Getting closer to a decision - and staying strong

Beowulf · 04-03-2012, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Struggling4ever

She has apologized profusely about that night. She was having fun and by touchy feely, I just mean she is the type to put her hand on someones arm as she talks. She is animated and talks with her hands. She does not act openly loose or ****ty by any means, like I said, I wish I could be more like her. I actually read into things...if a woman is too friendly or would touch or brush up against me, my mind does think she is coming on to me...and I know I'm not alone and I'm probably incorrect most of the time as well? Evertime she went out to the floor that guy headed at her like a guided missle and she turned around and came back and sat by me. I just watched it all unfold, knew it was coming and she just seems oblivious to it all...

Read you own words here. She was not oblivious. Every time he made a move toward her she came right back TO YOU. Do you not see that? Maybe she should have outright told him to get lost but she might not be the confrontational type. I think you may be missing signs here because you have built up so much resentment. That's not healthy for you or her.

Edit: I hesitated to write this part because I didn't want to incur the wrath of the many nice women here on TAM. Then I thought what the heck.

Is it possible that night she was trying to jolt you into realizing you still had feelings for her? Women tend to have this romantic view that if they get into trouble their white knight will come charging up and save them. Maybe unconsciously she was hoping you would stand up for her when that guy kept going after her? I don't know. Just throwing it out there.

Catherine602 · 04-03-2012, 08:42 PM

What Beowulf said.
I had the same feeling when I read your post. She seemed to want you to claim her, to protect her, show everyone that she is with you and back off. This may not be you but I think you should perfect showing ownership.

I may be wrong but I doubt that there are many woman who would object to their man letting every other man in the room know "she is with me". Not obviously but subtly.

Let me ask, could you or have you ever respond to her over-friendliness by acting possessive? How would she have responded if you took her by the hand and sat her down beside you?

bandit.45 · 04-03-2012, 09:36 PM

Beowulf and Cat have some good points here.
Posted via Mobile Device

Halien · 04-04-2012, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine602

What Beowulf said.
I had the same feeling when I read your post. She seemed to want you to claim her, to protect her, show everyone that she is with you and back off. This may not be you but I think you should perfect showing ownership.

I may be wrong but I doubt that there are many woman who would object to their man letting every other man in the room know "she is with me". Not obviously but subtly.

Let me ask, could you or have you ever respond to her over-friendliness by acting possessive? How would she have responded if you took her by the hand and sat her down beside you?

I'll probably be the only one, but while I wondered about this being a part of her response, wanting him to claim her, I think it only supports the doubts that Struggling has, and I think it would be childish and unacceptable for her to allow this response. Much better for her to just act decisively with the other man.

With just about any other woman, I would probably agree with the advice.

Certain life stories I keep to myself, because I don't think anyone would really understand, missing the context. My wife did have a situation where she found it really hard to shut down a man's attempts to get closer to her. This man served under my wife's dad a few years before in the military, but was much younger. After multiple improper comments were casually brushed aside by my wife, he took that to be indecison on my wife's part, and made a very blatant pass when he followed her into a private area. When I noticed this guy's attitude toward her, I had told my wife that she wouldn't like it if I was the one who had to stand up for her when she was too timid to hurt his feelings. The first time he said something questionable, I asked him if he was sure that this came out right, and he backtraced. But I had the feeling that he was trying to get to her around me as the evening progressed. It was a very alpha sexual pass when he finally made his move, where he met her in the bedroom of our vacation house while she was coming out of the bathroom when we were having a party. Thing was, he knew she was married. It was long ago. My wife and I turned it into a very visible learning experience of zero tolerance for not respecting boundaries. Obviously, my FIL's friendship with the guy ended after he had to explain the bruises and swelling.

