Of Two Minds - continue or end? - Page 2 - Talk About Marriage
Considering Divorce or Separation If you're considering divorce or separation, this is the place to talk.

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post #16 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 12:51 PM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Threats don't work because I do that myself which I hate.. But then he says 'get it started'... So, that's great advice to get the papers started and ready to hand over. Maybe she doesn't think you'll actually do it.


But I'm wondering if the two of you need to get out of the house alone together.. A dinner date or even a simple walk together somewhere. In my marriage I am frustrated but when he agrees to go on a walk or do some yardwork with me..I'm so much better!! I feel as though he wants to be with me and it's not a duty because we are a family.

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post #17 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 01:27 PM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

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Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
Hello there,

I'm struggling with a decision that I need some perspective on - perhaps you all can help me step back and think about my situation clearly... I'll try to paint the picture and ask for some advice.

I'm married almost 12 years, with a 10-year old son. We have been through a lot in our relationship - nasty and manipulative in-laws (my parents), financial hardship, dealing with a twice-exceptional child's needs, moving to another country, health issues to name but a few. Unfortunately I think this has taken too much of a toll on my wife. It feels like I am living with two people - the woman I dearly love, and this other monster that takes over her body increasingly often. I put up with the nasty side because the wonderful woman I love is also in there.

Here's life with the nasty side of her:

She's been using threats of leaving for years to get her way, but have always just been a tool in her argument toolbox. Speaking of which, she also brings back the past of when I was dumb enough to not take care of her needs well enough when our son was a baby. It automatically wins her any argument even 10 years later as I was indeed an ass back then and she really did have the most arduous birth experience I have come across.

I guess the short-and-long of it is that she accuses me of not caring for her, of not thinking of her needs, not doing the things she wants me to do. However I am at my wits end on how I could possibly do more. Here's a typical day/week in my life:
Wake up, make breakfast for the family, make sure lunches are packed and take out the garbage (I am known to forget the garbage about 1 out of 10 times), then take our son to school. I work relatively long hours, as is normal for my profession and responsibility level. After work, I pick up my son from swimming (mom took him there) or get him from home to take him to Judo. Dinner (she usually makes it since she wants to eat early) usually after that. I clean up the table, kitchen (a deal we made with her cooking dinner and me cleaning up) and house after that. I then help with homework and get my son into bed. After that I either help my wife with cleaning, sorting, E-mails, phone-calls, laundry, paperwork. I'd say 90% of the time I am busy with these tasks until bedtime or beyond. I'll play a game on my mobile phone for 10 minutes before bedtime to try and unwind. I'll have a couple of hours free maybe 1 day a week if I'm lucky. Week-ends are similar. I make breakfast, help with left-over homework, music practise, lessons, chores in & around the house. I'll maybe get a few hours "relaxation" to play with my son.

Is this normal? Do other people also only have 2-3 hours of free time per week? Am I not doing enough?

One thing that I think is an issue is that I do things in a different sequence or order of priority than her, and it drives her crazy. She'll expect me to do things the same way she would. Without her telling me which order. Apparently a good husband would know this automatically. When I ask, I'm being difficult. When I say I'm getting to it when she tries to remind me to do something she feels I should already have done first, I'm accused of talking back at her - something that a good husband should not do either. She's allowed to tell me how bad a person I am and I have to be quiet, no arguing.

Now I know what you think by now - she sounds horrible! But there is the wonderful side of her too... When the nasty woman is asleep:

She is fantastic at anticipating my needs and will be extremely thoughtful and prep things for me so that things are ready for me. She works like super-woman on helping our very difficult son with learning about school and life. Believe me, he can be extremely tiring - most people think he's great the first 30 minutes, OK after an hour and can't stand him for a minute longer after 2-3 hours, yet she takes him on day-in, day-out. She works (from home) for 4-6 hours per day, cooks a great, balanced meal in the evenings and drives my son from school, to his therapy sessions and swimming lessons. She'll provide emotional support to the family and make suggestions when other people are out of ideas. She'll deal with contractors for fixing things I don't have the time for, and navigates the medical bureaucracy for getting more help for our son. Warm hugs, really a kind-hearted and very caring person over-all.

We are in our mid-forties now and as we age and have less energy, more aches & pains (especially her since she has poor general health), we have less tolerance and she seems to be the nasty woman more often. I'm worried about menopause - and she's been more ferocious every thiem the nasty one takes over. What to do?
At the risk of being assassinated, I know this women intimately.

