You cannot have true love without respect. You cannot expect fidelity without respect. You will NEVER feel trust or genuine emotional comfort from your W without respect.
Her determination to rejoin the marriage without showing you respect is ALL about her desire to continue behaving in a very one sided manner.
I know I am just some guy on the internet but every one of my close relationships (including my W) are based on the golden rule and embedded in that a deep level of mutual respect.
NG - until you do whatever it is that you need to do in this relationship to demand respect you aren't going to progress. I believe 100 percent that you DESERVE it but sadly sometimes that is not enough. Sometimes you have to demand what is rightfully yours. This is one of those times.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nice777guy
Heard Dr. Phil say recently that the best predictor of future behavior is relevant, recent behavior.
I've had a tendency of dominating our therapy sessions. Tomorrow night I'm planning to simply say that I think this "clean slate" thing is totally bogus and selfish. Expect my wife to make 100 excuses - to which I will try to calmly respond "I disagree" and ask the therapist - "What do you think?"
One thing that my wife does well is isolate me. She knows I don't like to talk to people - tries to "shame me" when I do. So lately, I've quit arguing - tell her I disagree - tell her that it seems we are "stuck" in our positions - and that I would prefer to have these types of discussions in therapy.
Not sure if this is a "good" sign or just stupid - but I was the one who kept saying "I'm done" last night when she tried explaining her "clean slate" theory. Its based on the idea that she's really done nothing wrong. I disagree.
Let me just explain something here. I think there are two different ways this could be interpreted:
1) She's apologetic but afraid. Let's imagine that your disloyal wife has come to her senses, and she realizes the things she's done. She knows it was wrong; she feels like a heel; and her actions even demonstrate that she realizes the harm she's done and she takes personal responsibility (meaning she doesn't blame you). From this point forward, she's decided on her own to give you access to her internet accounts, turn off the internet for a year, turn off her cell phone, and turn over a new leaf. BUT she is afraid that she made a big mistake and it's going to be held over her head for forever. It's going to come up in fights for forever so you can get your own way; she'll never live it down; and you'll call her names that hurt to core because she was dumb and made some pretty major mistakes. That's scenario #1.
2) She's avoiding facing the consequences. Let's imagine that your disloyal wife is still completely unable to admit she did anything wrong, and she has no clue or empathy for the utter destruction her choices have caused for others. She doesn't say anything she did was wrong; she feels entitled but she has to "put up with your rules" or she loses her free ride; and her actions even demonstrate that she does not care one bit about the harm she's done--nor does she take personal responsibility (meaning she blames you for her choices). From this point forward, she had no intention of allowing you access to ANYTHING, continues to hide things and won't do anything differently, continues to hide chat and texts on her cell, and basically acts like she really just wants things to continue the way they are. BUT she is afraid that she made a big mistake and she's going to actually have to pay the piper for the choices she's made. She wants to avoid personal responsibility and avoid changing herself and avoid admitting wrong doing...so she hasn't really changed, she's just trying to pull every trick she can to avoid having to choose between having her cake and eating it too. That's scenario #2.
I believe there is a VAST difference between "a clean slate" for scenario #1 and scenario #2. In scenario #1, I do suggest setting up some mutually agreed upon boundaries for both of you (things like some way of establishing No Contact, having access to emails and accounts to verify honesty, etc.), and possibly something like "I'll ask you one question a day and you'll answer fully and honestly, and after one month I'll stop asking." For scenario #1, the offer for a clean slate is closer to reasonable because what the disloyal is saying is "I messed up, I get it! Please don't embarrass me further or hold it against me!" Vengeance is not ours to take, and it is reasonable for a person who realizes their mistake to ask their spouse for undeserved grace. I have to admit though, I think that as a general rule a disloyal who is more like scenario #1 would also understand that they have some rebuilding to do and some amends to make--and they are probably NOT avoid the consequences, just asking for some grace (that they be allowed some dignity) while they pay the consequences. In scenario #1, I would say if actions match words and there is some proof over time of turning over a new leaf and transparency--then I'd ask the loyal to do their best to offer "a clean slate," to act out of forgiveness, and to look to the present and future as much as they possibly can. I would also clarify that does NOT let the disloyal off the hook for helping you (the loyal) deal with and get through what you have to deal with. Make sense?
