What to do when they won't come clean?

cao428 · 06-27-2008, 06:51 PM

Hello everyone,

If your spouse has been cheating and lies on top of lies and will not admit it, what do you do if you have no proof, but you know in your heart? A therapist told me I should ask him to leave unless he comes clean. She said unfortunatly that is what it is going to take and then at that point we can begin to work on the marriage. I am afraid he will not come back if I do this, but I don't know if we will make it if I don't.

I am stuck. I love him more than I can say and we have 26 years together and two wonderful older children, one at home in HS. Any help will be appreciated.

LostandAlone · 06-27-2008, 10:55 PM

What type of things make you so sure that he is cheating? What kind of lies is he telling and how did you know he was lying? That makes a difference but I'm assuming your therapist wouldn't go out on a limb and suggest you kick him out if they weren't pretty sure too.

My wife has been lying to me too about an emotional affair she has been having so I know where you are coming from and it sucks. I keep getting to the point where I'm ready to give up but just can't even though that may be the only way to get her to stop. I'm afraid she will just say fine and go along. That however is the tricky part because if they are willing to let you go or in your case "will not come back" then how much do they really care about the marriage?

cao428 · 06-28-2008, 01:09 AM

Hello LostandAlone,

You are right about that. What the counselor said was that if they are out on their own because you have drawn the line and will not accept their lies and deceipt anymore, that they will reconsider and understand what they are losing and only then come to remorse.

I did not heed her advice so now I am in limbo and only hearing more lies. I know my husband was cheating because he was working in China for a year, making good money. I went to visit him with my daughter and he "was different" to me. I sensed it, and later I found a photo in his wallet hidden under his license of a younge Chinese woman (20 years old..he is 53) I found many other signs as well but the biggest thing was the way he was responding to me in the bedroom...no interest and avoiding intamacy. It was a big change from the usual for a sexually active man through the whole 26 years together.

LIES:

The morning after I confronted him with the photo and a piece of paper in his wallet I had found with the writing on it "dream touching your face sleeping on my bosom" and her phone number on the other side, I asked him to burn it in front of me. He responded that I took it the night before...so it disappeared and he lied as I didn't take them. (I SHOULD have...what an idiot!)

A week later after telling me he would agree to work on the marriage he sent her a $200 VISA card (I caught him by finding the receipts for her address sent by DHL and the VISA card purchase) He told me it was to close up his office over there and ship things back (fax machine, laptop, clothes) which he promised me he would do because I told him if he ever went to China again we would be done. He said she did things for him, (I BET she did!) and he thought I would go nuts and so was avoiding a confrontation.. (he had a makeshift office for a business he started) He then told me the VISA card he sent her was a "temporary" one and that he had the "permanent" one. I then checked at the place he purchased it since I saw the receipts and there is no such thing...a VISA gift card is just that...no temp card with it.

So after him promising me to be a changed husband and "start fresh" with the marriage, I am starting on lies. The therapist, and a very experienced one I must add said he has been living two lives. I have been working on changing myself and have always been a good wife I feel. But I am not perfect by any means and know I can change, and that there is always two sides. I feel I must have done something wrong to have this happen, but where he travels all of the time for his work, it is not healthy for the marriage.
Now I am questioning whether he is really breaking it off with her because he sent her this money, and with the last lie I think it was just another one on top of another.

justean · 06-28-2008, 07:22 AM

i actually believe when a hubby works away, there is no doubt about it, they live 2 lives.
i can give a situation, but its not a couple. my nan (rip) and i thought alot of her. well for the last 15 years of her life, she left where we live to go to liverpool. its about a 4 hr drive from us in wales.
but never the less and this was just my nan, but we all noticed the changes.
we would go to see her at different intervals. n e way, she would tell you how bad the family up there would treat her and we were appalled. never visited, would drive past her home etc etc.
then when she would come down here, she would backlash the family again from liverpool in a nastier way.
however when she went back home, she would tell them how bad we all treated her.
talk about a double header and having two lives.
n e way she was diagnosed with cancer and two weeks b 4 she dies, she had a little holiday , only a hotel , but none of our family down here were invited.infact we did not even know, until her funeral. it was all the liverpool lot that got invited.
so our family all travel to liverpool. well at her funeral it was the strangest of funeral. it was like one big family, but with a massive divide. i actually blame my nan for that. whenever we went to see her , we never mixed with family up there because she said they did not want us . but the only person that knew the truth and what she was doing was the one in the middle (nan)
i know that an odd story, but i suppose my morel in this, is the only person that lied was my nan. the one that knew the truth was my nan. and the fact that ppl can live two lives. but you wil never know the whole truth. lies dont stop - hes told to many of them.
and you will never know what kind of person he has made you out to be. half the time wedding bands come of easy.
its only what your prepared to put up with.

