This is definitely most likely the end - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 04:12 PM Thread Starter
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This is definitely most likely the end

Quite some time has passed since my last post here – a bit more than four months.

If you want to read up, please go to this thread:

This is the end - I believe

Currently I am very depressed with my situation. I don’t know if what I want is right or wrong or if I want the right thing or if I am blinding myself and deceiving myself with logic instead of feelings.

My parents and my siblings fully support and encourage me but I am so paranoid I fear that they may have a hidden agenda or are just telling me what they think I want to hear. I assume – in my clearer moments – that this thought is stupid, but as I said, it is a difficult time.

But then I decided to seek help again where I know that I will find it and decided to write my feelings down. In preparation I read my last thread (see above link) to make sure I continue at the correct moment in time for you.

Reading my old thread was exactly what I needed. To read through it was very spirit lifting. The things that worried me five months ago have not changed.

Two weeks after my last post I have hiked through France for 32 days and after that I saw clearly. The common ground is not there anymore, the mindset is totally different and I can neither cope with her (controlling) behavior nor can I keep on pretending to be someone else just to please her.

I am determined to leave her now once and for all. I want to be free of her. I would like a friendly relationship and a good parenting arrangement, but I want to be free from her “spell” (for lack of any better word). But still I love her.

I am tormented with guilt and insecurity about if I should really leave. By reading the things I wrote five months ago I could reflect on the current situation and see that nothing has changed. Things actually got a bit worse.

I have started my new job 200 miles away from home. Fortunately, I can work from home on Fridays with no questions asked. I am sure I can work more often from home when it is needed (by me).

Why is this important? When I leave, I will buy a flat close to my kids. I will live there at least four nights out of 7 every week. This will make living at my working location cheaper (3 days a week, but I will travel about twice a month so I will need an average of 8 nights in a motel every month).

Most importantly, by getting a flat close by the boys can drop in Friday through Sunday, they can stay over night and I am capable of doing things on short notice with them. It is also possible to go to the movies on Monday evenings or things like that. That is important.

I will also be able to keep an eye on my wife and help out with the house if this is needed.

I hope the divorce will be peaceful. I am fully prepared to let my wife stay in our house for another five years while I pay the mortgage. Then the boys are grown up and we can sell the house. This should than pay for a small flat for my wife so that she is financially secure for the rest of her life.

Well, that is the plan.

Only I need more courage. I have been delaying the separation ever since my return from France on June 4th because

- I wanted to start my new job without distraction (1st of July)
- my wife needed to finish her re-education (Aug 5th). She would never have passed the exams if I separated prior to the tests.
- my parents wanted to see the grand children (did Aug 13 – 15) – who could deny them that?
- we had summer vacation – probably the last one with the elder son (last week)

Now it is time but I cannot summon the courage yet.

I fear her reaction, that I cannot handle it. I fear that I am not strong enough to actually tell her it is over.

She thinks we are progressing. On Sunday she told me day to day life was much better now. It is – for her – because after France I went into a kind of “ignore it because it will be over soon”-mode. I don’t react to most of her behavior anymore. I just try to kill the time and avoid conflicts. Btw. this strategy is a conversation-killer because almost every subject is emotionally charged for her.

I am currently going through a very tough period. The only joy is the time I spend with my boys. I silently cried during my vacation because I know that the elder son will not come along for a vacation for quite a while. He does not even want to come along in Aug ’17 for a two week trip to the Western U.S. for the eclipse! So sad! On the other hand – my vision of me with my younger son riding in a convertible through the U.S., that is a very happy thought. We’ll have so much fun and enjoy ourselves! - I cannot imagine having any fun with my wife joining us.

The last vacation proved this again. She is very aggressive and uncertain at the same time. Always complaining about things instead of seeing the beauty of the world.

Also she always blames me and the boys that she cannot follow our discussions. Well, doing higher math is difficult, yes, but we also talk video games. Even though neither she nor I play them, I can discuss them with the boys. She just says she doesn’t know the games so we keep her from joining our discussion by discussing those games. That’s rubbish, she just needs to listen, pay attention and then she will be up to speed pretty soon.

