OK - I will give you the short version of our story and then highlight the part that truly confuses me. My wife and i have been having some issues and about 6 months ago I was given the information that she was unhappy. I had truly never noted this before but had noticed that she became much crabbier when our third child came along (they are now 7, 5, 3). When we fight it is about little things or some lies that she has taken to telling me but nothing substantial. When confronted with the conversation about divorce last week we both cooled off and decided that we really needed to think and have a good heart to heart discussion. Well her answer to what the actual problem is "She is not cut out for the suburban mother lifestyle and while loving our children and me very much she is very unhappy." This is the part that truly confuses me because I knew the hectic life comes with multiple children (I am one of 6) but she being an only child can't handle the pressure and stress and hecticness. We are talking divorce because she needs some days free of "her current life" assuming that we would go with 50% placement. As someone that believes he can fix anything or has a great ability to see all sides of a situation I am dumbfounded by this one.... How can someone say they love you and the entire family but want to give it up??? What I really need is to understand from someone else that may have had similar feelings or help me to come up with ways to help her get through and past this. I lover her very much and the last thing I want is for our marriage to end - in addition I want to see my kids everyday not only 4 days a week or less....
I assume that 1-2 are in school during the day. Can she put the other in part time pre-school or mothers day out for additional free time?
Or...maybe return to school herself or focus on some interest?
It's VERY easy for mothers to lose themselves. I know that I did. My kids are now 15 and 21 years. I ended up attending school and getting another degree.
Another option is to get some sort of help with the house chores-maids perhaps?
Well her answer to what the actual problem is "She is not cut out for the suburban mother lifestyle and while loving our children and me very much she is very unhappy."
Meh. These are all just words from a woman who as I recall had another man floating around in the picture not so long ago. You're apparently just meant to be a sap and take up the reins on all the child care forever and let her "have her freedom". That would allow her to waltz off with the other guy free of responsiblities.
She either needs to stay with you and work it out, or take a hike and get divorced while you take her to court for child support et al.
I mean seriously... "not cut out for suburban mother lifestyle". What a total bull**** line is that. Maybe I'm confused but that very lifestyle appears to be the end goal of western civilization and technology. So many women are just worthless as wives these days. If they lose the phone dinner is ruined etc. OMG I'm ranting.
(For the record I watched my infant and toddler kids during the day and worked a full time nursing position weekend/night wrap around shift for years. I am totally allowed to say this. )
__________________
I do a lot of commenting here and love helping, but much of my best work and most coherent overview of how married men can have the best sex and relationship with their wife is done on my blog at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
Thanks CW - She currently works 4 days a week and cannot drop any days there which does add to her feelings I am sure. As far as the other things, I am a very hands on helper and have also suggested a maid or other things to assist as it would be far cheaper than a divorce but she refuses.
Thank you also Atholk - You are correct on the earlier stuff and at this point I am trying very hard to keep a positive attitude but do share your thoughts that this is a bullsh*t answer and something I don't think is possible. That is why I am looking for feedback from others and truly want this to work out so I will hold onto anything right now. But trust me I am grounded and have a complete understanding of myself, what I would have to if we were to end it and have mentally prepared myself for an end if that occurred.
All feedback is excellent as this thing needs to be thought through from every angle
Often you can tell something important about a person simply from their screen name.
If your wife is evaluating/flirting with/having EA or possible PA with other men then the issue is NOT a suburban lifestyle. At least not exactly.
My guess is that she cannot handle a totally civilized husband.
If she has been giving you wild monkey sex all along including the last year - then ignore the rest of this. If however your sex life has steadily faded - maybe even died then read on...
You need to find a way to regain or build from scratch an "edge." Because your future relationships will be much happier and more sexual if you have that. Many women simply cannot tolerate a lack of a full spectrum emotional relationship.
My wife wants to experience a little bit of lots of love and kindness - spiced up with some level of conflict - genuine raw anger and dominant male behavior. I don't think she is that rare I simply think she is more blatant about what she wants then most women.
I have no idea why she likes this - I simply know that playing rough makes her love me more and lust after me more. And playing sweet and gentle is great as long as that isn't the only thing I do.
Find a guy friend who understands how this works - including the alpha bedroom behavior like spanking and dominant talking. And have him teach you the rules of the road because it is sad to lose a marriage over a lack of pop....
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsniceguy
Thanks CW - She currently works 4 days a week and cannot drop any days there which does add to her feelings I am sure. As far as the other things, I am a very hands on helper and have also suggested a maid or other things to assist as it would be far cheaper than a divorce but she refuses.
