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Marriage Crumbling

19K views 118 replies 34 participants last post by  3Xnocharm 
#1 ·
Hi all,

This is my first post here. I was active on another website forum (divoce busting) and while the support was great, I wasn't so sure the advice I was getting wasn't too harsh. Most of the people on that forum are dealing with affairs and infidelity, that's not the case with my wife and I.

So, to try and sum up my story real quick. My wife and I have been married 16 years, together 19 years. She had a 6 year old son when I met her who I adopted and raised like my own (father not in the picture at all). About a year after we started dating and 6 months into living together (I moved in with her to keep her son at the same school etc) a knock came at the door which I answered. It was my then girlfriends ex boyfriend just previous to me. He asked if she was home and I said no (although she was) and for a split second I took my off of him and before I knew it he had stabbed me with a steak knife half way through my stomach. He ran, I fell, cops pursued and arrested him, I had emergency surgery to repair a severed stomach, pancreas and lost my spleen and spent 3 weeks in the hospital and 10 months of recovery at home with a nurse visiting everyday (I had complications with the spleen not healing and had a colostamy bag on for almost a year). I mention this because this set off a lot of my family taking sides and opinions about my then girlfriend and she at the time couldn't handle all the guilt etc and went on anti-depressants for 9 months which was understandable. She was just about to go back to school but had to push it back 6 months under the circumstances but she did go back and finish with honours. Fast forward about a year we both end up going back to school for the careers we wanted and got jobs, moved back into the city near where I grew up - was my wife's idea - she loved the area.

We married in our late 20's, had two boys along with her son who are ages 26, 14 and 11 at the moment. After living in a couple of apartments we bought a nice little 3 bedroom bungalow home in a great neighbourhood in 2003 that we love and 5 years later in 2007 we tore the house down and did a huge reno with a 2nd storey, room over the garage etc. Beautiful home for our family. During all of this time I have been working on contract in the IT field which was fine back then but over the past 4 years or so has gotten stressful financially as these contracts got shorter and shorter so I was always looking for work and would be off a few weeks unexpectedly etc. My wife and I had always fought and argued. She is from divorced parents who are both looney and do nothing but create problems for her, always fighting until about 10 yrs ago my wife cut off communication with her mother but still maintains a distant relationship with her father. We've had financial issues for years. I work steady and get paid well, my wife always worked part-time which was fine when the kids where younger but there hasn't been a need for her to be home for them in years but she still insists on working part-time which doesn't help our financial situation. I didn't complain too much so long as we could handle the finances.

So let me try and get to the point here. Over the past few years I could feel her drift from me, always angry towards me, never anything positive to say making me feel like I'm to blame for everything that's wrong in our marriage. As of this past Christmas she said she's not happy so we try a marriage counsellor for 3 sessions before we give up because the marriage counsellor was awful - we would come out in worse shape than when we went in. We tried another one and she was great but by that time we had no money left for counselling so stopped going. Meantime, I was on the divoce busting forum taking advice from others saying to do a 180 and back-off, give her space etc which I did for 4 months when my wife said to me one of us needs to move out - so this tactice didn't work well for me. We instead agreed to an in-house separation and I tried sleeping in the basement for about 3 days but upon taking the advice from the divorce busting forum I went and told my wife that sleeping in the basement wasn't working for me and that I was moving back into our bedroom. The idea behind this is that it is the marital bedroom and since I'm not the one asking for separation and space, she should be the one that seeks it out, not me making it easy for her. In premise, I get it and agree but in practice this didn't go over well with my W. We lasted about 2 days in the same room and she moved out to her office/bedroom down the hall and she has been sleeping there for the past 3 months. She told me then she doesn't respect me, isn't attracted to me, doesn't want to be around me, doesn't want me to touch her etc. During that time I was following the divorce busting 'rules' to not ask questions, not pressure, give her space, not pursue, give validation etc but my wife and I talked a few days ago and she said 'this isn't working, it's time for one of us to move out'. She's says she's done and can't live like this. My heart dropped but I didn't freak out or beg etc. One of the other things I learned from the other forum is don't cry, beg etc or you will most certainly lose her respect and push her away . Anyway, I just reinfored that I love her and am committed to making this work but that I would have to think about this. I also got the dreaded I'll always love you but not in that way. What she was saying is that I love you but I'm not in love with you anymore. She's lost those feelings for me. She walks around cold shouldering me, picking on little things, seemingly angry and resentful although she says she's past that but she was more than willing to argue with me during our talk a few days ago. Oddly I thought if she is willing to argue perhaps there is still some piece of her that wants this to work. She has sat in that room by herself for the past 3 months and I think has convinced herself that the marriage is done and her 'switch' has turned off as she has said. And once the switch is off she says it probably won't come back on again. She is extreme always. Strangely though she is fine having our best friend couple over for dinner or us going to their place like we always have. We hang with them as if there aren't any problems (we don't talk much between us but we act fine in front of our friends). She also accepted tickets to a dinner fund raiser for us both to go to through friends of ours which is later this week. Surprised she accepted for us both to go. Maybe she is giving me a chance but just won't say it - at least that is what I'm hoping. She is a hard and tough lady, loves to give guilt trips and is generally pretty hard on me, very demanding and opinionated but says what she feels and isn't afraid to make her position known to anyone.

