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Knowing when it's over - not easy

3K views 21 replies 7 participants last post by  random.rodder 
#1 · (Edited)
Hello everyone, (long post - sorry...)

Dunno really where to begin, so I'll just start from the beginning.

My wife and I met on a blind date - I was 18 she was 16 - we were born 2 years, 360 days apart. Both of us are Scorpios. Due to the news we were expecting a child, we ended up getting married while she was still in high school - yes, very young. She finished school, though and gave birth to our first daughter in June of '89.

Twenty months later she had our second daughter - the same day I got out of USN boot camp. We were a Navy family for five years. I first noticed something odd in her behavior in April of '93. I was going in for surgery to have my spleen removed due to an illness I contracted. The morning she took me to the hospital, before she left, she handed me a note. Once I read it I was stunned - it was hate filled and completely hit me out of the blue. One of the nurses saw the expression on my face and asked if I was okay. I couldn't say anything - just handed her the note, and she was flabbergasted by it.

Once I got home from the hospital, she acted as if nothing ever happened, saying she was just scared and venting. Like every other couple, we had arguments about kids, money, life, etc...

One constant fight we almost always had was about cleaning up around the house. I would help if asked, but, it never really occurred to me to initiate cleaning up around the house. I've never demanded a clean house, a meal on the table, etc... from her. For most of our marriage, she was a stay at home mom - which was by her choice. I encouraged her to get a job at the BX on numerous occasions, just to get out of the house.

I ended up getting out of the Navy on disability in 1995, went back to my old job and we bought our first house. She got a job working nights at Wendy's. She would sometimes cook dinner before she left for work. After dinner was done, I had the kids clean up and got them ready for bed.

And this is where the dumb, young guy came out in me - I didn't really check the clean up job they did. My wife usually had to do some clean up when she got home - which I only found out recently when it was thrown up in my face during an 'I'm not happy' talk we had back in February.

In 1998, my wife opened up a pizza place with her brother, who left it six months later. I took out a loan to actually buy the building and business.

The business was 45 minutes from the house. The kids were still young, and asked to see their mom every night since the only time she got to see them was right before school, so I started taking them down there so they could visit with her during the slow periods. Since I was down there, I usually ended up helping where I could.

There were occasional moments throughout our marriage where she would just explode without reason. Almost always caught me and the kids by surprise as it was never predictable.

But we still had family time, and we still fun. We also still had the occasional fights about the house. By this time though, I had started to clean things without being asked. The problem? It was never good enough or I didn't do it the way she would've done it - end results didn't matter. And it was the same with the kids as well. After a while I just reverted back to helping her when asked, since doing things on my own volition never seemed to work...

In 1999, she gave birth to our third daughter. We also found out she was diabetic, and learned her fluctuating blood sugar could've caused the mood swings.

After 9/11, her business dropped way down and I lost my job - three times in a year - due to the economic down turn. She had to close the business in 2002 and we had to file for bankruptcy. At the time, we lived in Ohio, and the entire state was hit hard by the downturn. This is when I feel I made the biggest mistake of my life: I force a move to Florida in 2003.

It was logical, the economy was still thriving, we had enough money to make the move and live off of until we found jobs. The thing was, she didn't want to move. I told her I was going with or without her - something I should never have done... The kids didn't like it at first. While it worked out in the long run (even the kids agree), handling it the way I did was the wrong way to go about it. But, we eventually got back to being a family.

There were times when my wife would go out with our oldest daughter and some of her friends (all teens still), while I stayed at home with the other two. She was the cool mom.

The main problems during this time were: animals. She brought home a dog, that was supposed to belong to my daughter's boyfriend. Without mentioning a word to me. Fine, I let that go.

In 2007, we bought a house again. During this time, she allowed my daughter's boyfriend to move in... Something I was NOT happy about, but, was told too bad since the boy had an abusive home life - so she was told. Also, our animal collection ballooned from three dogs to seven dogs, two birds and a ferret. Only the birds were discussed.