In scenario #2, though, that disloyal is not acting from a place of admitting they did wrong and wanting to work it out or make amends. That disloyal want to ignore what they did wrong, sweep it under a rug, and avoid experiencing the consequences of their choices. For a disloyal in scenario #2, I don't think the option for "a clean slate" makes as much sense because what they are asking for really is "Please don't make me pay the price for the things I decided to do" and the motivation is not saving dignity but avoiding, blame shifting, deflecting, and covering up the truth. Thus in scenario #2 I would say that the loyal spouse can still be gracious and not rub their face in it (so to speak) but I would think I'd recommend continuing with the consequences until you see actions matching words, evidence of turning over a new leaf, and transparency. Unless a disloyal is able to look at themselves, take personal responsibility for what they chose, and work on themselves to do differently--they will likely "do the same" and it will either happen again or they'll never quit.
So NiceGuy, I'd say determine if your wife is scenario #1 or scenario #2. If she is NOT changing, NOT being transparent voluntarily, and NOT taking responsibility for her actions, I would probably say a clean slate is not a request for "forgiveness" but an attempt to cover up. Thus my conclusion would be to continue with the consequences, don't financially support her, continue with child support/custody type documents at least, and when you hear her admitting she was wrong, and see her changing and being transparent and taking responsibility for her own actions THEN offer her that "clean slate" out of your gracious heart.
NiceGuy,
I reckon the majority of people here know you as a good man. I don’t mean that derogatively, not at all. You’re loaded with the two things that make us human, empathy and compassion for other people. I can’t imagine that you’d hurt another human being or animal deliberately. But if you found out later that through your everyday actions you had hurt someone you would be remorseful, the amount of remorse you would feel would be dependent upon the amount you’d hurt the other person. Why would you feel remorseful? Because you have empathy and compassion for other people.
But there are people in the world that are very different to you. What’s the difference? They simply do not have the empathy and compassion “chip” for other people. They do though have them for themselves. These people label themselves as “victims” and can feel remorse, but that remorse is for themselves and nobody else. It’s a tough one to get your head around.
People who don’t have empathy and compassion for others are sometimes called sociopaths, psychopaths or narcissistic. These people just don’t seem to “care” about the hurt they’ve caused another person and are totally incapable of being remorseful about the hurt they’ve caused.
As a human being you need to know your wife both knows what she’s done is wrong, she needs to know just how much she has hurt you and she needs to show you she is very remorseful just as Turnera has written. I don’t think you know that in your head though as yet. You know it in your heart and soul, it’s a gut feeling for you. These things are telling you there is something very wrong in the situation and as yet you don’t know if it is either something wrong with you or something wrong with your wife.
I’m here to tell you that there is nothing wrong with you. I’m here to tell you that there is something very wrong with your wife. She has no empathy and she has no compassion. There ain’t much you can do about that.
I used to think on it this way. The criminal justice system passes either a lenient or strong sentence to different people for the same crime.
Take burglary as an example. If the person found guilty demonstrates guilt and remorse for their actions they get a reduced sentenced. In a way they have learnt their own lesson and are given a reduced sentence to reflect that. These people have empathy and compassion for other people and know they did wrong and made a mistake.
Those that insist on their innocence in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary and do not demonstrate guilt or remorse get a greater sentence in the hope that it will teach them a lesson that they haven’t learnt themselves. These people do not have empathy and compassion for other people, just for themselves. They are just incapable of learning, they don’t want to learn and think the whole world is against them, this is the “victims” world.
The former get a reduced sentenced because “They know what they did was wrong and are both feeling guilty and remorseful about it”. The latter gets a stronger sentence in the hope that it will teach them a lesson they’re incapable of learning themselves.
Right now you’re in what I think of as the “perceiving mode”. You’re just seeing and feeling what’s happening. But unlike the rest of us you are doing that in first person mode, you are “living it” and right in the middle of it. It’s an exceptionally emotional time for you and I know you know that.
On the other hand while the rest of us are in perception mode, some of us are feeling it through our empathy and compassion for you but we’re in third person mode. While we feel emotions for you, probably in some cases the same as you are but nowhere near as strong and as deep or for so long. Some of also made our judgement about your situation a while back.
One day you will switch to “judgement mode”. When you are in that mode, like the judge in a court, you will make your judgement. At the moment you’re probably feeling persecuted by your wife. You simply cannot understand how she can hurt you so much, why she is doing it and thinks she can get away with it. One day you will have had enough of your wife’s persecution of you, you will stop trying to “rescue her from herself” and you will turn into the persecutor. Recognise that point, recognise that change in yourself. It is the time when the Man in you says “enough is enough, I will not take anymore”. It’s the time when the end is the end. It’s the time when you’ve stopped perceiving and made your judgement.