I know I want to leave and I have to leave, but how do I get the courage to actually do it? I can give you a really long list of things that just drive me crazy that I will not be able to fix and that she does not even acknowledge to be potentially questionable, let alone dead wrong. But I still love her and don’t know if I can actually tell her that I will leave.

I know I have been crying and whining a lot on this forum. When I decided to post today, I wanted to describe everything again. But then I read my last thread. It opened my eyes again and helped me see things clearer.

I hope I can work his out very soon.

If any of you have some good advice on how to summon the courage to say goodbye – I really appreciate any suggestion.

Regards
asdfjkl

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post #2 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-30-2016, 08:17 PM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Tell her you've tried hard but it's just not working.

Be prepared for her to try everything to make that not happen. She will probably make lots of promises she won't keep.

If you're determined this is what you want then you're going to be really strong and not backslide because there's nothing easy about the process. It's tough and there's just no getting around that.

Good luck!
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post #3 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 01:55 AM Thread Starter
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Thank you.

The tough part is that when Inthinknabiut my situation Indonclearly understand that there is only one course of action. I then believe that this is actually best for both of us.
But as soon as Inlet my (intellectual) guard down, the feeling of doing something evil, bad, egocentric etc. creeps in. I start to waiver again and be insecure. Furthermore the fear of being the mean guy is terrible. I am afraid of what my children will say. I am not sure they - especially the younger boy (15) - will understand. When left for three weeks, he asked "why can't you two just stop arguing?"

All of this makes me feel very unhappy and insecure and depressed. I know I have to face the truth, but I just can't bring myself to say it out loud.

It's terrible.

Regards

Asdfjkl
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post #4 of 29 (permalink) Old 08-31-2016, 01:47 PM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

It sounds like your situation is improving. You are clearly indecisive about whether to divorce or not. I'm sure your children are playing a big part in your indecisiveness. I suggest you stay in the marriage until your children are grown. That's the least selfish choice you can make. I doubt you will be happier living alone.
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post #5 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-06-2016, 12:54 PM Thread Starter
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Quote:
Originally Posted by Married27years View Post
I'm sure your children are playing a big part in your indecisiveness.
Yes

Quote:
I suggest you stay in the marriage until your children are grown. That's the least selfish choice you can make. I doubt you will be happier living alone.
Well, I don't think this is an option. In my marriage I have come to a Point where - even though I deeply feel for her - the walking on egg-shells, trying to avoid emotionally charged topics, always wondering how to predict her reactions, how to behave in order to minimize criticism is just too much.

Let me give you just one brand new example which I am thankful for because it illustrates my Problem quite well.

I am currently on a Business trip in Spain. The hotel is directly at the beach.
So yesterday evening I laid on the beach in the sand and talked on the phone for one hour to my sister and another hour to my brother. Then it was already 9:30 p.m. and the beach was basically deserted.
I called my wife. I used headphones for all calls at the beach.

Her first question was "Where are you?"
I replied: "At the beach, lying in the sand."
She: "Why?"
I "Why not? it's nice."
She "Why are you not in the hotel?"
I "Because it is nicer here."
She "But you always call from the Hotel. Why do you change your habits?"
I "Because I felt like being at the beach and it is nicer than in the Hotel"

Then she said that a women in the background was so loud that she could not hear me. And the waves make such a noise that she can't hear me either.
I told her that I don't know what to do about it, I don't think it is loud. I asked her what she expects me to do. No real reply. Only after the second attempt by her tellling me that she can't hear me the line - on her side alone - got really bad. I did not have any reception problems. Suddenly, the line went dead.

I immidiaely called my sister to check on noise levels and she told me there was no problem. Waves are barely audible and background talking could be heard but at a very low Level that did not intefere with our talking. There was no bad reception either.

I might be paranoid, but the circumstances point to the fact that my wife - again - could not accept that I had chosen to do something outside of her circle of influence. Laying in the sand of a beach does not - in my opinion - pose any threat, show disrespect or could actually viewed as negative.

She wanted me to return to the Hotel. Why? Because she (subconciously) wants to be in control. I am not allowed to do what I want, even in such meaningless, simple issues like whare would I be when calling her.