LostandAlone · 06-28-2008, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cao428

Hello LostandAlone,

You are right about that. What the counselor said was that if they are out on their own because you have drawn the line and will not accept their lies and deceit anymore, that they will reconsider and understand what they are losing and only then come to remorse.

I did not heed her advice so now I am in limbo and only hearing more lies.

This is so hard. From what I'm reading you and I sound very much alike in how we deal with our spouses and ourselves. It's true that the only way they will understand what they are losing is to actually face the reality of losing it however, for people like you and me it's just so hard to take the chance of being the one to send them away. In my case separation isn't really an option so my only choice is to start the divorce process and hope that is the taste of reality she needs. To be honest it probably wouldn't bother her if we could separate because then she would be free to carry the affair without anyone looking over her shoulder. The same may be true with your husband.

Quote:

I found many other signs as well but the biggest thing was the way he was responding to me in the bedroom...no interest and avoiding intimacy. It was a big change from the usual for a sexually active man through the whole 26 years together.

I again can relate. Loss of intimacy is almost always a symptom of someone having an affair. Even when my wife is affectionate it seems forced. Basically their intimate feelings are currently with someone else. It stinks but makes sense that it would happen.

Quote:

I told him if he ever went to China again we would be done.

I told myself the same thing, that if my wife ever went back to the state where he lives that would be it.....but now she has started dropping hints that her sister who lives in the same state as him keeps bothering her to go and visit. I am sure she would use it as an opportunity to see him and most likely consummate the affair if they didn't already however, now I am thinking that the only way for this to end is for her to be away from me which she never likes and hopefully see that he's not all she's built him up to be. Not to mention a lot of guilt thrown in. Unfortunately for both you and I, this may be our only chance to save the marriage however it will be damn near impossible to sit by and let it happen.

Quote:

The therapist, and a very experienced one I must add said he has been living two lives.

I think that is part of the excitement people get from having an affair.

Quote:

I have been working on changing myself and have always been a good wife I feel. But I am not perfect by any means and know I can change, and that there is always two sides. I feel I must have done something wrong to have this happen

This is where we are even more similar. My wife like most people having an affair try to push the blame on to the other person. This makes them feel less guilty and makes you stop focusing on their behavior. The truth is no one is perfect and there is no one to blame but them. This is a hard one for me because I know I'm not a perfect husband and like to take the blame because then I have some control, but the truth is that there is only 1 person responsible for the affair and that is them. Did we maybe make them vulnerable to one? Probably but it was their choice alone to stray from the marriage and they know it.

Quote:

Now I am questioning whether he is really breaking it off with her because he sent her this money, and with the last lie I think it was just another one on top of another.

My wife has never admitted to the affair, she uses the "just friends" lie and "he lives 2000 miles away, what am I going to do" cover. Regardless of how obvious it is that there is much more to it, if you can't 100% prove it they will exploit that to their advantage.

I am not the best person for giving advice on this topic as I have not been able to stay strong and do what I know I have to however, I can say truthfully that as long as the other man or woman only exist through phone calls, emails or text messages, they will stay perfect in our spouses minds while we in our anger and sadness "push them away"

Good luck cao428, keep us updated.

cao428 · 06-28-2008, 10:36 AM

Yes my husband uses the "just friends" line too about her. It's hard to stay strong when we are in torment, and I know what you are going through!

I have been going to the club to work out, but after the last lie just before he left about the gift visa card, I got depressed and so stopped going. I am going to try to pick that up again because it will make me feel better. Can you exercise in anyway? It will help the stress some. I also found music extremely helpful as some kind of therapy.

I know what you mean about how they view the other person. We are the ones who have been wronged and are unhappy and angry as a result. We are the victims..but we have to try not to focus on those negative thoughts as hard as it is. It's not easy!

827Aug · 06-29-2008, 08:03 AM

Hi cao428!

I wish I could offer some advice, but I've got the same problem as you. Our counselor has taken a different route. He says only ask my husband something once and accept his explanation. He says over time, my husband will start to open up. Well, that isn't working either. You can see how successfull that has been, if you read my post under "I'm Losing Patience".

Your therapist advocates a stronger and more direct approach. I'm not sure that will work either. If he moves out because of his secrets, it will actually be benefiting him. My husband moved out several months ago. My lawyer says he moved out to have greater freedom. This is how he can cheat and not have to hide it and lie. This is one place where I feel the divorce lawyer is ahead of the counselor.

