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post #16 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 07:11 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Her mother... is diagnosed as being delusional, bi-polar .... I suspect my wife might have borderline personality disorder or maybe that she is just modeling her mom
537, I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of my bipolar-1 foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found many clear differences between these two disorders. If you're interested, I describe those behavioral differences in my post at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences.

If the BPD behaviors in that post seem more relevant to your W's situation, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, 537.

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post #17 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 07:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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537, I lived with my BPDer exW for 15 years and I've taken care of my bipolar-1 foster son for longer than that. Moreover, I took both of them to a long series of psychologists for 15 years. Based on those experiences, I have found many clear differences between these two disorders. If you're interested, I describe those behavioral differences in my post at 12 Bipolar/BPD Differences.

If the BPD behaviors in that post seem more relevant to your W's situation, I would suggest you take a quick look at my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. If that description rings many bells, I would be glad to join the other respondents in discussing them with you. Take care, 537.
From reading that, I would say my wife is BPD, if she is either. Her rage comes on in a few seconds. It's confusing for me because the rage is brought on by things that might elicit a somewhat bothered response by someone else, but her response is extreme. So I can't say that it's completely unprovoked but it is over the top. I've read other comments from people describing BPD aggression as similar, were the recipient of the wrath assumes they are deserving, but the punishment does not fit the crime, so to say.

For example, I'll sometime scroll through facebook on my phone prior to going to bed, her eyes are shut, shes facing the opposite wall, my small screen should bother her. Wrong! She will completely flip out if I do this. She has whipped her entire body around and on top of me in a flash and ripped my phone from my hands on three occasions. Is that a just response to your spouse having his smart phone screen on for 5-10 additional minutes after lights out?

I have to edit what I say around her constantly for fear that I will hurt her feelings or offend her in some way. Once she has hurt feeling or is offended, my night is pretty much egg shells going forward. Tip toeing through conversations like a mouse. She definitely isolates me, is jealous of her sisters when I talk about them, and has a sense of entitlement, like I should do all for her. Funny thing is, I've done a lot for her, and she asks what I've done to fight for her in the past 2 years.

Her childhood was fine from what I've been told. She has always said it was great. Dad was always working or golfing, which she wasn't to keen on but he was never abusive in any way. So without any childhood trauma, I don't know if it's BPD.

Her mom is extreme though. We had to commit her 4 times in the past 4 years. Thinks she is dying almost everyday and tells my wife that. Tried suicide 3-4 times, pill and alcohol. got a DUI 3 years ago. I think they finally got her on the right combination of meds the last time we committed her 2 months ago, thank god! The father basically completely refuses to manage his wife and leaves my wife's sister to do it. My wife being so emotionally sensitive and loving her mom, takes it extremely hard, for 4 years.

I feel bad for her but she is 32 and has a masters degree; she should have what it takes to defend herself from these emotions and the world in general and what it can through at a person. I've been through a lot, I was resilient and overcame. Other people have been through nazi death camps and the like, they stayed resilient and overcame. I don't know.

Last edited by 53791263; 11-15-2016 at 07:49 PM.
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post #18 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-15-2016, 10:36 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Her childhood was fine from what I've been told.... So without any childhood trauma, I don't know if it's BPD.
Having a good childhood does not rule out BPD. About 30% of those with full-blown BPD report that they had good childhoods without abuse or abandonment. The current theory is that BPD arises from genetics and/or childhood abuse or abandonment. It therefore is believed that genetics alone may be sufficient.

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Her mom is extreme though. We had to commit her 4 times in the past 4 years.
Did her mother's extreme behavior appear only in the past five years? I ask because, given that she was diagnosed as being bipolar, she likely acquired that disorder by her mid-twenties. That is, she likely was experiencing mood swings when parenting your W during her childhood -- and thus may have been emotionally abusive.

Another reason I am asking about the mother is your statement that "Her mother's side of the family has always been a little eccentric and odd." A related issue is whether the mother treated your W in an invalidating manner during her childhood. If she has any siblings, are they in good mental health?
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post #19 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 12:40 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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From reading that, I would say my wife is BPD, if she is either. Her rage comes on in a few seconds. It's confusing for me because the rage is brought on by things that might elicit a somewhat bothered response by someone else, but her response is extreme. So I can't say that it's completely unprovoked but it is over the top. I've read other comments from people describing BPD aggression as similar, were the recipient of the wrath assumes they are deserving, but the punishment does not fit the crime, so to say.