Difference: our two daughters were/are genius's. In fairness, one is an Ivy League genius, the other, too smart for her own britches [and cold and calculating] but very well accomplished and living the dream. Huh?

Your wife has a lot on her plate. The hard work and her failing health [energy loss] has frustrated her to no end. Plus, special needs children are forever...or so it seems.
Leaving you? That is her saying she wants to give up. She is tired of doing what she is doing. Not that she would never bail on you.

A good thing for me? My wife is rather old now, out of gas. I am not....yet. She cannot stand up to SunCMars. She loves me and only gets sassy and mean when she is very tired. When younger she could have easily taken care of herself, she liked to threaten. I told her to go if I am so bad. She made good money. I took a bag full of crap for a long time. My solution: I ran 10 miles or more and came home...took a nap. Her anger took a nap....usually.

I am/was also helpful, and can fix, construct, build anything. Am no slouch.

What to do? ..... Stick it out.

When the child reaches majority, can you put him in a group home? I am assuming that he is that much restricted. To save your marriage, you need to do this. She may balk.

Yours is a tough case with no easy solution.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #18 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-11-2017, 01:38 PM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

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Originally Posted by cc48kel View Post
Threats don't work because I do that myself which I hate.. But then he says 'get it started'... So, that's great advice to get the papers started and ready to hand over. Maybe she doesn't think you'll actually do it.


But I'm wondering if the two of you need to get out of the house alone together.. A dinner date or even a simple walk together somewhere. In my marriage I am frustrated but when he agrees to go on a walk or do some yardwork with me..I'm so much better!! I feel as though he wants to be with me and it's not a duty because we are a family.
Yes.......a women thing THIS.

Men like women who do the things that they enjoy, also, i.e., golf, fishing, sporting events, whatever.

This....This is the nub of the stick that pokes me in the eye when the light of day energizes my optic nerve....SunCMars.... The Allegory of the Cave--> On this, I did a '180' and stepped out.

The Lion in Winter. Invictus..By Will, Shall... Saved from harm by my friends.
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post #19 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 07:45 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Thank you all for sticking with me through this discussion - your insights, as varied as they are help me put things into perspective.

@Bibi1031: That is exactly what I am of two minds about. I guess I'm a bit old-fashioned about the promise I made her to take care of her always. I still care for her, despite what she believes and genuinely want her to feel better. I just don't know if I'm trying to hold on (me being stubborn?) to a belief that I can actually fulfill that promise. What if I cannot give her the kind of environment where she can be happy? What if she will be better off without me?

Then there's my son. It goes from simple to super-complicated as soon as you bring him into the picture. Some days I throw myself into the fray to protect him from her (and as a result put one more nail in our relationship's coffin), and then think that he will be better off without her. Perhaps I need strategies to protect him without destroying my relationship with her... On other days I see how much hard work and effort she puts into helping him, chasing after solutions to his problems and essentially turning herself into an expert child psychologist to be able to help him. I don't want to take that away from him either.

@Uptown: Yes, I think she has some diagnosed issue. I do know she is highly gifted intellectually, and also likely have some associated disability or personality disorder of her own. She apparently was a real handful when she was small, jumping off bridges, and in general being a wild child. She likely has or had ADHD/ODD and perhaps some others mixed in. Many of her characteristics come out in our son, perhaps amplified by many of my own.
Her saying nasty things to our son is part of her issue - it's not right for some-one of his emotional maturity to hear that from his mom - even if what she really means is that she does not like/love his current behavior and that it is too much for her to handle right now. She goes through phases with this. She'll feel better towards him, work really hard, he misbehaves, she snaps and yells at him for hours/days, this peaks and goes into an "I don't care about you anymore" phase where she does almost nothing to the point of neglect. Eventually she feels better and the cycle repeats.

The past month is the longest I have seen her in her "I don't care" mode. She works hard in her job as massage therapist, but other than that, do very little. Me & my son do more - purely because some-one has to do those things. Of course, she feels we only do those things because she is angry at us.
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post #20 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 08:29 PM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

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Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
She likely has or had ADHD/ODD and perhaps some others mixed in.
Elrin, some members of the psychiatric community suspect that BPD and adult ADHD (Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder) may not be two distinct disorders but, rather, represent -- at least for some patients -- two dimensions of one disorder. See, e.g., 2006 Study and 25% of BPDers Have ADHD.

