LVS

Hello uptown

I need your advice
he wants to make a meeting with my 3 kids within half an hour
if you can advice me please before the meeting
I hope you read my msg now

LVS

I know it's not a game but I am proud of everything I said and the confidence I had

uptown, after I read your reply the words that you said to me filled me with confidence
turnera i didn't read your last post until the meeting was done but the fear that you had kept my guards on and gave me the perfect idea
Since I know in California it's against the law to record the conversation without the knowledge of the two persons so I asked him and he said yes I want that more than you do. In my inside I was so happy because what he is going to say will be recorded and even if it is in our language it is acknowledging all his violence and mistreatment in our life so maybe I will needed it later

He started the meeting saying so many things happened in my life since we got married the reason you mom took me was bc I was a funny a smart and a happy person
but a big incident happened to me after the first year of marriage I can't talk about it and affected my life and turned me to a different person I said how you mention in front of your kids this incident and you don't want to talk about it he said you know I can't
I said yes you should say it bc like that you are pointing the blame back on me and you know It wasn't my fault he said no I know it wasn't yours and instead of mistreating my father I have mistreated you and so many other things happened that affected me more and more I was horrible with your mom and with all of you I did so many wrong things and your mom was so patient with me
until she couldn't anymore and when in the meeting with her brother she said it's enough we need to be in separate houses it was like a shock for me like a strong slap on my face (he looked at me and said) I don't want to lose you

Two words your brother said made this big change in me
I said what was the 2 words he said “IT WASN'T YOU” who does these horrible things it's another person who is not me so I thought he is right it's not me I am not like that why I became like that I need to be back me (he found a way to blame someone else not the real him lol)
here I interrupted him and I said
No, it is you. The bad person and the good person are you. The incident was not the reason you changed you were like that and what happened made you show the hidden side of you
Here I mentioned things I know about him I said when you were child you spent 2 years not talking a word to your cousin who lives with you in the same house why? He looked at his kids and said bc so much things happened when I was child and you don't know my father was treating me the same way I was treating your oldest brother
I wasn't happy as a child all my life I had to suffer
I said yes that's what I am saying I looked at my kids and said your father was so bright he excelled at school he was talented but his father neglected him so much and treated him badly and I mentioned few things affected his life as a child and young man and I said that's why it wasn't about what happened a year after our marriage. You were like that and it is not that incident that turned your life each incident was going to happen to us was going to turn you more and more bc you are a negative person and always see only the empty part of a full glass (I mentioned few incidents happened before this big incident and he was putting the blame on me and cursing and driving in crazy way)....

... I said it's the first time you talk in front of our kids this way they will be happy and think you really changed but for me I don't remember how many times each year for 28 years I heard the same words in different context
I believe you now as I always do you are saying the truth you are honest you want to make it up for me
you want to change but you can't change and now you didn't change the way you think you did bc you still didn't heal of what was hurting your life and even now you are still putting the blame on all circumstances on your father on everything around you but not on you. Let me tell you one thing I lived the same with my father in different way maybe I had horrible times in my life I got hurt from you and from your family but I never treated you or our kids like you did!!!! and I never blamed anybody else for my mistakes

My 22 year daughter said mom you were affected in different way I said yes but I didn't become abuser
look to all people you know in our neighborhood did you ever heard a man screaming other than your father they said no I said so you think we have problems more than they do thy said no I said nobody was dealing with his problems like your father did