I think far too many guys pressure themselves, elevating their wife to a position in the relationship where she can require him to keep her from getting into affairs, in essence, through taking on the role of jumping through her hoops. How many women would really accept the role of chasing after their husband every time she feared that he was getting into a potential sexual tryst? I'm really talking about something very subtle - the relationship dynamic where she holds the upper hand, and allows her husband to be the vulnerable one. Maybe she clings to her right to talk to single men at a dance, because it is harmless, twisting his concern into the impression that he is an ogre. She can skirt the sexual boundaries, but he cannot. This elevates her role to one of calling the shots, and easy fitness testing.

Struggling took this role early in the marriage where his wife's position became elevated, so he could not hold the same expectations for her that she took for granted in him. She had an affair, and he was guilted into taking the blame. His wife, in my opinion, doesn't know how to elevate him to the same level of importance in the relationship. She would never dream of holding herself accountable to the things she expected of him. She's so used to being the one who can flitter about around the edges of his boundaries, that it is just natural.

My point is that Struggling should take advantage of showing her that he will be passionate about his love for her, but his wife testing this through her inability to respect boundaries is not a healthy way to do it for a woman who has already given to infidelity. Certainly not someone who is trying to save her marriage.

I wouldn't have recommended standing by on that night. I would've recommended going to her after the second time, in front of the guy, and told him that my wife was unavailable. Then I would've told her it was decision time for her.

Beowulf · 04-04-2012, 11:05 AM

While I agree with you in theory Halien, Struggling has kept his marriage in limbo for so long maybe his wife was trying to gauge his feelings one way or another while hoping to pull him out of state of purgatory. The fact that she kept going back to him whenever this man approached at least says to me that SHE thought of herself as Struggling's woman. I don't think that should be ignored.

Edit: One other thing. This is my opinion only but no one should need or want to elevate their spouse to a level of importance. If you assume the stature of importance it will either be recognized or the relationship will crumble. I know my personal value and if someone chooses to look down on me, whether it be a spouse, a friend or just an acquiescence that person will not be in my life very long. Just like nobody can make you happy, nobody can dictate your substance as an individual and a person.

Halien · 04-04-2012, 11:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beowulf

While I agree with you in theory Halien, Struggling has kept his marriage in limbo for so long maybe his wife was trying to gauge his feelings one way or another while hoping to pull him out of state of purgatory. The fact that she kept going back to him whenever this man approached at least says to me that SHE thought of herself as Struggling's woman. I don't think that should be ignored.

Edit: One other thing. This is my opinion only but no one should need or want to elevate their spouse to a level of importance. If you assume the stature of importance it will either be recognized or the relationship will crumble. I know my personal value and if someone chooses to look down on me, whether it be a spouse, a friend or just an acquiescence that person will not be in my life very long. Just like nobody can make you happy, nobody can dictate your substance as an individual and a person.

I wonder if I go off on a tangent when I suggest this, but a parallel issue, in my opinion, is that we often languish in limbo not because we don't have answers, but because we can't get our arms around what question to ask. What is really bugging us, or preventing us from getting an answer from the other person?

Does that make sense? I'm suggesting that you raised a very real issue, but if I were in Struggling's shoes, there is this whole ambiguous unsettled question that prevents a person like me from deciding what to do.

Me, I suspect that he want's to know if their marriage really meant the same to her in the past. What will their marriage really mean going forward?

I hate to drag my own past into another person's thread, but maybe this will explain - I had some major abandonment issues as a child. Not only did my mother give up parental rights for a time, there was initially a huge issue of whether my foster care would be managed by the state or by tribal services, because my mother didn't provide birth records at the time I was put into foster care.

As an adult, a therapist helped me to learn that when we experience betrayal from someone so close, whether childhood abandonment, or infidelity, the betrayal itself isn't really the only source of emotional pain. After betrayal, some people begin to have real doubts about the meaning of the relationship in general, whether it is husband/wife or parent/child. Some people develop and hold closely to a view of marriage or family that is almost spiritual in nature. The betrayal shatters something that we may have held to be incredibly important.