I've not yet found any reliable statistics on the incidence of BPD in adults exhibiting ADHD. I have found the reverse statistic, however. A therapeutic treatment center reports in 2011 that a fourth of BPDers exhibit adult ADHD. Specifically, it states:
Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder frequently co-occurs in borderline individuals, affecting nearly 1 out of every 4. Like BPD, people with ADHD often struggle with impulsivity. One of the dilemmas with treating someone with BPD and ADHD is that ADHD medications can make borderline symptoms worse. See Treatment Center.
You may also want to take a look at a 2013 study and a 2014 study. Both conclude that ADHD may be a childhood precursor for adolescent BPD.
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post #21 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-19-2017, 10:40 PM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

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Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

She's been using threats of leaving for years to get her way, but have always just been a tool in her argument toolbox.
It has always been my sense that threats, ultimatums, and outright ordering other adults around is a sure-fire way to prevent any form of relationship success. I made this point on someone else's post and was attacked soundly by a chap implying that I'm a wuss and behaving like a rug. "Of course you tell your spouse what to do", he said, implying it was somehow, a healthy form of setting boundaries.

So, being open-minded, I contacted my colleagues who have been studying the mind, analyzing brain images and asked them.

Turns out the evidence is purely one-sided. No. Under no circumstances is any relationship, whether adult-to-adult, or even parent-to-child, enhanced when the method is to issue orders, ultimatums, threats whether it be spanking or divorce. Even a three year old child will immediately harbor resentment "My dad can order me around only because he's bigger" and that child will become the one who breaks the law as an adult.

So - divorce threats? My sense is this is someone with a much higher than average need to control others. Nobody can control anything except what you think (and therefore what you feel) and your behavior in the next ten seconds or so.

I've taken to accepting threats and ultimatums as the person giving me choice A or Choice B. If it's the first time that a person has used an ultimatum with me, I say, fairly quietly so as to make sure they know I'm not speaking out of emotion, "I tend to view ultimatums as being given a choice of two paths. I recommend that you give me such ultimatums only if you would be equally happy no matter which of the two offered paths I take". With my wife, she issued me one ultimatum - ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

Speaking of which, she also brings back the past
The past is dead and has no bearing on the current. If you can learn from the past, that's OK, but years of attempts to find a benefit to regret have yielded nothing. If she demands an apology, give it, but be done with it.

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I guess the short-and-long of it is that she accuses me of not caring for her, of not thinking of her needs, not doing the things she wants me to do.
If these are claims of the current conditions, then there may be merit in claims of "not caring for her". This means emotional support. "Thinking of her needs" is rather vague - an adult is supposed to know his/her own needs and supply 99% of them. If someone else actually NEEDS something they cannot supply themselves, then they are obligated to ask for it, not assume someone else can "think about it".

Things she wants you to do? Kinda depends on what they are. Sharing in the basic needs of life seems reasonable - share in keeping the house clean, share in food, whether it means one person cooks, the other cleans up, sure. Share in her ideas of making something perfect? It's time to discuss what are reasonable objectives. Are your chosen objectives and activities chosen in collaboration with each other? When you two consider things to add to your list, is the answer "no" as often as it is "yes", or do you just keep adding because every new thing feels good?

Before the next quote, I'll mention that "doing" is way over-rated. FEELING is the stuff of secure families.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

However I am at my wits end on how I could possibly do more. Here's a typical day/week in my life:
Wake up, make breakfast for the family, make sure lunches are packed and take out the garbage (I am known to forget the garbage about 1 out of 10 times)...

I work relatively long hours, as is normal for my profession and responsibility level.
Was this choice made in agreement with the wife? Given your working, you're earning high dollars, can you consider paying for help in some of the chores you do? Driving child to school is not quality time with him, so you lose nothing by paying for transportation.

Any chance you could downshift at work? Assuming your "profession and responsibility level" are paying more than you need, can you take a cut in pay and get back to 40 hours a week?

If she did not ask you to put forth this effort for this income, then this may be the heart of the matter...you may only be assuming that she values this. I don't know in your case, as you have not said as much.