My wife is upset that I didn't write an exam yet for professional designation I am pursuing but it's a massive amount of work and frankly under all of this stress it's been next to impossible to focus but I can't tell her that. As for work, I may be offered full-time work where I am currently working on contract so that would bring some stability to the finances but overall less money coming in so we'll see what happens. She hates that I argue with her but to be honest, she argues with everyone, not just me but she doesn't see it so that makes things difficult but for now I'm not arguing with her about anything - just saying yes basically for the moment. She brings up some nasty things I've said in arguments which I understand but they were one time things and she has done far worse - she spit in my face once! We have never been physical with each other during fights, just verbally abusive at times. She has a very short fuse and yells over small things let alone bug arguments. Granted, I am somewhat defensive, at least during my relationship with her I've became very defensive, you sort of had to be to survive.

She had complained I didn't do anything to help around the house so I took over paying the bills, doing the laundry, splitting making the kids lunches and generally keeping the kitchen clean. But, how do I get her attraced to me again!

My current situation is this:

First, she is waiting for me to finish our conversation on how we are going handle one of us moving out (she is inferring me moving out of course). I told her I don't think this is a good idea but she says she can't go on like this. I think my response will be for the sake of our kids and our marriage lets give it 6 months. If we aren't headed in the right direction by then we either physically separate then or just sell the house and move on. Oh, and she won't go to the marriage counsellor either - she says she doesn't see the point (she's already made up her mind).

Second, what do I do to breakdown that ice wall she has put up? I know I can't pursue her per se but having tried giving her space and keeping busy outside the house and that has not worked either. She previously said she needed time and space and I told her I respected those wishes but she was mad at me saying I had all that time to try and fix things and I did nothing (I thought she wanted space!!!). Damned if I do, damned if I don't. This is my dilemna now, how do I handle things with her moving forward. The first thing I have done is just started talking with her nicely and normally in-spite of her short and cold responses. I don't get defensive. I have always gone to the gym and ran so I'm in great shape for a 47 year old and decently good looking for my age, just ran a 5k run downtown last week and did very well, coach my kids softball and hockey teams etc. I'm not a lazy guy etc, I'm always busy with something. I know actions speak louder than words and I am really hoping this full-time work offer comes through - that would give us some stability no matter what happens. But I need help to understand how I should be interacting with my wife day to day, what sort of things should I be saying to her without pressuring her, what can I do or say to try and help break down the walls? Words alone won't cut it it - I need a plan to follow and stick to and I'm at a loss at the moment. Following the divorce busting rules would have been fine had I have been pursuing and trying to get her back but I got on there early and immediately pulled back (didn't beg and pursue etc). The idea being that you create space and she would eventually miss you and become attracted to you. This didn't work for me - she just seemed to get more resentful. She's been pissed off that she had to move out of our room and blames me for making her have to do it to get her space, that she always has to make the sacrifices etc. That she has sacrificed everything for this family. She may be having a bit of a mid life crisis as well as she did mention in our last talk that she almost 50 and has nothing to show for it. I think she feels getting away from me and the financial stresses would give her what she needs in life. She's not ditching the kids or anything like that but she has pulled back on attending the kids softball games etc and only goes when she is up to it which is about 10% of the time or less. She is doing some serious soul searching and doesn't see how I fit into her life right now without bringing her down it seems.

Any advice is welcome.
 
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#2 ·
Hello there and sorry you are dealing with this. A few years ago I went through something similar with my ex.

One thing I learned through my ordeal: If they don't want to be there, there is nothing you can do to change that. It takes two to make a marriage but just one to end it. You can do everything perfectly and it won't make one bit of difference. BOTH partners have to want the marriage for it to be saved.

It sounds like your W has already decided to leave the marriage and is trying to figure out how to accomplish her goal. I say this from experience, and hindsight is 20/20 in my case. I was thrown for a loop when my ex, over a period of a few years, started to say things like: "It's not you, it's me;" "I don't know what's wrong with me," "I love you but I'm not sure it's sexual anymore," and on and on it goes.

This has mid life crisis written all over it, especially her comment about having nothing to show for her life (which I am sure is not true, especially since your M sounds like it was very good). Also, her being 50 is a massive trigger age for a midlife crisis (my ex's exploded at the age of 40).

You are where I was in the beginning with my ex. I was determined to save the relationship. I only figured out later that she was already gone and there was nothing to save. In the end I wish I had been stronger, it would have allowed me to spare my dignity which I could have used in the end. Based on what you write, your W is doing everything mine did. Which means: it's over for her, but not yet for you.

By the way I met someone else shortly after my ex left and we have our ups and downs, but I'm now very satisfied in the marriage and I have to say, I am much healthier and happier now than I was with the ex. Sometimes the old way is not the best way.

