Seeking Sanity, you are right about the Alpha thing not being the answer. I watched the link on U-tube, and it was like I was listening to myself when he talked about "pain, beatings, and damage not killing you", and "giving some back to the world".
Human beings are far too complicated to have a simple dichotomy like alpha or beta describe us. Obviously, if you are going to take a spectrum approach, being an outlier is going to be problematic for your spouse. The trick, like with just about everything else in life is to strike a balance. The problem with being too alpha in my opinion is that you come off as "cold" to women. That may not mean that they won't want to take their panties off for you, but over time they will want a deep emotional connection that you won't be able to provide.
I can see the switch turn off in my wife's mind every time I give her a "Patonesque" speech. These "speeches" work great for my kids, my employees, and I will give a particularly stirring one tonight at our Christmas party, but try the "Dead Oak" thing with your wife Atholk and get back to me on it. I will await your PM with eager anticipation.
Yes, she likes decisiveness. Yes, she likes strength. Yes, she likes to be "taken", but she also wants vulnerability, sympathy, and compassion. I don't show that. It's balance people. It's always has, and always will be. LIL
Last edited by lastinline; 12-06-2009 at 05:30 AM.
Um the focus of the thread is pointing at me a little I think, so a few comments.
It's very hard to get my entire approach to marriage in this format down, and to be honest it's mostly working best in making average/good relationships better, rather than salvaging bad ones. Once people have cheated or otherwise checked out of reality it's really hard to bring that back to what it was.
Loosely summarized - women respond to men exhibiting positive versions of two primary male traits called Alpha Male and Beta Male.
Alpha Male is devoted to physicality, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, healthy genes, raw sexual energy, power and at times even violence. The positive version is thats of an inspiring protector and the not so positive is simply a thug. This is the male aspect that just gets panties wet and triggers attraction. Thugs still get panties wet, they are just scary to be a relationship with.
The Beta Male is devoted to personality traits that ultimately are good for rasing children. Work ethic, building the nest, kindess, parenting skills, listening, holding a job, controlling anger and sexual energy, art, language and creativity. The positive version is the family man that provides and supports, the negative version is the mangina that gives away all relationship power to the woman. Good Betas build relationship comfort. When the woman is given too much comfort and not enough attraction, she becomes bored with her partner. Often the begining of the end. (Queue up the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech.)
The man needs to develop and show both Alpha and Beta traits over a long term relationship and show them appropriately. Most men typically do better with one or the other of these traits, and in times of pressure (like a break up) just act more and more from their position of natural strength. Natural Alpha's get bigger and louder and become scarier and even less reliable. Natural Beta's do more stuff for the woman and bore her to death with their neediness even faster. So more often than not, their natural reaction to relationship stress just intensifies the relationship problem.
So if you're too Beta the solution is to add Alpha. If you're too Alpha, the solution is to add Beta.
It is exceptionally important to balance both positive traits in a long term relationship. Women have a monthly sexual cycle with changing hormones that affects what they are more attracted to throughout the month. For about three weeks of the month women respond more positively to Beta Male behavior. But when she is ovulating Alpha Male behavior is highly attractive. Importantly - while ovulation is only a small part of the month, this is when she will make her most critical sexual decisions and is at her horniest. Husbands that fail to display Alpha traits specially during ovulation run a higher risk for being either abandoned, cheated on, or rasing children they think are theirs but aren't.
In terms of myself, I more naturally fall along lines of Beta behavior. My marriage has always been decent, but I've seen many improvements by learning to up the Alpha stuff.
Also a common misconception is that Alpha behavior involves some sort of aggression towards the wife (yelling, hitting, property destruction, issuing demands, bossing her about etc) These things do work to change her behavior, but only in the very short term as they undercut the positive Beta traits and ultimately destory the relationship. Ultimately the best Alpha display is that you're just going to make your way into the world with confidence and just succed at whatever it is that you're going to do. Opinions of the rest of the world be damned, you're your own man. And like a huge truck on the interstate, you just create a huge hole in the air that makes following you easy.
__________________
I do a lot of commenting here and love helping, but much of my best work and most coherent overview of how married men can have the best sex and relationship with their wife is done on my blog at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
But I'm not convinced that by the time a man's wife has checked out of the relationship, that going Alpha is going to somehow create attraction. It's good for the guy to put his needs first, because it saves a bunch humiliating, p*ssy behavior and he leaves the relationship with a measure of dignity, but honestly in 2+ year of reading boards like this, and dealing with my own cheating ex, failed reconciliation, etc, I've rarely seen a woman come back to a relationship. Sure, some come back in body, but they usually still act terrible, and the guy suffers. By the time a woman checks out, it's usually too late. And you're f*cked.