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Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

After work, I pick up my son from swimming (mom took him there) or get him from home to take him to Judo.
This is feeling like a lot of extra-curricular activities for your son. Given his twice-exceptional characteristics, are these activities based on a counselor's recommendation? If so, is the counselor aware that your wife's health prevents her from making a normal level of support contribution?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

Dinner (she usually makes it since she wants to eat early) usually after that. I clean up the table, kitchen (a deal we made with her cooking dinner and me cleaning up) and house after that. I then help with homework and get my son into bed. After that I either help my wife with cleaning, sorting, E-mails, phone-calls, laundry, paperwork.
My gut feel is you're cleaning a lot. Houses can't be hospital clean, especially not many times a day. Cleaning up after a meal, sure, but are you dusting/vacuuming daily? That would be a bit overboard.

Help your wife sorting what? What needs sorting on a daily basis? If she involves herself in activities that generate more work, I think she should be doing all the sorting/emailing, whatever. Part of how we decide how much to take on is based on how much work it generates for us. My individual decision to start a new activity/hobby, etc, is mine alone and I would not feel ethical in expecting my wife to participate in any of the work involved.

FYI, I did an entire thread about how much paperwork my wife does...I'm overwhelmed by the time she spends doing phone calls, paperwork, bills, and on and on. It's less than what your wife seems to need, and the response I got from all responders is "she needs help", aka, she's way over the top obsessive-compulsive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

I'd say 90% of the time I am busy with these tasks until bedtime or beyond. I'll play a game on my mobile phone for 10 minutes before bedtime to try and unwind. I'll have a couple of hours free maybe 1 day a week if I'm lucky. Week-ends are similar. I make breakfast, help with left-over homework, music practise, lessons, chores in & around the house. I'll maybe get a few hours "relaxation" to play with my son.
Overall, it sounds like the two of you have taken on too much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
]
Is this normal? Do other people also only have 2-3 hours of free time per week? Am I not doing enough?
What is she doing? No, 2-3 hours is not right. I suspect 90% of what you're doing is attempting to achieve perfection which, by definition, is a waste of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

One thing that I think is an issue is that I do things in a different sequence or order of priority than her, and it drives her crazy. She'll expect me to do things the same way she would. Without her telling me which order. Apparently a good husband would know this automatically. When I ask, I'm being difficult. When I say I'm getting to it when she tries to remind me to do something she feels I should already have done first, I'm accused of talking back at her - something that a good husband should not do either. She's allowed to tell me how bad a person I am and I have to be quiet, no arguing.
Well, be careful of the notion that anything should be "fair". You and she will be sensitive to different things, therefore the ways you speak to each other won't necessarily be the same.

I'm always troubled when I hear that someone insists that a task be done one exact way. Years of work in production environments have caused me to sit in probably a thousand hours of class on how to instruct people to do work. All of them said the same thing: unless the product/service is either medically sensitive or national security related, you should only define the desired outcome, not how a person gets there. Not because it's nice, but because it works better. If you tell someone what to do and exactly how, then that person has no ownership of what they're doing - it's no longer their work, it's yours, and you've put them in a position of having to channel your innermost thoughts. Rarely works well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post

Now I know what you think by now - she sounds horrible! But there is the wonderful side of her too... When the nasty woman is asleep:

She is fantastic at anticipating my needs and will be extremely thoughtful and prep things for me so that things are ready for me. She works like super-woman on helping our very difficult son with learning about school and life. Believe me, he can be extremely tiring - most people think he's great the first 30 minutes, OK after an hour and can't stand him for a minute longer after 2-3 hours, yet she takes him on day-in, day-out. She works (from home) for 4-6 hours per day, cooks a great, balanced meal in the evenings and drives my son from school, to his therapy sessions and swimming lessons. She'll provide emotional support to the family and make suggestions when other people are out of ideas. She'll deal with contractors for fixing things I don't have the time for, and navigates the medical bureaucracy for getting more help for our son. Warm hugs, really a kind-hearted and very caring person over-all.
I didn't see anything about feelings. Without feelings - emotional support of each other - it hardly would be a romantic relationship. Life is about feelings, emotional and spiritual connectedness. In a sense, it sounds as if the two of you have split apart already and are attempting to pretend to have a marriage based on what you "do" not how you feel, how you listen, how you share energy, emotion and spirit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
]

We are in our mid-forties now and as we age and have less energy, more aches & pains (especially her since she has poor general health), we have less tolerance and she seems to be the nasty woman more often. I'm worried about menopause - and she's been more ferocious every thiem the nasty one takes over. What to do?
I'm 60 and only in the past year have I seen a change in energy. Humans are vital longer than in any period in history, at 40 if you're low on energy, then it's your lifestyle....I really think the two of you are trying to do far more tasks than the two of you can manage, given your work schedules and her health and the high support needs of your son.

