WDG

Dude I'm calling you on that. You either knew things were decaying or you were totally checked out. People don't shift from happy to divorce. You have to start owning this.

Posted via Mobile Device

marga88

Give her time, the more you force yourself, the more she backs out. I hope things will turn out well for you in the end.

disbelief

OK I think that was my abridged statement via mobile. We had our roughest time over the summer. Extended disagreement and began counseling but when d day came and the time frames were revealed not by my wife other sources. It turns out the EA began long before there were any signs of her being distant or off beat in fact during said time frame we were getting along quite well or so I thought. Things only got tense over the summer and I thought it was because of the disagreement.
Last night I said to the effect please don't tell me you have not been unhappy going back 5 years? She had an odd body language response no verbal. Our youngest is not 6 yet. So how messed is that. If you ask someone if they are ok and they say yes it means yes. If you treat them well, compliment them do the occaisional little thing to show them you care, remind them how much you love them everyday, just the way they are, keep a happy home with the normal disagreements and you never hear I am unhappy I do not like ____________...... Because the things she did complain about I fixed, not on her schedule because we r different but I did. We have had alot of life changes in the last 5 years. Am i perfect no did I do things she did not like yes. When i figured it out or she finally spoke up I stopped. But overall we seldom argued would discuss issues come to a resolution. She mostly got whatever she wanted, we were a team we would say hey can I__________? Very seldom next to never did I feel so strongly I said no.

She never never said I am unhappy Are you Ok was always yes, Lets go out on a weekend was always I don't want kids with a sitter or to bother a relative. Now it's we did not go out enough. If she had ever straight up even once said i am unhappy i would have been all over that. She says she hinted and the hints were in the form of can you help clean up _____________...

Like i said i wasn't perfect neither was she but there was no sign she was at that point especially with the who it turned out to be. I thought we were having an extended argument. She took the relationship on a path and left us me and the kids behind and looking back at least one shopping day rings a bell of oddness and she was out I was home with kids so.........I guess thats a venting

At least a year prior to this all would be the exception we had an argument I said lets go to counseling she absolutly refused.

The things she has actually complained about now i have acknowledged, some i had already changed 6-12 months or longer ago. The others keeping on top of. She still is in the negative negative of our M and that roller coasters also. OM and W kept good game faces in front of me all summer. Know OM all to well.

WDG

ok DB ... that's better, but you need to straighten yourself up.

1. own this crap, completely. not take blame, just ownership.
2. stop talking about the past, it'll just beat you like nothing else.

Open your ears and your heart to her when she talks. Let the pain come if it has to, but just LISTEN for once. Don't try to say anything. Ask questions. Think about what she's telling you. Internalize it if you want to, or not. Accept her for who and what she is, just like you did when you first met her.

DB good luck with this man. Get your head on straight. I can't speak with authority because I personally did everything wrong up until now, but I think the fact that I did that and it's still limping along is proof that you can do ANYTHING. I did all the crazy **** suggested in this thread for example ..... stupid crazy ****. .

seeking sanity

disbelief - it's entirely likely that you didn't do anything "wrong". She may have had needs you weren't meeting, which she didn't/wouldn't communicate, she may have felt sad/distant/unloved, etc, but you also aren't a mind reader. It's normal to replay your life to try and make sense of it.

My wife, now, tells me that I didn't really do anything wrong, though at the time and through the subsequent number of years she held on to many resentments that sound like what your wife is saying. She let them build up and held on to every negative thing I'd said to her over our 16 years together. When OM came along, she felt validated and attractive and confident in a way she couldn't feel with me.

At least at first. During our second separation, when the luster of OM had worn off and she was truly single... a single mom, trying to date, and manage a household without being propped up constant attention from OM, or from me (during our first reconciliation), she started to realize I wasn't that bad. She started to understand that this whole thing was about her perceptions and that not communicating to me was more her doing than my failings.

But like you, I'm painfully aware of my shortcomings and what I did to contribute to this mess.

The point is that taking or assigning blame for relationship things is a dead end. However, the affair is a deliberate choice to deceive that has totally muddled her thinking. She may never think clearly about you again. She may always hide behind her rewriting of your maritial history. It's dependent on her willingness to be really honest with herself.

You can model that to her, but you can't control how she'll turn out.

