If you read the walk away stuff, you should know that most women do state what they want and need but because they do not threaten to leave, b/c they think that a loving spouse will respond lovingly to expressed needs, they keep trying--by stating what they want and need in different ways, to see if they can "get through" to this person who is supposed to love and cherish them. What they typically find is a temporary response--a man who will do as little as possible to "get his wife off his back," and then secretly be glad when she stops expressing needs (which he views as criticism and nagging), and allow themselves to slide back as soon as they can get away with it. To say that *most* women do NOT tell their men exactly what they want and need is misrepresenting the situation, when it comes to what the WAW research shows. I'm not saying all men are like this--by no means. But a lot of men (and women too, b/c there are "walk away husbands," ) view marriage in what is primarily a negative way--"you are stuck with me now, and I'm going to do as little as possible so I can enjoy what I like w/o having to work too hard to meet your needs." It's an immature response.
The biggest mistake the WAW makes is thinking she can continue to live w/o her needs met--because that is the decision she makes after several years of effort, and she makes that decision b/c she DOES value the commitment and the children and does not want to break up the family.
I was a WAW, and my ex could not deny that I cherished him--I supported what he wanted to do, and cheerfully so--whether it was big (like career related) or little (he wanted to join a tennis team). I never refused sex for at least the first 10 years. I treated him lovingly--and continued to do so after it became clear he was not going to meet my needs. I assumed he was simply incapable, and so I tried hard to make it without those needs met.
When I pointed out to my ex (before the divorce) that I had consistently expressed needs for several years before I gave up, his response was, "Well, how was I to know it was important? You didn't scream or cry or anything." I was stunned--you mean I have to scream at someone who is supposed to love me, and has promised to cherish me, to get his attention? Besides, I also knew darn well that if I had screamed or cried or threatened to leave, he would have done the same thing--met my needs for a while, then started back sliding. The bottom line was that his behavior had taught me that my needs were actually not very important to him. I was never interested in playing a game, like "well, if you don't meet my needs, I won't meet yours!" because that seemed even more doomed to failure, was not consistent with my vows, and would have made him resentful instead of bringing about change.
After I gave up trying to get him to meet my needs, I started finding other ways to get those needs met--friends, family, myself. He became irrelevant, basically, to my happiness. I viewed him as another child needing my care, and *that* is when I started finding it harder to have sex with him. Eventually, I reached the point where I realized I could NOT have sex with him, so I realized it was time to leave. Up to that point, leaving had never really been an option (although I considered it many times) because I was committed to my family. But you can't be married to someone you cannot bring yourself to have sex with.
I'm writing this b/c some of the men in this thread are blaming their wives for "not giving them a chance," and knowing my own history, I would say that they are really saying that their wives should give them one more chance--after many chances have already been given. From a wife's point of view, there were many chances--and until the husband realized HIS cozy little world was going to be affected, he simply didn't care enough to make anything of those chances. It's like, the ex didn't really care about me or my happiness-it was only when his own was about to be disturbed that he finally decided to make an effort. That's not love--that is pure and utter selfishness. And the wife makes the decision--no, it is finally MY turn to be selfish--because if I don't take care of myself, you sure as heck won't, because even now, all that motivates you is your selfishness, not love for me.
I cannot possibly know if my way of seeing the WAW thing applies in the situations of the men here--or the women. But I think this other point of view needs to be considered. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when a woman says she is "done," it means she has recognized that she and her husband have mutually exclusive selfish needs--and she has finally chosen to take care of herself. The relief she feels at realizing her ordeal is over is the biggest barrier to reconciliation.
I do find it curious how many men have posted incredulously about the WAW syndrom and in the same breath acknowledge they think their wives 'checked out' of the marriage years prior.
One might ask the very hard question "If you saw her checking out, why didn't you do something then?"
If you love her so much, why didn't you ask then?
If you love her so much, why didn't you listen then?
If you love her so much, why didn't you meet her needs then?
