I love my wife still. I love my kids completely. But I'm having a hard time personally. My confidence in myself is at an all time low. Which seems odd, considering I have been a faithfull husband. Its been over three months and it is getting better - for sure. But it seems an awfully tough road.
Just make sure you protect yourself. Keep an eye on her; make her earn your trust back. Since it seems that you are financially stable - please do try counseling.
I strongly recommend getting Spector Pro (Computer and Internet Monitoring Software). I use it, it is a fantastic program. It runs completely in the background, and records everything. Not even a person who is excellent with computers can tell it is installed.
You need to go to counseling, listen to what she says in counseling, then use your monitoring evidence to see if she really is committed to making the marriage better, or if she (like my H) is just blowing smoke up your a$s.
I agree with the others. I think what you are describing is a pathological liar. She projects one image for public consumption (good mother churchlady routine) and carries on a totaly different life on facebook and the internet where in supposed anonimity she can let her true self out. The two times people will tell you what they REALLY think is when they are drunk or when they think they are anonymous on the internet.
What kind of church lady good mother has sex with two different men by cheating on her husband and in the process gives her husband and father of her children herpes? I mean she gave you an STD by screwing around man. Yet you keep making excuses for her. Pathological liars eat people for dinner. Not trying to be harsh man, but I think your best bet is to walk away. A person like her only cares about appearances. And she will only shape up enough to make you think she's being better. Changing that kind of pathology at this age is next to impossible. You see that is what the pathological liar craves is the validation, appearance, and attention. As soon as you are not looking the next guy that "complements" her, will be her next conquest.
If it where me I'd gather evidence, work out a breka up plan, spring it on her get a divorce, get a lawyer and get those kids out of there. based on what you have told us no judge in their right mind would deny you custody.
Count me in the "divorce her" category. But don't walk out: throw her out. If she threatens to call the cops or anything, tell her that right now you're not planning to air all the dirty laundry in public. But if she makes it hard for you, and this winds up in court, everybody- her parents, everybody at church, everybody she knows-is going to find out what she did and why your marriage ended. You aren't going to stay married to her, but you see no reason to humiliate her publicly. But if she makes things hard, there's no way this isn't going to come out.
As for why you have to divorce her: she will never respect you, ever, if you let her dump this much crap on you and you just sit there and take it. So she will cheat on you, again and again, for the rest of your marriage. She and her string of boyfriends will laugh together about how you're at home with the kids while they're here getting naked.
Forgive her as best you can. Don't drag all this through public sources if you can possibly avoid it; humiliating her and destroying her reputation in the eyes of her parents does not serve you at all. But don't stay with her.
OK. So from most of the feedback I understand things a little more clearly - and will do my part to be certain of her current fidelity --- buuut we do have three beautiful young children together who I can not give up on. And just the thought of telling them that their Mom and Dad might break up also is something that turns my stomach instantly.
My worries - if I stay I will become a bitter guy who nobody likes anyway -- leading to this situation again
If I go - It will seriously affect how my kids are raised, what their life is like, and my relationship with them.
Is it possible that I married a person with serious issues?? Not trustworthy, attention needy, secretly sexually driven?? Or maybe she just hates her life with me and doesn't have the guts to come out and say it?
She still insists I am the center of her world and seems to be doing everything possible to make things right. She closed her Facebook account, is eager to work at counseling, scheduled a marriage retreat for us, and has us booked for a group marriage vow renewal??
I don't want to be a chump?? But I also think the stronger man is sometimes the guy who holds his family together - acknowledging that no families are perfect, and no people are perfect. Leaving is much easier that swollowing hard on pride and walking this road. That said -- if this were to happen again, or even any hint of it -- things would be absoutly clear cut and time to move on.
What do you think - chump?? or man who swollows his pride hard and steps up to hold his family together and protect his children??
OK. So from most of the feedback I understand things a little more clearly - and will do my part to be certain of her current fidelity --- buuut we do have three beautiful young children together who I can not give up on. And just the thought of telling them that their Mom and Dad might break up also is something that turns my stomach instantly.
My worries - if I stay I will become a bitter guy who nobody likes anyway -- leading to this situation again
If I go - It will seriously affect how my kids are raised, what their life is like, and my relationship with them.