For example, I'll sometime scroll through facebook on my phone prior to going to bed, her eyes are shut, shes facing the opposite wall, my small screen should bother her. Wrong! She will completely flip out if I do this. She has whipped her entire body around and on top of me in a flash and ripped my phone from my hands on three occasions. Is that a just response to your spouse having his smart phone screen on for 5-10 additional minutes after lights out?

I have to edit what I say around her constantly for fear that I will hurt her feelings or offend her in some way. Once she has hurt feeling or is offended, my night is pretty much egg shells going forward. Tip toeing through conversations like a mouse. She definitely isolates me, is jealous of her sisters when I talk about them, and has a sense of entitlement, like I should do all for her. Funny thing is, I've done a lot for her, and she asks what I've done to fight for her in the past 2 years.

Her childhood was fine from what I've been told. She has always said it was great. Dad was always working or golfing, which she wasn't to keen on but he was never abusive in any way. So without any childhood trauma, I don't know if it's BPD.

Her mom is extreme though. We had to commit her 4 times in the past 4 years. Thinks she is dying almost everyday and tells my wife that. Tried suicide 3-4 times, pill and alcohol. got a DUI 3 years ago. I think they finally got her on the right combination of meds the last time we committed her 2 months ago, thank god! The father basically completely refuses to manage his wife and leaves my wife's sister to do it. My wife being so emotionally sensitive and loving her mom, takes it extremely hard, for 4 years.

I feel bad for her but she is 32 and has a masters degree; she should have what it takes to defend herself from these emotions and the world in general and what it can through at a person. I've been through a lot, I was resilient and overcame. Other people have been through nazi death camps and the like, they stayed resilient and overcame. I don't know.
Did the Mother only start having these issue after she was an adult because if not I doubt her childhood was as idealistic as she says. It is hard for a child to feel safe under these conditions. Regardless mental illness can be genetic.

You are asking for a hard life if you stay. People with BPD are very emotionally dangerous. It is also very possible she doesn't have the skills to be married. If this was another form of mental illness no one would expect the person with the disability to get married and would feel that this is almost unfair to them. It is just because personality disorders are so misunderstood that it isn't thought of this way. Imagine if she had mental retardation for instance, though it is sad I don't suspect many would look on favorably at a marriage or relationship that was exacerbating this condition, which inevitable would happen if the person with the retardation was to try to push themselves beyond their ability in order to maintain their relationship. In the same way your relationship may be exacerbating her emotional disability. She really is not capable of hanging in there with you emotionally. She can only do this for short periods of time. Maybe it is unfair of you to expect her to, to push her beyond her emotional ability.

Also for you this is as risky as being married to a hardcore drug abuser. Even in remission there is a great risk.

Let's switch this around. Why do you want to stay?

Last edited by sokillme; 11-16-2016 at 12:51 AM.
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post #20 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 12:54 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

Ugh. What a mess.
When people threaten suicide there are two possibilities: 1) She was suicidal. In which case you should have had her committed, because I imagine blowing her brains out would have a greater affect on her employability than being committed. 2) She was manipulating you. But you will never be sure of that, so again the only option is have her committed.

And yeah, file for divorce and the go back to counseling. You are staying with someone who brings out the worst in you. You need to examine why you are allowing someone to do this to you. And whatever you do, please don't have children with her. She is not your "one" but you would be attached to her for life if you had kids with her. Don't. Just don't.
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post #21 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 03:42 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

She is in no condition, mentally or otherwise, to have children. Not until she's been healthy for a few YEARS at least.

You seem like a bright man. You're not being very cerebral about what it takes to be a good mother to your future children.

She's not it right now. There are far too many other issues she needs to resolve first. Its sad but you can help very little. She needs to help herself, if she even wants to.

