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Old 07-14-2010, 12:24 PM   #196 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Find something to do. Join a club or something.
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Old 07-14-2010, 12:36 PM   #197 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

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The sexual matuaring part is a very interesting opinion. My wife and I were virgins when we met. I think that we matured in this way together. We have always had a tough time keeping our hands off of each other. In terms of the bedroom activities. It has always been very very fulfilling and satisfying for us both. We have talked about this before in therapy and one on one. Our chemistry in this department has always been amazing. Sure as time has gone by it is less frequent than it use to be but the quality is umÖ wowÖ some it up pretty well. I know she would agree with me.
Jar, I am going to come at this from out in left field. I would bet a dollar that your wife is motivated by NRE.

New relationship energy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have not read every shred of this thread. But someone else who read your time line says your wife has had a lot of these connections over time. The motivations that she does not herself recognize is NRE.

While she may be in this affair induced fog, how are you going to deal with an NRE junkie in the future if she DOES ever come back to you?

Some people DO successfully deal with it with responsible non-monogamy. A google search of responsible non-monogamy should give you a bunch of info on this subject.

In our society, cheaters are considered the worst of the worst. And I agree that lying and deceit is terribly damaging in a relationship. But going against one's own nature can be literally impossible. If one is not a natural monogamist, what options do they have? Overcome their nature by resisting temptation. Possible for some. Or cheat. Society does not allow us any other options.

There are many people who simply philosophically reject monogamy and adopt responsible non-monogamy instead. There are many flavors of this I have read about. Some are swingers and only have sexual excitement outside of the marriage. Some are polyamorous, open to more than one love partner.

Now this sounds like not really your style, to be honest. BUT I think it is worth taking a think on how your wife is going to go forward if her need for NRE is not going to be met?
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Old 07-14-2010, 01:07 PM   #198 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Interesting thought

I can tell you that responsible non-monogamy is not my style. I donít think it is something that would work for me.

Going forward I would like to learn my wife needs and learn how to fulfill these needs. I guess I believe if I can do this and she can do the same for me. Then neither one of us would have a need to go outside of our marriage.

That is where I am at today and I guess I believe that would solve our problem.

JAR
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:05 PM   #199 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

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Interesting thought

I can tell you that responsible non-monogamy is not my style. I donít think it is something that would work for me.

Going forward I would like to learn my wife needs and learn how to fulfill these needs. I guess I believe if I can do this and she can do the same for me. Then neither one of us would have a need to go outside of our marriage.
Here is the thing. Not everyone CAN get their needs met by only one person. And a person who has a strong interest in NRE might be one of those people. One thing you are never ever going to be for her is new and exciting. Now you can say until you are blue in the face that she SHOULDN'T need that. But if she does, then you are hosed.
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Old 07-14-2010, 02:36 PM   #200 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

I see what you are saying.

I guess I donít know if this is one of her needs or not seeing as we are not communicating what so ever at this point.

JAR
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Old 07-15-2010, 08:31 AM   #201 (permalink)
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Here is the thing. Not everyone CAN get their needs met by only one person. And a person who has a strong interest in NRE might be one of those people. One thing you are never ever going to be for her is new and exciting. Now you can say until you are blue in the face that she SHOULDN'T need that. But if she does, then you are hosed.
NRE is a crackpot theory cooked up by a bunch of people who want an excuse for themselves for being too self-centered or not mature or responsible enough to handle all of the effort that a marriage requires.

If you want to stay effectively single and screw around for the rest of your life, fine by me...but at least have the decency to be honest about it, instead of trying to come up with "scientific" theories to explain why you don't really want to grow up.
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Old 07-15-2010, 01:08 PM   #202 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

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NRE is a crackpot theory cooked up by a bunch of people who want an excuse for themselves for being too self-centered or not mature or responsible enough to handle all of the effort that a marriage requires.
Hear hear! The definition of being human is that you are able to act rationally. You can make decisions that overrule and control your base desires. Marriage is a commitment that is rationally made, and it requires constant diligence.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:53 PM   #203 (permalink)
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NRE is a crackpot theory cooked up by a bunch of people who want an excuse for themselves for being too self-centered or not mature or responsible enough to handle all of the effort that a marriage requires.
NRE is not an excuse for anything. It is a feeling. For YOU, monogamy is the only way to live. This is not true for everyone. For those who don't require monogamy from their loved ones, NRE is something that is possible for them.

