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Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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Old 06-17-2010, 11:05 AM   #106 (permalink)
jar
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

[QUOTE=turnera;158136]That's exactly what you should hope for, if you can wait it out. Only you know your limits. At MB, they recommend that, once you expose the affair, you wait a set amount of time before moving on. That's so that you don't end up condoning the affair by keeping her (if she's still at home) or that you don't lose what love you have left for her, by sitting back and watching her throw her affair in your face. I think the average time for a BH is something like 3 months. Plus, knowing a set time gives you hope: hope that you will either get her back or else WILL have another life waiting for you while you're still whole and not a mental cripple, lol.

Explain to them what you've learned about affairs and fog and rewriting history and brain chemicals and all. So they will understand it IS like she's been taken over by an alien, or that she's addicted to the 'drug' of the affair high.

This is VERY powerful stuff for you to understand, and I commend you. A LOT of women marry in their 20s with this grand vision of what marriage will do for them; or they don't even consider that part. They expect a man to come home and kiss her and care for her and make her feel special...every day...like when you're dating. Just like guys don't get what having a baby entails, usually, girls, IMO, don't get that marriage isn't the fantasy they grew up with.

In my experience - and I'm generalizing a LOT here, YMMV, often women do a LOT of compromising, a lot of stifling themselves, in a marriage, as they come to realize the guy has a different vision of what a marriage is. The romance goes away, all the stuff they expected, and they typically today take on a full-time job and also take over running the household. They give up their sports or their activities or their girls' nights, etc., to let the nesting instinct take over. Then, after many years, they realize that having kids is fine, being married, doing 75% of the housework, being responsible for keeping the family running (doctors, etc.)...but what about them?

QUOTE]

I think you are right about this. At this point I think I may understand her feelings better than she. She has never been able to verbalize these things.

Since day one she swept in and did the nesting thing. She runs the bills and handles all the house hold stuff cooks dinners and burdens her self with much of the stress of our life. The thing is I never asked her to do these things. When she would complain about these things I would offer to help or a solution. I also donít expect these things of her. I have told her this 100 times. For instance she didnít like cleaning either did I so I got a house cleaner. If she doesnít want to cook dinner I am fine with going out or eating left overís. In fact I never ask what is for dinner I ask are we having dinner tonight. I can through out a hundred examples like this. This is all things she has taken over in our life and likes doing her self.

In terms of her feeling like she has made sacrifices for me that have affected her happiness and she has lost her self along the way. I agree with that she has always been supportive of me and my stuff. She was supportive of my job even know she hated it. She always let us spends our money on what ever I wanted with out too much of a fuss etc. Except for now she feels she missed out and we have a assumed these roles permanently. I tell her tell me what you want out of life and we will make it happen together and I will be supportive. You want to move we can do that. You want to go to school again we can do that. You want to travel we can save up for that. But again she just always kind of says I donít know.

I have told her we donít have to be into the same things but we can reach a compromise on anything. I also told her that part of marriage is supporting your partner in there endeavors. For instance she started a small marry kay business for the fun of it. I have no interest in it but I tagged along to certain events and would listen and talk with her and share in her joy the best I could. Even know I could care less about that sort of thing. I new it was important to her. She has done the same for me on many things as well.

So I have told her all of these things but she doesnít see a change possible. I think it is mostly her in fact when she came home one of the things was we would make the house hold stuff more of a partnership that way she would not feel burdened all the time. Except that when I would join in to help or say we need to balance the check book lets do it. She would respond with I already did it with out you. So she just slipped back into her same old responsibility when she returned home.

I think that she also has a lot of fantasy about lots of romance and passion etc. Like when we were dating and there isnít as much of that now in our life. As our therapist said all of the fundamentals of a good relationship are there. They need some fine tuning and redirecting. Also we both need to learn a few skills about communication. I guess this is something that she does not hear or process when the consular and I tell her.

So I understand what you are saying. I just wish she would realize she does not need to leave our marriage to fulfill these dreams. I want to be by her side and help her accomplish her goals in life what ever they may be. I am open to just about anything. Again I have readily told her this.

JAR
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Old 06-17-2010, 11:50 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Maybe she would hear it from someone else?

