Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable. - Talk About Marriage
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post #1 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 07:33 PM Thread Starter
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Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

This is going to be tough for me to get out, but I need to purge my system of these feelings. Warning, this is a wall of text so bail now if you aren't interested in a long, complicated read. But I want to do my story justice. I'm a 37-year-old man, married to a 36-year-old woman. We've been married for over 13 years, but together for 18. I met my wife shortly after I graduated from high school, while she was a senior. I had never dated a woman before her - she's my first everything. Girlfriend, kiss, intimate partner, wife. We're everything to each other. In our early 20s my wife went through a surgery which exacerbated a chronic pain condition we were unaware that she had. It started with her being very anemic following a major surgery, which steamrolled into a diffuse and non-identifiable pain we eventually learned was fibromyalgia.

During this time, my wife also developed a panic condition which impaired her ability to finish the degree she wanted at her University - originally, she was enrolled in Business classes, but had to transfer to a degree in Psychology. Thankfully she was able to graduate (just barely) – but it was the first instance in her life where she had to make a major modification to her behavior based on her health, and instead of getting treatment for her panic disorder instead chose to withdraw (could no longer do presentations in class). At the time, I just wanted her not to be in pain, so I encouraged her.

My wife comes from a religious family, and so when we began seeing each other heavily they insisted we get married. We did, at the ages of 23 and 22. I had just started my first job in Information Technology at a great employer, although my salary was quite low. Her father told me I needed to pay her last year of University since we were now married – I considered it my responsibility and shouldered the burden. I also shouldered the financial burden when she could no longer work and had to focus on school-only.

After graduating, my wife did not feel up to continuing her educational aspirations (originally thought about being a counselor or therapist) and instead became unemployed for about a year. Eventually, because the bills had piled up (her University, wedding, honeymoon, rings, etc). I insisted that she get a job – I basically made sure she got a job in childcare which was full time, and paid fairly well. She appreciated the help, but also felt bitter that I had “forced” her into the decision. This was an early, problematic pattern in our relationship – I would see a deficit (or a perceived deficit) and I would go in and solve the situation.

For many years, my wife worked in her childcare job – during this time, she began to see increasing symptoms of fibromyalgia. She also developed vertigous migraines, increased anxiety, and a variety of other health conditions. Thankfully I have incredible health insurance because of my large and very visible employer, but even with incredible coverage there is a certain degree of expense that is placed upon us dealing with it. It was very painful to live with a spouse who is most of the time ill – and unable to do many of the things that I so desired. I spent many years alone – she would work all day, come home, take medication and fall asleep all evening and on the weekends.

We tried so many things – and continue to – for her health. We have access to excellent healthcare in Seattle, with all of the latest techniques designed to deal with what she is going through. If she’s going to get “better” or (more reasonably) manage her symptoms, it’s here.

Our sex life was troubled for many years – we did not engage in relations before we were married, and not on our wedding night. It’s only the last 6 years we have been intimate – part of this had to do with the traumatic surgery my wife went through to remove a large tumor – it required something called a DNC, which is essentially a scraping of the vaginal wall. She went through 2-3 of these before her surgery, and became traumatized to any stimulation in that region due to the extreme pain and discomfort. She ended up going to a therapist to address this, and eventually we settled into a (more) healthy sex life which continues today. About 5 years back, my wife attempted to switch careers which ended in a major failure; previously, she was working two part-time jobs after which she switched to one full-time job. With the new full-time job, she suffered a major anxiety attack and health issue which resulted in an overnight stay in the ER and her declaring she could not do the job. Because she left the old jobs, she didn’t have an apparent path towards employment (in her mind) so she decided to take a year off of work.

I should note that throughout this process I was attempting to build my career as much as possible, to compensate. I went back to school and received a Bachelors of Science in Business/IT Management, and recently enrolled in a MBA program. I worked my way up the chain, moving from a Technology Analyst to Lead, to small Department Manager and eventually an Operations Supervisor of large, functional unit. I have spent quite a bit of time on my personal health (work out regularly), attend personal therapy, done a lot of work in mindfulness, have hobbies and friends.

