thoughts, behaviors, and actions, including positive and negative externalities. Infidelity is a delicate subject, meaning that lives are on the line in a number of ways. This topic is one in which individuals have hardened stances on, making it a perfect candidate to receive attention.

-Limitations:

I will only be using scholarly sources for this thread.
I have other professional demands on my time, leaving this specific undertaking to a few hours per week.

-Bio:

I am a coach that lives for research and helping individuals. One might ask why the heck I bother on forums, then. I do need some challenges and disagreements in my life. The relationship between coach and client does not present as much skepticism as I feel is required, leaving me to continuously test my knowledge with you. I learn by having what I say challenged, even if it is not done in a nice manner. Being challenged forces me to consider things from alternate points of view, creating the demand for better arguments on my behalf. The more I learn, the more I realize I don't know.


To be continued...........



1. Walters, A., & Burger, B. (2013). 'I Love You, and I Cheated': Investigating Disclosures of Infidelity to Primary Romantic Partners. Sexuality & Culture, 17(1), 20-49. doi:10.1007/s12119-012-9138-1
2. Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.
 
This post has been deleted
#98 ·
First of all ~~~ this is a substantially inadequate bio. I visited your meandering musings from the safe distance of a vpn just a couple days ago and have a couple questions.



1. On your blog you've claimed expertise and listed yourself as some kind of "certified coach" ~ who were you "certified" by and what was the actual training you had to undertake to become "certified"?



2. Do you have any other qualifications? A college degree of any sort?



3. Are you doing this out of your house and do you have another real job?



4.. Did you just get married in the last year?



5.. Have you ever experienced marital infidelity or did your girlfriend cheat on you?



6. Are you somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum {I watched one of your youtube videos and you looked super young, naive and either autistic or demon possessed - HERE }



I apologize if you are actually some kind of new age but otherwise legitimate professionally degreed and fully state licensed experienced relationship counselor. I don't know you but just a quick review of your website led me to conclude you have no idea what you are talking about, that you have no professional and little personal experience with marriage and marital infidelity and that you are puffing your credentials and experience up and your visits/posts here and many other places on the web are simply a way to attempt to drive traffic/monetize your little website advice hobby probably inspired after a thorough reading of some demon like Tolle.



Second, the scientific method is very difficult to utilize in this field. It would be unethical and immoral to actually have a true control group of desperate betrayed spouses that were offered and given no relationship advice whatsoever. It's one of the reasons this area of counseling/coaching/mentoring is so wide open to scamsters because anyone can claim success and ~ {cough}, expertise. Gottman has done some interesting research and actually did some kind of study concluding that variations of behavioral therapy showed beneficial outcome correlations while "Imago" type therapy did not. He concluded "active listening" is disastrous to mending troubled marriages. But I find much of Gottman's research self-serving and as a wayward husband that married his affair partner, he lacks credibility. I detest supposed relationship experts like him {Gottman} and Dr. Glover who cheat upon and divorce their first wives then write and sell books about SAVING marriages after having destroyed theirs. Can you imagine the eye rolling their ex-betrayed spouses must be doing and the pain they are enduring every time they hear or read about their ex's supposed relationship expertise?



I look forward to our dialogue and apologize for my disparaging remarks but, IMO, there are real hurting betrayed spouses coming to forums like this that need real help from real experts and/or real persons that have experienced and survived {recovered or divorced} from the same pains and experiences that they are enduring. I hope it's not too much to ask that you provide a more extensive bio especially as you write and hold yourself out as an "expert" with lots of "clinical" knowledge and experience.


I second all of this except the apologies. You are not a psychiatrist don't act like one. Don't dupe people into thinking you have the ability to help. You are using statistics to normalize unacceptable behavior. Makes me sick.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#32 ·
This, I agree.

I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.
 
#37 ·
You choose to marry and you choose to cheat.

As I get older, I think the idea that 'monogamy is a myth' is a cop-out. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying it is an excuse.

Beyond the obvious reasons it is an excuse: there's also the whole fact that people generally don't marry the first five or six people they've dated and had sex with. Serial monogamy, if you will. That situation still fulfills the desire of humans to bang everything, and allows them to be monogamous with one person.
 
#38 ·
Yes I hear that idea that men especially are 'wired to have sex with as many women as possible' and that also is an excuse.
The idea that you have to 'sow your wild oats' before you marry is wrong as well. There are many men who don't do that who are happily married.
I believe that we are made to be in a family unit, made to be faithful and exclusive.
As you say, its a decision to cheat, especially if the affair is longer. Each time you have sex with that person you are making that decision again and putting your selfish lusts before your spouse and children.
 
#39 ·
Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.

But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).

Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.
 
#44 ·
Thing is, you marry a single human, not a bell curve.

The statistics say:
- In general men are less forgiving of an affair
- And are more likely to cheat

Me personally - I'm wired pretty well for monogamy. And forgiveness. M2 would never forgive an affair. She might stay with me, but she'd never really forgive me.
 
#67 · (Edited)
Thank you for the responses thus far. Some of your thoughts highlight the reason for why this thread was created. My intentions are to enable individuals to make their decisions and be happier about them, regardless of what they are. If one wishes to dispute the information I present, I only ask that they include an explanation with a positive claim as to what "is" correct then.


