Affaircare

I didn't think it was cool to continue to talk about this topic in Jar's thread because that thread is for him and his situation, so I hope you don't mind...I started our own thread. Here is a quote of what you originally wrote in Jar's thread:

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I am going provide an unpopular opinion or viewpoint. No offense intended to the OP.

I understand everyone's advice about how to win his wife back and end the affair. One of the issues I have with this tactic at times, and in this situation particularly, is that not every marriage SHOULD be "won back". It took me a few days to read through all of the posts here in this thread and one issue doesn't seem to be getting that kind of press it deserves. Please correct me if I'm wrong here, OP, because I'm paraphrasing. But you seem to have detailed multiple EAs your wife has been in both online and IRL. These started as soon as 2 years after your marriage. I understand you both married young, though it was loving and passionate in the beginning, all things are at 18 and 21. But have you considered that she really is not the woman meant for you. I mean I get that a WS can suffer delusions while they are actively in an affair and behave out of character. But it seems that this lifestyle may actually BE her character. I'm all for people working through problems, issues, and affairs in order to save their marriages, but it seems that there are people on this site that believe every marriage was pre-ordained and destined to be successful. That simply is not true and not realistic. People marry for all kinds of reasons and sometimes those reasons are not as pure and altruistic as we would like to believe.

Its fine to work on marital issues and cheating if both partners want to but I do feel at some point when only one partner is willing, affair or not, its not going to work. Where is there any guarantee that if the OP wife ends this affair, and they get back to together that she wont do it again. Now I'm not saying once a cheater, always a cheater, but I am saying she has shown her colors on numerous occassions and I'm not convinced. Of course there could be some big turnaround or an epiphany but so far there doesnt seem to be anything that would indicate that. It could simply be she is not the right woman for him, no matter how much he loves her and how much he wants her to be. People will always show you who they really are, but unfortunately we dont always want to believe it.
I am not demonizing or supporting the OP wife and her actions, but I'm just saying sometimes we should take people at face value and not what we want them to be.
Of course, the fact that you got married or involved very young doesnt help the situation. I mean, how many of us could have made smart, life altering decisions at 18 years old. Not a lot. I know the marriage came some years later but essentially the committment has been that long. I dont think the AP is necessarily the soulmate she has been seeking her whole life, but he may be enough to open her eyes to realize her current life and current marriage is not what she wants.

Consider for a minute that 2 people got married because of an unexpected pregnancy and decided to do "the right thing" by marrying. They may have never been "in love" but just trying to make the best of a situation. A few years and maybe another child later, one or both of them realize that they're missing something and can no longer just "get along". They are wanting more personal fulfillment and/or be with someone out of desire and not obligation. I'm not advocating an affair, by any means but they tell their spouse that they respect them but the love is never been there and they want out. They did nothing wrong,but now the partner launches into this full scale mission to convince them to stay. Using strategies from books, websites, etc. Is that fair? I dont know but I do think individual situations should be handled individually. Nothing against love busters, fireproof, love dare, affair care, marriage builders or any other of those programs, but I think when some posters quotes these sites, they are no longer individualizing the situation but jumping on bandwagons that these methods are applicable to all situations. They're not. They may be very successful in certain arenas but there also comes a time when some things and some people have to be let go.
Finally, as far as the OP is concerned. I think the NC thing is great for both of you and you should continue to work and strengthen yourself. We as forum participants should always remember we are only hearing the story from one angle and have no idea what the WS is really saying or doing or her motives. If people in his life who know both of them, family and friends, say that he should let her go and move on, consider the fact that they may know more about the situation and the couple than we do and there MAY be some merit in their assessment.
Thanks for reading, I'm ready for all the rebuttals

__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare.

The 180 * Coping With Infidelity Newbies--Please read this!

Affaircare

Then...here was my reply to that one:

Actually I am VERY glad you posted this Rosado, and I would be happy to consider exactly your scenario..as you wrote it.

"Consider for a minute that 2 people got married because of an unexpected pregnancy and decided to do "the right thing" by marrying. They may have never been "in love" but just trying to make the best of a situation."