Of course I went to the Hotel because I did not want a confrontation knowing that this will only be a Problem for another 96 hours.

Maybe this example shows you why i cannot Keep up the facade anymore and need to go.

What do you think?

Regards

Markus
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post #6 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 06:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Three hours ago I moved out.
I took the blame for everything to make the exit easier. I did not want any fight about guillt.

My wife took the news very badly.
She told me it was also her fault, but later on it was me again who did not open up, did not stand up against her, did not suffer through her outbreaks in order to make her understand everything ...

I then talked to each of my kids alone (from youngest to oldest).
My wife interruppted this with each kid, I stood my ground and asked her politely but determined to leave the room. She did each time.

My daughter (25) took it badly first but seems to understand after I had talked to her. Her biggest worry is that my wife will not hold together and that it would be my daughter's problem to keep the household running and to support her mother. I told her that my wife can be strong if needed. She will get over it.
My daughter also told me in a text after I left that it seems like I have chosen the easy way. I told her that it is not easy for me to be seperated from my three kids most of the time. Even though usually all of us were together only during the two meals during the day - breakfast and dinner - I will terribly miss these and my children.

The youngest (15) does not understand.
The elder son (17) said he did not see it coming, but it does not surprise him much. He offered me five drawings he did during our vacation two weeks ago. I told him I will hang them when I have my flat. Now I will go from hotel to hotel and am afraid of loosing them.

Tomorrow I will go to have dinner with the boys at a kebap-place so I can talk with them or just chat. Whatevver they want.
After that I promised my wife that the both of us will go for a walk and talk.

At the moment, I feel as if I had made the biggest mistake in my life. Even though I recall all my reasons - which are right - I still feel like I betrayed my wife. The person I love and care for but with whom I cannot live together anymore. We have become too different. She claims that it only needs a little more work, but I have tried for months and she has tried too (she is more open and has gotten two friends to hang out with from time to time - but towards me her behaviour got more and more agressive) but I have finally given up. She cannot accept my behaviour and I cannot live with her reaction to my behaviour. I did not tell her that I cannot tolerate her behaviour either (I saw no point in making things more difficult). But I am not willing anymore to sacrafice my personal freedom completely. As a friend once put it, "I also have the right to be happy". My councellor also tells me that sometimes I need to be egoistic.

Leaving today did not come on a wimp. I had been thinking about the problems between my wife and me ever since May last year. Before that I felt unhappier and unhappier, but could not put a name to the problem. I have left for three weeks in March which felt good, but I returned for good reasons.

Now I decided to finally break this routine of endless self-sacrifice. My councellor also said that it seems that my need to make my wife happy is like an addiction. I cannot live without her being happy, but making her happy is almost impossible if I don't suppress all my needs all the time.

The only way to get rid of an addiction is withdrawel. But it seems so wrong. I am so unsure. Have I done the right thing. Her sweet talking about we could try again - this time even harder - my feelings for her and the knowledge that I will now loose her. It is just terrible.

I did not understand why people stayed in bad relationships until about one year ago. Now I do not know if my feeling of regret, loss, guilt is just a normal reaction because of the gravity of my decision or is it an objective truth that will tell me what I did was wrong? I am in danger of going back. But this would be an illogical move!

It is very hard not to take the phone and call her and telling her everything was a mistake. I hope it wasn't.

I hope I had not pushed myself into something that was easier (escape) than doing the right thing (stay and work).

Oh my, It is so confusing.

Regards

asdfjkl
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post #7 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-09-2016, 06:26 PM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Now that you've pulled the plug you cannot go back.

If you do she'll realize that you're not serious about leaving and she'll be indescribably more difficult to deal with.

You've started down a one way street and there's no turning around you need to see it through.
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post #8 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 01:27 AM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Well you've done the hardest part. Do NOT let her talk you back. Nothing will change and you will be even more miserable, having to work back up to this point all over again. Make sure you create space for your kids in your new place, its important for them so that they can feel that it is their home as well. They will go through an adjustment period, its important that you be completely honest with them about everything and be sure to answer all of their questions. You and your STBX were not giving them a good example of a healthy relationship...they are surprised by you leaving because I'm sure they thought you never would, based on your history.