Hang in there! I feel your pain. I, too, have been in a long-term marriage. I don't want to walk away either. However, I don't know how much more of the torture and cruelty I can take. Each time a piece of "evidence" hits me in the face, I end up crying the whole day. The rejection just gets to be too much.

cao428 · 06-29-2008, 01:09 PM

Hi 827Aug!

It sounds like your counselor isn't giving you the right advice. Of course even though I think mine did, I didn't do what she said. Mine was actually Dr. Ellen Kreidman. I did a phone session with her for $75 for 1/2 hour. She is very direct and strong and has been on tv. But you CAN get a one time free email counsel with her if that helps.
Marriage Counseling - Marriage Problems Solved Without Marriage Counseling

She told me that only when I told him he was done and I was going for a divorce and threw him out would he possibly turn around. She said if he didn't well then maybe I didn't want him anyway.

Instead, I told him that I still believed something happened over in China last year, but I was willing to let it go if he promised to be a better husband to me and I in turn would be a better wife to him, and we could start fresh. I bought the tapes Light his fire on Amazon for $20 (cassettes) used, and Light her fire for him for the same instead of th CDs off of Dr. Ellen's website for $109 each. He agreed to the deal and said he's listen to the tapes. He was definitely nicer to me and we started to get intimate again, took a dance lesson together, and then he left on another 30-day job on the west coast (not in China)

On the way to the airport he told me another lie about the VISA card he sent to China (I believe I already wrote about that) and then I discovered the $3000 cash he had in an envelope was gone from his gun safe. My daughter and I are planning a trip out to see him in July and last night he called me to discuss the money and how much it is going to cost. His company is paying for the room while he is working, but then he gets dne mid-week while we are there and the room is expensive ($200 night). Money is tight for us and so I don't really have any money. I had thought maybe he took the cash with him to spend on our vacation. And so I asked him if he had any cash and he replied "Just a few 100 dollars" I said, "you don't have any cash left over from your China trip?" and he responded "Nope". And so the lies keep coming. For all I know he could have sent money over to her or paid for her to fly over and stay with him before I come for a few weeks!

So he continues to lie to me. Now I am just trying to think of what to do. Now I don't believe anything he says, and I think he was just nicer to me to appease me. Now I question whether he is still carrying on the affair. Maybe I'll change my flight and show up early to surprise him..I need to catch him.

I am glad you found your evidence. At least now you know the truth for sure. I am still wondering but I am also wondering how I can live with a man whom is so deceiptful. I deserve so much more than this, and you do too.

Let us know how you make out at the counselor and I will keep you updated.

827Aug · 06-29-2008, 03:43 PM

I'm really not sure there is a correct approach handling our situation. We may have to try different things. From the posts I'm seeing on this forum, I think we may be in the minority--where our spouses continue to deny and lie (and never come clean). At least I now have concrete proof on my spouse (and he still denies it). I hope you find the proof you need to put your mind at ease.

A friend made an interesting comment today and I think I'll share it. She said the fact that my husband goes to great lengths to hide his affairs tells her something. She says he still loves me. She feels that he would be more open if he didn't love me. I'm just thinking he is a selfish coward!

My brothers have a different take on this and tell me I should have ended the marriage when all of this started. They are annoyed at me for putting up with all of this crap for so long. That being said, I'm probably going to file for divorce. I am going to give him one last chance though. I'm giving him a nice written request. The topic from our last marriage counseling sessions will be the request--"What I Want From You".
1) A serious commitment to SAVE our marriage

2) Honesty
a) stop ALL contact with your girlfriends
b) give me access to all of your private accounts--
bank, credit cards, brokerage, e-mail,etc.
c) provide a copy of your current credit report
d) move out of your apartment since it gives you way
too much freedom.

I'm 90 percent sure he will reject that request, so I know what I've got to do then.

cao428 · 06-29-2008, 10:54 PM

I certainly do not want to hear you have to go through a divorce, but am so glad you are standing up for yourself! You are demanding complete transparency but have it spelled out. I love it!

I had to laugh at the second paragraph! LOL! I agree, but they do not want to lose their "comfort zone and financial status" He might still love you and if he does maybe this plan will turn things around for you...I hope so!