A.) Why individuals cheat (there will be future additions to the various aspects of the UAP, especially part A)

To understand what pre-empts this most traumatic instance (or series of), one must step into the mind (cognitive and emotional) of the distressed partner, not to say that only distressed partners seek extradyadic activity. In fact, one of the studies I will present today discusses surveyed reasonings and mindsets that foster adultery. So, for me to tell you to empathize with the unfaithful does not mean that you must feel for them, or that you are validating their behavior. Empathy is a basic component to Emotional Intelligence, something necessary for a successful life, at work and at home. What is empathy, then (1)?

Recognizing emotions in others. Empathy, another ability that builds on emotional self-awareness, is the fundamental "people skill.".... People who are empathic are more attuned to the subtle social signals that indicate what others need or want.
To fail to empathize in this situation is analogous to not attempting to understand what cancer is and how it works. That said, one will be confronted with feelings and cognitions that are not necessarily commendable or resembling any reasonable amount of logic. But, the truth exists and it begs to be discovered so that workable solutions may be derived. In working with infidelity, one must look it as a symptom of the underlying relational dysfunction (2), that is, that disconnection, marital dissatisfaction and unmet relational needs are the reasons individuals fall prey to committing adulterous (extra-dyadic) behavior (additional contributions will be discussed, based on various published studies). Understanding this reality greatly enables individuals to heal from affairs, re-create a viable relationship, address the character flaws that allowed for adulterous behavior and to prevent any future infidelity. As such, an individual may impart great relational gains upon their relationship by understanding the various dynamics at play with infidelity.(3)

Sexual infidelity occurs when the sexual and/or intimacy needs of one or both members of a couple are not being satisfied in that relationship and when the constraints against infidelity are either weak or nonexistent.
Let me finish today's addition by discussing boundaries, which will imply joint-responsibility for the "underlying relational dysfunction". Often, a young couple will seek out pre-marital counseling in an effort to ensure their long-term success is prepared for. Individuals may not clearly understand what they are getting into when they say "I do". Those that are still in the infatuation stage might take it for granted, not realizing that the rush of dopamine will soon end, leaving the actual relationship work in the hands of clear(er)-headed indviduals with different opinions. Boundaries tend to be under-established or over-established, depending on various factors related to backgrounds and the established power structure of the relationship. Understanding that we humans are fallible and tend to be more irrational than rational, it only makes sense that boundaries are established to police one another so that grievous mistakes aren't made. Too few boundaries leave potentially dangerous behavior to be viable. Too many boundaries might sabotage the relational connection, literally creating the basis for the desire to seek connection..... elsewhere. That explains the need for some type of pre-marital counseling so that boundaries are joint established, making them voluntary and the reason for the arrangement entirely voluntary.

Boundaries are necessary because individuals have weaknesses, and I am not different, regardless of what I know or how much I train my E-IQ. Individuals think that they will always have the ability to say yes or now with ease, not adequately planning for positive and negative emotional hijackings that drastically undermine this cause. When we confide (emotionally) with others, we form bonds with them. Think of this like the roots of a tree. When the roots of a bond are established, the activity of exploring the connection become rewarding, which encourages the thoughts and actions that back the behavior. One can be receptive to the roots of another individual, and vice-versa, even if the primary relationship is fundamentally healthy; That is where boundaries come in. Boundaries are self and jointly enforced, meaning that it requires a mindful approach to protect the relationship.

I don't blame the injured partner for the actions of their partner, but one should not be surprised due to the statistical realities of infidelity. Further, if we properly diagnose the symptoms to the relational dysfunction, then it implies that the relationship truly can be saved. If the assumed cause of the adultery was because "their spouse is just a bad person", then we leave no room for any forward movement to take place. That leads us to one prompt that we have for the injured partner, were you not enforcing the boundaries of the relationship, leaving your partners vulnerabilities to be exploited, assuming their self-enforcement mechanism failed? This could lead one to realize that their spouse might have had employment that imposed risks to their marriage, such as travel, work around members of the opposite sex, work with many single individuals, etc. There also could be instances where the spouse was often allowed to go off and do their own thing, like guy's or girl's night out. It is important to qualify what constitutes time spent away from the primary romantic partner. In that light, one should consider the opportunities that are not acted upon to maintain or build upon the primary connection. If one hangs out with their friends three times per week, then we are witnessing behavior that could impose risks of immediate adulterous behavior or long-term disconnection. Did your roots dwindle somewhat from your partner, as they established new ones with someone else? Have you considered the amplification of hormones in a newly-established relationship? Were you complacent? If you were the adulterer, how did you let the connection build to this new man/woman? Do you remember when it no longer became easy to say no but became easy to say yes?

In regards to boundaries, one must understand that they must be proactive while they still have full access to their rational portion of their brain. This implies to plan ahead before any emotional weakness is imposed on them. Putting a relationship back together after an affair requires much discussion about boundaries, but also to ensure that partners are actively working to build and maintain the underlying connection. If disconnection breeds adultery, then connection (primary) can be seen to make adultery easy to mitigate.