So two young people got together and had at least enough physical attraction to have sex. Maybe they did not know each other very much and were not infatuated, but for any number of reasons, including being drunk and using that state of inhibition, they have sex. As a result, the lady becomes pregnant. Using your own example, the two people are AWARE of the pregnancy, she tells him and does not abort, and together the two of them make a conscious decision to consider the needs of the child ahead of their own selfish wants. They make an informed decision to voluntarily form a family unit for the raising and support of the child. And there is no reason I can see that they can not make just as informed, just as voluntary conscious decision to consider the needs of their spouse and treat their spouse with love and kindness. Thus, I see nothing here precluding these two people who did not previously feel "infatuation" to consciously decide to work on having a happy, content relationship with each other.

"A few years and maybe another child later, one or both of them realize that they're missing something and can no longer just "get along". They are wanting more personal fulfillment and/or be with someone out of desire and not obligation."

As previously demonstrated, these two are able to put the needs of their family and children ahead of their own selfish wants. So they think of the family they volunteered to raise and support, and they think of the spouse who has been with them through thick and thin. The one who is "missing something" makes the conscious decision to still honor their vow and show their family love but GOING TO their spouse and saying, "I am missing something." The two of them discuss how they are having trouble getting along without fighting or the fact that the one spouse doesn't really want to just be there with no purpose and no meaning. They discuss the personal fulfillment that the one spouse is craving, and through a mutual united understanding, they figure out ways for that spouse to FIND that personal fulfillment. If it is a lack of desire--they agree together how to rekindle the desire and lust in their relationship. If they don't know how to discuss these things, they find a pastor, coach, counselor or mentor of some sort to help them. The commitment is not threatened, and they continue to honor their word, which says "I volunteer to forsake all others for you, through all that life send us, until death."

"I'm not advocating an affair, by any means but they tell their spouse that they respect them but the love is never been there and they want out. They did nothing wrong,but now the partner launches into this full scale mission to convince them to stay. Using strategies from books, websites, etc. Is that fair?"

Love is not a "feeling" because feelings/emotions come and go, and change with the seasons. Love is an action. Love is treating your spouse in a loving way. Love is when your spouse treats you in a loving way. Soooo...since these two put their own selfish wants to the side for the good of their child, and made a conscious decision to come together to raise and support their new family unit....then yes, it is fair. They are perfectly capable of deciding, again, to ACT in a way that is loving toward their spouse. They are perfectly capable of choosing to act, AGAIN, in a way that honors their commitment to each other and putting their own selfish wants aside. They are perfectly capable of using the strategies, books, websites etc. even to recreate the "feelings" of lust and desire and romance and affection!

I believe this would be a great analogy for you, Rosado (and for Jar too, as this is indeed his thread). Suppose you go to the doctor because you have an STD--it's syphilis. The treatment for syphilis is penicillin...every single time. The treatment does not change depending on if you got it during the daytime or night...nor does how MUCH syphilis you have change the treatment. Now, the WAYS that a person got syphilis can be varied and may indicate additional illness or weaknesses or require additional resources and referrals. But you can't change the fact that if you have X --you cure X by doing Y. Furthermore, some doctors are specialists who can tell the difference between syphilis bacteria A, and syphilis bacteria Q...and other doctors are more generalized and do know that curing syphilis = penicillin but don't know all the various brands of the STD.

It's very similar here. The treatment for an affair is the seven steps, every time. In this instance it may not "cure" the affair but it is the most effective treatment and has the highest likelihood of treating it. The treatment does not change depending on the individual circumstances of what lead up to the affair...now does it change if you SAW your spouse nude in bed or if it was an EA. Now, the WAYS that a marriage got involved in an affair can be varied and may indicate additional illness or weaknesses or require additional resources and referrals. But you can't change the fact that if you have affair--you "cure" infidelity by 1)Taking 7 Steps to End the Affair, and 2) Taking Steps to Rebuild a New, Healthy Marriage. Furthermore, some counselors specialize in just this area and know the different types of infidelity and some subtle differences, but many counselors are more general "marriage counselors" and can also deal with areas like parenting, financial difficulties, sex in marriage, etc.