It is the time when you quite literally fear further future abuse from your wife. In order to prevent future abuse and the pain that comes with it you will become Intolerant of your wife’s behaviour, her abuse of the Man you are and the pain it causes you. After you’ve become intolerant you will erect your Personal Boundaries and you will tell your wife what you will no longer tolerate. You will just say “I will not tolerate that behaviour”. That’s all you will say and she will know deep inside of her she can longer get away with what she’s done and what she’s doing, now or in the future. She will know the Man in you has made his Judgement.
Turnera – her not wanting to end the argument actually seemed like a good thing to me. She was willing to have a discussion - seems like an improvement over indifference.
MEM – I feel like I have one of two ways to earn respect. The first is to work on myself more aggressively – must admit that I’ve been depressed more so lately, so this sounds hard right now. The other option would be to file – have her served. She doesn’t really think I’ll do it – and so far she’s been right. I guess I really need to do both at this point.
AC – I DO think she’s afraid of losing the convenience of the marriage, and also afraid of being embarrassed. She’s said that she’s afraid to share things with me because she never knows when I’ll send something to her mother or discuss it with a friend. She’s also said that if we get divorced she’ll feel like a failure – like she let people down.
I don’t think she’s remorseful or feels responsible. And I don’t think she intends to give me transparency. Maybe I’ll find out tonight.
Bob – like so many other people that come here, what drives me crazy is that my wife USED to have that compassion chip. Then - a little more than a year ago after 14.5 years of marriage - something just flipped.
And its not so much that I fear her. I just see two paths.
The first – she comes to her senses, moves home, and things are back to normal. We can work on the house, start saving aggressively for college, take the kids to Disney – be the big happy family that I want us to be.
The second path – Divorce. Money goes to attorneys – gets divided. No Disney – no work on the house. More ugliness and arguments.
The contrast is so great - I don’t want to give up on the Happy Family dream when some days it feels like its within my reach again.
NG, tell me again what you're doing for counseling? Because right now, you sound like the same old guy who came here who was willing to give his wife whatever she demanded, just to keep her. Or just one step away from it.
A counselor should be helping you firm up your boundaries - what you absolutely have to have in a partner, and stick up for them.
I think part of it is that I'm feeling worn down by all of this.
Counseling - seeing the person who "was" our marriage therapist. She's been helping. Encouraged me to file or at least talk to an attorney (nope, haven't done it yet) and told me I need to think about just moving on.
So tonight my wife is going back to therapy with me for the first time in a while.
I wouldn't say I'm ready or willing to cave in.
Bringing print screens from my wife's myspace page tonight. Took them before she locked me out. She continues to say it's innocent flirting. Just curious if she'll continue to say its innocent with evidence in her face and in front of an objective third party. (yes AC - I know - I'm trying to change her and make her see that she's wrong even though I know she won't admit it)
I guess I just need to change my Big Happy Family dream up a bit because it is too far gone from reality.
I have known my wife since high school. More than 23 years.
In high school – other than my wife - I had one major crush who never really wanted anything to do with me – and one short term girlfriend who was crazier about me than I was about her.
I also had two very good female friends – very, very attractive – but no spark. I look back and wonder if there was something wrong with me – question why didn’t I go after one of these two very pretty girls. Just no spark.
But my wife – I remember feeling that spark the first time I saw her. I “chased” her all throughout high school. Played the patient best friend while she worked her way through a couple of loser boyfriends. Then in college I “caught” her. Maybe I wore her down after 4.5 years!!!
We are contrasts to one another. AC mentioned being an INFP somewhere recently – I’m one of those too, and wife is ESTJ. Have read both ways – that these types can complement each other, or are too far apart to ever work together effectively.
My wife’s boldness and her desire to get things she wanted were both qualities that attracted me to her initially – and in some ways those traits keep me drawn to her. Its just that for the first time in 15 years of marriage, those same qualities are working against the marriage.
The biggest change by far though has been the lying. I’ve often told her that Fibro and lying are completely unrelated, and that she’s lied to me more in the last year than she did in the first 14 years of marriage. She used to have integrity.
Not sure why I’m writing all of this. Maybe to remind you all that there are some strong and irrational emotions still involved in all of this mess. Also kind of feels like I’m writing a eulogy.
NG, we have very similar stories. I was with the love of my life for 42 years, married for 38. In some ways I’m still in love with her and I know that will be with me for the rest of my life. I’ve accepted that.
I’m now separated for 10 months and for the first time in a long while peace, tranquillity and contentment entered into me, those things just came. I now know why they came. They came because I’m out of the drama.
Today I told my wife that I’m ready to start the divorce process because I need to move on. But if she’s not ready as yet it’s of no great consequence to me, I’ll wait until she’s ready and I’ll find another way to move on.