If you have money and can get her to go, marriagebuilders.com puts on weekend sessions you both go to, and it's supposed to be amazing at getting you both focused on having a marriage you BOTH enjoy.

IDK, all I can think is be creative.

Also, when you say she 'doesn't know'...that sounds like a big red flag to me in terms of her possibly having personal issues that are going to cause her to self destruct no matter what you do. Do you have any sense of that? What was her childhood like?
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:31 PM   #108 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

II would spend the money but I guess the affair has to be over and since she is saying divorce I think it would be tough to get her to something like this. 3 months ago I asked her if she would go with me to see gottman. It was going to cost about 7k. She wasnít into in to it. It was a bad time in our relationship.

In terms of my wifeís childhood. She is a small town girl all of her family and extended family lives near by. She has a ton of extended family and relatives. She grew up in a pretty good home. Both parents are married still. Her mom is pretty loving and caring person. She is also a very emotional woman. She cries at the drop of a hat. Her dad is a great guy. Typical guy into hunting and sports. He worked very hard all his life to provide for his family. He is also stubborn guy that can get grumpy. They werenít wealthy people but they didnít go with out either. Overall I think it was a good life for them


She has one older sister. She is only a year older. My wife has always felt she is following in her sister foot steps. Her sis is a teacher and married her high school sweet heart. They have a great house and 2 year old twins. They never moved away either.

So family life for her was pretty good. Great loving family lots of aunts and uncles and cousins. Every one is very close. Every Sunday they all use to get together for Sunday lunch and do the family thing.

My wife is one of the only ones that have moved away and we are only 2.5 hours away. So she likes to go and see them often which drives me nuts and interferes in our marriage.

I know there is something deep going on in her. She has loneliness issues and in my opinion depression issues. She is also stubborn and says she doesnít have any issues. She has let me in some over the past few months and much of the time feels that she is not attractive. She also feels people will not like her if she dresses a certain way or wears too much markup etc. She drives her self nuts with these thoughts. I tell her every day she is beautiful. Which she is and her response usually is youíre my husband and you do not know what youíre talking about. I think many people think she is a bit tough to get along with. She is stubborn and has no problem telling others what she thinks. She can also be demanding and a complainer especially when she has to do something she doesnít like.

My wife does not have many friends and hardly opens up to anyone. She just puts on a happy face much of the time especially in front of her family. I never realized how good of an actor she is until recently


She is the type of person that takes care of our home and does a great job. In her down time she reads or watches TV. She also works out some. So she does not have many hobbies or interests in her life.

Some of her relatives on both sides have drug and alcohol problems.

I do think something major is brewing in side of her and she is not on a good path. I could be wrong but this is my take on things. I have even spoken to her family about this and asked them to take care of her.

JAR
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Old 06-17-2010, 03:49 PM   #109 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Look into a book called Healing the Shame That Binds You. It may or may not apply to you, but it's really great stuff to learn, and may help. Second daughter, obsession with looks, closed off...are fairly good indicators of toxic shame.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:14 PM   #110 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Hey Jar~

Just so you know, I think you may have misunderstood my suggestions, so if you don't mind, I will re-word them. There was a concern brought up that in some states, if you miss a mediation appointment you can be fined, so I wanted to look up the laws in your state about mediation and divorce, and gather all the facts.

What I discovered is that once divorce is filed, and before it is finalized, the court will almost always order some kind of attempt at reconciliation-mediation or marriage counseling. These court orders are usually/often for 60 days, and if you were to ask for both of those options that's a minimum of 120 days (or 4 months) right there! Thus, your fear that this divorce was being hurried and would be over in 2 weeks can be soothed.

PLUS I see that neither of you has even filed yet! So this mediation is not court-ordered (which would look bad if you didn't go), but rather is all voluntary!! Thus, my suggestion to you is to stall/delay legal action as long as possible. If you were to go to the voluntary mediation and "reach agreements" with her on how to divide the assets, how to divide the debts, how much to pay for alimony or child support...then she could file a Joint Divorce and it would indeed go much faster.