I would agree with you that it is absolutely true that the people in his life know both of them better than we do. They know him and his limits. They know her and her weaknesses. Their absolutely may be some merit to their assessment. But are they doctors? Even though they know the couple very, very well and may even know their health somewhat...would you go to the family to ask them, "Is this arm broken? You know them." Probably not, because they didn't really study medicine and may or may not be able to tell and if they could tell, may or may not be able to know what to do to FIX the broken arm. Same here. They may indeed recognize that it's broken, but chances are that their only contact with either infidelity or divorce would be if/when it happened to them...and they may or may not have done a very good job? It makes common sense to listen to BOTH: the people who know you very well, and the person who's an expert at AFFAIRS.

__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare.

The 180 * Coping With Infidelity Newbies--Please read this!

Affaircare

Finally, here is what you wrote to my reply:

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Thank you affaircare, for taking the time to respond to my post. I certainly do not discredit your reasoning nor your approach to fixing affairs in marriages and other LTRs. I am not an expert on affairs, neither on how they start nor how to end them. So you get no arguments from me there. My only contention that is that not all marriages are born out of love like we would like them to be. As I said before, people get married for all kinds of reasons, pregnancy, drunken trip to vegas, running away from bad family life, societal expectations, money etc.
Now if there were some real basis of love between the couple at the beginning of the relationship, then I agree that through various steps, programs and coaching it can be rekindled and even survive an affair. But what if love was never part of the equation? As much as we dont want to admit it, some marriages dont begin with that key ingredient. If there is no foundation to return to, then it probrably wont work. If it did, then you could almost take 2 strangers put them through the programs and expect their marriage to work.
I disagree with view that individual relationships shouldnt be handled on a case by case basis. Treating the couple with regards to their specific situation doesnt have to exclude the use and success of the affair proof programs. Though I am not an affair expert, I think we will have to agree to disagree on generalizing every couple. Admittedly, marriages fall apart and affairs happen for different reasons, so to acknowledge that the cure may require different strategies is not too much of a stretch.
By the same token, acknowledging that some marriages are mistakes from the very beginning is not unreasonable. We all make mistakes, some big and some small. Hindsight is 20/20. Some people can work and fix their problems right away and be successful, some never acknowledge their mistake and continue to live a lie to please someone else, and others try to fix it and fail and have chalk it up to a learning experience.
I just dont think the "Never say die" mentality applies to ALL situations. Just my opinion, anyway

BTW: I'm not referring to the OP situation when I said some marriages are mistakes. I was just generalizing Please dont take anything personally.
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Now we should be all caught up!

__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare.

The 180 * Coping With Infidelity Newbies--Please read this!

flowergirl77

This is where I am at!! Trying to figure out if it is time to quit. I do believe some people are not meant to last forever...I truly do. I also believe you must both do everything you can to save the MG before throwing in the towel-exhausting all options. But then...if both of you are so estranged that you can't even look into your husbands eyes-what then? I can't return the love, affection etc...

iamnottheonlyone

You must look into his eyes. You know that they are the windows to the soul. It would help a great deal if you did. In order to recover and truly make an effort you looking into his eyes is very crucial.

Tanelornpete

Can't = won't. It's a choice you make, not some inevitable fate that has taken over you. The verbiage here should be..."you won't even look into your husband's eyes - what then? I won't return the love, affection etc..."

Everyone dies. Part of being human. No one is 'meant to last forever.' But the terms you use in your vow are 'love, honor and cherish' through 'better or worse' till 'death do you part.' Forever is not the issue. Till DEATH parts you is part of the contract. So the question is not to love 'forever' but until one or both of us dies.

'Love, honor and cherish': actions that you perform, attitudes with which you choose to view your partner.