But I feel for your pain and I am so sorry for what you are going through.
 
#115 ·
I was thrown for a loop when my ex, over a period of a few years, started to say things like: "It's not you, it's me;" "I don't know what's wrong with me," "I love you but I'm not sure it's sexual anymore," and on and on it goes.
I don't want to thread jack, but how could you be thrown for a loop when your spouse was saying these things over a period of years? The first or second time might have been a bit of a shocker.... but those things don't come out of thin air. If your wife isn't sure she's into you sexually anymore, I would think you'd notice that in the bedroom long before she actually said the words.
 
#3 ·
I agree with Nix2. It sounds like your wife determined that she was done a while ago. It takes 2 to save a marriage and you certainly aren't getting cooperation. That's too bad, especially for the kids. However, the kids have to know that this isn't a normal marriage. The misery has to be effecting them in a huge way. Sit down with your wife and tell her that you want to work on it but you understand that she doesn't. Agree that someone needs to move out then tell her that it needs to be her since she's the one that has decided not to try. She's already made up her mind that it's over so she needs to take the next step.
 
#4 ·
Johnny, I agree with most of the beginning of what Nix says, also...but with a very important difference: This isn't the result of some "Mid life crisis".. there really isn't such a thing you know, reaching mid life isn't really a crisis for folks who were previously well adjusted......what you've got is the result of someone falling out of love and deciding to end the marriage. "Crisis" of any kind suggests "Temporary"....this, sadly, seems rather chronic.

You should move out. And not b/c of the issues or her decision, but frankly b/c of her refusal to pursue therapy to address them.

When one party has reached a decision not to pursue therapy, the next best thing is a dress rehearsal or reality check on the decision itself. A lot of times, folks are so unhappy and desperate that they convince themselves that divorce is the only answer, and the only way to address that is for them to actually experience the vividness of separation.

So, by moving out and coming up with a financial agreement and visitation schedule which would mimic what you'd get thru an actual divorce, she gets to move past the "I need" phase to actually experiencing what it would be like, for her and for the kids.

Sometimes, reality increases the motivation to pursue therapy, but sometimes it just hardens the decision already made. But at least you have clarification. Right now, you have nothing, and unless you're both working on this, the chances of it actually improving are pretty much nil.
 
#5 ·
Thanks for the responses folks. It's a difficult situation but I really feel we need some time before we tear this family apart. I am simply going to say to her that I still love her and want time to work on things. Propose 6 months to try and get things on track - see what she says. If she says no then all I can say is we can't afford another household so what are our options. Selling the house is a serious upset to the kids. I just want to slow things down. See what happens in my work situation, take the summer to try and reconnect, see if I can get her back into Marriage Counselling sessions. In fact, I'm going to call the marriage counsellor and see what she suggests.

My understanding is that it's not always over when the wife says she's done like this. It may be but she hasn't walked out the door either so I just need to start doing the right things to try and get her back. I have not idea what that is though other than stabilizing my work situation for one and the other is finish writing my exam but that is going to take months. Need to earn back some respect - need to save someone from a burning house or something lol - (I joke when I'm upset).
 
#14 ·
My understanding is that it's not always over when the wife says she's done like this. It may be but she hasn't walked out the door either so I just need to start doing the right things to try and get her back. I have not idea what that is though other than stabilizing my work situation for one and the other is finish writing my exam but that is going to take months. Need to earn back some respect - need to save someone from a burning house or something lol - (I joke when I'm upset).
I agree with the highlighted statement. That seems to be the only plum in a bucket of worms..

Yes, she could have another man on the side. She does not want to ruin her reputation by bringing it out into the light of day. The OM may be married and not available.

It is also possible that sex is not important to her "at all".

She is aggressive/passive.....note, I put aggressive first.

She wants the security of the house. The house is keeping her from filing for divorce and from leaving "it". The house means more to her than "you".

Her love is stability and comfort...and not conflict.

When she drives you out...of the home....out of her life...she will be happy. That is what she thinks.

What does she read? What does she watch on TV? What leading men does she find appealing? This is what she is interested in. If it is romantically oriented, about relationships made in heaven then she is not "over" with love and sex. Does she compare you negatively to "other" men....TV stars, neighbor men, male friends?

Where her mind is, is where her desired future lies. You are not in that future.

Sorry.
 
#6 ·
Unicus - it's a good point. I should mention that I asked if we are heading to divorce and she said I wasn't thinking about that. She just wants physical separation to see if she will miss me and hopefully rekindle the relationship. She has never brought up divorce - when I mentioned it that was the first time that word has ever been spoken between us.
 
#12 ·
Johnny, I'm sure you were hoping for some reassurance here or maybe even some therapeutic silver bullet to save things, but I think you'd do well to do 2 things: 1) Listen to her request for separation, and 2) Prepare yourself for the worst. Talking with her is always a good idea, of course, but what you're planning doesn't sound so much like a plan to work together on your issues, but rather wishful thinking on your part that by somehow doubling down and being a "Good boy", she might change her mind. In the absence of therapy and your listening to and following thru on what she's really asking, you're more likely to create further antagonism.