I don't want to be a chump?? But I also think the stronger man is sometimes the guy who holds his family together - acknowledging that no families are perfect, and no people are perfect. That said -- if this were to happen again, or even any hint of it -- things would be absoutly clear cut and time to move on.
What do you think - chump?? or man who swollows his pride hard and steps up to hold his family together and protect his children??
My mother cheated on my father and then ended the marriage when I was 7 years old. Looking back, I am so glad that they divorced. They were not meant for each other. Even at my young age, I remember the dissension and hostility in our home. It was so unpleasant.
My dad remarried about 5 years later and is extremely happy to this day. He remained a constant in my life and I have always adored him. He chose to move just a few blocks away from my mom so that he could still be a big part of me and my sister's lives. We remained really close, even though I only lived with him half the time.
My mother ended up cheating on her next husband as well, but is now remarried to H #3 and it seems to be going okay. For now. She is a selfish person and always will be, but I love her none the less.
I graduated high school with honors, and so did my sister. We are both in college. (My college career is taking longer because I opened my own business) Long story short: Kids do good in happy homes. I'm not advocating divorce, but don't just stay for the kids if you're unhappy and she's unhappy.
Also, I should add that my mother & father are actually friends. Weird, huh? They don't talk everyday, but they don't violently hate each other either. They never even filed a custody case. I guess my parents are a unique example, but still, I think my childhood was a lot happier than it would have been if they stayed unhappily married.
I hope you don't mind, I've been reading along and I have a lot to say, but I just can not get a post done tonight that would do it justice. I can say this--there are many things I would like to talk to you about!! I can also say that I don't think this is hopeless, I do think you're not nuts and she's not some hidden sex fiend.
But, let's go into it all tomorrow okay? I'm west coast and I don't know where you are in the USA but just bear in mind I maybe up to 3 hours behind you. See you tomorrow!
__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare
bbl,
Your first post was so lame - you were blaming HIM.
Aren't you embarrassed by how wrong you were? I would be bright red.....
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbelmont
well now that this is clarified, I would say keep with the counseling as long as possible and try to work it out, keep tabs on her receptivity to the counseling, we know you want it to work otherwise you wouldn't be here its her reaction you should worry about. If shes very responsive to the therapy then i say shes human and made a mistake forgive and forget, if shes in-responsive save yourself some heartache and get out. I hope it works out for you, however if you get the feelings of unease between you and your wife again i would bring them out into the open. your gut seems to be trustworthy and can help you weather the storm a bit.
Hi Banff~ I'm sorry it's taken so long and I'm so late but WHEW it was a day today. I've been reading along and trying to catch up, and just to be sure I want to summarize, using your own posts as much as possible, to be sure I have facts straight.
Quote:
We have been married for 12 years and together for 17. We have four kids ages 5, 7, 10, and 17. The last year has been tough because I felt something was seriously wrong in our relationship. I work a lot of hours and have a crazy schedule. My wife found Facebook...and looked up a couple old boyfriends. ... #1 was in Feb, Mar, Apr of last year. ... #2 happened in May. ...(In) July I found a couple emails (and had a big fight where she cried) and because of her reaction I laid off - trusting her. But during the rest of the summer I got worried because she was not herself. Discovered everything in October. ...My wife also had a "crazy" night when we were dating (seventeen years ago). ... (She) had a threesome 2b1g
Furthermore there are a few other pertinent facts:
Quote:
ABOUT HER: ...she underwent lap-band surgery Oct 08 and has lost some weight. She was not terribly overweight in the first place - but after four kids had a few extra pounds. This did not bother me in the least. I loved her either way.
...She is a stay at home Mom who helps out at the school and works a couple hours a day for pay as a helper.
...She says none of the affair attraction was for the sex
...She always complained that I wanted sex way more than her??
...she got new panties, changed her shaving routine, and told me it was for me ...had cyber sex with photo swapping..
...she claims none of it was for the sex - that it was all for the emotional attachment that she was not getting from me.
...On the outside she is the total church going, polite, perfect Mom.
...she swears that the sex was just extra. That it was all done for an emotional need. That what she wanted most was someone to listen to her and pay attention to her feelings
...first impressions of my wife would not put her on any list of folks who would ever cheat - she doesnt look or seem the type. (If there is a type??) She seems like a Mom who likes being a Mom.