If you love her so much, why did you withold affection and attention then?
I do think some of these men need to get real about how/why they have ended up where they are now.
Waiting until your wife is one foot out the door to suddenly "get it" and do a big change seems almost more insulting.
To me it indicates knowledge of what should have been done all along but the spouse was too lazy/selfish to do so until their way of life is threatened.
But that is just my opinion and I am in a really crappy mood.
I do find it curious how many men have posted incredulously about the WAW syndrom and in the same breath acknowledge they think their wives 'checked out' of the marriage years prior.
One might ask the very hard question "If you saw her checking out, why didn't you do something then?"
If you love her so much, why didn't you ask then?
If you love her so much, why didn't you listen then?
If you love her so much, why didn't you meet her needs then?
If you love her so much, why did you withold affection and attention then?
I do think some of these men need to get real about how/why they have ended up where they are now.
Waiting until your wife is one foot out the door to suddenly "get it" and do a big change seems almost more insulting.
To me it indicates knowledge of what should have been done all along but the spouse was too lazy/selfish to do so until their way of life is threatened.
But that is just my opinion and I am in a really crappy mood.
Yep. I isolated myself and did not communicate anything during the last few years. Communication between us had been lagging for years.
That being said, neither of us can remember stating exactly to the other how miserable we were, or our M was.
I find myself farther in the hole in that I had to recover from depression (loving myself) as well as addressing the M, and loving my W. Now that she is on her way out, it is a slap in the face.
Did I take my W for granted? Yes. Our M for granted? Yes. Did my W ever talk to me about it? No. Only NOW does she mention how miserable she was (10 out of 12 years). She isn't sure I ever loved her. And various revisionist history--we were never happy, always this or that....Really??? And NOW you're telling me all of this when you feel safe enough to say you're not coming back and giving me a chance?
Reading 5LL, I'm sure we spoke different languages and did not consider any other. We continued our same actions.
Why I (and, I suspect, many separated women) regret divorcing
By Jane Gordon
Last weekend, at a family wedding in the country, I was overwhelmed by an emotion that has, in the last year, become only too familiar to me.
Sitting in a stifling marquee, listening to my cousin Sally's husband making the traditional father-of-the-bride speech, I was overcome by a feeling that was part envy, part guilt and part regret.
My cousin's marriage, which has lasted for 25 years, is by no means perfect - what marriage is? - but against the odds, she has achieved something that is now, and always will be, beyond my grasp.
As I looked at her sitting happy and radiant at the top table, laughing uproariously at her husband's far from funny jokes, I realised that, in a world that has horribly devalued the institution of marriage, she was reaping the benefits of putting the love and security of her family first, before any disagreements she might have with her husband in the rough and tumble of daily life.
Watching her united with her husband on such an emotional occasion reminded me sharply of exactly what I had lost - but had no idea I was losing - seven years ago, when I got divorced from my husband, the father of my three children, after 25 years together.
Our relationship had broken down, I can now see, not because of any petty irritations such as his lateness or my untidiness, but because we had both moved irrevocably away from each other.
In the past few years of our marriage, I was more absorbed in my children and my career than I was in my husband while he, feeling increasingly isolated, simply switched off.
It's a scenario that will be familiar to many couples. But how many of them choose to separate, and how many have the gumption to stick it out?
The trouble is nobody tells you the truth about divorce. They tell you it's a 'difficult' experience, and it's generally accepted that the process sits somewhere near the top of the ten most stressful life events.
But in the main it is regarded by society as a necessary evil. A milestone which, in an age when two in five UK marriages will fail, millions of us will go through at some point in our lives.
Indeed, in many ways, divorce is given a more positive spin in our confused modern world than marriage is.
The drawbacks of divorce are believed to be mostly either financial - as if the splitting up of the spoils of a life together were the very worst part of the process - or the fallout experienced by the children.
Little is ever said about the longer-term effects of divorce on the couple. No one ever points out that the repercussions of a marital split will reverberate down the timeline of your life forever.