Have the two of you had a good talk about what is reasonable?

Your son has twice-exceptional needs (your words). If these needs mean that he will never integrate with society as normal, then accept it and don't try to compensate. I don't know his condition and in any case, I'm not a counselor on the matter, hopefully you have a proper expert to consult with.

I've been diagnosed with two different mental conditions and have challenged eyesight that prevented me from playing sports as a kid - no social life until college. I have never been able to integrate with normal culture in any kind of an easy way. My parents, thankfully, didn't get in my way and allowed me to find where I was comfortable. I naturally gravitated toward hobbies that I could do without friends, turned one of them into a decent career, so I did OK financially. Only now am I really starting to grapple with what it will take for me to develop a social life - knowing all the well that it'll never be easy, I'll have to be more watchful of things I don't know yet, I have to get out of my comfort zone of doing projects at home by myself, etc. I bet your son also, given the opportunity, can find his own way.

Your wife has health problems. Apparently this inhibits her ability to contribute. Rather than expect the husband to step up and compensate, how about dialing back expectations as a couple? Or, how about hiring someone to assist in the physical chores, leaving her more energy to work on more crucial things such as her own job or your son's needs?

I've seen people with serious health problems pretend they can compensate. Then end up only noticing the physical compensation, and not that they're driving themselves crazy in the attempt.

Why are you doing all this? Who told you to? What goals are driving you to live such frantic lives? What expectations do the two of you have for doing all this?

DD

There are three kinds of business. Your business, my business and God's business. Whose business are you in? -Byron Katie

Last edited by DustyDog; 04-20-2017 at 09:34 AM.
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post #22 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:02 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

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Before the next quote, I'll mention that "doing" is way over-rated. FEELING is the stuff of secure families.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
I didn't see anything about feelings. Without feelings - emotional support of each other - it hardly would be a romantic relationship. Life is about feelings, emotional and spiritual connectedness. In a sense, it sounds as if the two of you have split apart already and are attempting to pretend to have a marriage based on what you "do" not how you feel, how you listen, how you share energy, emotion and spirit.
I think I get what you mean - my wife says the exact opposite. She says feeling is over-rated, and doing is the only thing that counts. We're unusual in the fact that I'm the one who wants to talk about feelings and she does not (I guess the prototypical family is the other way around). I sometimes feel like that too - it feels like I'm pretending to go on, perhaps hoping that going while we through the motions, she will realize what she has and how much it means...

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
This is feeling like a lot of extra-curricular activities for your son. Given his twice-exceptional characteristics, are these activities based on a counselor's recommendation? If so, is the counselor aware that your wife's health prevents her from making a normal level of support contribution?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
Your son has twice-exceptional needs (your words). If these needs mean that he will never integrate with society as normal, then accept it and don't try to compensate. I don't know his condition and in any case, I'm not a counselor on the matter, hopefully you have a proper expert to consult with.

I've been diagnosed with two different mental conditions and have challenged eyesight that prevented me from playing sports as a kid - no social life until college. I have never been able to integrate with normal culture in any kind of an easy way. My parents, thankfully, didn't get in my way and allowed me to find where I was comfortable. I naturally gravitated toward hobbies that I could do without friends, turned one of them into a decent career, so I did OK financially. Only now am I really starting to grapple with what it will take for me to develop a social life - knowing all the well that it'll never be easy, I'll have to be more watchful of things I don't know yet, I have to get out of my comfort zone of doing projects at home by myself, etc. I bet your son also, given the opportunity, can find his own way.
Yes - a lot of them is due to counselor's recommendations. It is "assumed" that all families have loads of free time to spend on their kids during working hours. I guess it's the same assumption that at least one parent does not work. Even when you let health professionals, etc. know about the fact that both of us work, they just revert back to the pre-existing assumption in no time flat. What the system does not do (and the system has huge gaping holes), the parents have to fill in themselves. Note that we have no financial support from the government, school-system, social programs, etc. for our son. It's all from us - and it's my choice to then support him to the best of my ability. I do it because not having that support means I just let him fall down and struggle all his life. If he was severely disabled and never able to function in society/life, it would be one thing - one could make peace with that, but he is one of those kids who will either become a total disaster or a total superhero. He will never be "average". He will be exceptional, and I will help him to not go down the wrong path as much as I can. Imagine a someone with a huge amount of potential, but he does not have the ability to unlock it himself. His incredibly high IQ is hindered by his disabilities. People like him are documented to be at high risk of drug use, early suicide, violence and crime. I won't be able to live with myself if that were to happen.