During this time, the kids stopped helping around the house unless I I got involved or their mom blew a cork - yes, we lost control of our house. Further, the pet dander drove my allergies into over-drive, to the point where my sinuses were bleeding. This is where I reverted to an old habit - residing in my bedroom. In the evenings when the kids went to bed, I'd either go watch TV or mess with my computers, away from the things that aggravated me - pets, daughter's boyfriend, etc... I hid from the things I had no control over.

It got to the point where it was over bearing and I asked my doctor to put me on an antidepressant to help me cope. While that helped in certain ways, it made things worse. She would start cleaning something in another room; if nobody got up to help, she would come into the room and blow a chip at me about it, then I would go help. I would also say something to the kids about not helping their mom.

This was a vicious cycle until February of 2009. The morning after the Super Bowl, I was rear ended while sitting at a traffic light. I was left with permanent neck and back injuries, and fought traumatic brain injury. From 2009 until late 2011, I went thru numerous physical therapy and chiropractic sessions, and even started acupuncture. I also became addicted to pain killers and muscle relaxers. I was also on a fairly strong antidepressant, due partly to the TBI.

After the car accident, I changed. During the first 6 - 8 months after the accident, my wife really wouldn't let me do anything physical. Hell, even throughout 2010 when she opened a small cafe, she wouldn't let me help with the remodeling. In mid 2011, she got rid of her business partner and took over sole ownership of her cafe. Now, she's never really been a morning person. Her cafe was supposed to open at 6:30am.

Seeing as how she could never get there on time, I decided I would go in and open for her, and she could come in between 7 and 7:15 so I could go to work. This is when I began to see how far gone I was, and started making changes. I was 287 pounds, and could barely sweep the floor without getting dripping wet. I also noticed she was unhappy - that's wrong. I noticed quite a while earlier she was unhappy, but, could never get her to talk about it, so I figured it was my imagination.

Between June and November I had lost 40 pounds. I also tested the waters for a new job - in Texas. One that I would never have taken if she didn't want to move - learned that lesson already. Never even got to an interview stage. My wife used that as an excuse to go completely off the deep end.

During Thanksgiving weekend, we had the mother of all fights where she finally told me she wasn't happy and hadn't been for a long time. She also told me a friend of hers - a retired fire fighter - brought her a business proposal to open up a new, larger restaurant. Which was really news to me. Then I flashed back to a point in October when money was tight, she told me he brought her $500 to help get her thru the month, and alarms went off.

During this time, our oldest daughter was working for my wife, and she was very vocal about not approving of how my wife and her new business partner acted around each other - much more touchy-feely than two married but not to each other people should. Because of her 'lack of loyalty' so to speak, the wife gave our daughter the cold shoulder for almost a month. And I've heard a number of comments about their behavior from customers as well.

Add into that, since November she's had her cell phone locked and also been very secretive about who she talks to and who she sends messages to.

During January, my grandmother passed away. Our two youngest daughters and I were going to Ohio for the funeral. The wife refused to have dinner with our two daughters the night before we left, saying she didn't have the time. Yet the night before, she spent two hours with her business partner having dinner.

In Feb, we did talk for a few minutes. I got to hear how she's been unhappy for 24 years, the complete laundry list of my failures, I've been a poor father and how she's not sure if she wants to work to save the marriage. I realize I've made mistakes, but, even our kids do not understand what their mother is doing or where she is coming from.

At this point, due to the lack of honesty, I'm not sure I could even reconcile with her if she chose to. The trust issue has been broken down completely - I don't trust her. Recent text messages of hers I have seen point to an affair. She's told me she has no sex drive, but, messages to her friends are just the opposite. The last time we had sex was Thanksgiving morning, right before the big fight that evening. If she was so unhappy, etc.. what was that about - she initiated it...

From August to now, I have lost 70 pounds and am no longer on any meds. I did this for myself, as I realized the AD med made me not care about anything, which is not normal. That's a realization I wish my wife would come to - she's been on 10mg of Lexapro for about two years, and her doctor upped the dose to 20mg in December to help her get thru the stress of opening a new business. He asked her about dropping it back down this week - she refused.

