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A Personal Epiphany

6K views 56 replies 10 participants last post by  AFEH 
#1 ·
Greetings all,

As you may remember, we're in the reconciliation process. And, we're doing well. We continue to navigate uncharted water in terms of off-limit subjects (that are now routinely discussable) and overall non-hijacked communication.

AFEH speaks often of passive aggression. I've known for a long time that I get a certain amount of pleasure from the suffering of perceived enemies. The German term for this is schadenfreude. Yet, I didn't realize how deep this passive aggression can run... and what sort of acting out results from it.

Then I read MEM's post about the "yes man hubby" who for 18 years was "perfect" for his wife. We all know the profile now. Goes to work everyday. Good father. Sexless marriage. Basically dominated by his wife - dotes on her.

One day, she looks out the window and here he comes on his brand new motorcycle, decked out in leather, a couple of tattoos and a hard-looking biker ***** on the rumble seat.

He flips his wife the bird and hits the road.

She "never knew what happened".

When I read that post, I realized MEM was describing me in my first marriage. Since we don't change all that much without effort, I started looking at myself a bit harder in that area.

Most - if not all - of the angry outbursts I initiate are with someone close to me who I perceive has "taken advantage".

But, realize this, we're talking about one transaction at a time.

I've had the tendency to extend myself, extend myself, and further extend myself to get the "desired outcome" in relationships. Pretty soon, it's unrecognizable in form and I'm basically miserable - and hopping mad.

This is a really interesting type of thing to study in yourself. It becomes "easy" to start saying no where the answer was always "yes' before - because you you realize the ultimate price to be paid by communicating an endless array of yes's.

Believe me, the person asking does NOT want me to take the ball all the way to the one-yard line by myself. Because, at that point the reciprocity I'm hoping for must materialize or the middle finger gets twitchy - if you know what I mean.



 
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#5 ·
Invoke his name and the genie appears.

Turns out there are amplifiers and reducers in this dynamic.

The amplifiers come from being with someone who rapidly and crazily escalates conflict. Because that dynamic looks something like this.
BPD: Does something that is offensive but not gigantic in magnitude
PA: Quietly thinks - I don't like this - and I also do not want WW3 right now. Grits their teeth and says nothing.

Cycle repeats until PA is so angry that they don't care what reaction they get.
 
#9 ·
MEM,

One last thing.

"PA doesn't care about the reaction he gets"

Damn skippy.

The meanest ugliest fights escalate way out of control once that self-governance goes out the window.

We all know where each other are vulnerable. With the right stimulus, we're capable of laying those soft places bare and ripping them with our teeth.



 
#28 ·
We all know where each other are vulnerable. With the right stimulus, we're capable of laying those soft places bare and ripping them with our teeth.
Not all know Conrad. Not all. I never ever once thought of where my wife might be vulnerable so I can use it to hurt. Not once did I do that. I say not once because of the 4 decades we were together. But. One time it suddenly jumped into my head just how exceptionally important it was for my wife to be thought of as a “nice person”. And I said to her something like “You are not a nice person”. And it hurt her. That and one other time are the only times I ever deliberately and consciously hurt my wife.

Since we’ve been separated I’ve deliberately hurt her a few times when she’s reached out to me. In a way I have become her. It’s that Victim Triangle thing. To get off of it the Rescuer becomes the Persecutor. And that’s exactly what happened.

That’s what I mean by the different psyches. As soon as I realised my wife was deliberately and consciously hurting me, that it was well thought out and premeditated that was just one more reason to close my marriage down. And I’ve kept it closed down. If she reaches out to me at all, and she has, I shut her down. Even though I’m still somewhat in love with her and even though she is the mother of my two sons and she brought a lot of joy and happiness. That’s what happens Conrad.


But there’s something else. I think PAs become paranoid and deluded. Because PAs deliberately hurt other people (and most especially those like me that love them) they think other people, yes, those like me that love them, deliberately hurt them as well. So they become paranoid. And just like AO says my wife made things up to hurt me. You cannot believe (or maybe you will) the things she made up to hurt me. So they REINVENT HISTORY and they drag some supposed made up offence from years or decades back and throw it at you. And in that way you feel as though you are being persecuted.