Because of this, I have been (mostly) able to compensate for the financial aspects of my wife’s condition. After she took a year off, however, it did put us in a bad place – it should be noted that 5 years ago I had just made the transition to a small Department Manager, and while I was making more we had moved into a more expensive location which required we both be working to maintain our lifestyle. Following the financial crisis, salary freezes / cost of living upgrade reductions were made at my employer which slowed down my ability to make more money directly at the time my wife decided to take a year off. Additionally, living in the Seattle area, there was a major population boom due to Amazon and other tech companies which significantly drove up the cost of living. Three years back, we moved to less expensive area just as my wife got a new job – a part time position, as she felt she could not do any more. During this time, I have utilized the significant increase in income I have secured due to a large promotion to build a large savings, pay off all debts, and continue to build my career. Truthfully, my career is where I throw myself to avoid some of the pain of my home life.

One of the most troubling aspects of my wife’s behavior is how she withdraws – from me, her friends, her family. She is angry at everyone for not “understanding” her condition – when I say this to her, she becomes defensive and says I don’t know what I’m talking about. We’ve been in couples counseling for 1.5 years now, and while I think it is having some positive effects it also feels like the communication piece between us is somewhat stuck in the mud – I fully admit some of this comes from a certain degree of me disengaging from frustration. My wife’s method for dealing with all problems seems to be simply stop doing the thing that causes her pain – not turning towards the anxiety as a growing or learning experience, but instead turning away and hiding from it. She says things like “She depends on me for life” and she would “Die if I ever left her”. I don’t know what to say when she says that to me.

I’m no angel. A few years ago, I kept trying to numb myself from the pain of our disconnect by drinking; I ended up quitting, going to AA, and have been clean & sober for almost 2 years.

In a last-ditch effort to find my wife “purpose” (she often says she has none) we started trying to have children. Dumb, I know, and in hindsight I realize what a selfish decision that would have been. But we wanted so desperately to repair our relationship and marriage, and somehow the idea of a child (something we had wanted since we married) seemed like the answer. Unfortunately, it appears her surgery -may- have caused an issue, and after years of infertility treatment and failed adoptions we had to give up. This process started 4~ years ago, and ultimately culminated in a few failed rounds of IVF last year. I’ve somehow managed to pay off the two rounds of IVF, but at great personal cost (had to do a bunch of consulting to bridge the gap in funding so I didn’t go into massive debt).

Needless to say, all of these things have put an incredible amount of pressure on our relationship. During the day, I feel empowered at my career site where I feel I have a high degree of control and success. At home, I deal with a partner who has (historically) been completely dependent upon me. There were many times I avoided going home, because I simply did not want to be in the same room because her sadness and anxiety overwhelmed me. Recently, things are better – lots of therapy has brought a bit more closeness, and some acceptance and growth on my wife’s part. That being said, I feel incredible burnout in my relationship and often teeter on the edge of simply wanting to “call it quits” and move on.

She’s the only woman I’ve ever been with, and I love her dearly. I fear (as she’s threatened it) that she would harm herself if I was to leave – I also don’t know financially how she would make it, although she does have family in the area where she could have a free place to stay. She relies heavily on my income, my support, as well as my health insurance. I don’t know how she would make it without a plan, given all of her treatments. I’m in this very painful, on the fence, undecided place. Do I continue to work as hard as I can to try and make this work? How hard and how long should I do that? Am I willing to give up my dreams of being a father for a potentially failed marriage? If I call it quits, will things just get worse? Could I handle being without her? Oddly enough I’m actually in a pretty good spot right now – contemplative, reflective, thinking about where I am and where I want to be. I do feel like I am a great partner – not perfect – but someone who has a lot to offer a potential spouse. I don’t want to live a life of regret, and I owe it to myself to be happy. But I also feel like I have a commitment to be a loving and supportive husband and I want to be as honorable to my wife as possible, even if things don’t work about between us.

I’m completely open to any and all advice. I hope I don’t come off as callous or uncaring – I am anything but. I am emotionally battered by all of this.

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post #2 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 08:07 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

You have shared a lot my friend... you have wonderful compassion in your words.

She has fears and hurdles made from those fears seem like skyscrapers... I would venture to say she is well aware you are on a tightrope between those.