If you think marriage requires MORE effort than polyamory, I invite you to learn about polyamory. The more I read, the more I get exactly the OPPOSITE impression.

Quote:
If you want to stay effectively single and screw around for the rest of your life, fine by me...but at least have the decency to be honest about it, instead of trying to come up with "scientific" theories to explain why you don't really want to grow up.
I agree that one must be honest. One should not promise monogamy and then run around cheating. NRE is a scientific theory? I missed that.
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Old 07-15-2010, 05:55 PM   #204 (permalink)
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I see what you are saying.

I guess I donít know if this is one of her needs or not seeing as we are not communicating what so ever at this point.

JAR
Just a thought for later down the line. It does not matter too much right this second except insofar as it seems that for whatever reason she may be unwilling or unable to be a monogamous person.
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Old 07-15-2010, 06:23 PM   #205 (permalink)
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NRE is not an excuse for anything. It is a feeling. For YOU, monogamy is the only way to live. This is not true for everyone. For those who don't require monogamy from their loved ones, NRE is something that is possible for them.
I'm sorry but this NRE has been proven false time and again. At the beginning of a relationship many people may experience certain emotional highs and sensations brought on by specific chemical activity going on in the brain. This same activity is easily duplicated in many ways and is almost 100% identical to a runner's high. The same feelings can be achieved with one's current spouse simply by trying activities of the type that produce the same brain activity.

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If you think marriage requires MORE effort than polyamory, I invite you to learn about polyamory. The more I read, the more I get exactly the OPPOSITE impression.
I most certainly believe that marriage requires more effort than polyamory because I do not give the idea of polyamory any validation at all whatsoever, and have looked into it enough to know the facts. Most "polyamorous" relationships/agreements whatever you want to call them last less than a year, and for good reason - human beings are not polyamorous creatures. Immature people who want to have their cake and eat it too like to believe we are, though.

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I agree that one must be honest. One should not promise monogamy and then run around cheating. NRE is a scientific theory? I missed that.
There were quotes around the word "scientific" for a reason. Every reference I have ever seen to NRE is purposely made to sound as if it were a proven fact or widely accepted working theory, and it is no coincidence that the large majority of those references come from a person or organization that endorses polyamory as a lifestyle.
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:02 PM   #206 (permalink)
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So I am taking my thread back over again...If you guys want to debate NRE or polyamory start a new thread...Sorry if I am being harsh but I am done talking about this subject...

In my quest to understand marriage and affairs there has been a few things bothering me about my situation...I continue to work on myself and collect knowledge that will help me in the long run...The problem with my situation is I still feel dead in the water. Everything I have learned I can apply to myself which is great. However since my wife and I are no longer speaking or living together and she has continued her affair she canít see any of this work. So I have been struggling and I keep asking myself what is the pointÖI am a take action kind of person so what can I do next is what I have struggled with the past 2 weeks.

So I decided to go to the source. I decided I was going to get in touch with Dr. Harley and speak with him one on one and get some more answers. Turns out this is pretty easy and something they offer through the marriage builder website. I just got off the phone with Harleys son who has been working with him for a bunch of years. I am impressed with what he had to say. I donít have time to write it up right now and will post something tonight or tomorrow morning.

Stay tuned....Jar
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Old 07-16-2010, 12:26 PM   #207 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Glad to hear it! From what I've read, they really do focus just on no-nonsense, logical actions that work in many cases. I hope it helped.
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Old 07-16-2010, 01:48 PM   #208 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

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So I am taking my thread back over again...If you guys want to debate NRE or polyamory start a new thread...Sorry if I am being harsh but I am done talking about this subject...
I agree. I do not personally subscribe to NRE but if someone else does the place to declare that or talk about it is on THEIR OWN THREAD not yours. So good job putting your thread back on track!