Soooo...since all of this is voluntary, I suggest telling the mediator that you are no longer interesting in reaching agreements about how to end the marriage and that the dispute you want to resolve is how to save the marriage. If they don't want to mediate that dispute, then I would be VERY polite and say, "Thank you--I will find a mediator with whom I'm comfortable to resolved that conflict. Bye!"

The reason I suggest that is that you do NOT have to go to that mediation! That is your wife's attempt to say, "Hey can we have a nice, friendly divorce and you just agree to pay me to carry on the affair? Please?" You don't have to be a jerk--just say no. "Sorry sweetheart I'm not interested in agreeing how to split things for a divorce so I won't be cooperating in divorce behavior. I'm interested in negotiating how to repair the marriage, and I'll put my efforts into that."

So in order here's what I suggest:
1) Begin immediately with the 7 Steps to Ending an Affair. We can review together which step you are on right now--I think you have evidence, may be on one of the C-D-E steps, and could possibly be up to Carrot & Stick.
2) Voluntary Mediation--Don't necessarily let her control or guilt you into willingly agreeing on "how to separate and divorce." I don't mean be a jerk, but these meetings are of your own volition--thus you don't need to go at all if you don't want to! If you do, I wouldn't agree to paying her anything, and I'd keep voluntary mediation to discussing how to save the marriage or nothing. In other words, this is not a requirement and you are not compelled to do this, so either use it to save the marriage or don't do it.
3) If papers are filed--First I'd say if you don't want the divorce, don't file for divorce. If she wants it, she has to file! If she doesn't file, you don't have to do anything, legally. If she does file papers, you have a certain timeframe (usually 30 days) in which to respond, and I'd suggest waiting for as much of the timeframe as possible before you respond (like 28 days) and then counter-claiming with the grounds of adultery and finding a lawyer who is very pro-marriage. Then you can do many tactics to stall such as claiming adultery. That delays because if you claim that you then have a timeframe to submit some evidence to support your claim (usually 30 MORE days)... and so on! You can ask for Legal Separation instead of divorce. You can ask that the court order reconciliation mediation ... then ask for court-ordered marriage counseling. So you could delay a divorce for a long, long time, even sometimes just by asking for an extension by the court or by rescheduling!

So to recap--no I don't think you should take any legal steps if she hasn't! But if she does, even then don't panic because there are tactics to delay until the affair ends.

Now to reply directly to some of what you said:

Quote:
Affaircare I appreciate the research you put in on my behalf. It was very insightful and gave me a lot to think about. I think the mediator is ok but you bring up a good point the mediator knows we are at opposite ends of the table with me not wanting a divorce and my wife wanting out. I guess I feel that she started mediating the split and dove right into the nuts and bolts with finances and debts etc. She didn’t really address the issues at hand with one wanting out and the other not. I am angry at her for this and feel that she has sided with divorce. I am going to challenge her on this big time. She needs to mediate this before anything else.
It concerns me that you say you are going to challenge her (the mediator). Usually the word "challenge" has a connotation of being a little confrontational and defiant. I would encourage you to have an attitude that is calm, consistent and confident (not evasive), but not demanding or provoking or instigating. Overall, you want to have some flexibility and open mindedness, but have a clear definition of what you will and will not accept--a clear definition of your boundaries. Then, very politely, stand by and enforce them. By "boundaries" do not mean what you will and will not let your wife do, but rather it is a fence around YOU: what you will and will not accept in your life and around you. So a good example would be: "I am not interested in mediating about how to split possessions as I don't agree with doing that at this time. Since this is voluntary, what I am interested in mediating is how to save the marriage. I would like her to end her affair and put that energy into returning the love to our commitment."