Rosado

Thanks for moving our thread, Affaircare. That was very considerate. I'm interested in your response regarding marriages that may not have begun on a foundation of love, like those I've mentioned previously. How do you reconcile these marriages and get them to be more than mutual "business arrangements".
I am a big believer in marriage and do not take this institution lightly, but I am somewhat more pragmatic and realistic in my belief that some of them were mistakes right from the beginning. Human nature is for us to deal with situations in the best way we know how and to give it our all before calling it quits, but sometimes Quits is what it has to be. I suspect that you and I wont ever agree on this issue and thats totally fine. That's the reason I like these boards. To see different viewpoints presented in a respectful manner.
I'm gonna go even further out on a limb and present another viewpoint. I am a Christian in my beliefs and practices and I frequently see references to the marriage convenant with God and the vows taken as reasons to recover defunct marriages. Thats all fine and good. But what about the marriages between people who dont believe in God? Is it okay for them to split since they didnt make that solemn vow? Their divorce would be more like a bad business deal gone wrong and eventually split. What about the marriages that occurred before a judge and not in a church, what if they come from a different religion or culture? I dont mean to trivialize marriages or wedding ceremonies, but I do think that often times we (as a people) impose our ideas on situations where they may not necessarily be applicable.
I do prefer the marriage builder's concept and advice that JAR mentioned in his thread about being more pro-happiness than pro-marriage. Not that people should behave carelessly in the name of "seeking personal happiness", but sometimes, for some people their current marriage will never provide that for them. It doesnt have to be any affair involved.
Should a person be content with living in a marriage that honors their vows but gives no personal satisfaction. Arent they entitled to the feeling we all get when we think of our spouse, how we look forward to their company at the end of the day. Or maybe have a spouse that appreciates them? Its really hard to change another person to meet our needs, if that person isnt ready or is unwilling to change. We could guilt, scare or cajole someone into change, but I'd much prefer to know someone is with me because they actually want to be, and not because I used guilt or guerilla tactics to force to be with me. JMHO

We all know that divorce can have adverse effects on children that follow them into their adult lives, but lets not forget about those families that stuck it out and the kids may have been better off if the parents had split amicably.
Of course, counseling and therapy could help a lot of situations and I'm all for it. But I think it takes more that one persons effort to save a marriage and save a family. Now if that one person can convince the other to change, then kudos for them. But if after all reasonable attempts are made and their met with resistance, I wouldnt want to sacrifice the "good partner's" sanity all in the name of bringing the other back.

Tanelornpete

I'd like to add a few comments on your post, Rosado - if you don't mind...

You wrote:

The word 'defunct' means 'no longer in existence, or no longer functioning' - its a meaningless term in the context of marriage: even a marriage that has gone very bad is still functioning - maybe not is the right way, but the marriage is a contract, a vow, a promise made between two people that is in effect till one of them dies. The contract is not over.

There is one exception to a Christian marriage: if one partner commits adultery and the other partner decides to divorce (Matthew 19:9.) Unless that happens, the marriage is in existence, hence negating the first phrase of the definition of 'defunct.' The word that I think best fits this situation is 'damaged' or 'harmed' (cf "...vows taken as reasons to recover damaged marriages..")

As such, there are a couple of reasons why this is especially important for Christians:

1) "...Whatever your lips utter you must be sure to do, because you made your vow freely to the LORD your God with your own mouth..." (Deuteronomy 23:23).

2) Making a vow and then refusing to honor it indicates that you lied when you made the vow. Your vow must be 'yes' or 'no' (Matthew 5:37). That is why we hold that making promises, giving vows, taking oaths, etc., is such an important thing. Christians are to honor God, and as John 8:44 points out, lying is the opposite.

As a Christian, you are aware of the answer already!:

"...If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him....

But if the unbeliever leaves, let him do so. A believing man or woman is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace..."

(From 1 Corinthians 7.) Pretty clear there.

I don't think you are trivializing anything at all! The Christian scriptures don't make a requirement to stand before a church. That's a tradition. What makes a marriage is the fact that two people stand in front of a group of witnesses and make a public declaration of commitment, for life. Traditionally some authority figure officiates the ceremony, but the focus is on the vow - it is a public declaration of intent, witnessed.

As for marriages between religions, or cultures: see the above passage from 1 Corinthians 7.

Note one: NO one provides happiness for someone else. That is a very common misunderstanding. Happiness is an individual perception, it is a choice that you make. NO one can make another happy (nor unhappy.) You can cause pain, but everything else is perception, it is interpretation - it is an intellectual exercise. Something happens, you interpret it, and then react (according to your interpretation.)

Christian view:

"...I am not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need, and I know what it is to have plenty. I have learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. I can do everything through him who gives me strength..."