Hope I'm not getting too personal, but I fear that Struggling's internal idea of marriage, and what it meant, was turned upside down in one event that occurred years ago, and he was immediately placed into a position of inferiority by the counseling they received, so he didn't deal with it. I don't think that apologies or remorse are enough to help a man in limbo. In whatever language speaks to him, he needs to hear that her view of marriage going forward is the same as his.

When I talk about elevate our spouse's above or below ourself, I'm not talking about an intentional act. Whether we want to admit it or not, many men inherently view ourself as being less mature than our wife when we marry. We jokingly look at marriage as having to "grow up", or lose some of our independence. If relationship issues arise, its easy to see our wife as the more mature person in complex interrelationship issues, and defer to her in some ways. Well, the marriage counselor only reinforced this after Struggling's wife had the affair. He took more than his fair share of the blame. When you speak of this interrealtionship in the context of "looking up" to another person, or "looking down", he is looking up to her position in the marriage, and she developed into a pattern of looking down at his position. Hence the double standard - she could flirt or be the social butterfly, but she would go ballistic if he did the same. Inevitably, when this paradigm exists, there will be a time where the one in the "looking up" position will seek a levelling, or equal standing in the relationship. Every couple words this differently if it happens to them. I'm only suggesting that Struggling needs to find the way to frame the questions that end his doubts. To frame the new relationship expectations going forward, as it should have been done after the infidelity.

DailyGrind · 04-04-2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catherine602

What Beowulf said.
I had the same feeling when I read your post. She seemed to want you to claim her, to protect her, show everyone that she is with you and back off. This may not be you but I think you should perfect showing ownership.

I may be wrong but I doubt that there are many woman who would object to their man letting every other man in the room know "she is with me". Not obviously but subtly.

Let me ask, could you or have you ever respond to her over-friendliness by acting possessive? How would she have responded if you took her by the hand and sat her down beside you?

I had the same feeling, sorry to say. You telling her "I thought you wanted to dance" seemed like you weretrying to set her up....reinforcing your view of her. Sorry...that was my first thought.

Struggling4ever · 04-04-2012, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halien

As an adult, a therapist helped me to learn that when we experience betrayal from someone so close, whether childhood abandonment, or infidelity, the betrayal itself isn't really the only source of emotional pain.

After betrayal, some people begin to have real doubts about the meaning of the relationship in general, whether it is husband/wife or parent/child. Some people develop and hold closely to a view of marriage or family that is almost spiritual in nature. The betrayal shatters something that we may have held to be incredibly important.

Hope I'm not getting too personal, but I fear that Struggling's internal idea of marriage, and what it meant, was turned upside down in one event that occurred years ago,

he didn't deal with it. I don't think that apologies or remorse are enough to help a man in limbo.

double standard - she could flirt or be the social butterfly, but she would go ballistic if he did the same. Inevitably, when this paradigm exists, there will be a time where the one in the "looking up" position will seek a levelling, or equal standing in the relationship. Every couple words this differently if it happens to them. I'm only suggesting that Struggling needs to find the way to frame the questions that end his doubts. To frame the new relationship expectations going forward, as it should have been done after the infidelity.

BINGO!!!
That is exactly my view of what marriage should be. I feel no matter what you are dealing with - you are faithful, or you leave...no "double dipping"!

Struggling4ever · 04-04-2012, 02:08 PM

Something you probably didn't know. When I met my wife I was 20, she was 17. I was married and had been for 2 years. I got married at 18 (right out of high school) to the first girl I'd ever dated. I knew as I was saying my vows it was wrong, but I'd never even broken up with anyone, so how could I call off a wedding? It was a disaster from day 1. She didn't drive, didn't want to...she would get a job and we would get into a fight and she'd say I'm not going to work and she'd quit. She drank way to much and basically used me as a way to get out of her abusive broken home and party...I was never happy.