This week, the Conservatives published a report commissioned by Iain Duncan Smith which proposed a three-month 'cooling off' period for couples considering divorce.
But the idea that couples would be ready to rethink their break-up after such a short period is unrealistic.
As I have discovered the hard way, it is only now, seven years after I received my decree nisi, that I am starting to realise the gravity of what I have done.
If it has taken me this long for the seismic shockwaves of divorce to really hit home, how are warring couples expected to take an informed decision about separation when they are in the midst of the rows, the tension and the recrimination that so often accompany the death throes of a marriage?
It is only now that I am experiencing something akin to the seven-year 'itch' of marriage; the seven-year 'ache' of divorce, a regular recurrence of the emotion I experienced at that recent wedding - a pang, a regret for what has gone for ever.
There is much in my post-divorced life that I am grateful for and happy about. I have gained a new partner and two stepchildren, and our 'blended' family is more harmonious than anyone could have expected.
My ex-husband, who is a media consultant, has 'moved on' to a perfectly ordered and elegant bachelor apartment and a social life (with a series of ever-younger girlfriends) that is the envy of his old married friends.
On the surface, we have 'come through' our split relatively unscathed. But however contented I might be with my new partner Robin - and he with me - we realise that our relationship is, well, somehow second-best.
Our true loyalties lie not with our new 'blended' family, but with our own biological children and the ex-partners from whom we were both amicably divorced.
The important occasions in family life which I used to love - birthdays, Christmas and so on - are now difficult, trying times.
They are unsatisfactory no matter how hard we try; whether my partner and I attempt - as we have on several occasions - to unite our new and old lives or agree to simply be apart for the 'sake' of our children.
Now, for example, we spend Christmas apart - each ensconced with our children and ex-partners - which causes huge tension between us and has made us both dread the annual celebrations.
When my husband and I parted, my view of divorce was simplistic. I believed in the notion of divorce as a clean break and imagined a 'fresh start' would solve all my problems.
It wasn't a decision made lightly, but I had no idea of the true complexity of unravelling a life that had been led in tandem with someone else for more than 20 years.
It was the death of my parents, within six months of each other in 2008, that was the catalyst for my change of heart.
At my father's funeral, my brother made a moving address about the formidable achievements of an extraordinary man. He concluded that the greatest achievement of all was his remarkable partnership - over 60 years - with my mother.
The fact that I had not been able to give my own children the security that I had taken for granted shamed and upset me almost as much as the loss of my adored parents.
My children hadn't lost their parents when my husband and I divorced, but they had lost their family home and the continuity of family life that makes the journey from childhood to adulthood so much more comforting and secure.
It was at that funeral that I first experienced the feeling - part envy, part guilt and part regret - that has haunted me ever since.
With my new partner sympathetically sitting by my side and my ex-husband (who shared so much of my family history and yet had somehow been edited out of it), standing in the gallery, I truly understood what I had lost.
And there have been countless other moments in the past year when I have experienced similar feelings.
Last month, I attended a dinner party thrown by a close female friend whose own marriage had shifted perilously close to the edge of divorce, shortly after mine did, because her husband had an affair.
At the time of my break-up, my view of other people's marriages was as skewed as my view of my own, and I viewed her reluctance to divorce in a cynical way - imagining that her main motivation was her fear of losing her status as a married woman.
But I now see there was a much more selfless reason for her tenacity. Because a marriage, however imperfect, isn't just important in the happy moments of life - a child's graduation or wedding for example - but also in the bad times.
Shortly after my friend and her errant husband were reunited, he lost his high-flying City job and he now admits that it would not have been possible for him to recover from that (they started a successful new business together) without her love and support.
Their relationship has changed - my friend admits that she is still wounded by his infidelity - but losing her trust in him for a time is nothing to what she would have lost had she gone ahead with her divorce.
Back then, I couldn't understand her ability to accept his behaviour. But now I have nothing but admiration for the way she was able to take a longer view of her own marriage.