I had started reading Mort Fertel's emails this week, and thinking about buying his program. Now I'm not sure it'd be worth the time, money or effort...
 
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#2 ·
Sounds a lot like many of our stories here. In the short term, I think the two of you should start seeing a marriage councilor. I wish I'd have done that years ago ... Also someone recently recommended a book to me called Too Good to Leave, Too bad to Stay by Mira Kirshenbaum. Book is a set of 36 diagnostic questions to help you determine if you'd be happier married or divorced. I recently read this and for me it is pointing towards divorce. I'm sad about this because I do still love my wife and mother of my kids, but the relationship is damaged and we do not make each other happy any more.

I sincerely wish you the very best in whatever you decide
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#4 ·
Your story sounds little different to many here.

I have read that book also....made me realise that there is many many positives and that I would probably regret divorcing, hence my megadrive effort to save my marriage. There is also a good book by John Gray (of Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus fame). Its called something like Mars & Venus at War/in Conflict...something like that. Gives you good perspective on the different communication styles between men & women.

Sounds like you have reached a point where you are ready to make a decision once and for all. It may take time, it may not, particularly if she is not interested in a. ending the affair (even if it is just emotional, which I doubt), and b. getting marriage counselling.

All the best :)
 
#5 ·
My biggest issue is this: honesty.

She tells me we're working things out, yet I have proof she's planning to leave, and circumstantial proof she's at least in a EA and most likely a full blown PA.

Told her when this started if there was no hope to tell me and I could handle it - it'd hurt but, I'm not going to try to force someone to love me. This is where I'm having the biggest problems - just the lack of honesty.

Well, that and the way shes treating our daughters who have picked up on it and question her about it. Granted, these two children are adults, and our problems doesn't really concern them. However, my feeling is she reacts the way she does to them because they are hitting too close to the truth of the matter.

For me, right now, I'm doing a good job at playing oblivious. And while I realize she's had to make the decision for having an EA, PA or both, I really want to give her 'partner' the butt kicking of his life. He tells everyone he's my friend. Not!

And I suppose there's a chance I'm wrong about the who part of this, but, all things point to this person - even though there's never a name mentioned in her text messages to friends, nor does she mention specific acts when texting him.

What I really don't understand is this: he's 16 years older and his sixth marriage is ending. Why does she think she'll be any different? Why didn't she feel comfortable talking to me about her unhappiness? She sure as hell talked to him - he told me as much, which is when I first began to suspect the EA.
 
#6 ·
She won't tell you yet unless she knows the thing with the OM is a 100% lock.

Until then, she's gonna string you along just in case. If OM bails on her, she's still got you to fall back on.

Remove the safety net and let her do the tightrope act alone. If she falls, it's gonna be hard and ugly because you shouldn't be there to catch her in this situation. If she is cheating.
 
#7 ·
Oh yeah... looking to remove ALL safety nets. When she falls it's gonna be hard, fast and ugly - without me there to pick up the slack.

My current plan is:

A little more recon!

I've found out OM is at bike week in Pensacola and is buying her some sexy stuff.

She's told me for a while that she's too tired to have a sex drive, yet she told a friend recently her sex drive is off the scale and she doesn't know what to do with it - since 'he' isn't there.

Also found out he's a controlling SOB - his current wife has been told a number of times she'll never find anyone to treat her as good as he does, and that she cannot have any male friends, while he can have all the female friends he wants.

What I'm looking for, recon wise, is a little more concrete evidence of a PA. The EA is an absolute lock. Once I get this evidence, I plan to see an attorney and set things in motion. Was originally planning MY D-Day for Monday or Tuesday. Looking more like Thursday. Also looking to give OM's wife a copy of the evidence - she has suspected the same things since December as well...
 
#8 ·
Definitely share the info with the OM wife first. That will very likely lead to him dumping your wife to save his marriage.

Which methods are you using to gather evidence? Did you started stashing cash for possible rainy days? Removed her names from any joint account?
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#9 ·
Starting to stash money.