But then they forget what was real and what they made up about their history, our history and so they are deluded. And when you try and talk with them about history you feel you are going mad because you cannot recognise what it is they are saying.
 
#13 ·
I always wished you posted a response to my thread "What would your spouse say about you" or in your case, your ex. I think if you were able to understand the other side if you will, you could learn a lot about yourself. The anger would subside and real change would be made.
I asked my husband what he thought about me and it was eye opening. I have often believed I somehow got screwed but the reality is, I contributed to it but instead I pointed my finger at him as the sole cause. Gently here, I think you have a similar tendency. AFEH, I think you do as well. Again very gently here as I was/am in the same boat. It is somewhat cathartic to look within and see the things I need to change. If my marriage doesn't work out, at least I have a pretty clear idea of myself.
Feel free to flip me that twitchy finger. :eek:
 
#15 ·
Conrad:

I think I know exactly what you are saying. For years you did everything that you thought you should to get love and respect from your wife. But you were being the martyr and victim, and people cannot do that for very long without exploding.

Now you know that you should communicate your needs. Call her out when she does something that offends you. Work together to solve problems rather than do everything yourself.
 
#29 ·
Bob,

I never wanted to be a PA.

Yet, my verbal and written communication skills are such that I simply blow people away with the vocabulary and the concise wording. Very easy for them to get intimidated and withdraw.

So, I would chase. I wanted the same approval from them I got in my boyhood home - and you get that through capability and achievement.

The more you chase, the more elusive the reward(s). So, you learn not to demand things from others. You become self-sufficient and - of course - others learn they can lean on you and take your work and help without cost.

But, inside... each time you give "more", the calculator starts to run. By the time you move to the 30 - 20 - 10 yard line, you start to look around at the other person to see if they're doing ANYTHING.... all too often, they aren't reciprocating and you begin to see betrayal.

Then the day comes when they cross "the line".

Woe be unto them.
 
#20 ·
Bob,
From your descriptions your W was PA Plus she had a lot of other issues.
PA behavior patterns range from mild to severe. The guy who goes a decade and then walks away is at the high end.
I sometimes don't address stuff right away and subsequently react too harshly.
Mild case of PA.


OTE=AFEH;433036]Conrad. Why are you a PA? If it’s not for public consumption PM me. I want to know. If you don’t know why tell me if you want to. Also tell me if you do not want to be a PA.[/QUOTE]
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#25 ·
Bob,
From your descriptions your W was PA Plus she had a lot of other issues.
PA behavior patterns range from mild to severe. The guy who goes a decade and then walks away is at the high end.
I sometimes don't address stuff right away and subsequently react too harshly.
Mild case of PA.
Posted via Mobile Device[/QUOTE]

MEM, I think we can all do a bit of PA. I guess the opposite is Active Aggression? Like loss of temper? Never saw my wife lose her temper in 40 years. I saw her get frustrated and annoyed just a few times.

Both PA and AA exist. And Anger is there for a very good and natural reason, one of the base emotions. I don’t like either type of anger but I think give me AA because then I know what I’m dealing with and I can decide what to do based on that. It took forever to wake up to and become aware of what I was dealing with with my wife. Love is blind and all that. Strangely, a few good women friends (well married, no weird motivations that I can see) have pointed it out to me since I’ve been separated. They saw what I was unable to see.
 
#21 ·
I don't know. I don't think you were PA, so to speak.

A PA will hold it in, and be the martyr. Always holding it in. But....they WILL punish. And it's never an outburst it's way more subtle. Way more devious. Trust me. I was there.

Wife would complain. I would get angry. Wife would deny. I would get more angry. But I never ever lashed out. I was too scared too. What if she got really angry at me? God forbid she went through a period of disapproval! I was the nice guy! I understood her. It was my place! I was being the nice guy. The supportive husband.

But make absolutely NO mistake! No outburst ever went unpunished. This is where the passive comes in. I would shut down. Not talk to her. I was even an expert at ridicule. The type of ridicule that would leave you guessing.....is that really ridicule or am I imagining or misinterpreting things? It's a fkn art form. A very very evil art form. And I was a master!