Indeed, I have a similar sense of admiration and envy for a handful of other still-married friends whose relationships I had viewed somewhat cynically because they displayed such open animosity towards each other.
A good marriage - I now realise - is dependent upon the ability of both partners occasionally to be selfless and to compromise.
It is, of course, ironic that divorce has strengthened my belief in marriage. But then the years haven't just changed my view of divorce; they have inevitably blurred my memory of the reasons for our split.
Somewhere in my new home there is a large brown envelope filled with the reasons why we parted, duly noted down by lawyers, but the passage of time has made those mutually exasperating irritations seem petty.
In 2002, they were real and seemingly insurmountable. Had someone told me the truth about divorce then - explained exactly how, in the years ahead, it would impact on my life - perhaps we would still be together.
It is impossible to go back, but at the same time my divorce makes it difficult for me to move forward.
Maybe one day my new partner and I will marry, but the impact of our break-ups - he divorced several years before me - has so far prevented us from making a legal commitment to each other.
Our mutual fears that re-marriage will somehow invalidate our original families, and his concerns about the financial loss he would endure should our marriage subsequently break down, make the notion of a wedding unlikely.
But my divorce hasn't just had a major impact on the likelihood of re-marrying. I worry, too, that it has affected my children's view of marriage.
Will the repercussions of my break-up not only reverberate down the timeline of my life but also the timelines of my children's lives?
My daughters were 19 and 22 when I divorced and my son, who lives with me, was just ten.
Seven years on, my daughters are both much more focused on their careers than their love-lives, and show no sign of settling down in the way that my cousin Sally's daughter - several years younger - has done.
The long-term effects of my divorce, then, may not only deny me the opportunity to be a bride again and thus, in some way, legitimise my new relationship in the eyes of the world.
But they also could prevent me from being the mother-of-the-bride and - ultimately - a grandmother.
To paraphrase William Congreve's famous quote: 'Divorce in haste, repent at leisure.'
I do find it curious how many men have posted incredulously about the WAW syndrom and in the same breath acknowledge they think their wives 'checked out' of the marriage years prior.
One might ask the very hard question "If you saw her checking out, why didn't you do something then?"
If you love her so much, why didn't you ask then?
If you love her so much, why didn't you listen then?
If you love her so much, why didn't you meet her needs then?
If you love her so much, why did you withold affection and attention then?
I do think some of these men need to get real about how/why they have ended up where they are now.
Waiting until your wife is one foot out the door to suddenly "get it" and do a big change seems almost more insulting.
To me it indicates knowledge of what should have been done all along but the spouse was too lazy/selfish to do so until their way of life is threatened.
But that is just my opinion and I am in a really crappy mood.
I find this post extremely sad. Its a fact that women and men communicate differently. A wife may feel she is communicating her issues in a very real way but her husband isn't really understanding the issues or how important they are. And please do not say that men should learn to listen better or I will say that women should learn to speak more clearly. Neither of those is the issue. Its not individual communication that is the problem, its INTER communication that is the issue. Frankly I feel that if the spouse is willing to work on the problem regardless of how long it took them to get there you should give them the opportunity to try. To do anything less is not necessarily selfish but IMO is truly a missed opportunity for happiness. To say why didn't he/she do it sooner just sounds like pettiness to me considering what is at stake.
I find this post extremely sad. Its a fact that women and men communicate differently. A wife may feel she is communicating her issues in a very real way but her husband isn't really understanding the issues or how important they are. And please do not say that men should learn to listen better or I will say that women should learn to speak more clearly. Neither of those is the issue. Its not individual communication that is the problem, its INTER communication that is the issue. Frankly I feel that if the spouse is willing to work on the problem regardless of how long it took them to get there you should give them the opportunity to try. To do anything less is not necessarily selfish but IMO is truly a missed opportunity for happiness. To say why didn't he/she do it sooner just sounds like pettiness to me considering what is at stake.