Thank you also Atholk - You are correct on the earlier stuff and at this point I am trying very hard to keep a positive attitude but do share your thoughts that this is a bullsh*t answer and something I don't think is possible. That is why I am looking for feedback from others and truly want this to work out so I will hold onto anything right now. But trust me I am grounded and have a complete understanding of myself, what I would have to if we were to end it and have mentally prepared myself for an end if that occurred.
All feedback is excellent as this thing needs to be thought through from every angle
MEM11363 speaks the truth here. I had/have problems very similar to yours. The key to their resolution/management was simply standing up for myself and drawing a line of how much crap I would take and not back from that line. In fact, the line has moved forward inch by inch and she is now the one giving ground.
I am no sexist and far from a misogynist, but honestly, it seems many women want their way and also for you to be the alpha male. Ask them which they want and they will say their way. But their actions definitely tend to answer 'alpha male'. That doesn't mean to be a total jerk. But when the alpha male part is lacking, women (in my experience) tend to lose a feeling of security they depend on you for and so start fantasizing about independence sometimes to the point where they think they can take the male role on themselves and ditch you altogether.
But it doesn't work like that. Separate as a couple and soon enough she will be seeking the same things from another male. Better to just man up and define some very clear boundaries.
Clarification: I love my wife. I do not enjoy the full spectrum emotional relationship the same way she does. I would prefer full time love/kindness. I have simply learned that she is not nearly as happy when there is no edge.
And this is not about being a jerk. Jerks initiate hostilities or conflict. My wife does NOT - LOL - like that. She simply likes it when I show a certain amount of "we are doing this my way - because it will be fun" leadership and that I am aggressive when she or the kids or third parties behave inappropriately.
I believe this is hard wired behavior. She is overall delightful and fun and smart and mostly very rational I would simply describe her as a handful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Commited1
MEM11363 speaks the truth here. I had/have problems very similar to yours. The key to their resolution/management was simply standing up for myself and drawing a line of how much crap I would take and not back from that line. In fact, the line has moved forward inch by inch and she is now the one giving ground.
I am no sexist and far from a misogynist, but honestly, it seems many women want their way and also for you to be the alpha male. Ask them which they want and they will say their way. But their actions definitely tend to answer 'alpha male'. That doesn't mean to be a total jerk. But when the alpha male part is lacking, women (in my experience) tend to lose a feeling of security they depend on you for and so start fantasizing about independence sometimes to the point where they think they can take the male role on themselves and ditch you altogether.
But it doesn't work like that. Separate as a couple and soon enough she will be seeking the same things from another male. Better to just man up and define some very clear boundaries.
Thanks for all of the advice - In the past couple of months I have done a lot of thinking about who I am and what I want to be. In the past in order to keep family peace I have taken what I thought to be the smarter route but faced with that life possibly ending I have realized that standing my ground some more may have been the better thing. Either way at this point I have taken myself into respect and gone back to doing a lot of the things I enjoy. Being assertive in my work environment has gotten me into management so I assume some of those same techniques should be utilized at home.
Any advice on prepping the scenario to get more than 50% placement of children? If indeed she is soooo overwhelmed by our life and kids why would she deserve them 50% of the time?
Any advice on prepping the scenario to get more than 50% placement of children? If indeed she is soooo overwhelmed by our life and kids why would she deserve them 50% of the time?
The children are all a red herring. She's not actually overwhelmed with everything. It's all a BS line. The more you try and gain traction on the children's custody, the more you are playing into the concept that she is overwhelmed by everything. Like I said earlier, the line is designed to end up with you being a full time solo parent, while she gets to leave everything in your hands and free to go have sex with another man.
You need to completely reframe the conversation. "If you think life is hard now, just wait until the divorce, because frankly your responisblities to the children will NOT change, the only thing that changes will be everything splitting up and becoming more complicated to manage and handle. It's 50/50 NOW. After the divorce it's going to be 50/50 of something much harder to manage. Plus if we divorce I will NOT be friendly to you, it will be over between us, meaning I will NOT be doing anything extra for you, what I'll be doing for the "family" will be for the children and not a damn thing for you. You will be on your own, life will be harder for you, and I will no longer care."
The real issue is she's probably a bit bored, most likely by you. Hence the advice by others about adding some alpha male goodness to the mix. It sounds like you're doing a little too much on the beta front ("How do I get more of the kids?") The problem of you being too beta isn't going to be solved with cranking up the beta.