Quote:
In my quest to understand marriage and affairs there has been a few things bothering me about my situation...I continue to work on myself and collect knowledge that will help me in the long run...The problem with my situation is I still feel dead in the water. Everything I have learned I can apply to myself which is great. However since my wife and I are no longer speaking or living together and she has continued her affair she canít see any of this work. So I have been struggling and I keep asking myself what is the pointÖI am a take action kind of person so what can I do next is what I have struggled with the past 2 weeks.
I would like to point out one little flaw in your thinking pattern there, Jar. If you could stand right in front of her face, and if you two lived together, she might see the changes faster...or more easily. But since you are not seeing her and are not in front of her face, that doesn't mean she doesn't see or know of the changes. I believe you and IAMNOTTHEONLYONE are in similar places in that his wife also is not living with him at the moment. BUT they have mutual friends, and the friends notice the changes and comment on them to her. Their son has noticed the changes and has commented on them to her. When they do have the limited interactions they have...she has noticed the changes and said so herself.

So you are feeling somewhat impatient and want her to see the changes and fix things now-NOW-NOW!! Lol But what really happens is that you keep your focus on you, on ending Love Extinguishers and on becoming the man you have the potential to be...and people notice. It gets to her via the grapevine. You keep making sure your own side of the street is clear and keep working on yourself and your own issues whatever they may be.

MEANWHILE, in affairland, guess what? She's discovering that Prince Charming has a tarnish or two (or ten). He does not have the moral qualities and characteristics you do. Now HE is the one doing Love Extinguishers to her and you are very quietly doing Love Kindlers. Now HE is the one who farts, leaves food on the counter, watches TV all night, etc. He has child support and/or a cranky ex in his closet. He has personal or mental health issues he won't address. He doesn't keep up the romance, so sex isn't as great. And all the while you have no Love Extinguishers because you're not there and you have purposely worked on eliminating them. Every time she sees you, you're calm, attentive, polite but assertive, and fair.

See? It's not immediate but that is what's happening.

Quote:
So I decided to go to the source. I decided I was going to get in touch with Dr. Harley and speak with him one on one and get some more answers. Turns out this is pretty easy and something they offer through the marriage builder website. I just got off the phone with Harleys son who has been working with him for a bunch of years. I am impressed with what he had to say. I donít have time to write it up right now and will post something tonight or tomorrow morning.
EXCELLENT! I know Steve Harley and he tells it like it is. You will get your money's worth and more, and I'm proud of you for taking that step. I can not WAIT to hear what he said.
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:09 PM   #209 (permalink)
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I am going provide an unpopular opinion or viewpoint. No offense intended to the OP.

I understand everyone's advice about how to win his wife back and end the affair. One of the issues I have with this tactic at times, and in this situation particularly, is that not every marriage SHOULD be "won back". It took me a few days to read through all of the posts here in this thread and one issue doesn't seem to be getting that kind of press it deserves. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, OP, because I'm paraphrasing. But you seem to have detailed multiple EAs your wife has been in both online and IRL. These started as soon as 2 years after your marriage. I understand you both married young, though it was loving and passionate in the beginning, all things are at 18 and 21. But have you considered that she really is not the woman meant for you. I mean I get that a WS can suffer delusions while they are actively in an affair and behave out of character. But it seems that this lifestyle may actually BE her character. I'm all for people working through problems, issues, and affairs in order to save their marriages, but it seems that there are people on this site that believe every marriage was pre-ordained and destined to be successful. That simply is not true and not realistic. People marry for all kinds of reasons and sometimes those reasons are not as pure and altruistic as we would like to believe.

Its fine to work on marital issues and cheating if both partners want to but I do feel at some point when only one partner is willing, affair or not, its not going to work. Where is there any guarantee that if the OP wife ends this affair, and they get back to together that she wont do it again. Now I'm not saying once a cheater, always a cheater, but I am saying she has shown her colors on numerous occassions and I'm not convinced. Of course there could be some big turnaround or an epiphany but so far there doesnt seem to be anything that would indicate that. It could simply be she is not the right woman for him, no matter how much he loves her and how much he wants her to be. People will always show you who they really are, but unfortunately we dont always want to believe it.
I am not demonizing or supporting the OP wife and her actions, but I'm just saying sometimes we should take people at face value and not what we want them to be.
Of course, the fact that you got married or involved very young doesnt help the situation. I mean, how many of us could have made smart, life altering decisions at 18 years old. Not a lot. I know the marriage came some years later but essentially the committment has been that long. I dont think the AP is necessarily the soulmate she has been seeking her whole life, but he may be enough to open her eyes to realize her current life and current marriage is not what she wants.