And, I think our children would ask for another shot as well.
But, we dumpees, have to suck it up. Accept it. Move on. Find someone who will truly love us. At least that's what I hear and understand.
Again, my W detached, pulled away, all the while married; relying on me, other family members, etc. Now, when it's forced upon me, I can't rely on the same support group.
If you read the walk away stuff, you should know that most women do state what they want and need but because they do not threaten to leave, b/c they think that a loving spouse will respond lovingly to expressed needs, they keep trying--by stating what they want and need in different ways, to see if they can "get through" to this person who is supposed to love and cherish them. What they typically find is a temporary response--a man who will do as little as possible to "get his wife off his back," and then secretly be glad when she stops expressing needs (which he views as criticism and nagging), and allow themselves to slide back as soon as they can get away with it. To say that *most* women do NOT tell their men exactly what they want and need is misrepresenting the situation, when it comes to what the WAW research shows. I'm not saying all men are like this--by no means. But a lot of men (and women too, b/c there are "walk away husbands," ) view marriage in what is primarily a negative way--"you are stuck with me now, and I'm going to do as little as possible so I can enjoy what I like w/o having to work too hard to meet your needs." It's an immature response.
The biggest mistake the WAW makes is thinking she can continue to live w/o her needs met--because that is the decision she makes after several years of effort, and she makes that decision b/c she DOES value the commitment and the children and does not want to break up the family.
I was a WAW, and my ex could not deny that I cherished him--I supported what he wanted to do, and cheerfully so--whether it was big (like career related) or little (he wanted to join a tennis team). I never refused sex for at least the first 10 years. I treated him lovingly--and continued to do so after it became clear he was not going to meet my needs. I assumed he was simply incapable, and so I tried hard to make it without those needs met.
When I pointed out to my ex (before the divorce) that I had consistently expressed needs for several years before I gave up, his response was, "Well, how was I to know it was important? You didn't scream or cry or anything." I was stunned--you mean I have to scream at someone who is supposed to love me, and has promised to cherish me, to get his attention? Besides, I also knew darn well that if I had screamed or cried or threatened to leave, he would have done the same thing--met my needs for a while, then started back sliding. The bottom line was that his behavior had taught me that my needs were actually not very important to him. I was never interested in playing a game, like "well, if you don't meet my needs, I won't meet yours!" because that seemed even more doomed to failure, was not consistent with my vows, and would have made him resentful instead of bringing about change.
After I gave up trying to get him to meet my needs, I started finding other ways to get those needs met--friends, family, myself. He became irrelevant, basically, to my happiness. I viewed him as another child needing my care, and *that* is when I started finding it harder to have sex with him. Eventually, I reached the point where I realized I could NOT have sex with him, so I realized it was time to leave. Up to that point, leaving had never really been an option (although I considered it many times) because I was committed to my family. But you can't be married to someone you cannot bring yourself to have sex with.
I'm writing this b/c some of the men in this thread are blaming their wives for "not giving them a chance," and knowing my own history, I would say that they are really saying that their wives should give them one more chance--after many chances have already been given. From a wife's point of view, there were many chances--and until the husband realized HIS cozy little world was going to be affected, he simply didn't care enough to make anything of those chances. It's like, the ex didn't really care about me or my happiness-it was only when his own was about to be disturbed that he finally decided to make an effort. That's not love--that is pure and utter selfishness. And the wife makes the decision--no, it is finally MY turn to be selfish--because if I don't take care of myself, you sure as heck won't, because even now, all that motivates you is your selfishness, not love for me.
I cannot possibly know if my way of seeing the WAW thing applies in the situations of the men here--or the women. But I think this other point of view needs to be considered. I guess what I'm trying to say is that when a woman says she is "done," it means she has recognized that she and her husband have mutually exclusive selfish needs--and she has finally chosen to take care of herself. The relief she feels at realizing her ordeal is over is the biggest barrier to reconciliation.