You mentioned honor... an important word.

Of course you could live without her... but you made some serious promises in your marriage vows.

I'm sure you could walk a new path within your marriage as easily as walking a path away from it... walking away just seems easiest because it's downhill but one day you will have to walk back up and the hill will change in it's complexity by then, it always does.

Divorce under these conditions seems just as much a withdrawal as what your wife is faces... how can you give her the trust she needs?

I know you are tired... don't you think the things you could control in you could work though this with some of your own personal support and counseling?

If not, you will have to identify what calm is in your life on your own... often a fools errand as we all need a sage to guide us. (ps. while a filler, work is not calm)

Do you have a foundation of faith you could reach out to?
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post #3 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 08:15 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

Have you been to any support groups for spouses of chronically ill persons? I think you would benefit from being able to speak to men and women who are in similar situations, but further down the road. If you have a clear view of your likely future, it may help. Having the support of others who understand might help, too.

Follow the evidence where it leads and question everything.
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post #4 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-22-2016, 08:22 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

More thoughts if I may...

Your wife has met a series of disappointments, overwhelming at times it seems... and being forced, for any reason, builds resentment if we are not tooled to work with them.

Not all tools we pick up work...

Have you considered more meditative approaches? Something she could build confidence on, and in such as meditation classes, Yoga, Tai Chi, volunteering in senior care... anything to begin restoring the self-love she seems to have lost?

ETA: How about life coaching? https://www.hallowelltodarocenter.org/services.html

PM me and I'll share how these services helped one of my children.

Last edited by Emerging Buddhist; 12-23-2016 at 09:47 AM. Reason: Mire mindful thoughts...
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post #5 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 01:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Emerging Buddhist View Post
More thoughts if I may...

Your wife has met a series of disappointments, overwhelming at times it seems... and being forced, for any reason, builds resentment if we are not tooled to work with them.

Not all tools we pick up work...

Have you considered more meditative approaches? Something she could build confidence on, and in such as meditation classes, Yoga, Tai Chi, volunteering in senior care... anything to begin restoring the self-love she seems to have lost?

ETA: How about life coaching? https://www.hallowelltodarocenter.org/services.html

PM me and I'll share how these services helped one of my children.
A few of the things I've had her working on / trying:

1) Weekly massage therapy
2) Weekly personal therapy
3) Meditation
4) Yoga
5) Mindfulness courses (multiple)
6) Acupuncture

Etc, etc.

I've also said she needs purpose in life, specifically, something like volunteering. She often makes excuses why volunteering won't "fit into her schedule". It should be noted she only works 16 hours a week.

Her personal therapist is pushing her right now - she is asking that she forms a support network, specifically, by attending a support group for infertility and her local unitarian church.

My wife thinks these are both good ideas, but hasn't executed. It's one of the problems - if left on her own, she doesn't execute. I'm stepping back a bit to give her the space to do it. It's frustrating to see her struggle so much with the smallest of tasks and my heart goes out to her. But I feel like if I step in and "take over" we will end up in the pattern we have been in for our entire marriage.
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post #6 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

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Originally Posted by MJJEAN View Post
Have you been to any support groups for spouses of chronically ill persons? I think you would benefit from being able to speak to men and women who are in similar situations, but further down the road. If you have a clear view of your likely future, it may help. Having the support of others who understand might help, too.
I actually haven't - just a lot of personal therapy. I don't even really "mind" the chronic illness, it's more the depression and giving up over the years. I know she would like to stop working all together, which I think would be very unhealthy for her because she doesn't have a plan (such as volunteering) to fill that void. She actually gets a lot of satisfaction out of work and sometimes I think she's looking for permission from me just to "give up" and receive care (financial, emotional) for the rest of her life.

I know her illness places limitations, but I also think that she makes huge assumptions about what she can and can't do - in our couples therapy I expressed this and she didn't take it well, even though the therapist kept repeating what she heard, and then contrasting that to what my wife heard. My wife hears that I don't respect her, that I don't understand her, and that I think she is lazy and a burden. All I've ever said is I don't want her to sell herself short without really looking into what is and isn't possible.