1. Goleman, D. (1995). Emotional intelligence (1st ed., p. 43). New York: Bantam Books.
2. Cheour, M. (2016). Affair Recovery (1st ed.). Zenith Miami Counseling and Coaching Center.
3. Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.
 
#69 ·
Thank you for the responses thus far. Some of your thoughts highlight the reason for why this thread was created. My intentions are to enable individuals to make their decisions and be happier about them, regardless of what they are. If one wishes to dispute the information I present, I only ask that they include an explanation with a positive claim as to what "is" correct then.

Before I begin with the lesson, I would like to share that I will be interviewing a prominent Psychologist, specifically regarding infidelity. It will be posted here (audio) when I have completed the editing, perhaps in a week or so.

A.) Why individuals cheat (there will be future additions to the various aspects of the UAP, especially part A)

To understand what pre-empts this most traumatic instance (or series of), one must step into the mind (cognitive and emotional) of the distressed partner, not to say that only distressed partners seek extradyadic activity. In fact, one of the studies I will present today discusses surveyed reasonings and mindsets that foster adultery. So, for me to tell you to empathize with the unfaithful does not mean that you must feel for them, or that you are validating their behavior. Empathy is a basic component to Emotional Intelligence, something necessary for a successful life, at work and at home. What is empathy, then (1)?



To fail to empathize in this situation is analogous to not attempting to understand what cancer is and how it works. That said, one will be confronted with feelings and cognitions that are not necessarily commendable or resembling any reasonable amount of logic. But, the truth exists and it begs to be discovered so that workable solutions may be derived. In working with infidelity, one must look it as a symptom of the underlying relational dysfunction (2), that is, that disconnection, marital dissatisfaction and unmet relational needs are the reasons individuals fall prey to committing adulterous (extra-dyadic) behavior (additional contributions will be discussed, based on various published studies). Understanding this reality greatly enables individuals to heal from affairs, re-create a viable relationship, address the character flaws that allowed for adulterous behavior and to prevent any future infidelity. As such, an individual may impart great relational gains upon their relationship by understanding the various dynamics at play with infidelity.(3)



Let me finish today's addition by discussing boundaries, which will imply joint-responsibility for the "underlying relational dysfunction". Often, a young couple will seek out pre-marital counseling in an effort to ensure their long-term success is prepared for. Individuals may not clearly understand what they are getting into when they say "I do". Those that are still in the infatuation stage might take it for granted, not realizing that the rush of dopamine will soon end, leaving the actual relationship work in the hands of clear(er)-headed indviduals with different opinions. Boundaries tend to be under-established or over-established, depending on various factors related to backgrounds and the established power structure of the relationship. Understanding that we humans are fallible and tend to be more irrational than rational, it only makes sense that boundaries are established to police one another so that grievous mistakes aren't made. Too few boundaries leave potentially dangerous behavior to be viable. Too many boundaries might sabotage the relational connection, literally creating the basis for the desire to seek connection..... elsewhere. That explains the need for some type of pre-marital counseling so that boundaries are joint established, making them voluntary and the reason for the arrangement entirely voluntary.

Boundaries are necessary because individuals have weaknesses, and I am not different, regardless of what I know or how much I train my E-IQ. Individuals think that they will always have the ability to say yes or now with ease, not adequately planning for positive and negative emotional hijackings that drastically undermine this cause. When we confide (emotionally) with others, we form bonds with them. Think of this like the roots of a tree. When the roots of a bond are established, the activity of exploring the connection become rewarding, which encourages the thoughts and actions that back the behavior. One can be receptive to the roots of another individual, and vice-versa, even if the primary relationship is fundamentally healthy; That is where boundaries come in. Boundaries are self and jointly enforced, meaning that it requires a mindful approach to protect the relationship.

I don't blame the injured partner for the actions of their partner, but one should not be surprised due to the statistical realities of infidelity. Further, if we properly diagnose the symptoms to the relational dysfunction, then it implies that the relationship truly can be saved. If the assumed cause of the adultery was because "their spouse is just a bad person", then we leave no room for any forward movement to take place. That leads us to one prompt that we have for the injured partner, were you not enforcing the boundaries of the relationship, leaving your partners vulnerabilities to be exploited, assuming their self-enforcement mechanism failed? This could lead one to realize that their spouse might have had employment that imposed risks to their marriage, such as travel, work around members of the opposite sex, work with many single individuals, etc. There also could be instances where the spouse was often allowed to go off and do their own thing, like guy's or girl's night out. It is important to qualify what constitutes time spent away from the primary romantic partner. In that light, one should consider the opportunities that are not acted upon to maintain or build upon the primary connection. If one hangs out with their friends three times per week, then we are witnessing behavior that could impose risks of immediate adulterous behavior or long-term disconnection. Did your roots dwindle somewhat from your partner, as they established new ones with someone else? Have you considered the amplification of hormones in a newly-established relationship? Were you complacent? If you were the adulterer, how did you let the connection build to this new man/woman? Do you remember when it no longer became easy to say no but became easy to say yes?