As for recon: watching, listening and other people's input. Also, I've installed a GPS tracker in my phone and leave it in her truck in the evenings (technically, the truck is in my name so I can track it anywhere it goes, legally). OM is out of town right now, due back tomorrow.

I also have the PIN to her iPhone - she doesn't know this. Or maybe she does. She stated in a text to OM last night that she keeps her phone on her at all times and deletes these messages as they come in - yet here I am with pics of her messages taken with my phone. She works 18 hour days right now, trying to get her restaurant on it's feet so when she sleeps, she's like a rock...
 
#10 ·
You can get the deleted texts off of iPhone.

Also place a VAR(voice activated recorder) in the car. If she calls her partner and plans it in the car you'll be able to catch it early on.

Does she go out for long lunch breaks? Check her credit card/bank statements if there is any hotel spending or anything suspicious.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#11 · (Edited)
Nope, no long breaks - except sometimes going to Sam's for supplies. Which is about 32 miles from her restaurant.

While I was at my office this morning, our 21 year old daughter (emotionally, she's about 17) called crying her head of. She had gotten into her mother's phone and saw the messages - she's suspected something for a while. I kinda chewed her out for doing that, and I suspect it's not the first time, either. Anyway, this changed my schedule...

The following was done very calmly, with no yelling:

When I arrived back at the house, I woke W up from sleep. I reminded her when she said that if I ever asked to see her phone she would let me. She asked why I wanted to see it, and I told her I've had a number of people come to me with suggestions that there was more going on than just a business partnership, and I know how secretive she is with her phone. Also said if there was nothing on there she didn't care if I saw, I didn't see a reason for discussion. She asked if we're really gonna do this, and I said yes. She still wouldn't give me the PIN to her phone, told her if that was the way it was going to be, that I wanted a divorce.

She panicked and asked how that would work since she can't support herself, she couldn't afford to be on her own right now. Told her that was her problem since she's the one who set this all in motion. She accused me of trying to control her and make her change who she is; told her she was wrong, that I was finally looking out for me and not worrying about whether I said or did anything to upset her. Told her since this all started last fall, I haven't allowed myself ONE moment of peace, I've had no fun, been completely stressed out because I didn't want to lose her. Only to be strung along with 'I don't knows'.

I told her that I've had a BIG problem with the secrecy aspect of how she carries on, how she's become emotionally withdrawn from our marriage, and that I was sick and tired of being a safety net for her - told her when she fights with OM, she starts getting closer, but when they're getting along she starts becoming more withdrawn again. I asked for the PIN again and she still wouldn't give it. So I told her what her PIN was, and started quoting several text messages - all of which she tried to blow off as being a big joke. I told her there was no humor in an EA, and that most of her text messages suggested far more than just a running joke between friends.

Things like:

"Ashli is worried about you taking advantage of me. If she only knew the truth."

"You have a penis and a face, seating for two. But I'm stingy, I want both."

From OM talking about our daughter: "She's starting to f'n piss me off. She needs to be homeless and on her own - school of hard knocks."

She said it was all in fun, a big joke and it all meant nothing. I told her it was inappropriate, disrespectful and immoral, especially since she knows OM is married as well, and his marriage is in a rough patch as well - for the very same reason.

Also told W if that SOB says one word to any of my kids, she'd need a new business partner and I would be in jail - don't mess with my kids.

She insists nothing is going on with her or any one else, sexually. Told her to step outside of her sphere of reality and try to look back at the last few months to understand where the rest of us are coming from, and she just might see what we do.

Told her if she wasn't willing to stop that behavior and and least come to the table and try to work things out, then I was going to see an attorney next week. Told her it wasn't my first choice, that I want to get the connection back we used to have. She said she didn't think it was possible, and I told her that since she emotionally checked out of the relationship a long time ago, she may well be right. She asked if I had talked to OM's wife (daughter takes care of their horses), I told her I only asked if she ever discussed her marital issues with our daughter, that she said no. That she did say something about how OM was doing the schedule for the two owners and one manager and that OM told his W that opening the restaurant on Sunday was my wife's idea and not his - which was a huge lie, since my W never wanted to work 7 days a week - she knows she can't count on OM to work his fair share.