Right now, the biggest problem for you are not the issues themselves, but her unwillingness to enter into therapy to address them. Without treatment, the "Patient" here..your marriage..will most likely succumb.

Also, I'm not going to get side tracked by discussions of psychobabble like "Mid life crisis" which have unfortunately found their way into the lexicon based more on ignorance than an actual understanding of human emotional development. You can accept what you want if it makes you feel better, but what you're describing here doesn't fall into either a category that neatly defines it as a normal result of mid life, nor is it a "Crisis" in the traditional sense, something brought about by a sudden and dramatic event(s). Her need for urgency only points to her high state of emotional arousal which is a symptom of the chronicity of her unhappiness.
 
#7 ·
I agree with Unique that plenty of people get through their 40s, 50s and beyond without blowing up their lives.

I disagree that there is no such thing as a midlife crisis, but I do agree that if your W did not already have issues that this would not be happening, or at least not to this extent. She might want a new car or a new job, but ditching you and her boys suggests that she has been unhappy for a while.

Where midlife crisis comes in is the entitlement and urgency she feels to change her life RIGHT NOW with seemingly no regard for you or her kids. She is done and excited about her New Life. That is MLC.

I would also be cautious about moving out before you consult an attorney. I understand that men who leave their marital homes are often screwed over in the divorce financially speaking. Please get legal advice to protect yourself and your young boys who will need you now more than ever.
 
#40 ·
I agree with Unique that plenty of people get through their 40s, 50s and beyond without blowing up their lives.

I disagree that there is no such thing as a midlife crisis, but I do agree that if your W did not already have issues that this would not be happening, or at least not to this extent.
MLCs almost always have something to do with childhood and are very complex deals. It would take a lot of therapy for her to figure out where it's all coming from.

In the meantime, I want you to check her phone/text records, JUST to be sure she's not pining for some other guy. If she IS, you have to go in a completely different direction. My SIL suddenly divorced my brother, saying it was because of how negative he was...until we discovered her longlost childhood secret love had looked her up on Facebook and started reminding her of what she missed out on. NEVER in my wildest dreams would I have believed her capable of that. But there is was. Combine middle age and old feelings...you just can't predict it.

Anyway, AFTER you search the records and if you find nothing, the next thing you need to do is get the book His Needs Her Needs and read it thoroughly. If she'll read it too, great. If not, tell her the basics of it and then ask her to fill out the questionnaires that go with it. Those LB and EN questionnaires will tell you a LOT. Once you know what you're really dealing with, you have a much better chance of adjusting things so that she has less to be angry about. And she'll have a chance to be heard.

As for specifics, do NOT move out of your bedroom, do NOT move out of your house. Women despise weak men. And whether she knows it or not, she needs you to be firm, resolute, and NOT willing to beg her to stay. Respect yourself so that she can. DO be open to hearing her grievances, but do NOT be willing to compromise your integrity.
 
#10 ·
Do your due diligence and double check (discretely) to make sure she isn't having an affair because that will affect how you face this situation. The advice you'll get will be different if she is cheating vs if she isn't. I'm only saying this because many of us here had "faithful" wives that we later found out were having an affair and that was the source of the marital problems.
 
#11 ·
I completely agree that this is midlife crisis behavior, and it probably DOES involve another man. The MLC'er usually seeks to allay ennui and disappointment and run from mortality with a newer shinier model. The "I love you but I'm not in love with you" is a classic MLC line. And of course, LOADS of people get to and through middle age without coming apart, but people with precarious coping mechanisms that barely prop them up WILL fray and frazzle at midlife when they see their youth vanishing.

The purpose of the 180 is NOT to win your spouse back. It is to help you retain your sanity. It is true that you shouldn't beg and you should be concerned with respect, but with your own self-respect. Our MLC partners may or may not go through a phase where they claim not to respect us, or they may respect us later when the fog clears and the miss something about the life they had with us.

But you HAVE managed to maintain your sanity. It is very clear you want your marriage to work but you haven't been sappy and romantic and pleading about it.

I agree with everyone else here; consult an attorney, and don't move out until you know what that will mean in a divorce. And even if the full time job pays less overall than the contract work, it might be a good idea to take it so that you have a regular source of income, and also because in a divorce situation, in a case of contract work, it would be very easy for her or her attorney to overestimate your earning potential when making financial demands. You need to show a steady income stream for the time being. Nothing says you can't pick up some contracts on the side but I would just say you've done a good job of instinctively knowing that you need to stay as steady as possible, you've been very steady, and I would urge you to continue to make your plans (for the worst, while hoping for the best, as @Nix2 says) to ensure the maximum steadiness in your life, especially financially. Your emotions will likely be all over the place, but do your best. And if things externally are steady, it will help you keep your wits about you and help you deal with your emotions.