My little son said but you should not talk to him to make him angry and you should help him to change (my son will become people pleaser if he won't get help)
I said your dad said it wasn't me it was the life he was living that made him become like that so it wasn't me right? My H said yes
and I said I can't help him he needs to help himsel
....My 22 year said I can see what my father said is very different than any other time and I can see this is a big change in him to acknowledge he was wrong in all his life with you and us and give you the right and said that he made you suffer a lot and that you sacrificed all your life with him and you helped us to become self confident and strong people to face life the way we do ….
So I think this is a positive thing and you should give him a chance
I said he took all his chances I gave him my last chance when I said he has 6 months trial and I warned him about the papers that I can with them file for divorce
But he did what he did after that and was more horrible than he ever did in all our life so I have no more chances the only chance I can give is by attending therapy but from separate houses
than my 22 years old defended my point and said you can't blame her after all what she lived
he said no of course
Than my daughter said with all that being said I feel so happy I can picture us as a happy family all together I feel my dad deserve you give him a chance
I said I will but from separate houses
what you are picturing now I was dreaming of it all my life and every time he was saying those words I use to picture what you are picturing now but every time he was knocking all my dreams down
he said you are right I did I was horrible person with you
you don't want me to make up for the past?
I said nothing will make up for the past life
I can't bring back my young days not my little children age
I don't want you to make up for me I forgive you but I can't forget
I said all I want now is to live my days day by day happily he said this is what I want to do I said that's why I ask you to leave bc I want to have hope for that but with you staying I guaranty nothing will change

He looked to my kids and said let me tell you why I can't be in separate house
1the most important I love your mother
2 I can't live without you
3 not enough money

I said can I answer here he said yes I said
1 if I can solve the problem of money so this we can remove it
2 you won't live without the kids you will be everyday with them and talking to them we can live in apartment close to each other so you will see them everyday but you won't be all the time with them so it will be less stressing on you right
3 you said you love me Yes you love me as you understand love but not as love should be
love should be unconditional and love should be for the best of the other and to fulfill your beloved needs
not to see what the other person can give you and blame the other person for everything
how did you show your love to me? What did you do to fill my needs?
He said didn't I do anything for you?
I said yes you brought me clothes and food and you took care of my health what about my other needs tell me did I ever disrespected you or anyone of your family did I ever hurt you but you did all to me
so the love that you call love is not how it should be
than he looked at his kids and said there is one more reason not allowing me to leave and I didn't want to talk about it but now I have to
I have blood pressure I am at risk to have heart attack or stroke at anytime
and for sure if I lived alone this risk will increase

I said why you are saying so?
you said you changed and you are going to see psychologist so this should give you hope for better life and because you changed as you said so you should see the bright side
he said I can't do that if I am away

Than my 17 year old daughter said what you said relieved me from a lot of stress
you are willing to see counselor right? he said yes she said why you don't wait to see what the counselor will say? if the counselor said you stay in one house than my mom you should be open to this solution and if he/she said you should live in separated houses dad you should admit that for the best of your relationship
than he said of course if they do that than I will be feeling better bc I can tell everyone that the doctor said that but now if I leave everyone will think we are fighting and for that I left
I said why we have to care about what the others think it's our life what we see the best to be done we should do it without thinking about the others

My kids are happy bc it's the first time he admit he did something wrong this is the first time he give me right and good image in front of them
I am happy for having this conversation in front of the kids to clear so many things my 17 years old daughter was doing very well my 22 years old daughter was talking in a rational way most the time defending me
my little son trying to understand what is going on

The reason I am happy bc my kids saw that I wasn't wrong as sometimes they use to think bc of his way of treating me and putting the blame on me
Having everything recorded is very important for me

turnera

Wow. I am SO impressed. I NEVER would have thought of recording it. Very good.

I'm so proud of you. I was so afraid that you wouldn't be able to look at them all and see them pleading with you to keep him without crumbling. You're even stronger than I thought!

Couple of things. First, you HAVE to talk to this counselor you're both going to see BEFORE the meeting. You HAVE to explain to him/her the traits he has been displaying and point out that he is VERY good at looking like a perfect person when he has to. The counselor will understand what that means.

Also, do NOT agree that if the counselor says you should stay together, you will stay together. That is YOUR decision. NOT a counselor's.

Finally, his reasons for not leaving are pure hogwash - ESPECIALLY the high blood pressure. Oh PULLEAZE! Give me a break.

In Why Does He Do That?, you'd see all the things he said, even the 'I have bad health so you HAVE to take care of me' trick.