Quote:
I am also not happy with the amount of money I have to pay the wife. I feel I owe her 400 a month to much. I don’t think she heard me or my points. So I am really going to lay the law down on her about these two issues. Part of the reason I feel I am paying to much is basically because I want my wife’s budget to get really tight. I am good with numbers and budgets and will come armed to argue my point next time. I will get my way I am persuasive and have argued way bigger deals in my day so I am not worried about that.
Ah--three things catch my eye there. You "Have To" pay your wife huh? Who's making you? Not the courts. Not the police. No laws. Not the mediator? Sooooo...what exactly is compelling you to pay your wife anything? The reason I ask is not to be mean, but the way I see it, your wife is basically asking you to agree to pay her to carry on the affair! That seems...unbelievable! It seems reasonable to me that if you made a commitment to a loan, that you continue to pay that loan or bill as long as that item is not being used to continue the affair! For example...she's staying at home, she has the OM at the house, but your name is on the mortgage and deed...I say move back home. Period. What's she going to do, stop you? It's your house too! If your name isn't on the mortgage or deed...don't pay that bill because she's using the house to further the affair. Cell phone on your plan and she's using it to call the OM? Drop her cell off your plan. Get the idea? I don't see ANYTHING that is forcing you to pay your wife ANYTHING!! She vowed to dedicate all of her affection and loyalty only for you, and she is the one who is breaking the commitment. So if she wants to break the agreement between you two, she has to fund her own way to do so. This is not done in a vindictive way but rather in a calm, firm, confident enforcement of boundaries: "I will not finance any part of my spouse's adultery."

Next, I see you saying you're going to force the mediator again. See where you said: "...I am really going to lay the law down" and "...I will get my way"? Those kinds of statements are controlling and demanding and at a time like this, being confrontational and manipulative is not going to advance your case. Be consistent and firm instead. "No I will not volunteer to fund adultery--she'll need to pay for that." "She decided to break contract between us, and she'll need to decide how to pay for her choices now."

Quote:
Affair care I have thought a lot about the legal issues you have brought up. First off no one has filed or even really talked about it at this point. I could go the legal direction that you described to buy time but I hope it does not come to this. Basically I think it makes me look like an A hole and feel that it will push my already stubborn wife further away. Don’t you...Don’t you think it will be obvious to everyone what I am doing and make it worst. This is the point where I can see things getting really ugly. She will push a way harder and quicker.
Yeah see up above. I wasn't suggesting you do those things NOW...but rather, even if she does file at some point in the future, you still have plenty of options to stall. I would do none of those things now.

Quote:
I have been so fixed on this affair as being the problem. If that were over I have been thinking that would be the end all. The wife would come home we work on things and life would be grand. I have to at this point consider that is only a small part of the problem. I have to come to the relation and deal with the fact the wife wants out of being married for her own reason. Some reasons I will never understand. She has things she wants to do and experience in life with out being married. I have to deal with this and I just haven’t been.
I somewhat disagree with ya here, Jar. You are beginning to second guess yourself because you're starting to fall for/believe the disloyal dizziness. You see, your disloyal spouse will say and do anything to continue her addiction (namely the affair). She also does not want to accept any of the blame or take any personal responsibility for the affair. So, in order to deflect blame from herself to others, your wife will say things like "I haven't been happy for a long time" or "I don't love you like a wife should" or "This has nothing to do with the OM--I just don't love you anymore." I have to tell you, Jar, all disloyal spouses say things like this and I'd say about 90% of them don't really mean it. That's not to say they are deliberately lying but rather they that they are re-inventing the past and magnifying the negative whilst simultaneously looking at the OM and magnifying the positive. Thus a LOT of what she says right now really is not going to be logical, or make any sense. If you see that, just say to yourself, "Oh that's the disloyal dizziness that AC told me about." It is talk that just makes NO SENSE and doesn't seem to fit with the facts--okay?

Quote:
My therapists and I talked a lot today and she really helped me realize a few things. My issue is I don’t want this to happen at all costs and I am not dealing with certain emotions. She also explained things are happening really fast at this point and I am being made to feel like I have to do certain things that I don’t want to like get a divorce and sine on a dotted line. Heres the thing I am a supper defiant person. If I am being told what to do and I really don’t want to do it this is where I can become a real s&%* head. I go into shut down mode. When this happens I can get ruthless. I get angry and vindictive this is where I would just become a real pain in the butt. The wife would end up having even more ill will towards me and never want to come back to a person like this. I was already in this mode today. A friend had to talk me off the walls. I was ready for a battle. I don’t want to be a monster or be remembered by the wife as a person like this.
I have no doubt whatsoever this is one of the Love Extinguishers that put on the flame of love in your wife's heart. This will be the #1 thing you work on in Plan A--Carrot & Stick.

