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article on infidelity and thoughts on sex in marriage

19K views 240 replies 24 participants last post by  davecarter 
#1 ·
#3 ·
I found the article ridiculously short-sighted and ignorant about the actual marital issues that encompass infidelity.

As was stated, infidelity isn't just someone having sex in secret. That's ALL this guy seems to think infidelity encompasses... terribly IGNORANT to say the least.

Infidelity involves deception, disrespect, toxicity, STD risk, financial infidelity/waste of family funds, neglect etc

This guy writing this article is terribly ignorant about the actual details.

I get the distinct impression he hasn't done a shred of research on this topic and is just pulling this out of his behind.

Applying logic to a tunnel-view of a misconceived problem will NOT bear FRUIT.
 
#6 ·
The question raised is important. There are many aspects of marriage which a considered deal breakers. Things that many expect:

1) No physical abuse
2) No mental cruelty/abuse (outbursts of rage, shouting, swearing)
3) No degradation (undermining self confidence)
4) No lying
5) No quitting the marriage because of ill health
6) No addictions (gambling, porn, alcohol, drugs)
7) No failure to support family economically
8) No infidelity
9) No abandonment
10) No sexless

If a spouse failed on enough items in the list, it would be absurd for them to not see cheating as a possible consequence. From a moral point of view cheating is wrong. But if your married to a manipulative heroin addict who is not interested in sex and had abandoned his or her family by ending up in prison, would an affair be really unfair?
 
#7 ·
. But if your married to a manipulative heroin addict who is not interested in sex and had abandoned his or her family by ending up in prison, would an affair be really unfair?
It would be STUPID.

I have said this many times before.

The infidelity paradox still reigns here :

The only people worth having an affair with, would not have anything to do with an affair.

If you want to cheat, you are scraping the bottom of the barrel to do it.

You may as well just get a divorce, it would be far more mature, dignified, and less destructive.
 
#9 ·
I see a lot about people saying he doesn't know what he talks about. Forget him. Look just at the issues he raises and let's open a dialogue about them here where we tam'ers might have a better touch with the real world of infidelity.

I myself was not in any type of a sexless relationship. But I wouldn't be in one for long. Though I do think ID be much more susceptible to an affair if I was in a sexless relationship. ID stay thinking we will work it out, but it's like starving a person when they should get their food only from you. They may stay and try to work it out but they will be much more likely to be tempted when a fresh steak is wafted under their nose.

Much of my research has led me to the conclusion that the most dangerous assumption is that an affair only happens to a certain type of person, ie an immoral person or a person whom is mental in some way. What it states is that anyone can be susceptible to an affair under the right circumstances.
Which explains why so many bs say "I never thought she /he was the type to do this."

I fell into this trap and allowed my wife to go to slippery slopes, and she fell.

Though I will also agree there are those who are more likely to fall, but no one is immune.

Thoughts.?
 
#13 · (Edited)
I see a lot about people saying he doesn't know what he talks about. Forget him. Look just at the issues he raises and let's open a dialogue about them here where we tam'ers might have a better touch with the real world of infidelity. ...
I fell into this trap and allowed my wife to go to slippery slopes, and she fell.

Though I will also agree there are those who are more likely to fall, but no one is immune.

Thoughts.?
I really don't think there's much to discuss.

Either you maintain dignity and respect for

a. your spouse
b. your family
c. yourself

or you don't.

You either choose to

a. find a way to resolve your sexual differences with your spouse
b. find a way to resolve your sexual differences without your spouse

lying, sneaking around, and cheating is option b. I think we can all agree that promiscuous behavior brings toxicity into the home no one here would advocate? Can we agree that any kind of promiscuous behavior DOES have implications for the home that this moron in this article sidesteps? We read it every day here. Too bad that PhD [cough] didn't bother spending even ONE DAY on a marriage support forum or he would know that.

Promiscuous behavior is not a viable alternative to a fulfilling sex life.

It really is that simple.

This whole discussion is ridiculous in my opinion.

Resorting to promiscuous behavior to satisfy your sexual urges is akin to robbing a liquor store to pay your mortgage.

Sorry, but if you are short of cash, you would do best to find a way to pay your expenses without breaking the law.

What bugs me about this article is this moron has this idea that infidelity is an either-or situation.

It's not.

