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Considering Divorce or Separation If you're considering divorce or separation, this is the place to talk.

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post #31 of 64 (permalink) Old 11-16-2016, 01:26 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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IIWY, I'd get out a poster board and write out a list of ALL the things you've done for her. Not to get her to change her mind. But to leave with her once you divorce, so she can remember all that you did do.
I already sent an email to her sisters outlining exactly that information 2 weeks ago.

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post #32 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 06:51 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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I already sent an email to her sisters outlining exactly that information 2 weeks ago.
UPDATE:

So I filed for divorce on Friday. My wife moved back into the house last Tuesday, it is her house as much as mine, so not much I can say, we live in separate rooms. Last night she broke a little and asked why I even want a divorce. I printer out the story that starts this thread and told her this is why. She read it over and said that her mom was not diagnosed as bi-polar, she was however diagnosed as OCD, delusional and depressed. My wife also stated that I self diagnosed her as having a borderline personality, she disagrees. I don't like to label people, but borderline and all of it's accompanying symptoms are the best tag I can find for how she acts, so that's what I named it.

She does not want to divorce, but she has not once addressed the drinking, smoking and the fact that she has a MS degree and chooses to work for $10 an hours on a part time basis. She earns $900 a month and that's all spent on wine, cigarettes, beauty subscription products and whatever gifts she buys for people. I paid for that MS degree so she could be an equal partner in this relationship, she was clear on that when I met her 9 years ago. Her two sisters have MS degrees, so I paid for my wife to get one so she would feel equal to them because I know how sensitive she is and also so she could contribute to the family finances.

So she came to me last night and sat at the corner of the bed while I was falling to sleep and said she didn't want a divorce and that I'm being unreasonable. She held a compassionate tone for 1 - 2 minutes and then, as always, began with the personal attacks on me. ('I'm a selfish narcissist and a sociopath because all I care about is money'. 'Her family sees right through me'. 'I'm a product of divorce so I'm messed up from the beginning'. She's going to find a rich athlete and I'l be sorry'. 'I'll only find unattractive women with kids'. 'I'll never find what I want'. 'You don't have a degree so ____________'. Don't forget were you came from, you're whit trash'.

She calls me a selfish narcissist and sometimes a sociopath often. I am very ambitious. I've always wanted to be self employed and have complete financial freedom to travel the world and then to raise a family free of financial restrictions. I read roughly 36 business / mindset books a year for the past 4 years about self improvement, because I don't have any degrees so I have to teach myself. I'm the past two years I have become the self employed person I always wanted to be and I earned more last year than I ever thought I would starting out.

My wife claims that she has always supported me but the truth is she belittles my ambitions and my lack of a formal education often. When I first started in real estate and left my career in the military as a recruiter, she would make comments such as: 'oh, you think you're going to be some rich house flipper'. 'Everyone sees that you've changed, we all see right through you'. All you care about is money'.

I don't neglect my wife in the pursuit of business. I've taken her to Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Costa Rica all in the past 3 years. I offer to take her out to new restaurants every weekend. When I'm at home I cook her excellent meals. I do almost all of the cooking. She'll heat up a pizza and expect me to bend at the knee and show respect.

She's made no comments about going into therapy on her own. She has definitely not brought up her under employed situation and what she aims to do about it. She did mention that she made an appointment to see a doctor about quiting smoking (do you need a doctor to motivate you to quit? JUST QUIT WITH THE F'ING SMOKING!) She seems to drink just as much. 7-8 liters of wine a weeks or 1.5 -2 bottles a day.

I went on Match.com a few weeks ago and found that there actually are hundreds of single or divorced woman that are attractive and within 30 miles of me.. and with no kids. Went on 2 dates with an attorney, a motivated, lively, intelligent attorney.

Last edited by 53791263; 12-05-2016 at 10:34 AM.
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post #33 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 07:28 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

UPDATE:

So I filed for divorce on Friday. My wife moved back into the house last Tuesday, it is her house as much as mine, so not much I can say, we live in separate rooms. Last night she broke a little and asked why I even want a divorce. I printer out the story that starts this thread and told her this is why. She read it over and said that her mom was not diagnosed as bi-polar, she was however diagnosed as OCD, delusional and depressed. My wife also stated that I self diagnosed her as having a borderline personality, she disagrees. I don't like to label people, but borderline and all of it's accompanying symptoms are the best tag I can find for how she acts, so that's what I named it.