In regards to boundaries, one must understand that they must be proactive while they still have full access to their rational portion of their brain. This implies to plan ahead before any emotional weakness is imposed on them. Putting a relationship back together after an affair requires much discussion about boundaries, but also to ensure that partners are actively working to build and maintain the underlying connection. If disconnection breeds adultery, then connection (primary) can be seen to make adultery easy to mitigate.


1. Goleman, D. (1995). Emotional intelligence (1st ed., p. 43). New York: Bantam Books.
2. Cheour, M. (2016). Affair Recovery (1st ed.). Zenith Miami Counseling and Coaching Center.
3. Peluso, P. R. (2007). Infidelity : A Practitioner’s Guide to Working with Couples in Crisis. New York: Routledge.
I agree that boundaries with the opposite sex are very important. These need to be agreed between the spouses. For example, one may be no eating out alone with a member of the opposite sex. No personal texts. No sharing of personal issues. No long car journeys alone together. No meetings at work behind closed doors. Etc etc.
Many people have no boundaries like this.
 
#97 · (Edited)
Today's addition to the UAP will discuss some statistics related to infidelity (B).

To catch up, here is the list of my posts, thus far.
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html


(B) Statistics.

50-65% are in therapy due to infidelity (1)

20-40% of couples experienced infidelity (3)

25% of couples therapy is initiated by an affair, with 30% more being revealed in therapy (4).

15% of couples incorporate swinging into their relationships (2)

78% of men denied ever sexually cheating (3)

88% of women denied ever sexually cheating (3)

90% of those that did have an affair justified it due to unhappiness (4). This speaks to permissive attitudes and not specifically causation. They also found that women were twice as likely to cheat due to marital dissatisfaction, meaning that they are more predictable than men are.

Men that cheated tended to be older, used more "substances" and were sexually dissatisfied in the primary relationship (5).

Disclosing the affair resulted in 57% of relationships surviving, in the context of college dating relationships (6). Hearing about it or discovering it for themselves creates more damage.

Attitudes and their relation to infidelity (7) (Strong/Weak/ or no correlation(prediction):

-Permissive attitude to extramarital sex (strong correlation to actual affairs)
-Extra-marital activity permissiveness, such as hanging out with individuals of opposite sex in somewhat of an emotional/inappropriate context(strong)
-Intention to cheat (Strong)
-Jealousy, those that cheated reported less jealousy regarding possibilities from their partner/flirtation(Weak)
-Sex to please one's partner, versus to please themselves (predicted Fidelity)

How were affairs revealed (7):
-38% in person
-38% or over the phone
-12% other/3rd party
-6% email
-6% text


1 Atkins, Baucom & Jacobson, (2001). Understanding infidelity: correlates in a national random sample.
2: Mcginley R. (1995). History of Swinging
3: Blow, A. & Hartnett, K. (2005). Infidelity in committed relationships II: A substantive review.
4: Glass, S. & Wright, T.L. (1992) Justifications for extramarital involvement: The association between attitudes, behaviors, and gender.
5: Atkins, D.C. (2003. Infidelity and marital therapy: Initial findings from a randomized clinical trial.
6: Afifi, et. al (2001). Identity concerns following a severe relational transgression: The role of discovery method for the relational outcomes of infidelity.
7: Walters, A., & Burger, B. (2013). 'I Love You, and I Cheated': Investigating Disclosures of Infidelity to Primary Romantic Partners. Sexuality & Culture
 
#99 ·
15% of couples incorporate swinging into their relationships (2)
2: Mcginley R. (1995). History of Swinging
15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.

McGinley is so biased. He's a failed engineer that lost his government clearance in the 1970's after "swinging' with some military wives. He's founder and president of the North American Swing Club Association, sort of a AAA for wife-swappers. He organizes the annual Lifestyles convention, now in its 28th year. He owns the successful Lifestyles Tours & Travel agency. And he runs one of the country's oldest sex clubs, Club WideWorld of Buena Park, Calif., which opened its doors, appropriately enough, in 1969.

So he proceeds to get what appears to be a mail order Ph.D. in Psychology at the unaccredited ONLINE Newport International University (that was owned by some guy in Hong Kong in the 1990's and early 2000's and even Kenya in 2005 declared the degrees obtained from the University are invalid - and then Robert writes a delusional book self serving book rationalizing and justifying his incredible immoral life and wayward mindset. I have no idea what the actual percentage is but knowing what I know about Mr. McGinley, it's safe to assume it's far less than 15%.

Our investigation shows that Newport University (aka Janus University) is not and never was an accredited institution in the US. Therefore their degrees are worthless. The latest developments and their European location do not change that. LINK

RT,

Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan". It could be an interesting conversation and there's probably much you can learn from many of the people here that have actually been married a long time and actually experienced infidelity. We might be able to really help you develop something that would truly be "The Ultimate Plan" instead of that nonsense you have posted on your website.
 
#101 ·
15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.

McGinley is so biased.
It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.

RT,

Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan".
I told everyone that they need to make POSITIVE claims if they wish to dispute what I have said. Everything I have said, thus far, is straight out of a clinician's guide to couples therapy for infidelity.