It does take some time to learn good Alpha behavior and confidence if you're a strong Beta by natural inclination. It can take many years to change yourself, and frankly you're dealing with a woman that is used to just rolling over the top of you. Plus half of being Alpha is just plain old confidence, and having the love of your life leave/cheat etc is hardly a confidence booster.
Still, I'm the type of guy that yells "man overboard" and tosses a floation device in the water. Gotta at least try something right? You never know, he might pull it off. Or at least get a better perspective and do vastly better in the next relationship. Or not just automatically turn belly up for a divorce settlement in her favor.
__________________
I do a lot of commenting here and love helping, but much of my best work and most coherent overview of how married men can have the best sex and relationship with their wife is done on my blog at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
Atholk - For the record, I AGREE with you and I think you're approach is bang on. It's along the lines of what I see as a new men's movement - trying to find balance after the fall out of feminism, political correctness, and bloody confusing nature of being a man these days. Tough, but not too tough. Sensitive but not too sensitive.
My point was that, on this thread and many others, the marriage is already at crisis point and the woman has checked out. At that point, going alpha, or doing a 180, or whatever "technique" to back off and find yourself is more about self-preservation than winning her back. I've come to believe that when women check out 9 times of 10 the relationship is done and NOTHING you do will save it.
I'm wired to be Beta, except I have an extremely strong need for independence in work and thought. Certainly in my marriage I became weak, placating and didn't take control. That happened after years of being rejected and having the kids come first. (Four kids over 8 years). So, I got to the point that my assertiveness would be met with sexual resistance, and it kind of beat me down.
For any guys interested: "No more mr nice guy" is a great book on this; the david deida stuff is interesting, and I like the perspective of Dr. Love (you can find him on askmen.com)
Thanks for all the advice - I'm not sure if she's just totally checked out of the relationship at this point or not as you guys have said much of that has to be figured out in her mind. My worry is continuing to keep myself in good mental health and start to show more of an alpha behavior at home (once again I do it at work within my management style all of the time). Much of my time and thinking is done during my marathon and triathlon training which I have been doing for several years (answers that in shape question there). I don't know or even believe that more of that behavior at home will bring her back but once again make sure that I am right going on in the future.
As far as the kids and working to get more time with them if this is over - I don't see that as beta behavior but more alpha. If indeed this is over spending time with my kids is one of my favorite and rewarding things and if she doesn't want the "hectic" lifestyle she doesn't deserve that time or the ability to take it away from me. You may disagree with that stance but it is one I truly believe in. Also in my stating that to her she knows I am serious and if she is ready to leave so be it but it is without all of the things that she knows today.
Thanks again for all the advice and the more the merrier because learning comes from all angles. Oh by the way as an update on how we are doing - she is here and "trying" but still vacant. The kids truly make that "final" decision a tough one but without feeling it gets easier.
Finally got my wife to go to therapy - I know that it should be a good thing but in 1 session she came home stating that the therapist is already recommending a 3 month separation with 1 together family night, 1 date night and the rest split time with our children. Maybe I'm off base but how does a therapist make that determination in 1 session with 1 partner in a marriage? Really have a tough time even thinking about it - not so much for me or my wife but the devastation to my children Tough thoughts thanks for reading.
JSNG.. I can tell you from personal experience I understand what you are going through. My wife has told me the same thing. She told me she is so stressed from everything that she feels like walking away from everything. She loves her kids. She has told me not to leave her that she needs me. It has NOTHING to do with another man and sex. It's the farthest thing from their minds. It's about them being able to handle it. This is the best time of year and she told me tonight she doesn't care.. That if I want Christmas then I have to do it.
There is a real problem and she probably needs meds. My wife admitted to needing them. It's something in their head that they can't handle too much stress.. It is being overwhelmed. My wife is the baby of 4. Everybody took care of her when she was younger and Married I took care of her. Now as an adult with 2 kids she probably never learned to handle all the pressures and stress with life. It has to feel horrible not knowing what to do.. I hope she gets help.. She needs it..
Much of my time and thinking is done during my marathon and triathlon training which I have been doing for several years (answers that in shape question there
If this is true, and she has 3 young kids close in age--then 50/50 WILL be a reduction in her load. OM or no OM, she will feel sad to be without her kids half the time, but she will get something of herself back. My guess is that you, OP, have not done anywhere near 50% of the child care/house work/family related planning/execution of tasks. I know there are exceptions, but even when men are "helping," 90% of the planning, thinking, preparing ahead of time, etc., etc., etc., is done by the wife. Most men won't know much about their kids clothing sizes or vaccination records or dental experiences, whereas a mom (including those who work full-time outside the home) will always know this stuff and soooooooo much more. If I'm wrong, tell me. But I've never met a man who knew 1/2 as much as his wife about family-related realities/needs/wants.