Now, is your husband capable of changing? Of course he is.

Should you give him a chance, if you still love him? Definitely.

But in all my years, I have only seen ONE man actually change and get better while still living in his home. Why? Because once the dust has settled, and he knows you caved to let him stay, the game shifts again. Back to HIS control. If he is outside the home, having to do the work to get back IN the home, he will/may actually do the work. If he stays in the home, he will just go back to the manipulations he's used in the past to beat you back down - the looks, the tsk-tsks, the shaking the head as in disgust, the silent treatment, the 'forgetting' what you wanted, the ignoring...all the little, inconsequential, hard-to-explain things he does that, if you told someone else about them, they'd say 'you're upset at him because he sighed at you?!' like you are crazy. And you'd be right back down that road, believing him, NOT believing yourself, losing yourself.

lvs, you NEED time alone. You've spent all this time being HIS wife, THEIR mother, your parents' child...you have the RIGHT to find out who YOU are. And I honestly don't see how you can do that, with him in the house.

You're in the US? Go to United Way and ask them to help you so you can afford two apartments, or whatever else they can do for you.

He's acting really really really nice right now, because he sees this as the ONE thing you are most likely to fall for. But don't be fooled; the minute he realizes you may not go along with it, he can change in an instant back to the person who tore down your soul all these years. He's nice right now because it serves HIM to be nice.

If he really loves you, he WILL do the work on himself - from another home.

Uptown

Le vieux, I was confident that -- given how smart you are and how well you understand BPD -- you would do very well. I had no idea, however, that you would do THAT well! Damn, lady, you even RECORDED the conversation! I am simply blown away by your achievement!

You knew, of course, that reaching an agreement with your H would be as meaningful as building a sand castle beside the ocean. It would be washed away by his next emotional tide, probably tomorrow. So you targeted all your comments to your children's ears, the audience he had hoped to sway in his favor. And damn, lady, you even RECORDED the conversation!

As I read his remarks and your response, I was amazed at how dead-on correct, appropriate, measured, and calm your responses were. It reminds me of my old days of debating in high school and college. I would have been so proud to have you as my debating partner.

But please don't try to do that again if you can avoid it. I fully agree with Turnera that you and the kids are at risk because he will try most anything -- and perhaps everything -- to control the situation. Now that he knows he came out looking weak to the kids, he likely will not try the nice guy approach again in any subsequent sit down. More specifically, he will not try the please-save-me-from-my-wounded-self-that-is-not-really-me approach. It went over like a lead balloon. And damn, lady, you even RECORDED the conversation!

P.S. -- ASAP, make a copy of the recording so you have one for him to destroy and one to keep. (But you already knew that too!)

turnera

Oh, good point. Take your recording and go put it in your safe deposit box at your bank that is in YOUR name, and that he cannot get access to. Once he realizes you're still leaving him, he WILL try to find that recording and destroy it.

LVS

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU
WOW turnera!!! uptown!!!
you made me more proud of my self with your comments
uptown you made me laugh i read your post 3 times and was laughing each one
I LOVE IT!!!
But i believe it's too early for me to tip myself
First uptown the recorded conversation is on my daughter's personal cam so i am waiting for her she want to put it on a CD but i am going to put it in my notebook, in my flash drive and in my email and i am going to send a copy to my oldest son in my country
i wish it is in English but i know in case i needed it in the future for legal things they will find a translator
One thing also i should have done before the meeting was calling a hotline and getting their advice
But thank God i did well!!
I went to the meeting with the thoughts that i need to be strong bc i have witnesses my kids and the recorder
Wow he acknowledged everything he did to me since we got married with his own voice with my kids witnessing.
I pointed to the abusive side especially when he hit his daughter and me and when he threaten to kill me and my daughter everything is recorded with his voice
Thank you turnera you inspired me when you were praying me to not go to this meeting and get a witness and bc i have no friends and even no time to contact anybody so i had this idea
in fact it was in my mind to record him while raging but i learned it's illegal to record it without him accepting that