I am a relationship coach as stated in the opening post and as you can see in my signature. Be a good citizen scientist and address what was said. Ad hominem attacks will surely be ignored. Because you have said nothing, I can do nothing to affirm or counter your world view.
 
#104 ·
1. In every infidelity text I have ever read, the therapist (author) always calls "Infidelity" a symptom of the relational dysfunction. Individuals are unhappy and seek connection elsewhere. This is the reality.

2. We know "why" individuals cheat......because they say why. Understanding their reasons/excuses does NOT remove any responsibility from their shoulders.

3. We live in a world that is not inherently out to get us, nor is the world there to support us. Lack of boundaries = more affairs. The relationship is a form of property that we must nurture and defend from outside forces. Humans are not always rational, meaning that we have to act in accordance.

4. Explanations and facts do not impose any blame. Individuals that cheat have the same amount of blame on their shoulders, even if their partner did not nurture the relationship. This means that the betrayed owns RESPONSIBILITY for their part of the disconnection, NOT the affair.

5. The betrayed ALWAYS has work to do after an affair (on themselves).

6. The injuring partner tends to have much more work to do.

I have 100% confidence that if you read a book on infidelity, you would be presented this same information. Grab Dr. Marie Cheour's book on infidelity that I referenced earlier on.

7. I only have this perspective on infidelity due to being betrayed several times when I was in my 20's.

If you disagree with my posts, then please post what IS correct and provide sources.
 
#114 ·
I completely disagree that all cheated on spouses need to work on themselves. or that they bear any responsibility for the affair. I know several lovely people whose spouses cheated. Some of the cheaters even admitted that there was nothing wrong in their marriage that made them cheat. As one said 'The opportunity came up and I took it'

My husbands former wife found another man. I have been married to him for 12 years this year and he is the nicest man you could meet and a lovely husband.
Another lady I know (in my family) adored her husband so much and was a lovely caring wife. She ended up taking her own life after sinking into depression because of her husbands very long affair. Another member of my family had 2 wives who both cheated, one 4 times, he is the nicest most caring man you could meet.

Sorry but the fault is always with the cheater. Yes we can do a lot to make sure that the marriage is strong, and we ourselves can have good boundaries with the opposite sex, but in the end we cant stop the other spouse if their moral values and integrity are not there.Such people will cheat no matter how lovely their spouse is, and they will nearly always blame shift and try and justify what they have done.
 
#105 ·
I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.

I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.
 
#106 · (Edited)
Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".

I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly

Thanks, FSJ.



p.s. I was politely asked to expound upon my bio. See the introductory post.
 
#118 ·
The first MC my husband and I went to totally separated the cheating from the marriage, so you're not correct when you say that all counselors have the same views as you do. And the fact that most do have the same views as you doesn't mean a thing, except that they are all wrong. If more counselors empowered BS's to take charge of things and not act like whipped little puppies who are scared to do anything for fear their spouse will do it again, I think more BS's would end up in a happy place and not stuck married to a serial cheater. And the first thing that needs to happen is that the WS takes 100% full and total responsibility for what they did. By saying that the state of the marriage contributed to them cheating, that doesn't happen. If a counselor thinks they must do their due diligence and address the state of the marriage as well, then it should be done at a later time. Not right at first. And it has to be separated from the cheating, as it's own entity. NO one is perfect, so of course every BS has work to do on themselves. But to say that contributed to them being cheated on is crap.

I don't care if you refuse to listen to me just because I refuse to spend inordinate amounts of time surfing the web just to come up with a bunch of links that support my view. Anyone can do that for any view they want to. I have better things to do thanks :)
 
#120 ·
The first MC my husband and I went to totally separated the cheating from the marriage, so you're not correct when you say that all counselors have the same views as you do.
The symptomatic nature of affairs is supported by the community of experts researching infidelity. I am presenting what has been proven to work, not what I think makes sense.

Counselors will have different views! They can disagree with what the research I have provided, but they must do so in a scientific manner. We will be looking at a lot of Dr. Baucom & Dr. Worthington's research as time progresses. The community references them a lot.

And the fact that most do have the same views as you doesn't mean a thing, except that they are all wrong.
You are disputing the established research that is presented to the psychological community, based on what?

If more counselors empowered BS's to take charge of things and not act like whipped little puppies who are scared to do anything for fear their spouse will do it again, I think more BS's would end up in a happy place and not stuck married to a serial cheater.
That is nothing I have ever seen be advised. Expert advice entails discovering what led to the affair so that the injuring/unfaithful partner corrects the character flaws that led to the series of actions.

"What made you go to lunch with your co-worker and complain about your husband? That is very risky behavior and violates the marital boundaries."

And the first thing that needs to happen is that the WS takes 100% full and total responsibility for what they did.
Total agreement.

By saying that the state of the marriage contributed to them cheating, that doesn't happen.
I understand why you say this. I will work to add additional context for this particular concern.



If a counselor thinks they must do their due diligence and address the state of the marriage as well, then it should be done at a later time. Not right at first. And it has to be separated from the cheating, as it's own entity. NO one is perfect, so of course every BS has work to do on themselves. But to say that contributed to them being cheated on is crap.
My very next addition will address this concern. I can give a short answer now.