That's why you can only work on yourself and your own happiness.

disbelief

Seeking, your points are dead on in my case. She stopped talking about certain things because she did not like how I was responding but never communicated that instead she just stopped. Yes I have/had/will have faults. We all do. She may have checked out a couple years ago or it is the rewriting because we had some good happy times the last couple years.
It almost seems like it's EA/PS coupled by midlife crisis and ILYBNILY
She is slowly dropping remarks taking responsibility for her end of the situation. Thinking back even in a normal disagreement she would have trouble admitting when she was wrong so this would be the extreme.
I will take in all the advice, try to apply it when it fits a scenario. Hopefully she is not closed off to me completly.

Thanks

disbelief

WDG,
Thnx, Yeah I am bad at the just listen thing have improved but needs improvement still. A couple days mostly alone then she works 4 so pretty much won't see her so maybe this will help. However I suspect that she will not change her ming about finding a place.

Affaircare

You know, I think there are a lot of things being said here that are being said "one way" and being heard "another way" so I want to reiterate and maybe re-explain some things.

#1--I can't speak for him, but I believe when 8years said "Back Off" he didn't mean "please be a doormat and let your cheating spouse treat you any way she feels like" because that's a disaster. But so is chasing someone around like a needy puppy constantly picking open a wound! Constantly clinging and wanting to have "relationship talks" is not going to fix this, nor will it make her want to stay in the marriage.

When we say "back off" what we mean is more like this--put yourself in your wife's shoes. You made a gigantic, huge, costly mistake. You got caught and now feel like a heel. Part of the time you cry because you did such an awful thing and now everyone knows; the rest of the time you scream at people because you are defending yourself and don't want to be reminded all the time! She made the choice--that's true--and it is reasonable for her to experience the consequences. But what will catch her eye and be helpful is two things: 1) Showing some confidence in yourself and 2) Expressing some care for her like a best friend--connecting like that as if you value her (knowing that the connecting as lovers will grow out of that friendship and caring).

On her side, she has all the puzzle pieces and she sees the whole picture--and all at the same time it makes her sick but she also misses it! It made her feel cared for! You, on the other hand, only have a piece here and a piece there, and you can't see the whole picture. You keep struggling to see the whole picture. So share that analogy with her and let her know that now you get it--that giving you more pieces hurts her because she has to look at the picture again. But at the same time, not having the whole picture hurts you. Then propose that you two reach an agreement that would work for both of you: you agree to ask her only ONE question a day, and she agrees to answer that ONE question fully and honestly. Then tomorrow you two could agree on how long to ask the questions (maybe 30 days or 60 days). That way she knows it won't be an ongoing Inquisition or feel like an interrogation, and at the same time you'll feel like she's not avoiding you or being dishonest.

#2--I do realize this is a hard concept to grasp, but when she says she hasn't been happy for 5 years, there are two things happening there all-at-once. There is a kernel of truth in that statement--but it is also likely somewhat re-written so she can justify to herself why she would commit adultery. After all, if someone is in misery and long-suffering "for years" or their spouse was "abusive"...why then it's okay right? So there's truth there but it's like magnified.

I'll give you an example. Your daughter is not quite 6 you say, but she says she's been unhappy for 5 years. So not too long after your daughter was born, she wanted to return to work and you wanted her to be a SAHM. She didn't really want that, but didn't really let you know that she felt like that because what kind of mom doesn't want to stay at home? So she agrees...but her heart is a little resentful. As each day goes by, she feels more and more trapped, more and more cut off, lonely, and frustrated because she "doesn't love her own child like she ought to." Even adding one blade of grass every day will eventually, in five years, become a pile of grass! So she it's not like she was miserable enough to say something, but at the same time it was like slowly boiling under the surface.

THEN your daughter goes to kindergarten and she gets a little PT job! Huzzah! She gets to get out a little and not feel too guilty and she feels a little bit good. And someone at work appreciates her work. A man. Then she notices him and decides she'll work EXTRA HARD for him...and maybe dress up just a little. At the same time, you keep pressuring her to quit her little job and she doesn't really WANT to! So she yells, you two fight...and she's comparing the OM who's complimenting her and telling her how GREAT she is, to you who's fighting with her and telling her to stop doing something that makes her feel good. That doesn't go on very long until she begins to say to herself, "You know...I've been miserable for years! Why am I putting up with this?"

See how there's a kernel of truth in that example? She should have told you the truth and said, "I really do not want to stay home. I feel too cut off and lonely here" but she didn't, did she? And as it grew and boiled under the surface she should have been transparent and respectfully requested some change to meet her needs--right? But at the same time, when she did try, you didn't know and you'd work long hours, leave her home alone with all the housework, not say thank you (after all, if she washes your clothes, she's not your servant!), and yell about it or make her feel guilty (or whatever) ...