One day I was driving down the street, my present wife whistled...I turned around and pulled over and we started talking. She was attractive, fun, and she had a 6 month old (the babies father abandoned them). I had a 1 year old (who was always with me) I wasn't happy and I admired that she was in such a bad situation yet took such good care of herself and her daughter. I think I have always been attracted to people who needed me? I always want to help them... or fix them.....

Anyway, didn't see her again for awhile but I sure thought about her, and one day at a corner store she was with a group of people and one of them was a friend of mine. We did start to see each other. I talked about my problems and my daughter, she talked about hers. I started to pick her up in my 74 Cuda (I always said she whistled at the car, not me) and we'd go for rides and eventually this lead to making out and kissing. She felt bad because although I said I wasn't happy, I was married it it was wrong. I felt bad because I was married and I knew it was wrong, but I made a decision. I told my wife I wasn't happy. I had often said "If this is your idea of being married, then I don't want it". And I moved out. I wasn't honest about why, I just said I wasn't happy and needed some time...but I moved out.

It was then that my present wife and I took our relationship to the next level. So in recent arguments over the past year, she has made it very clear that I am a cheater too! She's right, I was, I'm not proud, but I was a 20 yr. old naive kid in a bad situation. But I did what I did and it was wrong. But I didn't have a full blown physical ongoing affair with my wifes best friend, while staying with my wife professing my love for her. I knew I wasn't happy and I wanted out and I took action.

So that is what I mean by morals, personal boundaries, etc.
I did have an affair. I knew it was wrong. I left my wife. But I should have been honest! After I left, her father died, she was lost, fell in with a bad crowd, and she turned to hard drugs (heroin) and prostitution. I ended up getting custody of our daughter which forced her into counciling and getting clean. She has always stayed drug free as far as I know but she had been in several bad relationships and her other kids are all a mess....drugs, theft, living with the Dad, you name it!

I think this has a lot to do with why I couldn't or didn't leave, and still have troubles doing it? I have broke up with 1 woman in my life and things went really bad! I do have love for my wife and I don't want to see her struggle or have bad things happen to her, but my role seems to be to take care of her. Because of my strong commitment to what I believe marriage should be, and based on how horrid her affair really was, and all of the lives besides mine that were screwed up because of this, I don't want to live with all that any longer. Yes it will still be with me, but down the road if I am with someone else and I have a memory or trigger, I'll know it wasn't the person I'm with that did this to me and to me that matters!

Halien · 04-04-2012, 03:16 PM

Struggling, its hard to see how she could equate something you did long ago, in a previous marriage to what happened while the two of you were married. But this could be her way of trying to point out that there were mistakes on both side, and she wants to move forward.

I think you should really try to break down the different factors in the marriage that are leaving you in limbo. While her affair and the time after that was horrible for you, it seems that there is a longer lasting narrative that is really unresolved, as we talked about. Personally, if you haven't already done it, I think you should write out some points about what you want your marriage to mean going forward. Don't spare the parts that might be easy prey to her practical tendencies. Talk about what you don't want it to be, also. Just be real about what you want. I think there is power in discussing this with her. This is all about getting to the place where you can see her eyes light up with emotion, which lets you know that she is ready to make this happen.

Encourage her to do the same after she sees the direction you are going with yours.

No matter what, there will be areas where she just doesn't get it. But you describe so many strong personality traits in her that make up for this.

I do think she really wants to buy in to your shared vision for your marriage, as the other's suggest. She just probably doesn't understand that there are these unanswered questions in your mind.

As Beowulf and Catherine suggested, your newfound confidence in yourself can really inspire her to respond very positively to the things you do. If you really put questions and answers together to settle your doubts, the next part of rebuilding can be incredible.

Catherine602 · 04-05-2012, 06:59 PM

I did not mean to imply that you use your wife. She is human so why would that be a solution to living a more whole and happy life?