I could write much, much more, but that would probably be best left for a cross-post in another part of the forums. Suffice to say that with help, our son can be a successful and contributing member of society. Without, he will likely wither and struggle all his life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
Overall, it sounds like the two of you have taken on too much.
You can say that again. It's even something we argue about. I try to convince her that we don;t need to do so much. She's incredibly driven - always have been. Being driven is good if you are directing it properly, but in our case, she's driving herself and by extension, her family well beyond what we all can handle. No-one in our family has the same amount of free time as our peers. Me, her, our son. If she could get the cat to work harder, she would...


Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
What is she doing? No, 2-3 hours is not right. I suspect 90% of what you're doing is attempting to achieve perfection which, by definition, is a waste of time.
She's working close to that much. Like I said, she's incredibly driven. However, she does take naps during the day sometimes, and binge-watches her tv-dramas. (Spoiler: Those don't count) When I hint about those, it's all justified by "I'm tired. You are making me tired because you don't do enough so I can't get enough rest".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
I didn't see anything about feelings. Without feelings - emotional support of each other - it hardly would be a romantic relationship. Life is about feelings, emotional and spiritual connectedness. In a sense, it sounds as if the two of you have split apart already and are attempting to pretend to have a marriage based on what you "do" not how you feel, how you listen, how you share energy, emotion and spirit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DustyDog View Post
Your wife has health problems. Apparently this inhibits her ability to contribute. Rather than expect the husband to step up and compensate, how about dialing back expectations as a couple? Or, how about hiring someone to assist in the physical chores, leaving her more energy to work on more crucial things such as her own job or your son's needs?

I've seen people with serious health problems pretend they can compensate. Then end up only noticing the physical compensation, and not that they're driving themselves crazy in the attempt.

Why are you doing all this? Who told you to? What goals are driving you to live such frantic lives? What expectations do the two of you have for doing all this?
DD
She has health problems, but refuses to bow down. It's an admirable characteristic, when directed properly. She's also a perfectionist and incredibly smart, but struggles to see herself from the outside.

You ask why - we both have a lot of ambition and drive, but that's not the full reason. It's because by now we have forgotten how to relax, forgotten how to dial it back. I haven't had a relaxing holiday since 2003. Yes, we've gone away visiting family on a frantic travel schedule, but the last time I relaxed on a beach (or something) with nothing to do was a long-long time ago. It may be hard to believe, but she has never been on that kind of holiday. I have been trying since I have met her to get her to go on a nice all-inclusive holiday - with no success (yet).

I hope (and dream) that we will be able to dial the frantic hussle of our modern lives down. Some of it has been our own doing, others just plain bad luck.
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post #23 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Thanks everybody for your continued support! I've got some reading to do (hopefully I can sneak that in sometime...).

Update:

She's warmed up to me at least while asleep. She's back at snuggling up to me while sleeping. It confuses the hell out of me - when she wakes up, she realizes she's close and shifts away. Is it her sub-conscious mind at work? It doesn't help that I am a very tactile person and loves it when she snuggles up...

On the other side, she's still researching real-estate prices and finding ways to stage the house for sale. When I say "hey that looks nice", she goes, "Yes, it will make the house easier to sell". Gah! She's also talking to the accountant asking about how to arrange capital gains on our investments - long term stuff for our retirement...

Flip back to the other side and she's wanting to invest in prepping a veggie garden to grow stuff for our family - something that will take time to develop. She also wants to buy an empty lot somewhere together... She also researches high-schools in our area (we're still years away from that).

Why invest together with some-one you plan to split up with? Why stage a house to sell that you want to stay in? Why look for schools 3 years ahead when you want to leave?

I just don't know...

Oh and she's planning a long trip overseas to visit her family (by herself) in December. One one side I think that's a good idea - rest, recharge, see family, get some context. On another side I'm insecure enough in our relationship that I'm worried she'll pull the plug while she's away.