You just completely expressed everything in your post that I was about to type out. Not to mention I am going through an almost exact situation that you describe. Kudos to you for your post.
My husband probably feels the same way as the original poster; that I am just a WAW. He's recently told me that he doesn't know of a single thing that I ever said was a problem. But I vividly remember telling him on different occasions what I needed.
Quick Examples of what I consider direct communication:
1) I told him directly that I like to have my hair played with; I put his hands on my head and showed him exactly what I wanted. Not five seconds after I took my hands away he removed his and walked past me. He never attempted to touch me like I showed him again.
2) I told him directly that I had an issue with a part of the marriage, that I found a very specific item to be a problem. He looked straight at me and said "I don't see that as an issue. There is no issue." and then he got up and walked away.
3) I suggested MC, but during a fight, he admitted the only reason he would go to MC was so we could talk about "my" problems. I have never been as thunderstruck by something as that day.
After seven years of a WoW addiction so bad he normally played from 6:30 pm to midnight four to five days a week and from 5:30 to 6:30 am each morning, and four years of a travel schedule that had him gone between 40-60% of the time, there is nothing left for me to lean back on. His whole tactic now in trying to keep the marriage together is to continually threaten me that should I file, he will run the entire case through the courts to bankrupt me unless I sign over full physical custody of the kids to him.
There are so many ways for people to make other people feel insignificant, that they aren't even worth your time. So yes, WAW, I fit the bill. But at some point, I realized that I had more respect for myself than to continue in a marriage where not only can you say the marriage has been neglected but I have also been personally ridiculed when I performed a service for him.
Some may call me selfish, or prideful; but I do not want to go through my life subjugating myself to a marriage just to say I stayed married. I _believe_ I have tried to fix the issue with him, I _believe_ that he does not want any change, rather he just wants the old 'me' back, and even more importantly : I _believe_ that should I not take a stand for myself, I am going to end up a mentally and spiritually broken individual.
It tears me up that this is going to hurt my kids, but I cannot continue to live like I have. I'm scared, I'm so very deeply hurt that I meant so little to someone I would have done anything for, and I very well may end up losing my kids or my retirement should he really try and drag everything out into the courtroom. But some things in life are worth the fight; sometimes the easy way out is the coward's way out.
This thread is very insightful for those of us on either side of the WAW syndrome. Makes me thing of what I did wrong with my WAW. I think I was generally "there" for her, the "complaints" I got where the the amount of house cleaning she did... but I did more of laundry, all yard work, and had business to run on weekends. Then the bedtime and nighttime routine with the kids, which I should have picked up more on. "Correcting" this did not make a difference while we are staying together.
My husband probably feels the same way as the original poster; that I am just a WAW. He's recently told me that he doesn't know of a single thing that I ever said was a problem. But I vividly remember telling him on different occasions what I needed.
Quick Examples of what I consider direct communication:
1) I told him directly that I like to have my hair played with; I put his hands on my head and showed him exactly what I wanted. Not five seconds after I took my hands away he removed his and walked past me. He never attempted to touch me like I showed him again.
2) I told him directly that I had an issue with a part of the marriage, that I found a very specific item to be a problem. He looked straight at me and said "I don't see that as an issue. There is no issue." and then he got up and walked away.
3) I suggested MC, but during a fight, he admitted the only reason he would go to MC was so we could talk about "my" problems. I have never been as thunderstruck by something as that day.
After seven years of a WoW addiction so bad he normally played from 6:30 pm to midnight four to five days a week and from 5:30 to 6:30 am each morning, and four years of a travel schedule that had him gone between 40-60% of the time, there is nothing left for me to lean back on. His whole tactic now in trying to keep the marriage together is to continually threaten me that should I file, he will run the entire case through the courts to bankrupt me unless I sign over full physical custody of the kids to him.
There are so many ways for people to make other people feel insignificant, that they aren't even worth your time. So yes, WAW, I fit the bill. But at some point, I realized that I had more respect for myself than to continue in a marriage where not only can you say the marriage has been neglected but I have also been personally ridiculed when I performed a service for him.