At this point I had to leave to take our daughter to work with the horses, and W got in the shower to get cleaned up for work. I talked to OM's W for a while and told her what I did, I also sent her copies of the pictures I took of my W's text messages - which my W does not yet know about.

By the time I got back home, OM's W sent me a text asking if I came to talk to her - she said only to drop Ashli off. She forwarded a txt from him saying:

'We set them up, will explain later, gotta go ride.'

She then asked me if I knew what it meant. I told her no, but, I would find out. So I went down to the W's restaurant and asked her for a moment. I asked if she talked to OM about our conversation, she said yes. I said okay, what's this mean? And showed her the text. She said I don't know. I asked if the crap on her phone was a lame attempt at getting laugh out of someone, she said they had talked about her being concerned about someone looking in her phone.

I threw the BS flag immediately, told her that was the lamest cover story ever, and if it were actually true, why did you hesitate to give me the PIN, why didn't you come out and give it to me, let me read and then watch my reaction. I told her she KNOWS she has a daughter who is an emotional wreck from the last few months, what in the hell would you prove by setting her up? She fiercely denied she would do something like that, and I asked her again if it was a set up and she said no. She tried to deflect by saying she was tired and was having problems thinking straight, which got no sympathy from me. I told her I would let OM's W know that we don't have any idea what he's saying, and she can chalk it up to another lie by her sociopathic husband.

Later in the day, one of her regular customers saw me getting gas and said: 'Just want you to know I don't approve of the way she's made your personal lives public.' Told her I didn;t understand what she meant, she said: 'She's told anybody would would listen that you never treated her right, never bought her anything and never took care of her. Lots of people saw how hard you worked to help her at her old restaurant and know that's a lie.'

Been an interesting day...

Did take our youngest daughter to have dinner with W about 5pm. She's still there, and I'm wondering if W is planning on going some place else tonight...

So yeah, been an interesting day.
 
#13 ·
If you really believe your marriage is over, get a lawyer and move on. You talk about the honesty being gone yet you are also doing things that will destroy any trust she could ever have in you. I know you feel justified but do you really need to bring the OM's wife into this? What do I know really but sounds like the marriage fell apart on both ends. Take the high road and end things with dignity. Don't stoop to the level you think she's at. You really are at a point of no return. Sounds like the only thing to decide is who you want to be in the end. Good luck.
 
#16 ·
Really? She's the one who's having an EA and maybe even a PA. She checked out emotionally a long time ago, regardless of my efforts. She's the one with the PIN lock on her phone to keep me out of it - even though some of her employees know it.

I'm far from perfect, I've never said I didn't hold a part in what has happened in my marriage it's a two way road. The difference is I was trying to work it out, with virtually zero participation from her.

I admit, breaking into her phone could be considered a violation of trust. So can her secrecy, her flirting with other men, her telling me she's too tired to have a sex drive, yet telling her friends she's so horny she doesn't know what to do with herself.

Am I bitter? Probably. This MLC or whatever it is she's going thru has done quite a bit of damage to my family, and I do tend to take that personally.

And don't you think the OM's W deserves to know what her H has been up to? She was under the impression they were trying to work things out and save their marriage, all while her H is carrying on with my W.

Now keep your eyes and ears for a possible secret phone she might get.
Not worried about that, really. Florida is a 'no fault' divorce state. I have all I need to make my conscience clear.

Are you working on yourself between these? You need to workout and build some muscles to get your wife's attention back.
Oh yeah. I started that back during the summer when I realized how far out of shape I was. Used to weight 290 pounds. Now down to 223, and just joined a fitness club. Due to my injuries, it's been slow going, but, well worth it. No more pain killers and muscle relaxers. No more Cymbalta. No more synthetic thyroid meds. I still have some toning to do, tho, but I'm working on it.

In fact, I'm mixing a Creatine drink and going to the gym now...
 
#17 ·
Wow... what a couple of days.

Denial, denial, denial...