Good luck friend. I have been where you are and wouldn't wish that on anyone but the wh0re my h left me for, and I'm pretty sure if he doesn't sort himself out, she'll be on the receiving end of it at some point.
 
#15 ·
She isn't ditching the kids at all. She is a really good mother and always will be. She has just stopped feeling guilty about making it to every single game or event the kids have as our obligations are numerous and stressful. I don't blame her for that - she has just pulled back and has been focusing on herself the last while. She isn't running out the door or threatening divorce either. It's not like that - she is being respectful in how she is handling things - moving slowly, no 3rd party involved, just dealing with us. But all she can see if the negatives in me these days and that's what I need some help with.
 
#16 ·
. She is a really good mother and always will be. She has just stopped feeling guilty .
Johnny, lots of advice here, but you're getting side tracked. Not every unhappy wife has found another man.

Your quote there, the one above..go re read it. A "Good mother" would recognize the effects of a bad marriage on her children and do everything in her power to fix it. Your wife is doing the opposite, she's refusing to go to therapy with you, and she's begun to pull back from activities with you and the kids. She's not a "Good mother". A good parent is also a good spouse.

Rather than looking for the fruit, you'd do well to talk with us about your concerns about moving out.

Really, there are only 2 ways this can improve: 1) With a reality check of what separation is really like, and/or 2) Therapy. Your "Plan" will further and likely intensify the antagonism btwn you.
 
#18 ·
I can 99.999% guarantee there is no other man. I work from home half the time and frankly there just isn't enough time for this to happen for her. I did ask earlier on and she said there is no one else and that it isn't about anyone else. I do believe her - she is a very proud person and she would likely tell me and justify it if she was with OM. So let's just remove that from the discussion.

BTW - I'm from Canada eh! But, I will check will a lawyer and see what they say.

She doesn't watch much TV, she reads a lot of self healing books, she's had a rough life growing up with abusive parents, abusive boy friends (physically and sexually) and now with some of the damage I've caused (constant arguments, yelling, calling each other names, nothing physical, she feels I'm defensive and I admit I am but she is an emotionally bully so what do you expect), she has turned off her feelings towards me. I've always sort of been treated with distrust, like I was the ex that screwed around on her - it's been challenging over the years as she used to be completely insecure and jealous of me being around any other women. Now she couldn't care less what I do now that the switch is off. But, there is a part of me that believes there is a piece of her still caring for me buried deep inside but she won't let it see the light of day without some help.

I know I'll get a lot of flack for suggesting this but I was considering writing a letter to her. It'll either touch her or not. Anyone have any good letter examples they could share that would be helpful to get me going. I doubt the letter will make a dent but it may give her something to think about in the days that follow. It couldn't hurt at this point.

She is definitely the type to never make things easy - she's always extreme and has never accepted apologies even over simple disagreements and never takes ownership of her part in an argument. Even now all that I hear is blame on me - not one thing does she say is on her. This will be no different of course but in all honesty, I have not made much of an attempt to talk through the issues, pursue her respectfully etc. I simply did a 180 back in January and pulled back and just did my own things as much as I could. Tried to create space and some distance so that she might miss me - didn't work. So what she saw was me not making any attempt to work on our issues - and she did tell me that. Things weren't this bad January to March, it got real bad in April when she moved out of our bedroom to sleep in another room in our house. She feels I did not respect her wishes for space and move to another room, I made her do it. Right or wrong, this is how she see's it. I told her I didn't ask her to leave the room but she feels I should have left as I created the problems that got us here. I told her the issues she keeps mentioning are just a part of what got us here - it's not all my fault but she doesn't respond. This makes it all the more difficult. She see's herself as the victim.

Sorry, I'm rambling, tend to do that when I get a little emotional. Anyway, I would like to write a letter and get some things of my chest so if anyone has any good references for starting that would be appreciated. I will post anything I put together here before giving it to her - I may change my mind once I've written it.
 
#21 ·
I can 99.999% guarantee there is no other man. I work from home half the time and frankly there just isn't enough time for this to happen for her. I did ask earlier on and she said there is no one else and that it isn't about anyone else. I do believe her - she is a very proud person and she would likely tell me and justify it if she was with OM. So let's just remove that from the discussion.
Umm, that is just plain naïve. No one is saying there is another man, just that you should discretely check. Once you check and verify then it is fair to remove it from the discussion. Spend some time reading here and you'll find out that cheaters lie when confronted and cheaters seem to manage to find time in their busy schedules to screw someone else. Even if it is just a quickie in the family bathroom at walmart, or in a parking lot on their way to work, they manage to find a way. I hope you are correct, since that would make this situation a little easier to deal with. But just do a little digging first to make sure you know the situation. There's no point in fighting for a marriage if you don't know what you are fighting for.
 
#19 ·
First, find out asap if she is cheating. If she is, even emotionally, you are going to have an infinitely harder time reaching her than if she isn't. Is there a "friend" involved, even one you are sure she isn't cheating with (yet).