You’re in a thing called life. Sometimes life brings us joy and happiness and sometimes it brings us pain. Life is a balance. For me the in the end the pain outweighed the joy and happiness, even all the joy and happiness I’d had stacked up over the years we were together.
These times are indeed very very sad. You know you are the only one who knows if it’s ended or not.
I'm sure it will come as no surprise, my spouse and I went through a similar scenario.
In her case, she never asked for a clean slate - she would simply become exasperated and consistently say; "I'm tired of re-hashing all of the same stuff from the past."
What she, and presumably your wife fail to acknowledge is that it doesn't need to be re-hashed, if they just frigging address it. Which of course, either as a result of fear, ambivalence, or a damaged desire to perpetuate the behavior - they refuse to do.
My wife actually did take responsibility. She felt remorse for the circumstances - but it was not to such a degree that she would fit the criteria that Turnera mentioned. I honestly don't think she is capable of meeting that threshold. She doesn't want to hurt me or the kids. She is neither vindictive or spiteful. But I don't think she trusts herself enough to want to actively work at repairing the bond. It is interesting that you mention that your wife is afraid of 'failing'. This too, is exactly the language my spouse has used.
She is afraid to commit herself, because she is afraid to fail. She cannot let go of the notions that I have expectations that she cannot, or will not live up to. So in that case - it is far easier to put the onus on me. Or in your case, your wife wants a clean slate where you both start from a point of zero accountability.
If you have a clean slate, it can just as easily be your fault that things don't work, or you are unwilling to accept her for who she is, rather than her being the person who betrayed the marriage and screwed everything up with her actions in the first place.
Does your wife suffer from low self-esteem? Mine does big time. She does not seek out approval or admiration like your wife does. However, her choice in a partner is a direct result of her low self-esteem. He's 'easy'. She calls the shots, she has control. He doesn't threaten her misplaced sense of control.
Without a doubt, the absolute most damaging thing that occured after our separation was her pursuit of a physical affair and the lies she told me as a result. The lies were devastating. Can you forgive her lies without having a true awareness of their depth or extent?
Here is my opinion:
Your wife is not prepared to let go of her pursuit of whatever the hell it is that she's pursuing. She's looking for 'better', and it is in no way clear what 'better' is or what it means.
She needs to be able to articulate that.
I also believe that she has not yet felt the full pain, or weight, of what ending your marriage would mean for her. Again, in line with what Turnera has said, she has not hit rock bottom. You are the safety net that prevents that.
She wants to continue her search for 'better', with you - yet 'better' may not in the end, be you. In simple speak, she still wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to work on her marriage, while also maintaining an escape clause.
When dealing with my wife, I tried to break this down to an elegant, yet complex question where introspection is unavoidable.
What do you need?
You both need to be able to answer the question. I don't suspect that you will have much difficulty with it. Your spouse probably will. The answer needs to be specific to the individual. In other words the answer cannot be about what you need her to do, or what she needs you to do.
My wife couldn't really answer the question. And I actually believe that is her truth. She really doesn't know what she needs. She doesn't know how to ask for what she needs. She doesn't know how to take responsibility for what she needs. She could not possibly take ownership or responsibility for meeting the needs of her partner - because she believes she will fail. She looks to a partner to behave in a manner that suits and defines her perceived need - which is the kids. She is damaged.
I stopped making demands or giving ultimatums or setting expectations for my wife's behavior. I just started following the rules of my own personal boundaries. Behaving according to those guidelines proved exponentially more efficient than trying to explain and make her 'see' what she was doing wrong.
In that regard, she needs to make perfectly clear what a clean slate means, and why exactly it is important to her, other than the ability to simply sweep her sins of the past under the rug.
Hold your boundaries - even if a therapist challenges them. If the therapist says, "well if you want to make progress, than you need to look forward, not backward. You both made mistakes."
Use your tagline - "I disagree."
Progress is about willingness, and accountability, not manipulation and obfuscation. I also agree that you should not act as the facilitator in therapy. Keep your mouth shut, let her do the work. I think you alluded to this dynamic previously?
Amen to that Deejo.
I imagine it took you a long while to get where you're at. I'm in the same place, same thoughts and same beliefs.
It ain't easy this stuff.
NG be in peace Man.
Bob
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deejo
I'm sure it will come as no surprise, my spouse and I went through a similar scenario.
In her case, she never asked for a clean slate - she would simply become exasperated and consistently say; "I'm tired of re-hashing all of the same stuff from the past."
What she, and presumably your wife fail to acknowledge is that it doesn't need to be re-hashed, if they just frigging address it. Which of course, either as a result of fear, ambivalence, or a damaged desire to perpetuate the behavior - they refuse to do.