I am asking you to step it up and really be in the relationship. Make the changes in your=self that your wife needs, if you love her enough. Also do it for you personally and her. Even if she cannot make the changes in her self that wil facilitate the marriage, she will learn what is missing and may be better for it in her next relationship.

Working on the relationship is a commitment to work on it towards the goal of staying together. It is not a commitment to stay together, i din't think. If you see it that way and make that clear to your wife then how are you using her? She is fully aware as is only fair.

Darth Vader · 04-23-2012, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Struggling4ever

Ok...well after the above night I said I will no longer go there... I stopped in again last Wednesday (that's a night all her/our friends are there with free lessons and no cover). I was just having a drink that a friend (guy) bought me and planned on staying for an hour or so. My wife was dancing having a good time and I decided to do a walk around the bar to see if any friends that I knew might be there. My older son has many friends that go to this place as well and they often like to say hi. As I walk around the corner I see the woman (one of them anyway) that apparently my wife feels threatened by. I said hi and said I haven't been here in awhile, the last time was a week and a half ago when we had the Blue Moons...she said yeah I've been working a lot that was the last time I was here too. I said well have a good night, and I proceeded to walk around the outer perimeter of the dance floor and eventually made my way back where I started. I had 1 more drink and went home. Nothing more was said that night...

A couple nights later I had shown my wife and son a new software update on their phones and they started the update. I was playing guitar in the living room and also checking my phone and my wife was having problems with the download for her update and was mumbling about it and I stopped and went in to help. I then went back in to the living room and she was again having a problem. I actually started to get irritated and I yelled give me a minute, I'm checking my phone! The calm finally ended and she went off about me being on my phone and me enjoying my space, and me having my private life.etc, etc, etc... She actually was upset enough she said F you (which doesn't often happen) and I said it back and I retreated upstairs.

That night as I was getting ready for bed (in my room), she finally came in and unloaded on me...She said I was sneaking around and I'm a cheater as well, she called me a thief (because of a few items I bought home from work that were being discarded, as well as something that had been left there by my friend who had quit and moved away), she called me manipulative, a liar....and this went on and on! She also then brought up last Wednesday when we we were at the "dancehall/saloon" and she said I saw how you managed to sneak around the corner to talk to #@**#, I watched you! You thought cause I was dancing I wouldn't notice but you went around the corner, talked to her, and then walked around the entire bar thinking I wouldn't notice! I said, wow...you actually were watching me the entire time weren't you? I told her I did nothing wrong and that although she claims to not trust the "girls", in reality she doesn't trust me, because if she did they would be a non-issue! I tried to reason and she would say - that's right, you are mr. perfect who never does anything wrong, you have an answer for everything! I also tried to explain about the equipment and said I could have done all that behind her back too if I was trying to be sneaky or do something wrong, but no it was all in the open, we went together to a gathering of friends and I dropped it off...(we even took pictures) so again...I always thought everything was ok and now I find she was harboring resentment over that as well, and now I am a thief too?!!

Because of her verbal assault, I almost left again that night but I really have nowhere to go and right now we have no extra money! I stayed, she eventually went to sleep and we have been back to not saying much to each other. We started to talk yesterday but she actually started in about how she thought she was ok with the past situation with my friend from work who moved away over 6 months ago, but apparently she's not and was making all of our issues about me again! I said you are just not ok with me in general and it all comes down to you did me wrong big time...I forgave you and gave you trust, and you can't/don't trust me! I then re-enforced that I will not allow her to make our problems about me and what she believes I've done, this is about what happened in the past and I am finally dealing with it whether she can accept it or not... I had plans to go out on my own last night but a mutual friend stopped over to help my son with a "project bike" and we all just hung out at home and then to bed...alone. Today is a new day!

You realize your wife is the manipulative liar, right? She sounds very controling to me. From the way I see it, your wife can't take the pain (you talking with other women) that you have endured. Your wife, or rather STBX, is starting to see what she's done to you and she doesn't like what she sees. Just my point of view.

oldmittens · 11-17-2012, 01:51 AM

Hello S4E hope this are well. Was hoping you could update us all did you divorce your wife after???