She does not want to divorce, but she has not once addressed the drinking, smoking and the fact that she has a MS degree and chooses to work for $10 an hours on a part time basis. She earns $900 a month and that's all spent on wine, cigarettes, beauty subscription products and whatever gifts she buys for people. I paid for that MS degree so she could be an equal partner in this relationship, she was clear on that when I met her 9 years ago. Her two sisters have MS degrees, so I paid for my wife to get one so she would feel equal to them because I know how sensitive she is and also so she could contribute to the family finances.

So she came to me last night and sat at the corner of the bed while I was falling to sleep and said she didn't want a divorce and that I'm being unreasonable. She held a compassionate tone for 1 - 2 minutes and then, as always, began with the personal attacks on me. ('I'm a selfish narcissist and a sociopath because all I care about is money'. 'Her family sees right through me'. 'I'm a product of divorce so I'm messed up from the beginning'. She's going to find a rich athlete and I'l be sorry'. 'I'll only find unattractive women with kids'. 'I'll never find what I want'. 'You don't have a degree so ____________'. Don't forget were you came from, you're white trash'.

She calls me a selfish narcissist and sometimes a sociopath often. I am very ambitious. I've always wanted to be self employed and have complete financial freedom to travel the world and then to raise a family free of financial restrictions. I read roughly 36 business / mindset books a year for the past 4 years about self improvement, because I don't have any degrees so I have to teach myself. I'm the past two years I have become the self employed person I always wanted to be and I earned more last year than I ever thought I would starting out.

My wife claims that she has always supported me but the truth is she belittles my ambitions and my lack of a formal education often. When I first started in real estate and left my career in the military as a recruiter, she would make comments such as: 'oh, you think you're going to be some rich house flipper'. 'Everyone sees that you've changed, we all see right through you'. All you care about is money'.

I don't neglect my wife in the pursuit of business. I've taken her to Germany, France, Spain, Portugal and Costa Rica all in the past 3 years. I offer to take her out to new restaurants every other weekend.

She's made no comments about going into therapy on her own. She has definitely not brought up her under employed situation and what she aims to do about it. She did mention that she made an appointment to see a doctor about quiting smoking (do you need a doctor to motivate you to quit? JUST QUIT WITH THE F'ING SMOKING!) She seems to drink just as much. 7-8 liters of wine a week or 1.5 -2 bottles a day.

I went on Match.com a few weeks ago and found that there actually are hundreds of single or divorced woman that are attractive and within 30 miles of me. Went on 2 dates with an attorney, a motivated, lively, intelligent attorney.

Last edited by 53791263; 12-05-2016 at 10:33 AM.
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post #34 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 08:51 AM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

You really should not date until the two of you live apart. You are just asking for trouble.

Your wife is a real b!tch, wow! When she starts in on you with all the name calling and personal attacks, don't engage with her. (It doesn't matter at this point what the hell she thinks of you!) Just say "Im sorry you feel that way" or "okay," and move away from her and the conversation.

Life is too short to spend time with people who suck the happiness out of you.

http://goodmenproject.com/featured-c...ionships-fiff/
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post #35 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 09:07 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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Originally Posted by 3Xnocharm View Post
You really should not date until the two of you live apart. You are just asking for trouble.

Your wife is a real b!tch, wow! When she starts in on you with all the name calling and personal attacks, don't engage with her. (It doesn't matter at this point what the hell she thinks of you!) Just say "Im sorry you feel that way" or "okay," and move away from her and the conversation.
Yeah, I don't let her get to me anymore. When she starts with the personal insults I just smile and knob my head and say alright, or that's nice or bless you heart.
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post #36 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 12:46 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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I see it as harmful to her if I continue to allow her to use me.
I agree. For her own welfare, it is important she be allowed to suffer the logical consequences of her own bad choices and bad behavior. Otherwise, she has no incentive to confront her issues and learn how to better manage them, i.e., learn how to acquire missing emotional skills so she can grow up. Hence, your enabling behavior (e.g., your walking on eggshells around her) is destroying any incentive she would have to improve herself.