...She still insists I am the center of her world and seems to be doing everything possible to make things right. She closed her Facebook account, is eager to work at counseling, scheduled a marriage retreat for us, and has us booked for a group marriage vow renewal??
Quote:
ABOUT YOU: ...I work a lot of hours and have a crazy schedule.
...about the same time I steped down from a higher paying, high stress job, to a lower paying, less stress job.
...I am the provider for us and earn a decent living.
...Did she see me as less of a provider because I steped down in position. (Totally my choice for less stress)
...we still have a decent sex life. But --- (she) had cyber sex with photo swapping...which she had never done with me...
...(you think) ...It is excusable for her inside if she can validate it as fulfilling an emotional need not met, but would be unacceptable that she may have just wanted someone new to tell her she was sexy and get noticed for her sexuality.
...A little more - from the outside we have a terrific life. We have a beautiful five bedroom home in a perfect location. We don't have fights about anything realy. Our kids are terrific. The teachers all rave about our kids and tell us that they smile and laugh so much and seem to love life. Folks tell us all the time that they can tell we have a home filled with love and happiness because of the way we all get along.
I have to admit that looking through the "advice" you've gotten from others I'm a little concerned--in my opinion the things you've been told haven't been very accurate or very helpful in saving your marriage. And OH YES I absolutely think your marriage is one that can be saved and probably made better from these events!
Banff, look through the things that you yourself said about yourself and your wife. She is a very decent, loving, religious lady who sounds like up until just recently she loved her children, her family, her husband and her life. It sounds like what she did would be something you'd call "entirely out of character for her" and not at all like what you know of her. Since it was so unlike her, and since the harm done by an affair is so devastating, you now find yourself second-guessing yourself and all your perceptions about her and life in general. After all...you didn't see THIS coming and what you thought you knew of her was entirely wrong...right? Isn't that kind of how you feel?
Please allow me to point you to two resources that might be really helpful for you in understanding what has happened. One resource is my website: Affaircare and the other is my Infidelity Examiner page. I point you to these two places because I have posts and articles on a lot of topics that will help explain things like how affairs start, what are love extinguishers and love kindlers, etc. There's a lot more depth there than I can go into here okay? If you can just take a peek when you have time.
But let me do my best to summarize a bit here. Think of the love in your marriage as a campfire. There are actions you can do to stoke the fire and make it hotter--those are Love Kindlers. There are actions you can do that are like putting water on a fire--some are like dribbles out of a holey bucket, and some are like dumping a big old bucket of water on the fire. Those are Love Extinguishers. When you two first met there were no Love Extinguishers because you weren't living together...and at the same time there were TONS of Love Kindlers. Think about it! People in love tend to spend a lot of time together; they talk to each other and get to know each other--and they actually stop and listen; they do fun things together like go bowling or take walks; they look good for each other and flirt.... See all those kindlers? And sure enough, the fire of love blazes and you get married. Then enter some Love Extinguishers. Maybe she's not a great money manager (or the opposite, a controlling penny-pincher); you work many hours you don't spend as much time together; when you are together, you watch TV and don't talk anymore...and the Love Extinguishers are dribbling on the fire. Then more Love Extinguishers--kids are born and there's even LESS time together; she gains some weight and you wear sweats; you yell at her about bills and she disrespects your job; you want sex and she doesn't feel connected to you so she resents it...and the Love Extinguishers are getting to be less like a drip and more like a downpour.