Some may call me selfish, or prideful; but I do not want to go through my life subjugating myself to a marriage just to say I stayed married. I _believe_ I have tried to fix the issue with him, I _believe_ that he does not want any change, rather he just wants the old 'me' back, and even more importantly : I _believe_ that should I not take a stand for myself, I am going to end up a mentally and spiritually broken individual.
It tears me up that this is going to hurt my kids, but I cannot continue to live like I have. I'm scared, I'm so very deeply hurt that I meant so little to someone I would have done anything for, and I very well may end up losing my kids or my retirement should he really try and drag everything out into the courtroom. But some things in life are worth the fight; sometimes the easy way out is the coward's way out.
*in tears*
-A WAW
I'm so sorry for your situation. I can't imagine how hard it is for you to make these life-changing decisions and then question them again and again and again. And then make them, unkowning what the future holds.
What about me? I'm ready to crawl across glass, reaching out for something/someone I recognized. For her first. Then, for our children.
Only to be met with, I love you. Let's be friends.
I'm so sorry for your situation. I can't imagine how hard it is for you to make these life-changing decisions and then question them again and again and again. And then make them, unkowning what the future holds.
What about me? I'm ready to crawl across glass, reaching out for something/someone I recognized. For her first. Then, for our children.
Only to be met with, I love you. Let's be friends.
It's hard being on ether side, unless one party truly doesn't care.
The way I always think of a relationship is that it takes to to tango. If the other party is no longer interested in dancing, no matter how great you danced together you need to make a choice: either you look for a new partner or you spend the rest of your life trapped in your memories of the past.
Based on my own experience and your use of the past tense in "reaching out for someone you recognized," means to me that you haven't yet been able to move past longing for the 'old' her to see the 'new' her she's becoming. Is it truly to late, I can't answer that. I can tell you that in needing someone to "be on my side" though, I started seeing a therapist. If you really are at your wits end, a therapist may be able to provide you with some perspective.
I've also found that finally allowing anger after the 5th threat in regards to the kids has allowed me to galvanized myself to the fact that I am making the right choice. Anger directed appropriately is a very empowering emotion. I am really digging Adele's "Set fire to the rain" at the moment. For me it's a dialog on how to let go. If you are truly at the end, you can use anger to burn it out of you.
I suspect at a later date I will be able to look back at the marriage and relive the good, but right now I just want to make it through today; and I will use every device in my toolbox to do just that. I think that the 180 that people talk about is one of those tools, in case you haven't looked into it already.
This thread is very insightful for those of us on either side of the WAW syndrome. Makes me thing of what I did wrong with my WAW. I think I was generally "there" for her, the "complaints" I got where the the amount of house cleaning she did... but I did more of laundry, all yard work, and had business to run on weekends. Then the bedtime and nighttime routine with the kids, which I should have picked up more on. "Correcting" this did not make a difference while we are staying together.
This sounds exactly what like I felt (for a little while anyway). She was telling me over and over (in different ways, which I did hear) that she was unhappy and wasn't getting her needs met... the problem is she either never said or I never heard her say what exactly she needed... after enough of this we tried MC and it became about being more assertive and attentive with our child, planning date nights more, supporting her business more... these requests made me feel very defensive because I felt like many of these were the things I was already doing and not just doing well they were my entire list of strengths - so there she was saying my best wasn't good enough. So I worked through MC to be open minded, accepting of her requests and actually found more effort to put into these things. Of course I was already doing my 100% - which I was already burned out from, but I just didn't have much else to give so it required sacrifice, I juggled the priorities planned a date here and there, continued to do more of the parenting (while she went out with her yound single friends more and more) trying to focus on the squeaky wheel... and in true fashion it didn't work, only made her frustrated that she couldn't come up with any other excuses why she wasn't attracted to me.