It's just really frustrating.
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post #7 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 02:24 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

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I fear (as she’s threatened it) that she would harm herself if I was to leave –
Oh well this changes everything. When a person uses the threat of self harm to keep the other person in the relationship, they have reached new heights of selfishness, manipulation and even deception, along with of course a boatload of insecurity and personality/mental disorders.

What's she is saying is "I don't care what you think, what you want, what will make you happier, it is your job, your responsibility, to spend your life making sure I am happy and secure and if you don't and something happens to me because I refuse to deal with my issues with therapy and/or medications, you will regret it for the rest of your natural life".

I'd like to think if I was with a woman who threatened self harm was I to leave her, the first thing I would do is point her to the nearest bridge and start packing my things.

Quote:
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I also don’t know financially how she would make it, although she does have family in the area where she could have a free place to stay. She relies heavily on my income, my support, as well as my health insurance.
If you are in a state like most others, you'll be court ordered to support her for the foreseeable future, or at least supplement her income.

And/or she can move back in with her parents, and make THEM miserable- you know the ones that forced you to get married because of THEIR religious beliefs.

Things are more like they are now, than they ever were before - Dwight D Eisenhower
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post #8 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 03:36 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

You married the wrong person. Don't sweat it, most of us did/do. Marriage isn't a life long prison sentence of misery. That's where you are right now. Misery. Regret. Unhappiness. Sexless.

Think about the new life you could have. I know you are already thinking about it. I was in your shoes just a year ago. Coming home to your own bachelor pad, having a woman that wants you every day, a couple nice cars in the garage, able to go to Vegas or NYC at a moments notice with a girl or the guys.

If I was you, I'd go see an attorney next week and pay him to tell you what your financial situation would look like with a divorce. You could even do a legal separation and not divorce if you need to keep medical benefits going for a number of years. If it was me, I'd make her become financial independent and only do what the law mandates. Remember, the longer you stay in the marriage, the more maintenance (alimony) she can get depending on your state. This is why getting legal advice next week is very important. You need to be informed so you can decide how the rest of your life is going to turn out. You can either make a very hard choice and hit the reset button, or you can continue to live a miserable and unfulfilling life.
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post #9 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-23-2016, 03:55 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LowJack View Post
A few of the things I've had her working on / trying:

1) Weekly massage therapy
2) Weekly personal therapy
3) Meditation
4) Yoga
5) Mindfulness courses (multiple)
6) Acupuncture

Etc, etc.

I've also said she needs purpose in life, specifically, something like volunteering. She often makes excuses why volunteering won't "fit into her schedule". It should be noted she only works 16 hours a week.

Her personal therapist is pushing her right now - she is asking that she forms a support network, specifically, by attending a support group for infertility and her local unitarian church.

My wife thinks these are both good ideas, but hasn't executed. It's one of the problems - if left on her own, she doesn't execute. I'm stepping back a bit to give her the space to do it. It's frustrating to see her struggle so much with the smallest of tasks and my heart goes out to her. But I feel like if I step in and "take over" we will end up in the pattern we have been in for our entire marriage.
So, how would you choose to relieve yourself without this frustration IF divorce wasn't an option?

Is it possible that your wife has some ADHD in the mix as well?
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post #10 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 12:35 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

It hasn't been easy either of you and I wonder would your finances allow you to spend a week or so apart. With the difficulties you both face you may both be taking each other for granted and might just perceive things differently if you have some space to think.

Each of you may end up missing the other and more inclined to appreciate one another as a result. Or she might realise that she can be more independent and know that she will not expire if you are not around. For you respite from routine might be a lifesaver and strengthener I would imagine.

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post #11 of 14 (permalink) Old 12-31-2016, 04:20 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

Soak this in:

Some people never get better. Never. No matter what help they get or how much you try to care for them. Some even deteriorate further.

There comes a time for those of us married to profoundly sick people in which we have to decide who we are living for. There's not a wrong answer as long as you are truly honest with yourself. Self sacrifice can be noble, but only if you choose it openly and honestly. That being said, you only get one life. Choose wisely.
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post #12 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-03-2017, 03:26 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

I think the chief question is what sort of regrets do you or do you not want to live (or die) with?