Enter the other man (in your wife's case, old boyfriends found on Facebook). The OM has no Love Extinguishers because they aren't living together. He is happy to hear from her. He acts like she's interesting and perks up when she says hi. He tells her that he likes being with her. He sends her a little note or lovey card on facebook. He might find her a poem and compliment her. You know what I mean right? and part of her is thrilled that someone else thinks she's neat! She's happy...and a little love zing of amphetamine hits her brain. Then she flirts a little and he flirts back! There's a connection and it really good. Meanwhile, you not knowing what's happening, continue wiht Love Extinguishers. You spend LESS time with her and the OM can't wait to be with her. You don't dress up for her or say she looks good and the OM tells her she's beautiful without even being asked. You yell about a bill or get in the same old argument and the OM never even yells at her once. So in her head...the Disloyal Dizziness begins to roll in like a fog. (Disloyal Dizziness is that way of thinking that is so bizzarre and so ... well just SILLY that it almost sounds nonsensical when it comes out of their mouth as their reasoning.) She knows she shouldn't be doing this but the thrill of the amphetamine zing is so exciting and she feels loved and beautiful, so she makes excuses. Furthermore, she starts to be more and more and more secretive (because the forbidden rendezvous is so tempting!) and she will do anything to get more and more and more of that amphetamine zing. It's like a drug. She justifies why it's okay to go one small step further. She was never happy. She never loved you. She loves you but she's not IN LOVE with you.
Does this sound familiar Banff?
It would be just the same thing if it was a man and another woman. Men also need to be told they are handsome, smart, interesting and fun to be with. Men also need to think that the one who loves them gets a little thrill when they walk in the room. Thus is it really, REALLY rare for an affair to be about sex. What happens is that for both men and women, the Love Kindlers are being met so they feel blazing hot feelings for the person that spill into wanting to do physical things to express that fire. Seriously, in my more than a decade experience with helping people in affairs, they are very, very rarely about sex. I can think of two! On the other hand, I can think of hundreds and maybe a thousand that were all about getting Love Kindlers from the other person.
Thus, when everyone here gives you the advice that you were not trusting her and pushed her away--well that doesn't make sense with what I know of Love Kindlers, Love Extinguishers and affairs. Usually the affair is like an addiction, and like any drug addict, if you threaten to take away the drug, they will do ANYTHING to keep the drug...ANY THING! Crying, swearing, promising, threatening, lying, hiding, stealing, blaming, deflecting...these are all really common tactics that a disloyal spouse will use to keep the affair-drug going. And from what I hear your wife kind of had one affair right after the other right? I will BET you any amount of money that the first one ended and the second one flared right up--why? You tell me. Was it because she wanted orgasms? :P NOPE!! She wanted to keep that thrilling feeling of being loved, the amphetamine zing, going. Maybe she ended the first one or maybe the OM, but in the end that feeling was too much for her to resist by herself and she slid right on into the second one.
So this is my advice to you. From everything you've said, she did not do this for sex, she's not a sex pervert or repressed or anything. From what you've said about yourself, I think she loves you very much and either because you found out or whatever, the affairs stopped. For infidelity to really stop, she has to go through a period of withdrawal. This is a time, like a drug addict, where she does not get her supply of that love amphetamine zing, and she MISSES it. She will want to contact the OM just to "see if he's okay" or she might be mopey and cry and be pretty sullen. Further, she wouldn't be at all sorry--or if she is, she's sorry for herself and maybe a little mad and cranky at you! (after all--you cut off her supply.) That's because the Disloyal Dizziness fog has not cleared yet and it won't clear until she is addiction-free. Once she's addiction-free, she will gradually become more and more like herself and like the woman she was before the affairs. At that point there is about a 100% chance that she way more than a little embarrassed and wants to act like nothing happened...and she feels a little depressed(ish) because now she's heading back to that life of being alone, no one talking to her and enjoying her company, no one paying attention...
If you want to really fix this and make your marriage super strong and blazing hot, you need to do two things. #1 You need to find out what Love Extinguishers you've been doing that hurt her. Now it's best if you ask her directly and she tell you, but if she feels weird telling you the truth or says "nothing" you can always ask her if she'd do a quiz. Love Busters Questionnaire. So that's step number one. Naturally it would be nice if she'd ask you what Love Extinguishers SHE does, but she might not at first, and honestly I wouldn't push it just yet. Even if you never, ever did any Love Kindlers, if you stopped the Love Extinguishers your marriage would be so much better! #2 You need to find out what Love Kindlers mean "I love you" to her and commit to doing those for her. I have a great example of these. My Dear Hubby love acts of service as a way to say "I love you"--and doing chores just does not mean love to me. So if he never asked me what my Love Kindlers were, he'd be cleaning away in the kitchen and changing my oil thinking "Wow look how much I'm showing her I love her" and I'd be thinking, "Why doesn't he act like he loves me? All he does is spend time in the kitchen and garage!" See what I mean? So ask her what her love language is, what her Love Kindlers are, or once again take a quiz. Emotional Needs Questionnaire. Just like before, it would be nice if she'd ask you what your Love Kindlers are, but she might not at first, and honestly I wouldn't push it just yet either. She'll get there.