My wife actually did take responsibility. She felt remorse for the circumstances - but it was not to such a degree that she would fit the criteria that Turnera mentioned. I honestly don't think she is capable of meeting that threshold. She doesn't want to hurt me or the kids. She is neither vindictive or spiteful. But I don't think she trusts herself enough to want to actively work at repairing the bond. It is interesting that you mention that your wife is afraid of 'failing'. This too, is exactly the language my spouse has used.
She is afraid to commit herself, because she is afraid to fail. She cannot let go of the notions that I have expectations that she cannot, or will not live up to. So in that case - it is far easier to put the onus on me. Or in your case, your wife wants a clean slate where you both start from a point of zero accountability.
If you have a clean slate, it can just as easily be your fault that things don't work, or you are unwilling to accept her for who she is, rather than her being the person who betrayed the marriage and screwed everything up with her actions in the first place.
Does your wife suffer from low self-esteem? Mine does big time. She does not seek out approval or admiration like your wife does. However, her choice in a partner is a direct result of her low self-esteem. He's 'easy'. She calls the shots, she has control. He doesn't threaten her misplaced sense of control.
Without a doubt, the absolute most damaging thing that occured after our separation was her pursuit of a physical affair and the lies she told me as a result. The lies were devastating. Can you forgive her lies without having a true awareness of their depth or extent?
Here is my opinion:
Your wife is not prepared to let go of her pursuit of whatever the hell it is that she's pursuing. She's looking for 'better', and it is in no way clear what 'better' is or what it means.
She needs to be able to articulate that.
I also believe that she has not yet felt the full pain, or weight, of what ending your marriage would mean for her. Again, in line with what Turnera has said, she has not hit rock bottom. You are the safety net that prevents that.
She wants to continue her search for 'better', with you - yet 'better' may not in the end, be you. In simple speak, she still wants to have her cake and eat it too. She wants to work on her marriage, while also maintaining an escape clause.
When dealing with my wife, I tried to break this down to an elegant, yet complex question where introspection is unavoidable.
What do you need?
You both need to be able to answer the question. I don't suspect that you will have much difficulty with it. Your spouse probably will. The answer needs to be specific to the individual. In other words the answer cannot be about what you need her to do, or what she needs you to do.
My wife couldn't really answer the question. And I actually believe that is her truth. She really doesn't know what she needs. She doesn't know how to ask for what she needs. She doesn't know how to take responsibility for what she needs. She could not possibly take ownership or responsibility for meeting the needs of her partner - because she believes she will fail. She looks to a partner to behave in a manner that suits and defines her perceived need - which is the kids. She is damaged.
I stopped making demands or giving ultimatums or setting expectations for my wife's behavior. I just started following the rules of my own personal boundaries. Behaving according to those guidelines proved exponentially more efficient than trying to explain and make her 'see' what she was doing wrong.
In that regard, she needs to make perfectly clear what a clean slate means, and why exactly it is important to her, other than the ability to simply sweep her sins of the past under the rug.
Hold your boundaries - even if a therapist challenges them. If the therapist says, "well if you want to make progress, than you need to look forward, not backward. You both made mistakes."
Use your tagline - "I disagree."
Progress is about willingness, and accountability, not manipulation and obfuscation. I also agree that you should not act as the facilitator in therapy. Keep your mouth shut, let her do the work. I think you alluded to this dynamic previously?
"I'm tired of re-hashing all of the same stuff from the past."
What she, and presumably your wife fail to acknowledge is that it doesn't need to be re-hashed, if they just frigging address it.
Damn - almost stopped reading right then in order to pick my jaw up off of the floor.
Those are her exact words - she's tired of re-hashing things. Things that she's never addressed.
Will look into Healing the Shame that Binds You.
With regards to the "clean slate" discussion that I "hope" we have tonight - I don't think its reasonable or healthy to sweep it all under the rug. BUT, I'm open to suggestions about how to go about asking questions - kind of like the 1 per day that AC recommended, or the Weekend in Hell that MEM recommended (pull the band-aid off quickly and get it over with.)
But what I've gathered here is that a clean slate - with no remorse shown - simply indicates that she does not understand the extent of the damage she has done. If she makes no attempt to understand, then she just doesn't care.
That any decent person would want to help their spouse work through the pain they had caused, and would be expressing true, honest remorse. The lack of remorse shows that she just doesn't understand, or just doesn't care.
Most importantly, if she doesn't understand or doesn't care, the behaviors will continue.
Re: How to deal with the anger... 
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at 