My husband has a lot to lose if we split. I take care of EVERYTHING while he works away for usually 1-2 month jobs, except for last year when he worked in China for 12 months. We have a real estate business as well that takes a lot of watching over. He would be LOST without me for those reasons, so yes I do think he loves me even if he has a young girlfriend over there whom has been taking care of things for him. I just wish I knew the extent of his emotional involvement. It could be nothing, or it could be huge. He could have sent the $200 VISA card with a letter to break it off and thank her, or he could have sent it to keep it going. I have NO IDEA...which is difficult.

I am so glad you made that list of things for the ultimatum (I might use that list if you don't mind), and I agree we are a minority as most spouses seem to fess up. I have no proof which makes it difficult, but I DO have his lies I can call him on and can say I cannot live with this deceipt and that this is NOT a part of being a better husband as he promised to be.

Good luck 827Aug!!!! Keep in touch!

827Aug · 06-30-2008, 06:59 AM

Hi cao,

You are more than welcome to use my list.

We have something else in common too. We both keep our husbands' business going. Mine is clueless as to what to do with the actual business side of things. That's one reason ours is in such a mess. In 2006 when all of my husband's bad behavior began, he said he could run it just fine without me. He was so nasty too me and also told me I was a complete failure as a business manager. At least everyone was paid and some of the things were even paid in advance. Our net income from the previous year was over $300,000. Anyway, my self-esteem couldn't take his criticism. To make a long story short, I left him with the business for six months and came back to a disaster. He is now $700,000 in the hole and I've been having a tough time gaining any ground it. We are still "liquid" and I think our business could be saved. However, to save the business, I believe our marriage would have to be saved first. He just doesn't get it.

I wish I could offer more help with the issue of your husband and the Chinese lady. At least there is plenty of distance between them now. With that being said, perhaps the distance factor will ruin what they have going on. However, if he is cheating, he'll possibly find someone else. When your husband goes out of the country to work, do you know where he is going? Or does he just TELL you where he is going?

cao428 · 06-30-2008, 09:20 AM

Hi 827Aug,

Yes he tells me where he is going but I told him no more jobs in China or we are done..I don't know if he is still in contact with her, only that he sent her that letter and money.

Our business is failing too...because he is never here to attend to it. We have apts. and most are vacant either because they need renovation or for other reasons. sounds so similar to yours too because I used to pay all of the bills for them and handle the finances, and he critisized me too, even though everything was paid and I also cleaned up our credit. I decided not to do it so we hired a management company and they have been doing a lousey job. We terminated them so now I will be taking it over again

I have been working full time plus micro-managing the management company which I had to do because of their sloppiness. We had frozen pipes last winter because they didn't check to see if there was oil in the tank..among many other things.

If they lose us they will regret it...it will be interesting to see what happens. Take care!

LostandAlone · 06-30-2008, 02:04 PM

Having a hard time myself today. We had a good weekend but she is still very guarded and intimacy is still lacking. My biggest issue is that I don't know how much of her distance is being caused by the EA, her depression or my past "mistakes". Compared to both of your husbands I think I'm a saint

however I know I'm not perfect. The question is how much blame do I take? There is no doubt that there are some things that she told me were important that I didn't do enough to change or fix however I feel like the walls she put up are a bit extreme.

cao428 · 06-30-2008, 07:12 PM

Hi Lostand Alone,

You are NOT ALONE..I am having a bad day too. There are always things that we could have done better, but you are only human and it is not your fault that she is having the EA..nor mine that my husband did or is. Their choice to go outside of the nest. Do not blame yourself. You are doing every thing you can to save the marriage..I feel for you because I know how you feel..

I keep thinking about what I am going to say to him next time I see him...because he broke the agreement to start fresh and be a better husband by telling more lies. A good husband doesn't lie. He also changed the address his bank statements are sent to so I couldn't see them.

I like 827Aug's idea of making an "ultimatum list" of things they need to do. The therapist I called on the phone said to tell him "I am not the one that had the affair, you did, you made the choice"

No matter what it still hurts. I think when my husband was all emotional the day I walked out the door and called me he was hurting because he was thinking he would have to end it with her. He wasn't that lovey dovey with me when I came home..

Are you going to counseling still?

827Aug · 07-01-2008, 10:16 AM

Well, I gave my husband the list yesterday along with a nice note saying that I loved him but was tired of the cruelty. He didn't take it well at all. He is mad! Unfortunately, I've got to work with him again today--I'm trying to prepare myself for another emotionally draining day. I'm also dreading the couseling session tomorrow; it isn't going to be pretty either. My husband keeps telling the counselor that I've always been too controlling. And the counselor agrees with him somewhat. However, I'm not the one who has the affairs and can't manage money. Due to those reasons, I feel my actions are justified.