Second, learn the various TAM posters' backgrounds so you understand the context of the advice you receive: people who were cheated on, people who divorced, people who managed to stay married/improve their marriage.

My background: I'm a woman. I divorced my ex after almost 20 years together, similar to your situation. We are great parents, and had a relatively civilized divorce. No cheating, although there was a family friend who was my confidant who had me wondering if he wasn't doing "standard vulture" position. I dropped both him and my ex during the divorce, btw, which was critical to my own emotional development.

I'm very happily remarried now. My ex isn't.

I can tell you how to ensure a civilized divorce, if it comes to this. I can't tell you how to repair a distressed marriage, b/c I tried and failed. Others here can.

I can tell you why, IMO, my attempts to repair my first marriage failed if you think it helpful.

Over to you.
 
#20 ·
"She is definitely the type to never make things easy - she's always extreme and has never accepted apologies even over simple disagreements and never takes ownership of her part in an argument. Even now all that I hear is blame on me - not one thing does she say is on her."


Reasonable people accept apologies and can own their side of the street. Yes, in anger we all say things, but eventually we calm down and can discuss the situation. If your W cannot do that, has historically not done that, then her behavior now is just a further pushing of the boundaries (or lack thereof on your part).

You've been with her a long time, so this is your normal. Understood. But please know that "my way or the highway" is not healthy for anyone, and it sounds like you've lived your life under her thumb for the duration, if this is how she has acted. It sounds like it's been all about her for a very, very long time.

I'm very sorry. For the record, another M was involved in my situation too, though like you, I insisted every moment of her time was accounted for. Believe me, they find a way, and they find the time if they are determined. I was blown away when I learned (recently, within the last year, and it's been over since 2013) she had started dating the OM while we were still together.
 
#22 ·
1. Speak to an attorney. Find out where you stand. It will help you make more informed decisions regarding family, job, etc...

2. Offer counseling again....if she won't go, consider going yourself without her.

3. Find out if your state has "legal separation" or not....some do, some don't.

4. Do not move out of your house. Tell her she is free to go, but you aren't leaving your home. She should leave anyway....go find herself. She can get a full time job and figure out how to support herself during this process.

5. Cut off any credit cards with her name on them. Sometimes, when the one who leaves is not the wage earner they really run up the credit cards for the divorce, for living expenses, for fun, for dating, etc.... You will liable for that. Separation does not absolve anyone from marital debt....and the one who makes the money is the one who ends up having to pay the "marital" debt.

6. Mentally separate yourself from her. Physically move all her stuff out of the bedroom...make it your man cave. Consider her a roommate for now. Quit asking her anything, take care of stuff and don't ask her for anything. Keep it business, and about the kids.

7. Don't put anything in writing with her....until it goes thru a lawyer. Don't make promises verbally even. Just say that you aren't sure, you have to think about it, you need to run that by your attorney, etc...

8. Live like you are single. A single dad anyway. Do things with the kids. Have some fun when you can. Take the kids on a weekend trip. Don't go to couples events with her. Just say "no thanks, I'm not interested in that." Period. You don't have to explain things to her. If you feel the need to explain, just say something like "Well, if you don't want to BE a couple, then I really am not interested in doing things as a couple." The only family things you should do would be celebrations, church, etc...

9. If you decide to try to persuade her to keep working on it for six months (not a bad idea...if nothing else you will know that you've given it that last ditch effort) discuss "rules" but probably don't call it rules. Like "let's not consider this an in-house separation. Let's consider it trying to work our way back to each other." Then make it clear, and get her input, on what "working our way back to each other" looks like. For example, mandatory Date Night. She needs to state what she "needs" to make her life better. No dating anyone else. Possibly a marriage retreat weekend. Family Night w/kids. No relationship talk except on one night for one hour (or whatever). The point is to get both of you to remember why you got together, to get a glimpse of the future. To see if there is anything left.

10. See if she is interested in self-help. Read "The 5 Love Languages".

The point is, do what works for YOU. It's not about her wishes at this point. You've done what you can, you are not a schmuck, you tried.
 
#23 ·
Do not under any circumstances leave the home. You will become rootless and feel abandoned even with 50/50 custody. The husband always heals best when in the home with at least 50/50 custody.

Her ex stabbed you? What other hidden surprises will you run into if you divorce and she is living in the house and you come to pick up the kids.

Read this thread http://talkaboutmarriage.com/considering-divorce-separation/299497-actually-happening.html. While it turns out there was an OM that is not why I ask you to read it. He stayed in the home, he focused on the one daughter who was still home.
You will see how this rooted him and helped him heal.

Finally I read how great a mom she is, but is she nonforgiving with the children? Look again at the dynamics of interactions with them.
 