If I start to become disconnected in my relationship, then there can be the emotional impulse to seek connection elsewhere, or I may be receptive to the connection from a "predatory" female. I may be entirely unaware that I am susceptible to bonding with a female that shows interest in me (extra-dyadic). Being unaware, the connection to the predatory female may develop, meaning that a bond was formed, even if no clear intention existed before-hand. At this point it becomes rewarding (dopamine/feel-good hormones) to participate in the behavior. In this example, none of the blame is shouldered by the wife, not even the predatory female.

"But, why didn't you (in this example) just try to fix the primary (marital) relationship, then?"

Exactly!

"So, individuals are excused of cheating because they couldn't help it due to not being happy and seeking connection elsewhere?"

No. My relationship duties are to nurture the connection, enforce boundaries, but to also ensure that no bond is able to be formed with another woman. As sane boundaries are violated/unenforced, the risk for extra-marital behavior rises.

I don't care if you refuse to listen to me just because I refuse to spend inordinate amounts of time surfing the web just to come up with a bunch of links that support my view. Anyone can do that for any view they want to. I have better things to do thanks :)
I am asking individuals to provide sources for the information they provide. I have provided information from books and peer-reviewed research.

I did not start at my conclusion and support it with random sources. This thread is born out of Peluso's guide to infidelity. I am entirely interested in what the therapists and counselors are trained to do. That said, not all get specific training in infidelity. There will be differences in opinion, but we are all well-advised to look at the research published in scientific journals.

Please do contribute, Hope.
 
#119 · (Edited)
This post digs into probably the most talked about question on this forum: why do people cheat? Followed closely by the question: why do some people not divorce after infidelity? And I suspect that the answer to #1 directly relates to #2. I wish I knew the answers.

What I have learned in my adult life regarding cheating and reconciliation amongst my friends and family is this: it is much easier for a female who is dissatisfied and has decided to escape the bounds of marriage to find a willing male AP. Almost all of the WWs I know of always wore their weddings rings and freely admitted they were married. And most spoke favorably about their husbands - even while the A was ongoing.

The males who wanted to cheat were not nearly as successful. Most had to either hide their marital status or severely downplay their happiness. And the number of willing female partners were limited, especially if they already knew you were married.

And my own reason for not divorcing after infidelity occurred is situational to me. Ultimately my W would probably end up dead (for a multitude of reasons) if I divorced her and left her life permanently, and I just couldn't live with that guilt. She needs me for the positive influence, support, and stability even though her past track record was not good at times.

This is based solely on personal experience and personal interviews with about 40 adults, mostly military couples.
 
#121 ·
This post digs into probably the most talked about question on this forum: why do people cheat? Followed closely by the question: why do some people not divorce after infidelity? And I suspect that the answer to #1 directly relates to #2. I wish I knew the answers.
#1 is up next.

#2..... I know of some research that can probably shed some light on it. Additionally, some clinical reports may help to bolster the information provided.
 
#123 ·
Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html


Today's addition will discuss WHY individuals cheat. There will be more contributions to this subpart of the UAP. We will examine research published in the journal, Sexuality & Culture, titled "Understanding the Cheating Heart: What Determines Infidelity Intentions?"


A.) I would like to begin with a pretty explosive quote from this research. Remember, these are scientists that are working to understand behavior, not to cast judgment. Agreeing to what "should" or "should not" happen is unrealistic and often leads to an unfulfilling life. Instead, it is better to understand what does and does not happen and plan accordingly. Making full use of this information would imply that mate selection would be a more thorough process, involving an objective analysis of potential. Following mate selection, one would make better use of their emotional energy in the primary relationship, decreasing the chances of extradyadic behavior from their partner. A lot goes into nurturing the relational connection, and we can address that, in full, later. So, let's begin with our first quote (1).

there are a few works that suggest infidelity may have some positive effects. For instance, early work by Buunk and Van Driel (1989) reports that individuals who
were involved in extradyadic relations believe that such transgressions led to personal growth and increased self-esteem. Meanwhile, Jones and Burdette (1994)
report that individuals who engage in affairs often think that their primary relationship improved due to their unfaithfulness. Finally, as suggested by Dainton
and Gross (2008), for some individuals, engaging in infidelity may be perceived as a way to maintain a relationship by providing rewards not found in the primary relationship.
In this quote, we are not seeing the reports of individuals thinking that the affair saved their relationship, via finding a catalyst. Rather, we see evidence of men and women rationalizing their extradyadic behavior. Remember from previous posts that men are more likely to cheat out of sexual "needs not being met" and women are more likely to cheat out of lack of connection/dissatisfaction. Unfaithful men, often, report that "it's just sex", or that the primary relationship is only lacking sex, creating a need for sex-only cheating. In this mindset, the man feels that his behavior is justified, even beneficial. Think about it, if he didn't cheat, he would have to leave her, or so the logic goes. Women, on the other hand, do often succumb to infidelity out of being powerless in the primary relationship, or maybe just neglected of emotional needs. In this mindset, it is more about filling in a perceived gap, or flaw, with the attention of another man.