You have done the right thing, stop with the guilt. Your wife sounds miserable, you should have left quite a while ago.

Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you.

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post #9 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 04:31 AM Thread Starter
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Thank you.

Despite her usual threats that if I leave she will break all contact and move away her current line is:
"I will support you, I will wait for you, I will help you find an appartment etc." Interesting change of heart.

I feel guilty. My younger son (15) allegedly did not sleep at all tonight. I cannot imagine that but I will talk to him.

I am not moving back but at the moment my house is the only place to watch my son's favourite shows.
My sons and I are going to watch an episode of Battle Bots today and after that one episode of House M.D. with the younger one.
Then I accepted to be there for dinner as well, after that I will leave for work and a family birthday. I will not return before Sunday evening. I will not do anything then. Only on Monday I will bring the older son (17) to the airport, he has a school trip.

The younger - as expected - does not (yet) understand why I cannot live at home anymore. I tried to explain it to him and during our discussion we touched on a few examples of the problems. He got those but still thinks that I should try harder.

I had a talk with my wife yesterday evening alone in a quiet place. I could not tell her that it is completely over, I said I have no master plan but for the next months there will be no activities together with her. I will be there for our children, I will take care of her but I need quiet and space. She understand (at least that's what she says) and wants to help me find an appartment.
She asked for our "special needs" and I replied that sex is not going to happen. I learnt this lesson and will not do it again. She did not like that answer.

But during this discussion again it was obivous that in her eyes I need to shange. I said several times that there are some points I don't want to change and she claimed that she accepts that - and already has accepted most of these. I can tell you that she has accepted almost nothing so far. Up until day before yesterday my behaviour was "irratic, unreliable, stupid, selfish, childish etc." I have to grant her that the selfish part has some merit. I need to be selfish in order to save myself from getting lost. But believe me, I did not take much to earn her wrath from time to time.

She offered that I could move back until I found a flat. Although this sounds very tempting (I would take my own room) I will decline. If I am too close, i am again not free. As tough as it is for me and my kids, I will not go back.

I have not yet spoken with my family. I just did not feel like it. I am not sure what I feel and I have no idea what to tell them when they ask. They know that this was supposed to be the "big" weekend and I am sur they are anxious to know if I did it or not and how i feel, but I am not ready to discuss this because i don't know for myself.

Interstingly, I did not cry much and did not feel sorry very often. I did not feel elated either. More like a bit unsettled and empty. I am expecting the gravity of what I have done to kick in any moment but nothing happens.

Yesterday I went for a 6 mile run and even then I did not think much about the seperation. I just enjoyeed the run, the view and thought about some work-issues. Strange.

I went to buy some new running shoes in France (it's only 80 miles), knowing that my wife likes to go there too. And I thought, well, this will hurt her but I am doing nothing wrong. I go there because I want to and while that might be a problem for her, this potential problem is not mine. Sounds like a start

Regards

asdfjkl

P.S.: Writing this down - as always - helps a lot
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post #10 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 07:37 AM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

I know that was a difficult thing to do.

You are feeling unsettled because it's a major life change. That's complicated by the fact that you are a Giver. I was as well. Those of us who give at any cost find there's a high price to pay for that because we get lost in the process.

You're on the right track.

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post #11 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 09:30 AM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfjkl View Post
Despite her usual threats that if I leave she will break all contact and move away her current line is:
"I will support you, I will wait for you, I will help you find an appartment etc." Interesting change of heart.
Been there unfortunately. She's giving what you are asking for in the hopes that you will suddenly see how nice she is and question your decision to leave as well as fear on her part, she'll do anything to stay connected even if it means helping you reach your goal which at the moment is to get away from her, as ironic as that may seem.