The meeting took more than tree hours i tried to write the essential things
I enjoyed writing and i felt you will enjoy reading it i loved how i turned it over his head
i surprised him he wasn't expecting that

turnera you said he may change i say from my experience with him and my knowledge about BPD he won't change because i was predicting everything he is going to say it's like watching a playback movie lol
for the first time in my life i feel in control of everything in my conversation
wow uptown and turnera you helped me a lot
i was armed with my knowledge about abuse and BPD i remembered everything you said to me and i used them at the right place

BUT WHAT'S NEXT????!!!!!!!!!!!!
that's why i said it's early to tip myself
he amazed me about the way he remembered everything good in me
he was saying them better than if i want to talk about myself
BUT when i was trying to think clearly after the meeting i found out he is saying my mouth words
means everything i said in my brother meeting and i use to say to him to defend myself he said it back to my kids the same way i did and even what he found helping his situation to exit and put the blame on somebody else he used my brother words so he was not blamed for anything but the other bad person who is not him lol

So as i am analyzing things
in my brother's meeting he knew the way i am defending myself and what are my strong points and what i want and how he can be safe
in the family meeting he used all what i said to obviously defend me in front of my kids to convince them that he did change and to make me not able to add anything more so he will be this way pressuring me to stay
BUT i surprised him with me targeting his life with a very controlled and organized way
BUT now i emptied my pockets he knows now all my defenses
and our next meeting will be with the counselor now i have nothing to surprise him and of course he will be having his plan which still unknown for me
I NEED TO ARM MYSELF MORE
I still have no clue how but i will find out
(am i thinking right???)
if you have suggestions please help me
i know it's not a game as turnera said i didn't want to go through it i was forced to but was ready
and i need to be ready for his next try to turned it back over his head

As for leaving or staying I had to say i agree with what the counselor says bc i didn't want to give him a weakness to get me and i didn't want to lose my kids support but i know i need to follow up the conversation we had with additional information to my kids

Now i need to send to my 22 year old daughter information about abuse and BPD to let her know his tactics
if you have any right and summarized one please let me know

As for my 17 years old daughter she is always with me and she knows so many things and during the day she surprised me when she said MOM I NEED TO SEE THERAPIST (wow my heart was pounding of joy) i said why? she said so many things are happening that i don't understand and i need to feel good with myself i encouraged her and i said you will see a therapist and what you are not understanding i do
all you need is to ask me

Today is our first day couple counseling it is orientation meeting
i know nothing about what is going to happen but hopefully later they will send him to a psychologist
(now the reason he is admitting to see psychologist is bc i said i need to go too
and he mentioned yesterday that he use to think a psychologist is for crazy people my 22 year old daughter said it's a silly thought everyone needs a psychologist.)

turnera

If you have time, if you haven't already done so, sit down and make a timeline of your whole marriage and all the things he has done that have hurt or diminished you. If you have it in writing, and can hand that to the counselor, your words will have more power.

btw, this is your LIFE we are talking about. If you felt you had to agree to stay together just for the meeting, you are ALLOWED to change your mind. GET THAT STRAIGHT. You are ALLOWED to change your mind and tell him to leave. Don't let him guilt you by saying 'you SAID I could stay.'

You know what?

Too bad.

YOU said you would love and protect me, and you didn't.

No go.

LVS

This is a good one turnera
i am going to try it
it 's hard to concentrate now with so much in my mind but i am going to try
and if i convinced myself with the points i am going to put i will use it but if not i won't

About him in my life
In fact i don't want to see his face in front of me i told him that
i need to breath without him around he doesn't want to see the reality he is still dreaming about something he did a good job in destroying it.

I need a brake from him in my life
after that i will be able to decide if i want to work on my marriage or not

Right now i don't want to help him or do anything i owe him so much before i started thinking to give a chance

The chance i am giving now bc i need him to see psychologist not bc i want him in my life
my commitment was not for his person it was for my values and believes i have no feelings toward him i walked away heart and mind long time ago
my soul was fighting hard to keep the dream of a happy family together for ever but he worked hard to knock down all my dreams

turnera

I know the feeling...