This research paper addresses many aspects of intentions, which I find to be somewhat of a quandary. It is my opinion that "intentions" are 99% of the problem at hand. Think about how many attempts are made to commit adultery, but the individual was rejected. There was that recent blow-up of that website promising individuals a guaranteed affair until it was hacked, exposing a list of the adulterous (mostly) men and (some) women. There were many radio shows getting reports of wives having been told by the husband that they signed up, but didn't do anything as if that was no problem. Many of you are challenging me pretty hard on the topic of blame and responsibility. Again, in a few weeks of posts, most of the context will explain why I have to say these things (logical consistency). As such, we can say that the intention to cheat is almost all of the way there, implying the same need for work on the relationship and hefty work on the one with the goal of adultery in mind. The ability to cheat, with ease, does determine (predictively) cheating, being a strong correlate.

(1)

Intentions are indicators of the degree to which an individual is willing to try and how much effort he/she is willing to make in order to perform a particular behaviour and are thus viewed as the best antecedent of actual behaviour
The problem with infidelity is that it isn't as simple as one lusting after his secretary, consciously choosing to put his marriage certificate in the shredder and jump in the sack. In the introductory post, I hinted at other realities "I tripped" and "A cry for help", meaning that a lot of the time men are completely unprepared to turn down a predatory woman, and women sometimes cheat as a cry for help - to save the primary relationship. Boundaries and Emotional Intelligence are going to be key themes in understanding what went wrong and how to ensure cheating doesn't happen again. As such, it is understandable that individuals can look at this to understand whether their current relationship is at risk for extradyadic behavior. With statistically significant correlates, we can predict infidelity when looking at a wide enough sample of individuals.

The researchers go on, presenting three hypotheses (1)

H1: Individuals with favourable attitudes towards infidelity will have a greater intent to be unfaithful.
H2: Individuals with a social network that supports or condones infidelity will have greater infidelity intentions.
H3: Individuals who think that it is easy for them to cheat will have higher infidelity intentions.
This will help us understand the attitude towards infidelity. We will then present information that explains how attitudes imply intentions and thus creates behavioral demand. We will conclude tonight's addition by using analogies given to us by an understanding of Economics. To understand behavior, we need look no further than how individuals spend their money. We have opportunity cost, subjective value, and individually rational behavior. Why does the individual run to the Chevrolet dealer and buy a Z/28 Camaro, eagerly handing over the money? That is easy to answer, that's because the individual values the car more than the money, assuming that the car will bring more satisfaction than having the cash and continuing to hold onto it. It makes sense to him; it feels good and he is rewarded with dopamine. We also have to understand that some of the subjective value placed on the Camaro comes from society, in general. That is, he desires the car that will make him appear cool in public. An uncool car will be subjectively less valuable. The same factors are at play for those considering infidelity. One might have a lot of friends or acquaintances with positive experiences with infidelity. This adds subjective value to cheating, whereas having many very religious friends would likely deduct much subjective value, due to anticipation of judgment and feelings of guilt. They may also be encouraged to cheat, as the wife isn't holding up her end, or so it may be claimed. Looking at the three hypothesis, one may infer that there are a lot of potential warning signs that we can look for in mate selection.


I will contribute more this weekend. TBC




1: Jackman, M. (2015). Understanding the Cheating Heart: What Determines Infidelity Intentions?. Sexuality & Culture, 19(1), 72-84. doi:10.1007/s12119-014-9248-z
 
#124 ·
Catch up on the UAP
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17252601-post1.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17266018-post68.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17290106-post97.html
http://talkaboutmarriage.com/17307922-post123.html

Continued from the previous post (123)

This research article discussed findings from dozens of other published research articles but also included a clinical survey of 512 individuals. Like any group of individuals, there is a lot we can learn from them, but we cannot extrapolate into other factors that weren't well-represented. This particular sample included mostly young, but well-educated individuals. They determined what factors were statistically significant (strong positive correlation with infidelity) based upon attitude, subjective norms (their environment/friends), and behavioral control, which involved perceived ease of being able to cheat.(1)

Summing up, this paper suggests that greater infidelity intentions can be found among individuals who:
• Have favorable attitudes towards infidelity
• Display high levels of self-efficacy
• Have a social network who would support their infidelity
• Report lower levels of religiosity
• Had been unfaithful in the past
• To their knowledge, have never been cheated on, and;
• Are male
Of those studied, 67% have been cheated on and 58% have cheated. Now I would be doing a poor job to not jump to the 5th bulleted conclusion. Does that not give credence to the "once a cheater, always a cheater" mantra? In terms of statistics across a sizeable sample, it would be something that one would be silly to not pay attention to, at minimum. That said, statistics only apply to those ........ that they apply to. If we use 10 factors to predict behavior, and we get a 90% success rate (think of Gottman's divorce prediction rates), then we can be relatively confident. What happens, then, if we use only 9 factors? The success rate would drop, implying that there are exceptions to the rule (once=always). Because of this, we can create some "exceptions" to look for to determine if someone has truly changed, or, perhaps, we can select the strongest correlates to test for. This would prove valuable to an injured (cheated-on) spouse or for an individual that is considering dating someone that they know cheated in the past. That particular development would be slated for a later date.