As agonizing as not being able to have children must be, I can tell you the decisions in these valleys can be more painful (read: agonizing) with children in the mix. I would also point out to you that many of these issues can explode after you have children, including broadsides you never saw coming.

To honor your vows you are going to have to keep this up another ~20 - 50 years. Can you do that? What if she never changes? As zookeeper pointed out, most people do not change. Despite your heroic efforts, she may never change (grow). Can you handle that? If not how will you cope? Will you start drinking again? Sink into depression? Affairs?

You sound like a good husband who managed to keep moving forward with personal growth even while making sacrifices for her. That's positive on the one hand, but if she didn't grow personally at the same pace, it alienates. It seems likely such growth--and distance--may continue indefinitely if you can keep this up.

Your wife sounds like she might be in the personality disordered spectrum if she is threatening suicide if you leave. Have you read about BPD or any articles such as 'TILL DEATH DO US PART - BPD and The Marriage Crucible ? I am not saying this is how your wife is, but I am curious to know whether any of that rings true for you.
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post #13 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 06:08 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

LowJack, I agree with @reboot that it would be prudent to take a quick look at BPD (Borderline PD) warning signs to see if most sound very familiar. Several of the behavioral symptoms you describe are some of the classic red flags for BPD.

Quote:
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She began to see increasing symptoms of fibromyalgia.
A number of studies have found a strong association between BPD and chronic pain syndromes. A 2012 study, for example, reports that "Since 1994, eight studies have explored the relationship between chronic pain syndromes and borderline personality disorder. In averaging the prevalence rates in these studies, 30 percent of participants with chronic pain harbor this Axis II disorder." See Innov in Clin Neuro, 2012.

As to fibromyalgia specifically, a number of studies have found a strong relationship between it and BPD. See, e.g., Fibro and BPD - GH Psychiatry and Fibro Prevalence in BPD and Fibro and BPD -- AAPEL View. Anecdotally, I can report that my BPDer exW suffers from chronic fibromyalgia.

Quote:
With the new full-time job, she suffered a major anxiety attack .... I don't even really "mind" the chronic illness, it's more the depression and giving up over the years.
If she has full-blown BPD, there is an 81% chance she also has an anxiety disorder and a 36% chance of having Major Depressive Disorder. See Table 3 at 2008 Study in JCP.

Quote:
My wife also developed a panic condition which impaired her ability to finish the degree.
If she exhibited a panic disorder with agoraphobia in the past 12 months, there is a 53% chance she also exhibits full-blown BPD. If the panic attack is without agoraphobia, the chance of co-occurring BPD drops to 24%. See Table 2 at 2008 Study cited above.

Quote:
I fear (as she’s threatened it) that she would harm herself if I was to leave.
Self harm and threats of self harm constitute one of the nine defining traits for BPD. See 9 traits -- NIMH.

Quote:
I’m completely open to any and all advice.
My advice, LowJack, is to see a psychologist -- for a visit or two all by yourself -- to obtain a candid professional opinion on what it is you are dealing with. I also suggest that, while you're looking for a good psych, you read about BPD warning signs to see if they seem to apply.

An easy place to start reading is my list of 18 BPD Warning Signs. If most sound very familiar, I would suggest you read my more detailed description of them at my posts in Maybe's Thread. I also suggest you read BCD's 2012 thread, starting at his post #22. BCD decribes his W as exhibiting strong BPD traits together with constant migraines, chronic fatigue syndrome, panic attacks (when younger), and chronic fibromyalgia.

Significantly, learning to spot these warning signs will not enable you to diagnose your W's issues. The main reason for learning the red flags, then -- like learning warning signs for stroke and heart attack -- is to help you decide whether there is sufficient reason to spend time and money seeking a professional opinion from a psychologist. Take care, LowJack.
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post #14 of 14 (permalink) Old 01-07-2017, 06:35 PM
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Re: Don't want to live a life of regret, but want to be honorable.

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Her father told me I needed to pay her last year of University since we were now married – I considered it my responsibility and shouldered the burden. I also shouldered the financial burden when she could no longer work and had to focus on school-only.


No. It's never a spouses responsibility to put their partner through college.

You are her husband; not her parent.
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