Moreover, as long as you remain in the house with her, you are serving to trigger her two fears: abandonment and engulfment. Importantly, it is impossible to avoid triggering them because those two fears lie at opposite ends of the very same spectrum. Hence, backing away from one fear means that you necessarily are drawing closer to triggering the other.

Quote:
I don't like to label people, but borderline and all of it's accompanying symptoms are the best tag I can find for how she acts.
Because we all exhibit the nine BPD traits to some degree, it is easy for us to spot strong occurrences of these traits in others whenever they occur. There is nothing subtle about temper tantrums, lack of impulse control, always being "The Victim," and strong verbal abuse. Hence, after living with a woman for seven years, you would have to be deaf, dumb, and blind to be unable to spot any strong BPD symptoms (i.e., warning signs) that occur.

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Originally Posted by 53791263 View Post
So I filed for divorce on Friday.
If she exhibits strong BPD traits as you believe, the divorce process likely will get nasty and vindictive very quickly. When a BPDer splits you black, she can start perceiving you as Hitler incarnate and will treat you as such. I therefore suggest you read the book, Splitting: Protecting Yourself While Divorcing a Borderline or a Narcissist.

I also suggest you read two online articles. One is Surviving a Breakup with Someone Suffering with BPD. The other is Leaving a Partner with BPD. Both are at the "Articles" section of BPDfamily.
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post #37 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 02:37 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

One, you have no business dating. My brother refused to date until he was officially divorced and just because of THAT, he had women lining up down the block. He had integrity. You also need time ALONE without a woman. Period. If you can't be alone, then you have bigger problems than a bad wife.

Two, the next 100 times she brings up why you shouldn't be divorcing her, simply say "I'm looking for a woman who won't criticize me" and walk away. Then watch her twist herself into knots trying NOT to criticize you. It'll be good for laughs and keep you going.

Three, she will never change. Accept that and stop thinking about what she does. Call up your old friends, get back into sports, join some clubs, start having fun again (without women).
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post #38 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 03:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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the next 100 times she brings up why you shouldn't be divorcing her, simply say "I'm looking for a woman who won't criticize me" and walk away.
I'm not going to say that. She'll say I'm the one that criticizes her. She'll reference all the nagging I've done about

1. Not smoking cigarettes or asking me to buy them, or to stop at every gas station so she can buy them...
2. Drinking 5 liter boxes of wine like some men drink a 12 pack.
3. Getting a job that pays more than minimum wage or working full time, after all, you have a masters degree.

I just feel that my criticizing is directed at things that will make our family better, stronger, healthier and more free.
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post #39 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 04:14 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

Oh, so YOU can choose what's good for the family and she can't?

Uh huh.

Well, then, just practice not saying anything.
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post #40 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 04:39 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

If she really doesn't want a divorce, she may offer to have a baby to keep you -- and also offer to do whatever else you want to keep the marriage. Don't. The odds she will truly change long-term aren't good.

So no sex. You definitely don't want to risk bringing a child into this mess.

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post #41 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-05-2016, 05:00 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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You also need time ALONE without a woman. Period. If you can't be alone, then you have bigger problems than a bad wife.
Ugh, I hate it now but you are right. I'm not dating till this is finalized!
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post #42 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-26-2016, 12:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

Update:

I've been reading some great books about divorces and breakups, the best two are from Susan Elliott, Getting Past your Breakup & Getting Back Out There.

I'm coming to understand that one of the main dysfunctions of our relationship was a complete lack of boundaries between my wife and her mother and sisters. It was all exasperated by my MIL's mental illness (which is completely uncontrollable) and her husbands complete neglect of her. My FIL's complete neglect causes my wife and her only other single sibling to assume responsibility. The FIL knows this and is using my wife and her sister to his own ends to have free time in retirement and to not be burdened. The oldest sister is a health school counselor and had established boundaries in her marriage before her and her husband had children and maintain those boundaries, they don't allow the MIL to interfere at all. The oldest sister is also very manipulative and paranoid as is the FIL. She manipulates my wife to watch her children and belittles her when the family doesn't get together to celebrate or entertain her kids or her. Complete POS woman as with the FIL and my wife know just how I feel about it, she herself understands it but is to weak minded to do anything about it. No boundaries. As you can see, the FIL and oldest sister share the same personality.