You have to balance both alpha and beta traits in a long term marriage. Too alpha and you're a bad provider, unhelpful, self-involved prick. Too beta and you're unexciting, sexless, safe and boring. Got to mix it up on them and keep them on their toes a little bit.
If you're not in good physical shape, work on improving that asap. It's always a good thing to be in shape, but in terms of it's timing around a potential break up, it's a fairly strong signal that you are prepping yourself to attract a new mate if you need to. It's a very strong empowering move to make. You don't have to date other women/cheat on her, it's just an implication that if pushed in that direction, you could more easily replace her than perhaps she could replace you. The ability to attract women in general is an alpha male trait anyway. Advantage you.
__________________
I do a lot of commenting here and love helping, but much of my best work and most coherent overview of how married men can have the best sex and relationship with their wife is done on my blog at http://www.marriedmansexlife.com/
I don't know all sides of the story, but don't give up on this. It is easier and takes less courage to slink away and be accommodating. She wants out, to bad. She made a commitment to you and you to her.
I want to post the following video because it is an excellent representation of a dialog between the alpha and beta aspects of the same male personality. There is swearing in it, so if you are offended please don't watch. But the lesson is hard medicine and part of that is dealing with 'offenses'. I read the forum guidelines and didn't see anything against posting this sort of thing.
Again, a brief conversation between alpha and beta. I actually find it to be quite inspiring and its the kind of conversation you need to have within yourself:
JS-NG,
In all my bboard wanderings I have found Atholk to have the greatest understanding of women - and what makes them happy/unhappy. So if you get confused by the wide range of suggestions you get, and you need to simplify - READ HIS POSTS AND EXECUTE. This will give you the best possible outcome in your situation. And if you stay the course on his advice - it will ensure that your next long term relationship/marriage doesn't end the way this one may.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atholk
The children are all a red herring. She's not actually overwhelmed with everything. It's all a BS line. The more you try and gain traction on the children's custody, the more you are playing into the concept that she is overwhelmed by everything. Like I said earlier, the line is designed to end up with you being a full time solo parent, while she gets to leave everything in your hands and free to go have sex with another man.
You need to completely reframe the conversation. "If you think life is hard now, just wait until the divorce, because frankly your responisblities to the children will NOT change, the only thing that changes will be everything splitting up and becoming more complicated to manage and handle. It's 50/50 NOW. After the divorce it's going to be 50/50 of something much harder to manage. Plus if we divorce I will NOT be friendly to you, it will be over between us, meaning I will NOT be doing anything extra for you, what I'll be doing for the "family" will be for the children and not a damn thing for you. You will be on your own, life will be harder for you, and I will no longer care."
The real issue is she's probably a bit bored, most likely by you. Hence the advice by others about adding some alpha male goodness to the mix. It sounds like you're doing a little too much on the beta front ("How do I get more of the kids?") The problem of you being too beta isn't going to be solved with cranking up the beta.
You have to balance both alpha and beta traits in a long term marriage. Too alpha and you're a bad provider, unhelpful, self-involved prick. Too beta and you're unexciting, sexless, safe and boring. Got to mix it up on them and keep them on their toes a little bit.
If you're not in good physical shape, work on improving that asap. It's always a good thing to be in shape, but in terms of it's timing around a potential break up, it's a fairly strong signal that you are prepping yourself to attract a new mate if you need to. It's a very strong empowering move to make. You don't have to date other women/cheat on her, it's just an implication that if pushed in that direction, you could more easily replace her than perhaps she could replace you. The ability to attract women in general is an alpha male trait anyway. Advantage you.
Atholk and MEM - You guys both have consistent advice and I think it's sound for a guy not to be too invested in his woman. It's good advice to keep a healthy marriage going. And MEM I'm jealous of the relationship you have, from what I've read you've got it figured out.
But I'm not convinced that by the time a man's wife has checked out of the relationship, that going Alpha is going to somehow create attraction. It's good for the guy to put his needs first, because it saves a bunch humiliating, p*ssy behavior and he leaves the relationship with a measure of dignity, but honestly in 2+ year of reading boards like this, and dealing with my own cheating ex, failed reconciliation, etc, I've rarely seen a woman come back to a relationship. Sure, some come back in body, but they usually still act terrible, and the guy suffers. By the time a woman checks out, it's usually too late. And you're f*cked.