AND THAT is the kernel of truth. See it? That is the stuff you need to own and say, "Yep that was me. She needs someone to sit an hour or two a night and talk to her!" and then make the time to do that for her.

__________________
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at Affaircare.

The 180 * Coping With Infidelity Newbies--Please read this!

disbelief

Affaircare,
Understood, Thank You.
I have heeded your advice from past posts and i am not clinging. In the first couple weeks i was so rt there that I think she is expecting that. Now I will not go out of my way to say hi like pre d day when i would welcome her home open arms. When we eventually cross paths in the hous we exchange hellos. She is much more stand offish with me. Alot of the rest of what you said I can apply o my sith as well. Thanks again more to learn for me.

disbelief

So Blueeyes what would you from your position recomend for posotive interactions? Compliments? The casual touch to remind her I am there for her, shoulder pat on back etc? Hug if she needs/wants? She is soooooooo closed off. Distant. She doesn't jump at my touch like weeks ago and has actually hugged back.

Does the power of touch come into play here?

After she stayed away those couple of nights she came back without mentioning it and without me asking. She said the other night she was feeling less welcome here i told her that is because she is spending so much time out of the house. I reminded her she was still welcome. It's painful I do not like the situation but I genuinely care. And it just hit me that if she absolutley needed out she does actually have an option just not her #1 way to do it.

I miss my wife our family life as it was.

F-102

Seems that she is only beginning to realize the real situation. For years, she never told you things weren't so great. But like most women, she didn't realize that when you say to a man that everythings okay, he takes your word for it. Men simply do not have the telepathy that women have to understand that "Everything's fine" really means "I SAY that it's fine, but I want you to talk with me until you can figure out what the problem is."
It may, or may not, have dawned on her that for years she had opportunities to make things better, but she blew it.
It sounds like maybe the best-not the only-way to make her realize this is to let her get a place. It will probably be a case of her finding out-the hard way-that the old saying of "Be careful what you wish for..." is way too true.

disbelief

102 Sadly especially for my kids i am starting to sway this way. She is very short with me on the phone, however and she knows i look at the phone record. She spent 20 min on the phone with OM this AM. Granted right now they are about 500 mile apart and she is with all the children that does not make it better. I am not quite sure how to handle this the kids being my number 1 priority i want her in the house for Christmass. They both say it is over. But she is not over it. OM continues to tell his spouse he wants to work it out. This is so high school, I can't stand it. Things to do here.

disbelief

Tanelornpete and Affaircare, in your experience if the WW need some sort of closure is it ever beneficial to ignore the knowlege of those contacts? Should I ask her to please tell me before i discover it? I would prefer no contact as I am sure would OM spouse. But in my W's current state of mind I do not think she is up for that disclosure I think she would shut down even more. There is another logical reason for a phone call at the time it occurred but those reasons i do not want to post. But that reason would need to be cut off OM could find someone else to call, if it is why the call was made.


So should I bring up the call or just pocket it?
Should I just monitor the situation as a form of self defense?

For some reason this is becoming less painful when I think about the big D and me for my kids I cry.

Tanelornpete

Disbelief, your marriage day was the expression of closure. On THAT day you and your wife vowed to end it all with everyone else, and made that announcement public.

There is never a need for someone addicted to a drug to do it 'one last time' to say 'goodbye'. They need to quit. Period.

If there is to be any 'closure' it must be in the form of a No Contact letter that your wife writes, you read and approve, and then YOU mail. That is all.

You write that 'in your wife's current state of mind' you think she would shut down even more. Possibly. She will need some time to process and grieve. But just because she 'shuts down' does not infer permanence. It means you have time to work on yourself without fighting, etc. It means that she will have some time to observe you, to see how you've gotten stronger.

There is no reason for two cheating lovers to contact to one another. Ending contact is a consequence of cheating, and it is the best way to get help get past the 'addiction' between the two. Just like a drunk does not keep taking a shot on occasion 'for those special times' - so a cheater does not return to the one with whom they cheated.

My advice; stop making excuses for your wife's deplorable behavior!

seeking sanity

disbelief - you should tell the OM's wife, as she has a right to know. Don't be a wimp about this. Breaking no contact hurts his wife as much as it hurts you.

AffairCare has excellent articles on this. Read them both:

Seven Steps To Ending An Affair?

Sample Consequences Letters