Consider for a minute that 2 people got married because of an unexpected pregnancy and decided to do "the right thing" by marrying. They may have never been "in love" but just trying to make the best of a situation. A few years and maybe another child later, one or both of them realize that they're missing something and can no longer just "get along". They are wanting more personal fulfillment and/or be with someone out of desire and not obligation. I'm not advocating an affair, by any means but they tell their spouse that they respect them but the love is never been there and they want out. They did nothing wrong,but now the partner launches into this full scale mission to convince them to stay. Using strategies from books, websites, etc. Is that fair? I dont know but I do think individual situations should be handled individually. Nothing against love busters, fireproof, love dare, affair care, marriage builders or any other of those programs, but I think when some posters quotes these sites, they are no longer individualizing the situation but jumping on bandwagons that these methods are applicable to all situations. They're not. They may be very successful in certain arenas but there also comes a time when some things and some people have to be let go.
Finally, as far as the OP is concerned. I think the NC thing is great for both of you and you should continue to work and strengthen yourself. We as forum participants should always remember we are only hearing the story from one angle and have no idea what the WS is really saying or doing or her motives. If people in his life who know both of them, family and friends, say that he should let her go and move on, consider the fact that they may know more about the situation and the couple than we do and there MAY be some merit in their assessment.
Thanks for reading, I'm ready for all the rebuttals
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Old 07-16-2010, 03:32 PM   #210 (permalink)
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Its fine to work on marital issues and cheating if both partners want to but I do feel at some point when only one partner is willing, affair or not, its not going to work.
This is quite true, but up until the point when the marriage ends, there is no reason to stop fighting for it. This is similar to the case of a loved one dying - the cause may appear hopeless, but acting on the assumption that 'it may not work out' or 'it doesn't feel like it's working' is not an excuse to give up. Help can come at the 11th hour.

We encourage the Loyal spouse to fight for the marriage as long as they can - and if it is at all possible, to let the END of the marriage be the sole responsibility of the Disloyal Spouse.

No one is omniscient. We cannot know with certainty that at the last possible moment, some refulgent eureka moment might not happen and things be saved. There is no reason to give up just because things seem or feel hopeless.

There is no reason to 'individualize' an affair situation, unless you are also willing to allow to individual definitions of terms - in which case, there is no point to even having a forum, since every person who read it has their own meaning for everything, argument ad absurdium. Unless marriage means something, unless fidelity means something, they mean nothing. And its a waste of time to talk about nothing.

So too, is it pointless to 'individualize' the steps a person should take to try to save their marriage. To do so would simply mean that no one could do anything - every word, every action would be different for every person. We (affaircare.com) use methods that we've worked on for a long time, and we've seen them work. Not with 100% perfection (nothing is perfect) - but we have seen enough result to know we are on the right track. If we instead decided that every case was somehow unique, we would be simply spinning our wheels....grasping about for random magic solutions to problems that every person individually perceives.

I am a philosophically an egoist, and an individualist. I believe that EACH person is a separate and unique individual. At the same time, I believe in the unity of logic. All humans breath air, all humans do not have wings and flit about ponds in the evening.

The error in claiming that each case must be dealt with 'individually' is not that this is not true. It is that it is an equivocation on the word 'individual.' It assumes a separation of individuals, rather than a distinction. It assumes that our attempts to help individuals are the FUSION of ideas, rather than a UNION of them. If we fused all our ideas into a magic mixture, we would fail most of the time. Instead, we consider the ideas we present a union of truth and practice. Separate the truth (an affair = 'x', a marriage = 'y') from the practice, and we'd be randomly helping no one.

Soap box left, (and sorry about using philosophical language rather than common tongue - in this instance, I felt that the issue runs to a deeper level...)

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