It's passive. Because it's not direct. And it's safe. Because it's so convoluted there is no way for the recipient to feel 100 percent justified in blaming you for anything directly for the punishment you just doled out. It's subtle. It's so evilly subtle. It totally ***s with the mind of the recipient. Which is why it's aggressive.

pAs will take it and take it. All that negativity from thier spouse. And never directly lash out. And we remember every single bad thing you did to us. And we can even make up more bad stuff that we imagined you did to us. And the punishment is the worst form if emotional abuse. And the great part of it is that you don't even know it's emotional abuse until you feel stressed out and worth down and have ulcers.

It is sociopathic. But we are not true sociopaths. We are just Fkd up in the head.

And yes, Conrad. That one simple word....NO. It's such an easy cure for PA behavior it's amazing.
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#24 · (Edited)
AO, I thank you from the bottom of my heart for posting this. You greatly helped me in a few PMs but this help goes way beyond that. You have just described to me exactly how I’d imagined and concluded my stbxw’s psyche (her mind, her deepest thoughts, feelings, values and beliefs systems) works. It is so opposite to how my psyche works that I’m really surprised I got to that understanding. But now you have verified and validated it. Thank you so very much for that.

The really strange thing is, I am that big minded, broad and deep, and I had so very much love for her that all she needed to do was tell me what was going on inside of her and I would have forgiven her and helped her to a better place. They just don’t know that and the more you try and teach them the more entrenched in their psyche they become.

I am so glad for you OA that you have your self awareness. I think you are truly blessed with that self awareness because it will help you on your journey. But how did you become aware and how on earth did you get the courage to post what you posted. Bless you. Big time blessings to you OA. You are a Man of Courage and Integrity.
 
#33 ·
MEM I would like to see anybody hold onto their anger when standing in front of a PA they are deeply in love with while they are doing their PA business. I got so I feared my wife with her PA stuff. At the very end it really was fight (fists) or flee. I’ve never hit a woman in my life and I wasn’t about to start then.
 
#34 ·
Conrad ~

Very nice. I have learned more about you in this thread than in any others combined. :)

I just want to share a personal experience with you for you to think about.

I have always been what we see referred to here as a "words of affirmation" person. I have always my entire life wanted people to verbalize and show me that they appreciated me - things that I did for them, things that I accomplished. Maybe that desire is there because I never actually got those kinds of things growing up - there was just this expectation that I would 'tow the line' and do all of the things that I should. As a result, I became something of an over-achiever (primarily academically) when I was younger.

Anyway, it has taken me quite some time to get to the point to realize that I cannot validate myself based upon what others do or say or do not do or do not say to me based upon my actions or accomplishments. What does matter is that I validate MYSELF by knowing, believing, and living my life in a manner that exemplifies that. I give myself that validation. Once I got to the following place of understanding, it was very freeing:

"It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere." ~Agnes Repplier

Of course, if any one ever wants to throw some spare appreciation my way, I will glady catch it. :)

But, after this realization, I have come to be a lot more appreciative of others. We all are inter-connected and seemingly the smallest things can have a great impact in another's life. So, I want you to know that I appreciate your contributions here. :)

Wishing you all the best.
 
#36 ·
“No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bells tolls; it tolls for thee."



Yes we are all interconnected and that is why I totally disagree with "It is not easy to find happiness in ourselves, and it is not possible to find it elsewhere." ~Agnes Repplier.

There are many things that can make me feel happy and bring a smile to my face. I watched a young lad and his little dog running along the beach and in the water this afternoon their antics made me chuckle out loud as it did the people around, it was contagious. And are you going to tell me a smile from a little baby is not going to make you feel warm and happy inside of you and bring a smile to your face. And what about the very special well thought out birthday present, don’t those things bring joy and happiness into you?

Of course other people are our happiness! Of course they are. What about those father’s day cards with those very special words inside. And we can also bring joy and happiness to ourselves. I’ve got back into gardening and as I go on my walks I’m taking cuttings of plants I see and like. I’ve been doing this for about 5 months and now my back balcony is full of leaves and flowers from the plants grown from the cuttings. I’m still in awe of that stuff and every time I look at them I feel happy.

And if other people can bring us joy and happiness they sure as heck can bring us the opposite, sadness and sometimes anger and despair and a lot of pain.
 