It is so easy to dismiss a woman if you have never lived in her shoes. You cannot--society does not place a demand on you to be everything to everyone, especially your kids. Mom is usually on call almost 24/7, while dad is on call only if mom isn't physically in the home. How many of you have kids that will--and always have--called for you and you alone when they need something? Or is it, "mom, mom, mom. . ."
One of you wrote that the suburban mom's lifestyle is the goal of the modern world (something like that) Are you crazy? Do you have any real idea how draining and BORING it can be? And yet there is all this love for our kids, which means we just can't say no to them. Yet we want to have our own lives and identities too. Many of us love working, love our jobs. IF when we got home (or when dad got home, if mom is a stay-at-home-mom), the family routine was truly 50/50--we could take baths without 6 interruptions, or read for an hour without being asked a question by a child or a spouse; if we could feel free from responsibility fully half the time two adults are in the home--maybe then, it would feel differently. Maybe then we would see our spouse as a true partner, not an additional person we are expected to take care of ('cause that's often how a husband acts, frankly).
I will be the first to admit that there are obviously going to be exceptions to what I describe, even though I don't personally know any. Play a party game next time you go out: ask couples about their kids' shoe sizes and most recent checkup or vaccination. See who answers. Ask "so who do your kids call for if they need something in the evening?" "Who do they want if they are sick?" "Who gets followed into the bathroom by the younger kids?"
Now imagine you are the person who does/is all these things. Imagine you are always on call; you are doing laundry and reading stories and picking up toys and . . . while your partner is watching tv, or reading something, or playing on the computer. Your partner does bath and/or bedtime--you get to sit for an hour or so, except there are other things that need tending, phone calls that need to be made so that Jr. gets to soccer while you take Sissy to Brownies tomorrow. Your hour slips by. . . one of the kids needs water, or needs to use the toilet. Your partner is back to her computer game. . . so you do it. In the waning evening hour, you fold and put away some laundry, pick up the clothes left lying on the bathroom floor, drink some tea and flip through a magazine. Then it's bedtime. Your partner wants sex; you like sex. So another 1/2 hour to an hour passes before you go to sleep. Then you are awakened by a little voice; your partner is out cold. So you get up . . . Repeat this over and over and over again, adding some nights with more than one disruption to sleep. Repeat daily and nightly for 7 years and 3 infants. Add a partner who does a lot less--and even adds to your workload by leaving clothes around, or leaving chores she's agreed to do, undone. . .
Now ask yourself, do you--and have you always--really shared 50% of the family load in the post-work hours--meaning, from the time your job ends (not from the time you get home from your workout after work)? You might work a 10 hour day--so does she, either at home or her own job. Then you come home to relax and unwind. Does she?
Thanks for the words LH - I have been told that this is not a rare phenomonon but very difficult to handle. Hoping to encourage more therapy for her in the hopes that she'll figure out what is going on in her head.
Sis - I will agree with some portions of your writing - I cannot recite vaccinations or last checkups but with my wife working 3 days a week it works out to have her handle that on the non working days. Also with her working 3 days I cannot say that I handle 50% of the housework, but when I do get home I am on the "home" clock until well after the kids go to bed - we both are busy that long and try hard to share the load. Just as I cannot tell you about vaccinations - my wife could not tell you how to run the lawnmower or snowblower or where exactly all of the outside toys get stored during the summer. As far as my workouts - most are done early in the morning before anyone is up and some extras during my lunch break at work - I try to not disturb my homelife with those workouts, in addition my wife works out 5 -6 days a week for triathlons and we try to help each other get the time needed to continue that.
I understand that a wife is very busy especially with 3 small children at home - my problem is why not learn to cope with it by doing therapy or asking for more or different assistance?
Seeking Sanity, you are right about the Alpha thing not being the answer. I watched the link on U-tube, and it was like I was listening to myself when he talked about "pain, beatings, and damage not killing you", and "giving some back to the world".
Human beings are far too complicated to have a simple dichotomy like alpha or beta describe us. Obviously, if you are going to take a spectrum approach, being an outlier is going to be problematic for your spouse. The trick, like with just about everything else in life is to strike a balance. The problem with being too alpha in my opinion is that you come off as "cold" to women. That may not mean that they won't want to take their panties off for you, but over time they will want a deep emotional connection that you won't be able to provide.