Quote:
How about I just come to the mediation session and explain to her this is sudden and fast for me and I feel like it is out of control. Explain that I need to slow things way down and just ask her can we just separate for 5 months or so and that is it. Explain there is a lot of emotion driving our decision so it would give us a chance to calm before we go any further. But mostly explain that I need her to give me this separation time so that I can grieve and let her go and be ok about this. Explain to her that if she doesn’t give me this time that it will get ugly. Not because I want it to but because this is how I get when I am being forced to do something I don’t want to do. How about I explain to her that emotionally and mentally I can’t do this at this time because I am not at a place to let her go yet. Tell her this separation is all about my needs at this point and I need her to do this for me.
NOTE TO SELF, Jar. Your wife is in selfish-mode. She does not give a rip if you can or can not "deal with it" right now. So going this route--appealing to her heart-strings--will not mean anything to her right now. She'll probably respond with resentment at best. I do think that going to mediation and saying "This is going too fast and I request a 5 month separation, during which time I will pay for my apartment, car, and personal bills and she will pay for the house, her car and her own personal bills" would be fine. The end. Anything beyond that she's about 99% likely to say "So? Our whole marriage was about your needs and now it's about time I thought of MY needs!"
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Last edited by Affaircare; 06-21-2010 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 06-17-2010, 07:14 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

I will have to look into that book. At this point I donít think I could even talk to her about something like this.

I am noticing the wife has been on face book all week and it dawned on me why. She told me in passing that her affair partner was going back home to India for 2 weeks at her request to be with his family during the middle of June. So my guess he is out of the country right now. That leads me to believe that the pressure is not that stressful on the affair at this point. Maybe she will rethink things with him out of the country for a while.

Itís on m mind and bothering me tonight...

JAR
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Old 06-17-2010, 08:28 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Affaircare once again you have given me much to think about especially about the bills and the funding. Thank you for clarifying everything for me. Everybody on this forum is awesome. When I say I have to pay my wife it is basically my half of the house hold bills. But I think you are right about funding this affair. Why do I have to pay half the cell phone and internet bill? This is there main means of communication.

As you can see some of my defiance and me wanting confrontation and ready to battle was coming out in my posts. Normally I am only like this when it comes to business dealings not something I ever direct towards the wife. It also only comes out when I am really pushed to the edge. This is going to take a lot of work to keep myself composed and not go to this place where I am manipulative and ready for a battle royal. Affairecare you would not believe the sorts of shenanigans I have pulled when I have been in this mode in the past.

I have much to ponder for the rest of the night

JAR
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Old 06-18-2010, 12:28 PM   #113 (permalink)
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So I have been thinking a little bit more about some of these posts. First of all the reason I have to pay the wife is the mediator took at our monthly expenses and loans and split that number in half. So the reason I have to pay is many of these things are loans we both have our name on. But I could not pay internet and phone and probably could think up a few more.

I guess the part I need some help on is my composure. How do I express what I want and hold my ground with out coming across as angry, defiant, or confrontational? I know I need to come across as confident and charming etc. I am going to need some coaching on how to do this.

I did hear form the wife today I over drew our joint checking account big time. hehehe. I also did transfer the money I agreed to and she thanked me. She also is sending me a few things I requested. So it was nice to hear from her in a civil manner. I am probably reading into things to much. I got the feeling that she was home and taking the day off.

So the affair dizziness here is what I donít understand is she says she wants this divorce very clearly. Our marriage counselor is a hot shot counselor very highly respected etc. She has never brought up about this affair stuff. She also specializes in sexual types of disorders to. My wife counselor specializes in marriage counseling and again is a hot shot and is very well respected and then there is my counselor. None are saying donít believe her. All are saying this is what your wife is telling you and what she wants. So my question is why isnít her counselor working with her on this affair dizziness sort of stuff. I am second guessing my self big time. I am just her husband these other people are highly trained experienced physiologist. Why arenít they talking about this stuff?