Once she accepts that you're not coming back you are going to see the really nasty side of her, so expect it and be prepared. It probably will stay that way (with some back and forth waffling on her part)until months or years after the divorce is final, and then, and only then will the emotions start to cool and you can once again explore the possibility of a civil, even friendly relationship with your former spouse.
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post #12 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 09:55 AM
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Stop interacting with her. Stop trying t to take care of her, she doesn't need you. She is manipulative and you are weak. You need to come to terms with your own decision and the reality of your situation. She won't until you do. She doesn't give a sh!t about you but likes having you around to control, bully, use and manipulate.

You will not get stronger until you focus on yourself instead of her. Your life is not ending, just changing.
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post #13 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 10:06 AM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

^^This too.

Also I fixed this for you:

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfjkl View Post
I said I have no master plan but for the next months there will never again be activities together with her. I will always be there for our children, but I will no longer take care of her other than financially but even that's not going to last forever so start looking for a job
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post #14 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 09:22 PM
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdfjkl View Post
Yes



Well, I don't think this is an option. In my marriage I have come to a Point where - even though I deeply feel for her - the walking on egg-shells, trying to avoid emotionally charged topics, always wondering how to predict her reactions, how to behave in order to minimize criticism is just too much.

Let me give you just one brand new example which I am thankful for because it illustrates my Problem quite well.

I am currently on a Business trip in Spain. The hotel is directly at the beach.
So yesterday evening I laid on the beach in the sand and talked on the phone for one hour to my sister and another hour to my brother. Then it was already 9:30 p.m. and the beach was basically deserted.
I called my wife. I used headphones for all calls at the beach.

Her first question was "Where are you?"
I replied: "At the beach, lying in the sand."
She: "Why?"
I "Why not? it's nice."
She "Why are you not in the hotel?"
I "Because it is nicer here."
She "But you always call from the Hotel. Why do you change your habits?"
I "Because I felt like being at the beach and it is nicer than in the Hotel"

Then she said that a women in the background was so loud that she could not hear me. And the waves make such a noise that she can't hear me either.
I told her that I don't know what to do about it, I don't think it is loud. I asked her what she expects me to do. No real reply. Only after the second attempt by her tellling me that she can't hear me the line - on her side alone - got really bad. I did not have any reception problems. Suddenly, the line went dead.

I immidiaely called my sister to check on noise levels and she told me there was no problem. Waves are barely audible and background talking could be heard but at a very low Level that did not intefere with our talking. There was no bad reception either.

I might be paranoid, but the circumstances point to the fact that my wife - again - could not accept that I had chosen to do something outside of her circle of influence. Laying in the sand of a beach does not - in my opinion - pose any threat, show disrespect or could actually viewed as negative.

She wanted me to return to the Hotel. Why? Because she (subconciously) wants to be in control. I am not allowed to do what I want, even in such meaningless, simple issues like whare would I be when calling her.

Of course I went to the Hotel because I did not want a confrontation knowing that this will only be a Problem for another 96 hours.

Maybe this example shows you why i cannot Keep up the facade anymore and need to go.

What do you think?

Regards

Markus
I think you are already a very smart man and will be very happy to be out from under this controlling person. God speed!
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post #15 of 29 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: This is definitely most likely the end

I hope I will be happy. Thank you.

It is very hard to read her texts (I don't read them right away but once in a while I have to catch up since we do have children together).

She is very understanding and reminds me of the good times we had. We did have those and it brings tears to my eyes to read this.

I read a lot of Support from all of you and I think I believe I am doing the right Thing. But is so hard to listen to all the promises of things getting better if we only try and that I was right with almost everything I said.
I wish there would be hope, I believe there is None. But keeping this believe is so terribly hard.
When I remember how we entered the duch beach for the first time, or how happy she was when she took of with a plane for the first time. All These things will be gone.

I do miss my Kids but I don't want to herass them. They are 15 and 17 and want to be kept alone most of the time. How do I Keep a Balance between keeping up to date / being interestend and just annoying them with my texts, ideas or suggestions of things to do?

Yesterday I fell sick. Doctor says I caught a Virus. I believe it is just the stress that has now broken through. I stay in bad (not at home) for the next two to three days.

I have lost so much. It is hard to Keep up the believe that it was worth the gain. I know I have to suck through this for some time, but that knowledge does not make it easier.

What if I am wrong?

Regards

asdfjkl
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