Otherwise (and along with):

Communicate this need to your spouse! Work with them to improve things! In nearly every case I've ever seen, the problems that lie along this line are based in a lack of proper communication.

How does one derive the idea that we are 'entitled' to certain feelings, as opposed to others? Those feelings are PREFERABLE, they are much more pleasant, its nice to have them - but 'entitled'? How is it determined that we are OWED these feelings. I am curious as to the philosophical and/or moral - ethical derivation.

Remember that FEELINGS (that is, emotions) are the RESULT of a previous interpretation of an event. Emotions are a reaction to something that you think. You are responsible for them - you create them (even if sometimes subconsciously) - other people do not 'make' you feel. Hence, even if you were entitled to a feeling - you owe it to yourself, no one else owes it!

In fact, it is impossible to change another person. But what if that other person isn't 'ready' to change? Does this mean that won't in the future? What about your responsibility to your spouse to find out WHY they are unwilling? Marriage is work, it is not a magical kingdom handed to you on silk pillows. It seems to me that if you find yourself with a spouse that is 'unwilling' to change - is it safe to assume you are unwilling to look for new ways to get through to them?

Sometimes it requires a scare to wake someone up. This happens in all fields of human experience: ever heard of someone finding out about a possible medical condition - which scares them - which THEN motivates them to act in a healthy fashion?

Sure, it may be really nice to have your mate always be there, wanting to work - but if people were to adopt your method here, affairs would be the rule, and there would be no means of recovering your marriage - you'd be advised to wait and see if your affair bound spouse may someday turn around and come back to you. And yet, according to even more of your advice, a person would be unhappy with this waiting for their spouse to someday want to be with them - and the advice would be to free yourself because you are owed happiness, and that debt will be paid by someone else rather than your spouse - so divorce would be the only, necessary and automatic advice that could be sanely offered. And yet, there are people on this site who actively advise this. But I will never do so. I believe that it's worth a little hard effort to create a good marriage.

In other words, there is a chance that if the divorce had happened, the kids may have been better off...

Why base the idea of divorce on the possibility of a chance? How about reversing the view that people MUST be instantly, always happy - and instead concentrate on what the kids can learn:

When obstacles rear their heads:

do you turn and run, or do you find a way to overcome them?

Are promises made to be kept as long as their conditions exist, or are they simply temporary arrangements until things get uncomfortable?

What do you teach your kids?

It surely does. But it most often takes ONE person to get through to the other person so that they then can turn and face the same direction. No one (I repeat) NO one, is arguing that one person can save a marriage. A marriage is built of two people.

I cannot offer arguments in support of all the various methods of recovery advocated, but I will note that both the Marriage Builder's concepts and the ones we use at Affaircare fully fulfill your statement. See the work on Plan A or on the Carrot & Stick steps in the recovery programs. These things are done on a temporary basis, and there are still other steps after these (see Plan B or the Consequences stages, etc.)

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LuvMyH

Rosado,
Re: reconciling marriages that may not have begun on a foundation of love.

I can tell you from my own personal experience that it's possible for two people to marry for all the wrong reasons, spend years in a loveless marriage and fall in love with each other while recovering from infidelity.

It's easy to disconnect from your spouse and not see the growth and changes that occur over the years until you receive a big wakeup call. It happened to my husband and me. We neglected each other and our marriage to the point that it was dormant. It's not anymore.

When I discovered my H had been unfaithful, I left him. He asked me to come back home. When I did, the minute we looked each other in the eyes, it was like years of apathy melted away and we fell in love. We just celebrated our 11th anniversary and it's been almost a year and a half since DDay and this has been the best year of our marriage. Considering what we've worked through, I find it pretty amazing. I just wanted you to know that even marriages that don't start out like fairy tales can turn around and evolve into happiness. We even look forward to seeing each other at the end of the day, now. Who knew?
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Hopefaithlove

I might copy and paste what you said and put it on my fridge...I am finally understanding, love and marriage is not based on the movies '50 first dates' and 'Made in Heaven'. I'm not 100% there but almost. Thanks for sharing that I'm so happy for you and your husband. I pray God Blesses your marraige a thousand times.