In conclusion, regarding some of your questions:
1. "...if I stay I will become a bitter guy who nobody likes anyway -- leading to this situation again" Nope. You can choose to do differently and better by not looking at what SHE did and instead working on yourself and what you did. Banff you're a good man. You loved her and she loved you the way you are. You just need to learn again to be the man you truly are who attracted her, and learn how to not put out your own fire of passion.
2. "If I go - It will seriously affect how my kids are raised, what their life is like, and my relationship with them." Yes it will. And divorce has a much larger circle of devastation than that. I always refer to divorce as an atomic bomb, because it destroys in ever widening circles more than you have the capacity to imagine. Seriously, she loves you and chose to give up the affairs to work with you. You can do this!
3. "Is it possible that I married a person with serious issues?? Not trustworthy, attention needy, secretly sexually driven?? Or maybe she just hates her life with me and doesn't have the guts to come out and say it?" I have to say that I seriously doubt it. Very seriously. I think she had little or no interaction with or attention from adults, got lonely and hurt, missed the love of her husband, and then fell into a pretty slippery slope that can happen to anyone. If she can demonstrate that her words and actions match--that is trustworthy--but she would need the time to demonstrate to you she can be trusted. "Attention needy?" Yeah maybe a little but what human adult person doesn't need the attention of the one they love? I think we all need that and thus it's not so much "needy" as she put the need in the wrong place and it seems like she gets that. "Secretly sexually driven?" I have to say strongly, very strongly...PROBABLY NOT! It sounds like her fire can sure be stoked though! So rather than focusing on finding some secret sex she's surpressing, I suggest focusing on stoking that sexy fire. "Hates her life with you?" Hmmm... maybe a little and I don't mean she hates it or hates you, but rather it's hard to sit down with your husband and say, "Honey, this is dire. I need some more of your time and affection and flirting. It could affect our marriage." Shoot she probably didn't think it out loud in those words beforehand anyway! She may know it now...and for a fact you DO know it now. So rather than destroy family, shatter your children, and dishonor your vow--use what you've learned to make it better. Be the hero of our family, protect your children, and honor your vow by building a blazing hot fire of love with your wife...the one whom you promised to faithfully love until you died.
4. "What do you think - chump?? or man who swollows his pride hard and steps up to hold his family together and protect his children?" i'm leaning more toward man who steps up to bat for his wife and holds his family together and protects his children.
__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare
I wanted to say thanks for your posts. Your advice hit the spot nearly right on.
There were many love extinguishers I brought to this - and I am doing my best to change those. We are going away for the night - without kids - so we should have some time to talk and work on the fire.
A little more info. My wife said the first man did want to end the initmate portion of their relationship in March/April because it was not right?? However they did have many looooong phone converstions nearly right up until discovery day.
The Second did start as the first one was ending. But was nearly all based on sex. She said this drove her nuts - and she wanted to have good conversations with him but he always turned it to cyber sex. She met him one time while he was on leave from Iraq and they got busy.
But she for sure continued the emotional affair with dude#1. She claims there was no more sex with #1 -- this has been a little hard for me to believe.
Another question - we had a terrific week the week she met up with #2. We had two big gatherings / parties at our house that week. My wife and I spent two days alone with each other having great sex, going for bike rides, and eating out together. What gives - if life with me is so misreable...and if I drove her to do this.... By all accounts she was completely happy and totaly satisfied??
As for friends - she has a lot. She is a social butterfly and very outgoing. She has several girlfriends she does things with. And she talks on the phone with several of them many times a week. Our kids are getting old enough that they don't need to be waited on, and much of the time they are playing in the neighborhood.
Lastly - advice for me...What I want (I think) is to forgive, put this behind us, re-build, and move forward.
What I am having trouble with --- It hurts like hell. I am filled with doubt that I am strong enough. I can't understand how she risked her / our / the kids whole life for a ??? And my self esteem is destroyed. It seems like everything I have put into our life/my life has been tossed in a fire.