What's funny is that I sent an email to all three sisters 5 months ago stating that I was going to bring charges against the FIL for criminal neglect if we don't all meet to assign a person to hold a power of attorney in order to put her away for good, or until she's properly medicated. Everyone ignored this email. I'm the mark in this situation, my wife is the one carrying the burden and the other sisters want it that way! My wife is a willing tool to be used by manipulators, a useful idiot.

The lack of a boundaries has deteriorated my wife and our relationship so much that I hold her in contempt and now don't really think of her at all for days, hence the divorce. I can't even say for certain that my wife wasn't always just like this since I met her. I always thought her mom was crazy. Her and her sisters seemed to ignore it, to my constant surprise. My MIL truly needs to be put in a home or left to her own devises to end her life as she wishes. I would have never argued for medical assisted suicide until I witnessed my MIL and her actions over the past 4 years, I completely support it today.

My wife just does not care to establish boundaries with her family. She will go down with that ship with a righteous smile on her face. The first counselor I took her to 3 years ago pinpointed this unhealthy relationship with the MIL during the 3rd and final session she agreed to attend. She would not face it then and will not face it today. Maybe in a few years she'll pick up some of the books that I've read in the past two weeks and be able to enter a healthy relationship with someone else, I doubt it though, she has refused every attempt at help for the past 4 years.

As I said in the first post, I was in the darkest point in my life when I met her, which explains why I was unable to see things clearly. I overlooked a lot of red flags that won't go unnoticed again. My brother and friends have told me that I expressed to them that I was settling when I married her, looking back, I was. Now that I'm a healthier person I should be able to select a better mate in the future.

I'm putting the house on the market tomorrow as she will not move out.

ALSO, is it strange to talk to your mom and sister on the phone 2-3 times a day at 32.. EVERY DAY! They live within 20 minutes.

Last edited by 53791263; 12-26-2016 at 02:09 PM.
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post #43 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-26-2016, 01:17 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

Re: future partners: watch how their parents are because that's how they'll be.

A good book on picking a better partner is Getting The Love You Want.
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post #44 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-27-2016, 06:29 PM
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

You might find this book worthwhile:

https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Caretaki...rb_top?ie=UTF8

"We are only here briefly, and in this moment I want to allow myself joy." -- Amy, from Spike Jonze's "Her"
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post #45 of 64 (permalink) Old 12-28-2016, 10:10 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Need advice before divorcing

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A good book on picking a better partner is Getting The Love You Want.

Wow, this book is great. I definitely have some underlying problems from my childhood. My parents divorced when I was 5, I was the oldest of 5 siblings and the parents would send nasty messages back and forth through me. I was diagnosed as being emotionally disturbed when I was 8 and that's when my parents eased up on each other. It took my till I was 25 to put peace to everything, only after a military deployment did I have enough courage to confront my parents and tell them how I feel, we've been fine ever since.

I've been open with my wife about these issues that I had when I was young. She would initially feel bad for me but would use it against me within months as a constant source of justification on any fights we would have.

Last year I told her my deepest troubling event that happened when I was young (psychological abuse by my mom). I would act out and my mom, single at the time, would lock me in the attic for 20-30 minutes to punish me, needless to say, it was terrifying and made me even angrier. This abuse stopped after 2-3 iterations and once my moms boyfriend (now stepdad) found out, this was why I bonded so quickly with him. My wife felt bad for me for 2-3 weeks after I told her about it but then started to deride me and my family for it during every argument. I made peace with it, I tried to tell her that and that she can't hurt me with it. I point to this as my turning point to when I no longer loved her.

I'm not perfect either. I derided her and her mom for the lack of boundaries we had in our marriage. We had to commit my mother in law 4 times in the past 4 years. I was sick of it and the fact that she was at our house constantly when the FIL should have been caring for her. She wouldn't put up a boundary against her mom and I expressed my displeasure often. My family lives 3 hours away though, and they never intrude in my life.

Last edited by 53791263; 12-28-2016 at 10:25 AM.
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