I did some counseling with the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy - a great book on this subject - and he had a real piece of wisdom: Hope keeps all suffering in place, meaning deal in reality and not fantasy.
jsniceguy - women check out for lots of reasons, if she was sexually abused as a kid/young woman, it tends to emerge in their late 30's/early 40's. Some women are so driven to marriage and kids, and then when they get them, they have no more goals, and go through a "now what" phase, it's as if their life goals were completed, and they can't reconcile that marriage/kids are a PROCESS, not a destination. Woman are conditioned not to acknowledge their sexual desires, and that repression comes out in full force during an affair (the OM gets the hot sex, you get the mommy). If she's emotionally immature, or unable/unwilling to communicate her real feelings, or she's wired to be a liar, or passive agressive, then what ever sh*t she is pulling on you has more to do with her own head, then you.
I don't want you to get your hopes up that going alpha is somehow going to fix this. It probably won't. Sorry to be a bummer.
SS,
I was very very lucky to meet my wife. I really mean that about the luck part. Over the years she has kindly taught me a lot of the stuff that Atholk talks about.
I certainly don't mean to imply that being assertive/dominant and confident will bring back a wayward spouse. I absolutely believe that with certainty it will:
- Improve their ongoing treatment of you if you have to interact post divorce (which everyone who has kids does)
- Reduce the amount of emotional harm they do to you even if they do continue to misbehave AND
- Help you to initiate and sustain a new relationship in a more healthy way
Quote:
Originally Posted by seeking sanity
Atholk and MEM - You guys both have consistent advice and I think it's sound for a guy not to be too invested in his woman. It's good advice to keep a healthy marriage going. And MEM I'm jealous of the relationship you have, from what I've read you've got it figured out.
But I'm not convinced that by the time a man's wife has checked out of the relationship, that going Alpha is going to somehow create attraction. It's good for the guy to put his needs first, because it saves a bunch humiliating, p*ssy behavior and he leaves the relationship with a measure of dignity, but honestly in 2+ year of reading boards like this, and dealing with my own cheating ex, failed reconciliation, etc, I've rarely seen a woman come back to a relationship. Sure, some come back in body, but they usually still act terrible, and the guy suffers. By the time a woman checks out, it's usually too late. And you're f*cked.
I did some counseling with the author of No More Mr. Nice Guy - a great book on this subject - and he had a real piece of wisdom: Hope keeps all suffering in place, meaning deal in reality and not fantasy.
jsniceguy - women check out for lots of reasons, if she was sexually abused as a kid/young woman, it tends to emerge in their late 30's/early 40's. Some women are so driven to marriage and kids, and then when they get them, they have no more goals, and go through a "now what" phase, it's as if their life goals were completed, and they can't reconcile that marriage/kids are a PROCESS, not a destination. Woman are conditioned not to acknowledge their sexual desires, and that repression comes out in full force during an affair (the OM gets the hot sex, you get the mommy). If she's emotionally immature, or unable/unwilling to communicate her real feelings, or she's wired to be a liar, or passive agressive, then what ever sh*t she is pulling on you has more to do with her own head, then you.
I don't want you to get your hopes up that going alpha is somehow going to fix this. It probably won't. Sorry to be a bummer.
Maybe some people are just mean and selfish. Why do we want to be with someone like that? I have had to ask myself this question over and over again.
I"m sorry for what you are going through. But sometimes one person decides that they just don't want it anymore.....I know from experience that nothing you can do will fix that person. Let em go. Get as much time with your kids as you can, because if she doesn't want them, they are better off with you.
I have 3 boys. 6, 8 and 15. I am a single mother now, thanks to my stupid ex who remarried before the ink was dry on our divorce papers. He didnt' want to be a daddy or husband .....I did it all. Housework, yard work, kids ...kids school and extra curricular activities...worked, cooked, anything he needed too. And I took care of all the bills while he played playstation and complained of being tired.
My point is.....he just checked out of reality. Life is hectic. Being a parent is a thankless job that has few rewards and a lot of heartache. "I love you mommy" Are the greatest words I ever heard and that makes it beyond worth the stress and fatigue and heartache. IF your wife has checked out.....let her go. It's not easy....it hurts......I feel dead inside 90% of the time. I question what more I could have done.
There are good men and women out there. Just ask yourself....."Why do I love someone who can say they just want to walk away from it all? "
NO one loves their spouse 24\7 forever. Eventually it takes work and sacrifice to make a marriage work....it takes a desire to do so. You have that.....but it sounds like she doesn't.
I am so sorry for your suffering. I hate for anyone to go through this....and in the end, after all the advice....it's your choice. Do whatever you can stand to do. iF that is hang in there, then do it. If it is walk away and slam it to her....then do that.
Divorce because of Overwhelmed? Need Help?
)