Threatening to have sex with a coworker was very immature of you. I realize you were angry from her spitting, which is also childish and disrespectful. Your job is to remain calm under pressure and LEAVE the immediate area if she starts to get belligerent.

Personally, I don't see much to salvage here. She has no respect for her own well-being. It's not your job to make up for that.

"If you deliberately plan on being less than you are capable of being, then I warn you that you'll be unhappy for the rest of your life."

~ Abraham Maslow
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post #22 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 06:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Ugh. What a mess.
When people threaten suicide there are two possibilities: 1) She was suicidal. In which case you should have had her committed, because I imagine blowing her brains out would have a greater affect on her employability than being committed. 2) She was manipulating you. But you will never be sure of that, so again the only option is have her committed.

And yeah, file for divorce and the go back to counseling. You are staying with someone who brings out the worst in you. You need to examine why you are allowing someone to do this to you. And whatever you do, please don't have children with her. She is not your "one" but you would be attached to her for life if you had kids with her. Don't. Just don't.
Yes, I'm definitely going back to counseling to find out why I allowed this to happen so that it does not happen a second time.
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post #23 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 06:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Having a good childhood does not rule out BPD. About 30% of those with full-blown BPD report that they had good childhoods without abuse or abandonment. The current theory is that BPD arises from genetics and/or childhood abuse or abandonment. It therefore is believed that genetics alone may be sufficient.

Did her mother's extreme behavior appear only in the past five years? I ask because, given that she was diagnosed as being bipolar, she likely acquired that disorder by her mid-twenties. That is, she likely was experiencing mood swings when parenting your W during her childhood -- and thus may have been emotionally abusive.

Another reason I am asking about the mother is your statement that "Her mother's side of the family has always been a little eccentric and odd." A related issue is whether the mother treated your W in an invalidating manner during her childhood. If she has any siblings, are they in good mental health?
The extreme behavior issues only started 5 years ago. It started as a fixation with her mouth, then constant dentist shopping for unneeded surgeries. Now she believe she is in unrealistic pain and says things about her mouth that are impossible. It's very, very, very bad.

From what I've been able to uncover, the family moved into a new house every 2 years for the past 40 years. I know it sounds crazy, but I asked my mother in-laws sister a few months ago how often they moved, and she told me they've moved 20 times. My mother in-law is 65, so if they bought their first house at 18, that's move every 2.5 years. Each new home was in the same school district, all within 5 miles of the last. Maybe these moves were the result of bi-polar mood swings and the husbands reaction to make them go away? My father in-law is totally checked out now, couldn't care less about his wife. He spends all day and afternoon at the golf course while she gets drunk and goes wild with suicidal ideations. Then my wife and wifes sister have to intervene to save their mother, over and over and over again.

Last edited by 53791263; 11-16-2016 at 08:00 AM.
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post #24 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 06:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Did the Mother only start having these issue after she was an adult because if not I doubt her childhood was as idealistic as she says. It is hard for a child to feel safe under these conditions. Regardless mental illness can be genetic.

You are asking for a hard life if you stay. People with BPD are very emotionally dangerous. It is also very possible she doesn't have the skills to be married. If this was another form of mental illness no one would expect the person with the disability to get married and would feel that this is almost unfair to them. It is just because personality disorders are so misunderstood that it isn't thought of this way. Imagine if she had mental retardation for instance, though it is sad I don't suspect many would look on favorably at a marriage or relationship that was exacerbating this condition, which inevitable would happen if the person with the retardation was to try to push themselves beyond their ability in order to maintain their relationship. In the same way your relationship may be exacerbating her emotional disability. She really is not capable of hanging in there with you emotionally. She can only do this for short periods of time. Maybe it is unfair of you to expect her to, to push her beyond her emotional ability.

Also for you this is as risky as being married to a hardcore drug abuser. Even in remission there is a great risk.

Let's switch this around. Why do you want to stay?
Wow, you are right. I do not think she has the emotional fortitude or make up to hang in the adult world for long period of time. I'm a big believer in personality assessments for hiring people and I know that people can only adapt for a short period of time but it creates stress and they revert back to what's natural for them.

I'm asking too much of her. She is very beautiful and I love her. We've spoken about raising a family together many times, what they would look like, what we would name them. We've traveled all over the world ut when we return home it's always the same. sad.