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#24 ·
Thanks for all the responses. I've actually done some snooping in the past. Went through her phone (before she changed the passcode), checked browser history, cell phone records etc. I work in IT so it's fairly easy things for me to check but I don't have access to her phone anymore. That said, I have never found anything to be suspicious about so is why I say 99.999%. Something would turn up somewhere. I feel pretty certain that another man isn't the issue right now - it's all just me :)

Well, I'm not going to go down without a fight. I won't move out and will tell her we can't afford it for one but two, it will do nothing to bring us closer together (I need to back this up with some stats or something). The only thing I can propose is a 6 month final trial and see where that takes us. At the very least we should do it for us and the kids. If we can't work it out by then, well it would seem we are done but, as per Texas Sunny, I do like your rules in point 9. I read something similar elsewhere where they use the marriage counselor to set the ground rules as mediator, set date nights, boundaries, not see anyone else etc. We both have to be on the same page as to why we are doing it or it won't work. Same goes if one of us was going to move out - the intent would have to be that we both want to reconcile and this is the way we are planning to do it. Just moving out without such a plan will do nothing but add further distance.

I'm out of ideas and must admit am getting to the end of my rope with all of this. It's been 6 months since we were last close and intimate. We were sleeping in the same bed with no contact at all until April but now we are roommates in the same house and things are just getting worse and I see no end in sight. The kids have been unaffected - they did ask mom why she was sleeping in the other room and she just said because she wanted to and they accepted it and have pretty much ignored it since. My wife and I don't fight at all anymore simply because we don't communicate much so the kids don't see any of that anymore - which they used to and did upset them. So in their minds, they probably think things are better. We've done a good job of keeping them in the dark otherwise.

Texas Sunny, your point 8 is something I have been considering as well. I didn't want to take a hard line yet on things like this as it was at least something we did in the presence of each other. I don't want to escalate things. That said, I have a couple of exams I need to cram for over the next few weeks so I'm going use that as an excuse to just pull back for a while.
 
#30 ·
Johnny,
So - your only chance at repair - is to accept you have zero, and I mean zero control over what she does.

If you really accept that, most of your stress will disappear.

If you are a good partner and you truly BELIEVE that, then you will know that if she leaves you will find someone else. Probably someone a LOT less difficult.

If however, you have some big flaws as a partner, than you ought follow Far's advice and work on YOU.

The next time your wife brings up a separation you should suggest a budgeting session, so she can figure out how expensive an apartment she can afford.

It will be a lame apartment UNLESS she works full time. But this conversation needs to be calm and focused on real numbers, not best case scenario foolishness.

Your wife LIKES combat. You clearly do not. So stop indulging her.

When someone is getting ugly - you can rope a dope pretty easy. It's not about you - so relax and:
1. Babe, I'm sorry your upset, wish I could help you, not sure what you want
2. I disagree (this is solely in response to glaringly untrue stuff she says ABOUT IMPORTANT STUFF).

When she demands and explanation - just repeat: When you are calm and can hear me - I can explain - but not now. You are seeking combat not, comprehension.
 
#25 ·
I think you should shift your mindset just a bit.

Do you know what type of man you want to be? I would have to assume the yelling, name calling, and other such stuff with your wife that you have discussed is not it. Instead, do the following:

Set about to be the man you want to be; understand what principles you want to live by; understand what you will not tolerate from yourself or your partner; then set out to be that man. Prioritize your kids and your own well being. I would recommend the book Hold On To Your N.U.T.'s by Wayne Levine. It is a great book for identifying and living a principled life. Do this while adamantly refusing to leave the home. She can get mad; scream; yell; threaten separation or divorce; etc. In the face of this, you calmly state that you will not be leaving, and if it is a separation she wants, she is free to do so. You still will not leave.

See how that works?

My bet is that she is emotionally lazy, with a general lack of introspection, combined with FOO issues, which leads to the unsavory recipe of blaming you for her lot in life.

If she wants to separate, she can do the work for it.

Your new favorite quotes should be the following:

"I don't want a separation. Why would I leave?"

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I am not okay with x (yelling, screaming, blameshifting, etc.)."

These statements, issued CALMLY, are effective at pointing her emotional vitriol back at her, rather than the more convenient option: you.

If she wants to talk like a lover and friend, or is upset, be a listening ear. Know and meet her emotional needs if she will allow it. For now.

Give yourself a deadline, though. It has already been going on six months. Maybe give it another six. If at the end of that six months this is not better, file and leave her.

However, be prepared. Often when a spouse becomes this reliant on blaming their problems on their significant other (when there is not another person involved), they will be shattered when you file. That would not surprise me a bit. She has become reliant on you to be there to be her emotional punching bag.

The problem is she is trying to escape herself, and she can't, so it must be your fault.

One more note on the above sentence. When someone hates themselves, pining after them makes it worse. Why? Because they do not respect themselves, therefore, someone who chases or pines for them does not deserve respect, either.

It is a nasty situation, and I found myself in a similar situation at the end of 2013. We are great now. But it took a year to stabilize, and another year to really get to good. It started with me improving myself, enforcing boundaries, and knowing/meeting her needs.
 
#31 ·
I posted this in another thread, but few marriages experience a separation without some kind of catalyzing event. If it's not an affair, you need to discover what it is.
This is simply not true.