... still of two minds...
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post #24 of 28 (permalink) Old 04-24-2017, 09:24 PM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
There are some parts of her argument that I sadly am starting to agree with, and other parts that I don't.
- Yes, I might just not be a good match for her, and we've taken this long to figure it out - also sticking together for the sake of our son.
- She says openly (to him as well) that she does not have any feeling of love anymore to our son. They fight viciously almost every day. She's told him that she is leaving at some unknown time too. This is not good for any child.
I'm going to respond to this post, particularly the bolded section.

Why are you letting your wife abuse your son? Jesus Christ dude. Sack up. The next time this happens, grab her by the wrist and walk her out of your house. And tell her she can come back when she's not going to abuse her own damn son.

Dude, a child is completely dependent upon their parents for everything. For food. For shelter. For stability. For education. Emotional development. A child can't stand up for themselves. Especially not to a parent. There is no relationship in the world with a greater power disparity than that of mother to child. Abuse of power is bad, but abuse of this power is by definition the worst. A threat of abandonment may as well be a death threat to a child. How the **** can you let someone do that to your own flesh and blood, who depends on you to protect them?

Be a man. Be a father. Do the right thing. Protect your kid.
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post #25 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 12:41 AM Thread Starter
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Unhappy Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Ugh...

I've lost 30lbs of weight (and I was at my ideal weight already), my body is packing it in. I'm still losing 2lbs per day. I literally cannot do more, yet tonight she berated me again. Today I went to see the surgeon for a consultation for exploratory surgery to see what's wrong with me, and when I asked her after the appointment to keep next Thursday open, she didn't want to cancel one of her regular clients to come and pick me up afterwards. "Just use a taxi", she said.

Tonight, with me sitting down after 10pm for the first time to relax for a few minutes, she lays into me about how I don't care about her, how am unreasonable in expecting her to do things because she has more time. She told me that she does not care that I am sick - she won't (and have not) do anything for me. Talked about some specialist in town who works full time and still picks up the kids from school and cooks. Lucky bugger has control over his schedule - I don't, but I get compared piece-by-piece against every other person she meets. So-and-so cleans the house, that guy let his wife go on nice vacations, this guy takes out the garbage, that guy always plays with his kids every day, so-and-so does all the laundry, etc.... I need to be all those guys wrapped into one with none of the liberties or "me time" those guys get.

Oh and when I'm sick, she looks at me like I'm pathetic. Calls me pathetic and weak too. Men are not supposed to get sick or have weaknesses. They're not supposed to talk back when their wife gives them a hard time. Gah... I'm sick now, and no surprise, I'm in trouble for not doing enough. I went shopping yesterday while I took a sick-day off from work due to being sick because I noticed she's not getting to it. No mention of that of course, and if I mention it I'm arguing. She brought up the time I raised my voice at her to stop her from yelling at our son - citing that as a turning point where she realised that I don't care for her. I''m supposed to be 100% on her side no matter what.

I'm sick, tired, exhausted, depressed, sad, and lost. It's really starting to feel like she is out to hurt me as much as she can. I don;t know how I am going to be able to pull through this.

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post #26 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 05:48 AM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

One of the happiest milestone days of my life over the last thirty years was the day my wife (ex) moved out and left the kids with me. After twenty years of trying to make an ungrateful entitled narcissist happy I was exhausted at trying, her leaving was such a relief.

OP you need to get her out of your life, for your sake and your sons. She is emotionally damaging both of you, I can appreciate your feelings of obligation but she is ruining your lives, she needs to go. Personally I'm not sure why you didn't throw her out the minute she turned her hate toward your child, it's one thing to put up with it yourself, but to let your child be emotionally bullied is terrible parenting. Where's your obligation to him?
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post #27 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 09:59 AM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
Ugh...

I've lost 30lbs of weight (and I was at my ideal weight already), my body is packing it in. I'm still losing 2lbs per day. I literally cannot do more, yet tonight she berated me again. Today I went to see the surgeon for a consultation for exploratory surgery to see what's wrong with me, and when I asked her after the appointment to keep next Thursday open, she didn't want to cancel one of her regular clients to come and pick me up afterwards. "Just use a taxi", she said.