I can't stay, it wouldn't be right.
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post #25 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 09:31 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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The extreme behavior issues only started 5 years ago. It started as a fixation with her mouth, then constant dentist shopping for unneeded surgeries. Now she believe she is in unrealistic pain and says things about her mouth that are impossible. It's very, very, very bad.

From what I've been able to uncover, the family moved into a new house every 2 years for the past 40 years. I know it sounds crazy, but I asked my mother in-laws sister a few months ago how often they moved, and she told me they've moved 20 times. My mother in-law is 65, so if they bought their first house at 18, that's move every 2.5 years. Each new home was in the same school district, all within 5 miles of the last. Maybe these moves were the result of bi-polar mood swings and the husbands reaction to make them go away? My father in-law is totally checked out now, couldn't care less about his wife. He spends all day and afternoon at the golf course while she gets drunk and goes wild with suicidal ideations. Then my wife and wifes sister have to intervene to save their mother, over and over and over again.
Did it coincide with any change emotionally with you two. Was there a different level of commitment at this point? You sound like you love her and are very attracted to her. Dude that is not enough. That is fine for a superficial dating relationship, but that is not enough for a life time partner.

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post #26 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 09:42 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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The extreme behavior issues only started 5 years ago. It started as a fixation with her mouth, then constant dentist shopping for unneeded surgeries. Now she believe she is in unrealistic pain and says things about her mouth that are impossible. It's very, very, very bad.
This could be Trigeminal Neuralgia. Was this ruled out?
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post #27 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 09:54 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Did it coincide with any change emotionally with you two. Was there a different level of commitment at this point? You sound like you love her and are very attracted to her. Dude that is not enough. That is fine for a superficial dating relationship, but that is not enough for a life time partner.
I do love her but I'm no longer in love with her. She is also very attractive, which is why I fell for her upon first sight, those feelings are fading too now as I see that that is not all that matters in a life long partner. I can still find a very attractive partner that has it together, she just might have a kid from a previous marriage at this point in the game.

None of this coincided with anything in our relationship, not that I can think of anyways.
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post #28 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 11:28 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

I usually push for couples to stay together, but almost never do I do so when one has a mental condition. Why? Because the marriage will almost certainly never improve, only erode and because by staying, you enable the sick person to not have to look at her issues. Look at her life; you're paying for her to live a crappy day to day life in bed. If you leave, she will have to either move in with mommy somewhere or get off her butt and work and try to survive. Either way is better than spending the next 40 years vegging out drunk watching tv.
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post #29 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 11:41 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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I usually push for couples to stay together, but almost never do I do so when one has a mental condition. Why? Because the marriage will almost certainly never improve, only erode and because by staying, you enable the sick person to not have to look at her issues. Look at her life; you're paying for her to live a crappy day to day life in bed. If you leave, she will have to either move in with mommy somewhere or get off her butt and work and try to survive. Either way is better than spending the next 40 years vegging out drunk watching tv.
Exactly! I have equipped her with every benefit and tool she needs to make it. Masters degree, counseling, advice on dialectical behavioral counseling, trips to Europe, Central America and most of the major cities in the US. She has done nothing but use and manipulate me. What she has been going on and on about over these last two weeks is "what have done for me" and "what have you done to fight for this marriage". Me Me Me. She's completely blind to the things I've done for her. When I flip the question and ask her what she's done for me in the past 8 years, she can't even make eye contact with me and changes the subject. I see it as harmful to her if I continue to allow her to use me.

I remember when I was in counseling at the VA, the therapist looked at me at said 'Do you really want to have kids with her' in manner that hinted that I should divorce. I should have split way back then, 2 years ago. The therapist asked me what she wants from me and I was honest then and I believe this still to be true. She wants me to be quite and go to work everyday, bring home paychecks and quietly pass away at a convenient time for her.

Last edited by 53791263; 11-16-2016 at 11:46 AM.
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post #30 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 01:08 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

IIWY, I'd get out a poster board and write out a list of ALL the things you've done for her. Not to get her to change her mind. But to leave with her once you divorce, so she can remember all that you did do.
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