People reach their limits for a lot of reasons, sometimes it's a "Catalyzing event", but just as often it's just an accumulation of unhappiness brought about by things that have never been properly addressed.

A lot of folks use their own experiences to judge the situations of others without taking into consideration that the results might be the same..a demand for separation... but the reasons can be very different.

Not everyone who is unhappy and requests a separation or divorce is involved with another person. Even if you can personally relate to infidelity, doesn't mean it's the cause of someone else's situation.
 
#28 ·
Why did you bring up what her ex-boyfriend did to you? Do you feel that she owes you because of that? Was he there gunning for her and you're just the poor putz who opened the door?

BTW, don't move out. She'll throw the kids into the mix to guilt you. Let it roll off your back. She wants space - she's got the whole wide world to make hers.
 
#29 ·
I will try to keep this brief. I was a wife that left a husband that loved me very, very much, after 20 years and two beautiful babies.
I'm replying to say, I had been telling him for more than a decade that I was very unhappy, and the couple of adjustments I needed him to make for it to improve. He was pretty sure, no matter what I said, I would never leave. I spent the last 3 years still in the marriage, grieving the loss and failure of it. He didn't notice. By the time he did, I was done. No matter what he said or did at that point, it didn't matter. I wasn't mean, vindictive or anything. I was just simply done. We have been apart for a couple years now, and I'm remarried. He is still in love with me. I'm afraid that is the way things will end for you. I hope not, but it may be the case. I'm sorry for you all...I wish you the best!!!
 
#32 · (Edited)
I have not read through the thread yet, but my initial thought is this...if SHE wants to end the marriage and separate, then SHE needs to be the one to leave. (and yes, its appropriate that SHE is the one out of the bedroom!) Also, she MUST get a full time job! Seriously, how does she think this world works?? She wants to end it, then tell her she gets a full time job and get the fvck out. If she gets a job, that will tell you just how serious she is about this.

Ok now I have read the whole thing. OP...you really must pull your head out of the sand when it comes to her potential cheating. If you go through this forum, and read the threads posted by a spouse who is distraught about their partner wanting to end the marriage, you will see the same exact thing that YOU wrote here...their denial that the spouse is cheating because they "dont have time", and the majority of these people end up coming back to update that, SURPRISE...he/she was cheating. Now having said that, I am not saying that your wife is cheating. There are people who end up right where your wife is..DONE...and there is no other person involved at all, myself being one of them. I am saying that you cannot dismiss this possibility. You need to know what it is you are dealing with. Her changing and not sharing her phone passcode is a HUGE red flag, by the way.

So bottom line...you stay put. She gets a full time job. She moves out.
 
#53 ·
Also, she MUST get a full time job! Seriously, how does she think this world works?? She wants to end it, then tell her she gets a full time job and get the fvck out. If she gets a job, that will tell you just how serious she is about this.
^^^THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. Also, go consult a lawyer NOW. TO me, personally, if you start hinting at something I'm going to take you at your word. I'd be at an attorney, YESTERDAY, seeing where you stand financially, working out a separation agreement and seeing what alimony is like. You could be paying all of your bills, all of her bills and child support because you let this go.

Operate like she KNOWS exactly what she is doing and get prepared. Yes, you can try to fix things, but it may entail divorce.

Be prepared.
 
#34 ·
As Unicus pointed out, there was no single event. My wife has been complaining for a few years about things, that combined with a few really bad arguments and some recent events (end of last year) combined with financial stress and things got worse when she moved into the other room. She just says she lost respect for me as a result and is now completely emotionally shut off to me.

There is no way for me to know for certain if there is someone else but I have checked up on her and not found anything. She locked her phone after I caught her going through my phone in the middle of the night back in January. We both changed our passcodes after that. We both just want privacy. I admit it was a reg flag for me at first but I don't believe it's for any other reason than for privacy. She complained once that I track her on the iPhone (using Find my iPhone) - our entire family uses it to find our phones if they've been left behind somewhere but you can use it to track your kids and spouse. My W disabled the app and changed her passcode a few months into our breakdown but not at the beginning. I did the same. Like I said, I can't be 100% sure but I have taken reasonable steps to look into it and have found nothing. I don't want to be constantly worrying and checking up on her - that will drive me crazy. If there is someone else it will come out sooner or later and at the point it is what it is. Nothing I can do about it if i can't find out about it.

Like I said, at this point, I think I'm just going to write a letter putting it all on the line. If it strikes a cord with her hear then great, if not, at least I tried. I never did do this in the beginning of our breakdown. I didn't pursue or try and talk to her, I did a complete 180 back at the beginning and that was at a time, according to her, that she was looking for me to try and connect with her. Maybe she is just guilting me and nothing I could have done would have made a difference but I do feel I need to give this a try - to know that I did try without reserve. If she throws it in my face I'll have a very clear and real answer as to how she truly feels about me and I'll need to deal with it accordingly. I can't even begin to know where to start with such a letter though - I just know it has to be from the heart.
 
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