#38 ·
I think sometimes we can drown ourselves in pain rather than understand it, where it came from and why we feel it and work our way through it.

We let go of the pain by forgiving the person who caused it.

But I don’t think we get to choose to feel it or not. Take the death of a son or daughter. Do the parents get to feel their pain, or not? I don’t think they get to choose. They are going to feel very deep pain and will more than likely be traumatised. And that pain will in some way or another stay with them until the day they die themselves.

But we do get to choose as to whether we put ourselves up for the same pain again. With my PA wife I got some deep pain. But I always worked my way through it and forgave her and I always tried to teach her better ways. Mr Codependent me. But then I discovered boundaries and I put them up like a nuclear bunker so she never got to do the same thing again. I made myself invulnerable to her antics but even then she tried to blast away my new found boundaries. That’s when I knew it was over and for all intents and purposes aside from the divorce ejected her from my life.
 
#39 ·
It’s funny in some ways. My wife and I really did separate over a clash of our Golden Rules.

I have the Golden Rule: ALWAYS FORGIVE. My wife has the opposite Golden Rule: NEVER EVER FORGIVE. I knew that as soon as I put up my boundaries and she tried to trash them. She was totally and utterly intransigent and so was I. There was going to be no compromise whatsoever.

My understanding is that the vast majority of marriages fail due a clash of Golden Rules and Golden Values.
 
#42 ·
My shadow? Sure, I guess. It was a very dark shadow indeed.

That's why I think my wife's EA and possibly Physicsl Affair was the best thing that happened to me.

Sure, it sucked. But I never would have the state of mind for inner reflection because of it.

It's strange, really. Or perhaps rather obvious. All my relationships in my life ended the same way. Cheating. When i was younger, though, I would just dump my girlfriend. But then, after marriage, with just a repeat of my previous experiences, I started to think that it wasn't the woman I was with. It was me. And how so correct I was.

After that realization, you kinda gotta figure you need to change.
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#45 · (Edited)
You hone, polish and perfect your passive aggressive skills because that’s what you want to do! It has nothing to do with your wife, that “She made me do it!”. Every time you carry out a passive aggressive attack it’s because that is what you want to do. You sit down and plan on ways of causing your wife a great deal of pain and then you actually carry it out. And you are the one calling your wife a control freak paranoid with overtones of psychopathic tendencies. And justify it all by calling it a defence. Amazing.

Be careful RLD. In my experience it gets a great deal worse with age, I see it in my wife’s family. It’s terrible stuff.

Of course you could always take the high road like AO and actually be Noble. But that's not want you want to do is it. Even though you have that choice.
 
#44 ·
Conrad,

Are you truly PA to some extent, or maybe it just takes you onger to realize someone just mind fkd you? THEN you would lash out.

There is a big difference. And the recognition of your response to the 'slight' you recievd just comes with practice. Usually, we expect the best from everyone in our life, so when someone psses us off, it takes a while to register.
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#52 ·
As I read this, I don't think I'm truly PA.

I give 'em quite a bit of rope - and figure that I'm able to fix things that are missing.

But, I really like MEM's football field analogy. If I stay around the 50 or 40 yard line (in terms of giving), I'm aok.

If I move to the 25 or the 20..? It better be really important to me. And, the ante increases for a positive response from the other side.

What I'm realizing is that I need to confirm the sincerity of the other side sooner - rather than assuming they'll just automatically respond to my "glorious" vision.
 
#56 ·
Passive aggression is great because you can achieve the desired outcome WITHOUT technically doing anything wrong. All the aggression is communicated via indirect methods and inference. I have always looked at it like a skill, rather than a bad quality about yourself. The thing is, to really use this skill correctly, you need to pick and choose when to use it. Don't just whip it out at every opportunity (thus borking your marriage, etc), use it selectively. That way, you don't hurt the people around you, you still get what you want, and you don't fk up your marriage. Save it for important things such as bartering with the sales guy for something you want, or at work (especially if you work in a high-powered business environment - it works great there).
 
#57 ·
To be on the receiving end, PA feels like one of the most evil things on the planet. But I'm sure there're a lot worse things. Just hope no one finds you out and takes their revenge out on you. And there a lot better and more honourable ways to get what you want out of life.
 
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