Good luck.

LVS

It was frustrating

This couples counseling was wasting my time it's like putting a high school student in a first grade class

Sorry for saying that but as you also believe he needs to do lots of individual therapy before we started couples counseling i am not this patient anymore
i can't stress my life more i need to move on
Him being now doing all the positive things doesn't give me the push to leave
i feel i want to scream loudly
it's not fair spending 28 years waiting him to change
and when i decided to leave he decided to change

It is another form of control keeping me stuck in a relationship i don't want


I WANT TO LEAVE

I DON'T WANT HIM TO TALK TO ME

I DON'T WANT TO SEE HIM

WHEN I SEE HIM NICE IT HURTS ME MORE

IT HURTS TERRIBLY MY HEART

WHY NOW HE CAN BE NICE

WHY I DESERVED ALL THIS HARD LIFE WHEN HE WAS PRETENDING HE CAN'T CONTROL HIS ANGER

WHY NOW HE CAN AND IT'S LIKE A PIECE OF CAKE !!!!!

turnera

That is why I tell you that you need to be apart for at least 6 months. He can say he has changed. But unless he can keep it up for at LEAST 6 months to a year, without reverting to the abuser, it is just AN ACT.

I really want you to have a good life together. But I'm a big believer in Tough Love. Because it's based on psychology. And you can't fool psychology; it's a science. The man you have right now, because of the BPD etc., just can't flip a switch. It doesn't change overnight, no matter how much he may want to. He has to go through real therapy - and real therapy takes a LONG time.

That's why I want you to push for separation for now. Not divorce, but separation. Give him a CHANCE, by agreeing to a separation, and if he can go through a 6-month period without reverting, then he is learning and changing. If he keeps reverting, then he's just doing an act.

You need that time alone to learn about yourself and fix yourself, too.

LVS

They gave us papers to fill before we started the couples counseling
He asked me if i want to check his paper to see if he talked right about me ( i felt he wants to show me something) i said i don't want you write what you want
The counselor called my H to talk to him outside
Later my H told me that he asked him why he said he has thoughts of harming himself and my husband answered yes he had these thoughts not now but at the period before 2 weeks
The counselor said you should see therapist
This is the point that i was doubting about in the BPD test now he has this trait too

Anyway this is an additional thing he said it to me when he supposed to keep it to himself
but it's like warning me if i will leave him there is a big possibility that he will harm himself

turnera

Well, too bad.

You are NOT his mother.

LVS

If he is telling the truth to the therapist and acknowledging everything he did to me and my kids

How can i know if he is starting to change?

I am still limiting any contact with him unless it's something concerning the kids or the house
Just bc i don't want to talk to him or look at him not bc i fear his anger

Anyway should i still fear him hurting us?

Today he told me he took individual appointment with therapist
He won't mind if the therapist wants to talk to me

Do you think i should contact her before his appointment or wait until she asks to contact me?

uptown you said your wife spent 15 years in therapy what was the reason to not improve?
Was it bc of her? (i mean she didn't want to get improved)
or bc of BPD?
how much are the chances for my H to heal after this long time
he is now 55 years old?

turnera

I went to therapy for 3 straight years, and WANTED to change, and it still took me that long to be able to wrap my head around what I had to do, and start doing it.

It's almost impossible for him to 'get it' and make necessary changes for at least 6 months to a year. If he is really really dedicated. Because it takes that long to rewire your thinking. At LEAST that long.

You can WANT to change til the cows come home. But your brain is still hardwired to keep doing the same things that have worked for you since childhood, over and over and over. You don't just shut that off.

I would email his therapist and let her know that you are dealing with what seem to be BPD or abusive situations with him, and if she is interested, you will be glad to share your information.

The fear of hurting you...what we're worried about is if he realizes he WILL have to move out, THAT is when he is liable to start grasping for straws to keep from leaving.