What I want to finish discussing about this paper is the nature of attitude towards infidelity, and a lot of this will flow well from my Economics analogy in the previous post. Keep in mind though, I am not here to make a claim that individuals have never cheated just because they are "less attractive" or because they fear punishment from others; I am not here to judge anyone, just to discuss statistics and the realities behind infidelity.

I find religion to be one of the more interesting factors here. There is no particular reason why religion should give anyone internalized morality that school or parents can't give, but the stats show, that across the sample, it has. Those that regularly attend and participate in church get wonderful lessons for life, and these are lessons that can be given anywhere, as long as we remove the religious context. If an individual grew up in an environment that had no negative light cast upon infidelity, then the only thing that exist may be decisions made in the moment. One has to learn right/wrong from somewhere and they don't pick it up from the glamorization that Hollywood casts on infidelity. A strong support structure from parents and close friends could easily fill the gap that religion occupies, per these statistics. But what about the subjective norms that correlate with infidelity, then?

I can tell you that I was often in environments that had many traditionally masculine males. Cheating was not denigrated, but promoted (at times). Because of this, many individuals feel that it isn't such a bad thing, almost as if there is no consequence to it. Even so, it is still one's responsibility to agree or disagree with the information they are presented with. Peer pressure and "subjective norms" may make something more palatable, but the same consequences exist for this poor behavior. We may get into a discussion of what biology would explain why individuals are so prone to cheating, but the idea is quite simple. Our species is programmed to pass on our DNA, meaning that individuals act in certain ways that tend to meet that end. A man is more prone to sexual promiscuity because it spreads makes more copies of his genes. A woman is less prone because she has to raise the children, meaning that she is more programmed to look for a high-quality male that can provide for her and stay around. There are many nuances to this narrative, however.

This particular research addressed attitudes and intention, but we still need to dive into why individuals agree to enter a committed relationship and break that promise. Are there not new subjective norms when a man leaves college, gets a good job and finds a good gal to marry? Does this not replace or compete with the supposed predispositions to cheating that he may have had?

One last note on the predisposition to cheat due to having cheated in the past. If you paid attention, those that were cheated on were less likely to cheat, and the authors explain that much of this was due to the incredible pain that the experience brought on them; they became scarred. It can also be that individuals that were cheated on are more sympathetic to others, regarding this particular notion, meaning that they wouldn't dare inflict on someone else the pain that they went through. It can also be an eye-opening experience for some. Think about it, infidelity may seem harmless, to some, until they experience it for themselves on the receiving end. What I would like to find out is why individuals continue to cheat, from a research-backed standpoint. My hypothesis is that they were likely not held accountable for what they did, leaving their attitudes and intentions in place. This is why the repair and reconciliation process is so critical. Reconciliation isn't a "turn-the-cheek" kind of forgiveness, but a new process of effort and data-gathering in an effort to determine the long-term viability of the primary relationship.

This is why the element of forgiveness is so critical to the UAP. Forgiveness is so misunderstood by society, so it is no wonder we are in such trouble. The real process of forgiveness requires a real apology, otherwise, there is nothing to forgive. I absolutely advocate for forgiveness (especially for victims), but it requires a brutally strict process on the part of the relationship criminal. Forgiveness is the next post in the UAP, but let me end this by saying something critical about it. If one was cheated on and only received an "It'll never happen again", then one does not continue in the relationship, generally. We use my 3-phase plan to bring about change, maximizing the chances that the relationship criminal will make positive change.

1: Jackman, M. (2015). Understanding the Cheating Heart: What Determines Infidelity Intentions?. Sexuality & Culture, 19(1), 72-84. doi:10.1007/s12119-014-9248-z
 
#135 ·
There's truth in the above about a person even with strong morals and healthy boundaries crossing paths with the "right" (or actually wrong) individual. I'm absolutely convinced if my WW's particular OM never came into her sphere we would not have had to take the trip down the road of infidelity. People on here always say, "if it hadn't of been him, it would have been someone else". Many cases that may be true, but in my case, this bastard OM just had my wife's number.
 
#140 ·
If a man running roughshod over a woman in a marriage is so prevalent, why is NMMNG recommended to nearly every male poster that sets foot in this site?
@farsidejunky

Remember, this site attracts a certain type of man, usually men who feel victimized by women. So while NMMNG might be a helpful read for these men, it may not fit other men.

It is like a board for men having gluten issues. Those men need specific advice for dealing with it. But if the majority of men do not suffer from it, they likely have no need for that advice.
 
#141 ·
If a man running roughshod over a woman in a marriage is so prevalent, why is NMMNG recommended to nearly every male poster that sets foot in this site?

@farsidejunky

Remember, this site attracts a certain type of man, usually men who feel victimized by women. So while NMMNG might be a helpful read for these men, it may not fit other men.

It is like a board for men having gluten issues. Those men need specific advice for dealing with it. But if the majority of men do not suffer from it, they likely have no need for that advice.
So, following that same logic, should I also point out to @turnera that this site only attract certain types of women, and tell her she's wrong as well?

And just what is that certain type of woman that this site attracts?
 
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