Bafuna · 11-24-2012, 07:38 AM

I also think you didnt really deal with what happened 11 years ago properly and leaving does not mean you are dealing with it, you could still find yourself alone or with someone else but still not having forgiven which I think is the issue here....forgive her, leave? stay? I dont know, but forgive....so that you can move on with your life with or without her.

Struggling4ever · 12-01-2012, 03:27 PM

Wow... I just saw it's been 8 months since my last post! I hate to say this but all these months later and I am still not committed to the marriage and am still somewhat lost. I am however stronger and not the same person I was when this all came back out into the open. Through many months of weekly therapy I have learned a lot about myself and why I did the things I did as well as what really happened in my head with my "friend" who moved away 1 1/2 years ago. I understand now that she was never more than a friend, she came into my life for a reason, and I understand what drew me to her emotionally. She never thought of me as more than a friend, I was the one who got things confused, and we only talk on rare occasion (a few times in 1 1/2 years). She was in town recently for a few weeks helping her daughter move into a new home and asked for my help with a few things. (I'm a former contractor).. I said no because not only was I busy, I said it wouldn't be fair to my wife to help her when I don't have time to finish projects in my own house. I was also asked to go to lunch with her and another coworker and I said no to that as well. The day she asked me to go to lunch, and I said no, she did say she was leaving that weekend and would like to at least see me and say hi before leaving town, so we did meet for coffee, and although it was only about 30 minutes, my wife blew up about it. She sent her a text and told me I was to either cut off all communication or we were done... my choice.

I threw it back at her, said we were never more than friends, it was never sexual, and that I learned in therapy that she was just a friend who was going through a similar situation and came into my life for a reason (our jobs caused us to work together daily for 3 years). In those 3 years we never met outside of work (unless spouses and coworkers were included). We never had lunch, coffee, drinks, anything... we just became good friends. I believe she was there was to help me get my feelings out in the open and now that they are, I can deal with them. I said my problem is I have always let her blame our problems on anything or anyone else, and never on her affair with my "best friend"... and I was no longer going to allow that to happen! She apologized the next morning and actually said she knows I'm a good man and she realizes she is trying to control me, and that she wants to try couples counselling. I told her that after all that has happened, I'm not so sure I do, but I will give it a chance considering all of our history because learning to communicate is a good thing regardless of what happens.. Yes I am stronger, but I still don't like hurting her.

We had another episode a few months back where she made me feel uncomfortable at a bar we go to for live music shows. It was not that she did anything too out of line but I explained that because of our history it doesn't take much for me to feel uncomfortable. She went off on me and said she would call our son and start walking home. I tried and tried to calm her down as she yelled terrible things at me while I drove slowly along the side of the rode across the street from her. I would not leave her alone as it was a dark 2 lane highway3 towns away from where we live... It was a terrible night and we didn't talk for a few days and then she started acting loving and was trying to move on together like nothing ever happened.. This has happened 3 times in the past 8 months (that I remember) so this has something to do with why I don't really believe her when she acts like we are good! The good thing that has happened is that I am stronger, I stand up to her, and I tell her it is ok if she gets mad. I tell her I don't really care either way...I choose to be happy! Of course she doesn't like this because the manipulation no longer works, but she seems to be coming around to it. I have let her know in no uncertain terms that I will no longer accept the "double standard" where she can talk to whoever/whenever, and I have to walk on eggshells around women... I told her I will be myself when we're out (still showing her respect) and if she chooses to get mad, that's ok... and I told her that although getting my feelings out in the open has been hard on her and our marriage, it had to happen for me to ever get better, and I feel better than I have in years! Give me a few more months and I believe I'll either be all in or on the way out... Thanks for asking how I'm doing. I still lean towards leaving, but I just can't commit... it's all or nothing!