I can see the switch turn off in my wife's mind every time I give her a "Patonesque" speech. These "speeches" work great for my kids, my employees, and I will give a particularly stirring one tonight at our Christmas party, but try the "Dead Oak" thing with your wife Atholk and get back to me on it. I will await your PM with eager anticipation.
Yes, she likes decisiveness. Yes, she likes strength. Yes, she likes to be "taken", but she also wants vulnerability, sympathy, and compassion. I don't show that. It's balance people. It's always has, and always will be. LIL
The point of dichotomy is balance, it really is simple when you get down to it. I think people make things far too complicated and it hurts us all.
Um the focus of the thread is pointing at me a little I think, so a few comments.
It's very hard to get my entire approach to marriage in this format down, and to be honest it's mostly working best in making average/good relationships better, rather than salvaging bad ones. Once people have cheated or otherwise checked out of reality it's really hard to bring that back to what it was.
Loosely summarized - women respond to men exhibiting positive versions of two primary male traits called Alpha Male and Beta Male.
Alpha Male is devoted to physicality, assertiveness, leadership, social dominance, healthy genes, raw sexual energy, power and at times even violence. The positive version is thats of an inspiring protector and the not so positive is simply a thug. This is the male aspect that just gets panties wet and triggers attraction. Thugs still get panties wet, they are just scary to be a relationship with.
The Beta Male is devoted to personality traits that ultimately are good for rasing children. Work ethic, building the nest, kindess, parenting skills, listening, holding a job, controlling anger and sexual energy, art, language and creativity. The positive version is the family man that provides and supports, the negative version is the mangina that gives away all relationship power to the woman. Good Betas build relationship comfort. When the woman is given too much comfort and not enough attraction, she becomes bored with her partner. Often the begining of the end. (Queue up the "I love you, but I'm not in love with you" speech.)
The man needs to develop and show both Alpha and Beta traits over a long term relationship and show them appropriately. Most men typically do better with one or the other of these traits, and in times of pressure (like a break up) just act more and more from their position of natural strength. Natural Alpha's get bigger and louder and become scarier and even less reliable. Natural Beta's do more stuff for the woman and bore her to death with their neediness even faster. So more often than not, their natural reaction to relationship stress just intensifies the relationship problem.
So if you're too Beta the solution is to add Alpha. If you're too Alpha, the solution is to add Beta.
It is exceptionally important to balance both positive traits in a long term relationship. Women have a monthly sexual cycle with changing hormones that affects what they are more attracted to throughout the month. For about three weeks of the month women respond more positively to Beta Male behavior. But when she is ovulating Alpha Male behavior is highly attractive. Importantly - while ovulation is only a small part of the month, this is when she will make her most critical sexual decisions and is at her horniest. Husbands that fail to display Alpha traits specially during ovulation run a higher risk for being either abandoned, cheated on, or rasing children they think are theirs but aren't.
In terms of myself, I more naturally fall along lines of Beta behavior. My marriage has always been decent, but I've seen many improvements by learning to up the Alpha stuff.
Also a common misconception is that Alpha behavior involves some sort of aggression towards the wife (yelling, hitting, property destruction, issuing demands, bossing her about etc) These things do work to change her behavior, but only in the very short term as they undercut the positive Beta traits and ultimately destory the relationship. Ultimately the best Alpha display is that you're just going to make your way into the world with confidence and just succed at whatever it is that you're going to do. Opinions of the rest of the world be damned, you're your own man. And like a huge truck on the interstate, you just create a huge hole in the air that makes following you easy.
This is a fantastic post that really belongs somewhere a little more high-profile than an internet message board. Thank you for sharing this wisdom.
I want to interject that the OP seems entrenched in a beta mindset or mechanism at a time when it seems to me, the alpha side really needs to come roaring in. My thoughts on what you said are that there is a critical point in a relationship where things are 'bad' and the whole thing is ready to fail. THAT is where the alpha male needs to come into play.
I would warn any male of allowing a relationship to fail while in a beta phase of mind. That has happened to me and I can say there is almost nothing more emasculating or harmful to future relationships than this.
Leaving a relationship while in an alpha phase is entirely different. IT IS DIFFERENT BECAUSE ENDING THE RELATIONSHIP WAS YOUR CHOICE, not something forced on you. It was your will and your will was done. This has also happened to me and I can say that it really empowered me to not only survive the 'getting over it' healing process, but to flourish. Where I was not thinking, "omg, I have to get through another day, I can't take it..." instead I was thinking, "Each day is new day full of opportunity to FIGHT for what I want out of life, thank god I am alive and strong and never gave in, never gave up...." It is a feeling of empowerment and liberation rather than one of coercion and emasculation.
Re: Divorce because of Overwhelmed? Need Help?