Tonight, with me sitting down after 10pm for the first time to relax for a few minutes, she lays into me about how I don't care about her, how am unreasonable in expecting her to do things because she has more time. She told me that she does not care that I am sick - she won't (and have not) do anything for me. Talked about some specialist in town who works full time and still picks up the kids from school and cooks. Lucky bugger has control over his schedule - I don't, but I get compared piece-by-piece against every other person she meets. So-and-so cleans the house, that guy let his wife go on nice vacations, this guy takes out the garbage, that guy always plays with his kids every day, so-and-so does all the laundry, etc.... I need to be all those guys wrapped into one with none of the liberties or "me time" those guys get.

Oh and when I'm sick, she looks at me like I'm pathetic. Calls me pathetic and weak too. Men are not supposed to get sick or have weaknesses. They're not supposed to talk back when their wife gives them a hard time. Gah... I'm sick now, and no surprise, I'm in trouble for not doing enough. I went shopping yesterday while I took a sick-day off from work due to being sick because I noticed she's not getting to it. No mention of that of course, and if I mention it I'm arguing. She brought up the time I raised my voice at her to stop her from yelling at our son - citing that as a turning point where she realised that I don't care for her. I''m supposed to be 100% on her side no matter what.

I'm sick, tired, exhausted, depressed, sad, and lost. It's really starting to feel like she is out to hurt me as much as she can. I don;t know how I am going to be able to pull through this.

You sir are a saint for putting up with all this emotional blackmail. What ever illness you have she is certainly making it worse. She appears to have a personality disorder and if she will not work on fixing it that you for the sake of yourself and your children should not die young waiting for it to fix itself. Pack her suitcase with a ticket with wherever she wants to go and drive her to the airport. If she refuses to get on the plane leave her at the airport. Tell her to go stay at a hotel, to go find an apartment. Remind her that is what she wants and your are not putting up with her constant streams of insults any more, that that part of your life is over.
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post #28 of 28 (permalink) Old 05-04-2017, 10:31 AM
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Re: Of Two Minds - continue or end?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elrin View Post
Ugh...

I've lost 30lbs of weight (and I was at my ideal weight already), my body is packing it in. I'm still losing 2lbs per day. I literally cannot do more, yet tonight she berated me again. Today I went to see the surgeon for a consultation for exploratory surgery to see what's wrong with me, and when I asked her after the appointment to keep next Thursday open, she didn't want to cancel one of her regular clients to come and pick me up afterwards. "Just use a taxi", she said.

Tonight, with me sitting down after 10pm for the first time to relax for a few minutes, she lays into me about how I don't care about her, how am unreasonable in expecting her to do things because she has more time. She told me that she does not care that I am sick - she won't (and have not) do anything for me. Talked about some specialist in town who works full time and still picks up the kids from school and cooks. Lucky bugger has control over his schedule - I don't, but I get compared piece-by-piece against every other person she meets. So-and-so cleans the house, that guy let his wife go on nice vacations, this guy takes out the garbage, that guy always plays with his kids every day, so-and-so does all the laundry, etc.... I need to be all those guys wrapped into one with none of the liberties or "me time" those guys get.

Oh and when I'm sick, she looks at me like I'm pathetic. Calls me pathetic and weak too. Men are not supposed to get sick or have weaknesses. They're not supposed to talk back when their wife gives them a hard time. Gah... I'm sick now, and no surprise, I'm in trouble for not doing enough. I went shopping yesterday while I took a sick-day off from work due to being sick because I noticed she's not getting to it. No mention of that of course, and if I mention it I'm arguing. She brought up the time I raised my voice at her to stop her from yelling at our son - citing that as a turning point where she realised that I don't care for her. I''m supposed to be 100% on her side no matter what.

I'm sick, tired, exhausted, depressed, sad, and lost. It's really starting to feel like she is out to hurt me as much as she can. I don;t know how I am going to be able to pull through this.
Dude, divorce this harpy. Cut her out of your life. Long-term high levels of stress causes all sorts of physical and emotional ailments. Elevated cortisol levels over long periods causes cancer, heart problems, and all sorts of other very nasty things. She is abusive to you and your son. Don't let this continue. Even if you're willing to put up with it, don't let it go on for your kid's sake. Think about his future, and whether or not you want him to grow up thinking this is how a family functions. Do you want him to grow up thinking that his mother is an example of how women should treat their husbands? That his father's current tolerance of this is what he should do in the face of it? Because that's the example being set.

It's terrifying, I know. But you need to do what's right for your kid, and for you. If you need to, cut back on work first, so you can take over primary care of your kid to demonstrate you are the primary custodian in court, and then press for full custody. Do NOT leave your kid in the care of this person.
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