Was talking to her brother yesterday about a computer problem. Told him I hadn't had time to look into anything since I was dealing with domestic issues. Hes said W had told him and he apologized about the way things had happened.

She evidently told her brother a week or so ago that she was ready to move on, that she couldn't tell him what she was doing, just beginning to live for her. He took that as she was having an affair. She called him complaining about my getting into her phone and confronting her about the text messages - which he knew nothing about them. He told her that, based on their earlier talk, HE thought she was screwing around - which she adamantly denies still.

She told him and me that it was all a bunch of text joking between friends. Two friends right there at her restaurant and their drunk male friend who was out of town. Her brother didn't know the content of the text messages and asked why I was so upset, so I told him about two of them - which he agreed that he didn't see them as appropriate of being sent from a married woman to another married man and vice versa.

Told him that he was her brother, I didn't want him to take sides in this. We both have a hand in our marriage getting to the place it is, but, the signs had been there for a while. Topping it all of, OM's wife hadn't heard from him much for several days, while W and OM talked a LOT, and very little of it was business related.

Last night we (W and I) had several heated discussions, including why daughter was getting into her phone - she knew it was wrong but she did so anyway. Our daughter suffered a head injury in a car accident back in July. Having gone thru a similar issue back in 2009, I know some of what she's going thru. She shouldn't have done it, but, sometimes it's difficult to stop impulsive behavior. Hell, I ate food off of other peoples trays at McDonald's once...

I am working on getting her into counselling since she obviously needs it.

Anyway, she started in on me about all the drama and asked why it was so hard to believe it was all a bunch of joking. I countered asking her where it was appropriate for her to be sending/receiving very sexually graphic text messages to another man; especially while not being willing to try to work on our marriage. Told her if it was over to just be honest and we'll start planning a divorce. She said fine, lets do that - almost in a challenging way, as if she thinks I'm bluffing.

W is miffed that I got into her phone, says I violated her trust. Told her I know, but, some of the actions I've seen lately kinda made it necessary. Also told her had she given me the PIN to her phone, the whole situation could've been defused pretty quick - except for the fact that the messages being carried on were unacceptable on any level.

We spent a lot of time on phone locks and why it was so necessary to have one other people know but she wouldn't even let me see the phone. She said she thought I trusted her. Told her I did, for a while. Then she started pulling back from me, unless she and OM were fighting. Then she stopped all discussion of 'us' while I was hearing people close to her saying she was running me down in public. If there was nothing for me to be concerned about, why the locked phone?

Finally she said she thought we grew too far apart to be able to save the marriage. I told her the difference between us was, I was willing to work to see IF it could be done; she gave up a long time ago.

She's still covering stuff up, tho. Back in March, she was talking in her sleep about some guy telling her he loves her, he's ready to pursue a relationship and wanted to help her get a place of her own. When confronted with this the next morning, she stated her nephew and her had talked about getting a place of their own - something he denied later. Now she's saying it was her sister in Kentucky who had that conversation with some guy up there. I confronted OM about this in March also - he stated he DID tell her he'd help her get a place of her own, but denied the rest of the conversation.

I don't care what the issue is, all I want is the truth. The stuff she comes up with is so far out of the realm of being believable it literally makes my head spin. This whole weekend could be included as an addendum to 'Midlife Crisis for DUMMIES' for examples...
 
#21 ·
Keep in mind that some wayward spouses get the last wake up call from getting served with divorce papers. You could have her served at work in front of plenty of people.

Hopefully she realizes what she did/is still doing and you can withdraw your divorce petition when you feel she is truly remorseful.
 
#22 ·
Time will tell.

I got the 'you just want me to stop being me speech' the other day; I almost laughed. I said no, I just want to you to show me and OUR relationship MORE attention than you give other people. I then cited my request for just a few hours of one day per week to try to start to rebuild, and got an 'I'll try, I;m pretty busy' for a response.

And when I have her served, it'll be at her place of business - the restaurant she owns, most likely by deputies she knows and is friends with.

None of this makes me feel good. I haven't really slept in days, second guessing everything... But I also know I can't go on like this...
 
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