The problem I have discovered since, what her main neglected need was, the unsqueaky wheel, was following a strong decisive man who just went after something, especially her, to bed her, throw her down and get his pleasure from her - she wanted the approval of a bold confident husband. I wasn't bold or confident and nor was I showing her my approval... quite the opposite I was trying for so long to feel like I was earning her approval. I sure wish my MC had known what I've learned on TAM and about relationships since last May.
This sounds exactly what like I felt (for a little while anyway). She was telling me over and over (in different ways, which I did hear) that she was unhappy and wasn't getting her needs met... the problem is she either never said or I never heard her say what exactly she needed... after enough of this we tried MC and it became about being more assertive and attentive with our child, planning date nights more, supporting her business more... these requests made me feel very defensive because I felt like many of these were the things I was already doing and not just doing well they were my entire list of strengths - so there she was saying my best wasn't good enough. So I worked through MC to be open minded, accepting of her requests and actually found more effort to put into these things. Of course I was already doing my 100% - which I was already burned out from, but I just didn't have much else to give so it required sacrifice, I juggled the priorities planned a date here and there, continued to do more of the parenting (while she went out with her yound single friends more and more) trying to focus on the squeaky wheel... and in true fashion it didn't work, only made her frustrated that she couldn't come up with any other excuses why she wasn't attracted to me.
The problem I have discovered since, what her main neglected need was, the unsqueaky wheel, was following a strong decisive man who just went after something, especially her, to bed her, throw her down and get his pleasure from her - she wanted the approval of a bold confident husband. I wasn't bold or confident and nor was I showing her my approval... quite the opposite I was trying for so long to feel like I was earning her approval. I sure wish my MC had known what I've learned on TAM and about relationships since last May.
That could be similar to my M. I just don't know yet. My W said she was burdened with taking care of me, although I never requested it; it became a dynamic in our relationship.
My personality avoids turmoil, so I would do whatever I could to avoid stirring the waters. I would shoulder the emotions as long as we got along.
Maybe my W now wants an independent, strong man that she has to go out of her way to please, while taking a chance that he will return love.
I don't know. Right now, we're both without an OP, and have not dated nor communicated to anyone outside our M, and both have stated the possibility of us both remaining single the rest of our lives.
It's hard being on ether side, unless one party truly doesn't care.
The way I always think of a relationship is that it takes to to tango. If the other party is no longer interested in dancing, no matter how great you danced together you need to make a choice: either you look for a new partner or you spend the rest of your life trapped in your memories of the past.
Based on my own experience and your use of the past tense in "reaching out for someone you recognized," means to me that you haven't yet been able to move past longing for the 'old' her to see the 'new' her she's becoming. Is it truly to late, I can't answer that. I can tell you that in needing someone to "be on my side" though, I started seeing a therapist. If you really are at your wits end, a therapist may be able to provide you with some perspective.
I've also found that finally allowing anger after the 5th threat in regards to the kids has allowed me to galvanized myself to the fact that I am making the right choice. Anger directed appropriately is a very empowering emotion. I am really digging Adele's "Set fire to the rain" at the moment. For me it's a dialog on how to let go. If you are truly at the end, you can use anger to burn it out of you.
I suspect at a later date I will be able to look back at the marriage and relive the good, but right now I just want to make it through today; and I will use every device in my toolbox to do just that. I think that the 180 that people talk about is one of those tools, in case you haven't looked into it already.
Just out of curiosity, how does one look for a new partner? I am not there yet. I have children and am very active in their lives.
Looking........seems desparate.
I have heard that anger can be used productively to detach and/or focus on other aspects of life.
I'm mad because my W had me actively in the M while she pulled away/detached. Now, when I'm advised to do the same, I can't rely on her (my best friend) the way she did me.
And, since I isolated myself to our family, I am without a close friend support group. It's just me, alone. Yes, I have to make friends. It's very difficult to do at this stage, when all of this is weighing on my mind.
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Re: Wife says she is done 