Lastly get this our mediator is 200 hundred an hour. Ok thatís a lot of money but lets put that a side. She came highly recommended. So I show up thinking mediation is going to be in an office or something. No I show up to this gorgeous house on top of a mountain in the country and we begin mediation at her dinning room table with her dog sitting by my feet. This seems unusual to me. She is very kind and sentimental and I like her. I am on the fence about being at her house and not at an office. Just really through me off guard. Guess this mediation is much more personal touchy feely thing being at her home and not at an office. I feel like we should have been having some tea and cakes instead talking divorce. Does this sound strange to you guys? Like I said I am on the fence with the whole thing.

JAR
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Old 06-18-2010, 06:22 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Quote:
Why aren’t they talking about this stuff?
Because YOU aren't.

Honestly, at this point I would just use plain logic. And bring up AFFAIRS at every opportunity. "My wife wants to break up because she's having an affair. I don't want to break up, so I have decided I will no longer go along with this peacefully, since it's her affair that is driving this and I no longer believe that she is the same person I used to know. Unless my wife stops her affair, I have no interest in coming to the table and being the one who just hands over my marriage."
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:51 AM   #115 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Turnera

I think you are right about this. I am going to start brining it up as much as I can. See if it makes a difference.

I must admit I am getting really home sick. I miss my wife and my home. I am half tempted just to move back just so I can see my wife. But I also know her behavior and emotions will just drive me nuts. So at this point it is best for me to stay away for my own sanity.

This weekend was nice. I spent the day with my brother out in our boat. With the company of some ladies. I am still hung over and didnít make it in to work today. Now I remember why I donít get hammered any more. I hate being hung over. I havenít been this way since college.

JAR
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:57 AM   #116 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

lol have you seen Get Him To The Greek? Lots and lots of hangovers. Great movie, btw.
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:17 PM   #117 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

It is on my list to see.

I did some checking into our online finances today. Looks like the wife has not spent any money except for some on gas and groceries. Although as soon as I transfer her some cash on Friday she immediately transferred that money to her checking account. It gives me really good ammo for our next mediation session next week. I am not funding this affair. That money is for my part of the bills. Not for her.

JAR
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Old 06-21-2010, 08:56 PM   #118 (permalink)
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Make sure you say that out loud. Good learning.
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Old 06-21-2010, 09:10 PM   #119 (permalink)
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Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

OH YEAH I agree!


Here's how this goes: you pay her $800 a month "for the bills" and she uses it to blow on the OM, doesn't pay a single bill, and you get stuck with no wife and bills that are MONTHS behind and creditors!

OH NO!!!!

In mediation you say this: "I owe $800/mo. toward our mutual bills but I will not give money to my wife blindly. I will pay the X bill, the Y bill and the Z bill myself and provide a copy to her within 3 days of the receipt of payment for those bills"

Then you pay the bills in your name to the creditor directly--NOT to her!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! In addition, do not pay for her internet, her cell phone, or anything she's using to further the affair. Nope, if she wants to chase some other man she does that on HER OWN DIME!! You pay for heat, electricity maybe...your own car payment, health insurance, your own credit card, that kind of thing.
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Old 06-22-2010, 09:51 AM   #120 (permalink)
jar
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Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 370
Default Re: Some one please read and help me I am out of options

Luckily the wife is very honest about our financials. Well so far. I am not assuming anything at this point. In fact it is something that she worries about constantly. Not having enough money. Which we have more than enough to get by on. So this moving of the money I deposited is an interesting game.

This week I am really working on getting myself composed for our next mediation session next week. I really donít want to come across as being defiant, angry, stubborn, or confrontational. I want to come across as the good guy. But I have some ground rules that need to be addressed and abided by.

I guess the biggest thing is I donít want to threaten or be manipulative or get really confrontational. I have been reading a lot about these behaviors in how to survive and affair. These types of things are love extinguishers according to my reading. I can see why. This is going to be really tough for me.

I can help but wonder what my odds are of getting my wife back. I keep wondering should I give up. The only people keeping me going is the people on this forum.

Also her affair partner will be back in the country next week. I hope that the distance for the past two weeks doesnít make there relationship even more intense and passionate etc. I want things to hurry up and be over.

JAR
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