My sense of worth to the world is gone. I want to love her like before, and do some of the time, but its a rocky road with lots of turns. I can go from feeling like giving up and getting divorced to feeling like I can work this out and back - all in one day. Any advice here?
Again - I really appreciate you input. This is the only place where I feel free to share whats going on and get advice from folks who have lived it. Advice from ones who have not been here - well I feel like they can't possibly understand.
Banff, I just finished reading this thread and wanted to let you know you're not alone. The std thing is hard to get past. Everyone knows affairs leave emotional scars, but to have a physical one,too-ugh! When you wondered if you're being a chump for forgiving your wife and staying- I know that feeling all too well. But, I'm an optimist. I believe people can make terrible mistakes and,as long as they have stopped, they can be forgiven. I read Affaircare's post and it applies to my situation,too. I've already been doing a lot of it this past year and it's worked for me and my husband. So, my vote is for you to try it,too. Posted via Mobile Device
As always you wrote a LOT...so I'm working on a reply and I think I'm going to break it into a couple smaller posts okay?
It's easier to digest, deal with and handle in smaller bits I think...even though it is a really huge thing that affects your whole life, I don't think we can take on your whole life in this thread...do you? :P
__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare
Unless I missed something (and I may have overlooked it while perusing your posts), your wife has not cheated on you since this all came out in the open.
If she has not been with anyone else since you found out what was going on, give her another chance. Give her a chance to be forgiven and feel forgiven. Give her a chance to start over.
Trying to figure out why she did what she did is not as important as helping her feel "clean" again. My wife was able to change because I gave her a chance to prove herself to me. Whether or not she enjoyed the sex or did it for the sex or did it for the emotional fix doesn't really matter. She screwed up and it sounds like she realizes that.
Anyone could give into the temptations that she gave into if all of the circumstances are lined up. "Feeling" unforgiven can keep a person in bondage to their weaknesses. If there is any hope at all for her it lies in your willingness to give her a second chance. I speak from experience.
Dude
who cheats once will cheat again. and she didn't cheat only once she did that more than one time therefore it is not a mistake she planned for it, she drove to the place plus she had all the time to think about things she is doing.
she plot, planned, and went with it putting behind what you would feel afterward, and trust me if you didn't find out she would still have been doing it.
you gave her:
1- a loving husband
2- a beautiful kids
3- a steady relationship
4- a nice house with nice income.
and she gave you the worst that a man could ever think about:
1- cheated on you with multiple people
2- she gave you STD. herpes from another person.
dude it could have worse something like AIDs then gave it to you or your family.
women out there their husbands beat the hell out them, put them in hell and they never cheat.
she had no excuse what so ever. and may be if you did forgive her she will turn back tell everyone that you gave her STD and guess what court and friends will believe her, and she will still cheat on you.
if all the 17 years you were with here and the kids and the hard work you put in this family didn't stop her from cheating on you. what is going to stop her in future? your respect? your love thing she has for you? or because you trust her?
who is telling up there in posts to forgive her may be they are cheaters ( i don't know) and their spouse don't know about it.
Don't forgive and make her leave the house. Legally she has no right if she goes to the court to take your house or children after what she did specially STD part.
how you going to live with yourself and every time you there you know so many nasty trash STD infected men been there while you are out at work trying to bring food to the family?
Make her go, the sooner the better. or will she turn things back on you in the future, may be fall in love with another man then ask for a divorce and take your house and children plus child support because you can prove that she cheated on you first and gave you STD. divorce her for a year or so let her tast the reall life alone, let her see what she caused to herself.
Sorry if i was harsh on you. I just imagined myself in your shoes and got mad.
Thanks for all the feedback. This forum has been a huge part of making me feel "normal" again. Its sad to know that so many others are going through this, but at least I know that my emotions are normal, and it is not just me going through this. I can see myself in so many of the other threads and it feels sad and good all at the same time. At least I don't feel like I am CRAZY all the time.
Re: Need Clarity NOW
I can also say that I don't think this is hopeless, I do think you're not nuts and she's not some hidden sex fiend. 
See what I mean? So ask her what her love language is, what her Love Kindlers are, or once again take a quiz. 