He has this idea in his head that you either

a. cheat
b. or go without

And he's oversimplified the discussion into those terms and examines the moral implications til he turns blue.

He's a philosopher I get it.

Here in the REAL world we examine ALL the implications, not just the ones that we find interesting from a philosophy standpoint.

If you value, respect, and maintain dignity for your spouse, family, and marriage, you will find a way to resolve your differences without resorting to sacrificing that respect and dignity you have for your spouse, family, and marriage.

You find a way to make it work within the marriage OR you file for divorce and exit the marriage, family, and relationship with yours and your spouse's dignity in tact.

If you accept that premise, his whole article is just a pointless discussion.
 
#10 ·
Good people have affairs, even though it is bad behavior. The desire for sex is an extremely powerful. Look at Tears. Obviously a very nice person. She was the single mother of two young daughters. Prior to her husband, who had had many partners before her, she had been a virgin.

A man she met while socializing in bar with friends got her phone number and the next she afternoon had she with him in his apartment. She felt guilty and after two or three days confessed to her husband, who consequently immediately left and divorced her.

She spend two sexless years alone, trying to get him back while he went through a string of women and drank too much.

There are probably many military wives who are not bad people. Their husband goes to Iraq and they make it through a two deployment. She learns to be independent. He comes back and is not the same person, neither is she. He is moody and depressed. She doesn't file for divorce because she wants to be loyal and repair their marriage. He gets deployed again. She feels relieved when he leaves. She has an affair. Divorce is put off because he is not there. I am not sure that you can divorce as easily when someone is on active duty abroad.

Sexless months could be a major factor in breaking such a marriage.
 
#15 ·
Here are the two questions the author postulates in the article :

1. Is an ongoing refusal to have sex with your spouse a betrayal similar to adultery?
2. Does a persistent absence of sex within a marriage excuse or justify going outside the marriage to get it?
NO. Not even a close call, on both counts. Can we all agree on that?

Discussion at this point is therefore moot.
 
#18 ·
I agree with you ESD.

If some man or woman has spouse with MS who is progressively crippled over a decade and sex has been off the table for a long time, they may not wish to divorce because they want to stay with their ill spouse until they die. MS can go faster or slower. So you work you butt off helping the ill spouse eat, bath, lie down, sit up, change the DVD, etc. And then what, no sex until they die?

Why not cheat out of the house in such as situation?

The MS afflicted spouse might be ok with it but not want to know. They might also not be ok with it.

The world is not black and white, as ESD points out.

Cheating is bad because it is violation of one of the most basic contract. The agreement between man and woman is so basic that it exists without words. The fact that there are wedding vows shows that fidelity is not enduring. So, civilization has created a formal contract to aid the bond.

Guess what? No fault divorce means that the vows are legally meaningless, a clear signal that cheating is more ok than it used to be. In the Old Testament cheaters got the death penalty. Just 50 years ago they were punished in divorce. Heck, even divorce was not permitted everywhere until relatively recently.

So the relativism of crimes against the marital contract has turned into a close horserace.

ESD,

Have you have philosophical discussions about the ethics fidelity with your ex?

As long she thinks she is winning you back does that give her life a kind of goal?

If you promise her fidelity, would she then feel empty?
 
#19 · (Edited)
I agree with you ESD.

If some man or woman has spouse with MS who is progressively crippled over a decade and sex has been off the table for a long time, they may not wish to divorce because they want to stay with their ill spouse until they die. MS can go faster or slower. So you work you butt off helping the ill spouse eat, bath, lie down, sit up, change the DVD, etc. And then what, no sex until they die?

Why not cheat out of the house in such as situation?
I think you guys need to clear up some confusion here.

There is a big difference between

a. an open marriage, negotiated with your spouse
b. a collusion-rife affair that violates the dignity of your entire home

You guys need to clarify exactly what you are or aren't advocating here.

To my mind infidelity is NOT something that can be negotiated with a spouse.

If you want to go outside the marriage, and you negotiate that with your spouse, your fidelity is left in tact. There is no infidelity taking place. You have an open marriage.

If you want to go outside the marriage, and you violate the dignity of your home to collude in secret, your fidelity is severely fractured at that point. There is no marriage taking place. You have a time bomb waiting to go off when they find out.

You guys really need to clear up what you are talking about.

Deception and disrespect are the key points of contention here, not getting laid.

If you want to go outside a marriage for sex, at least negotiate that with your spouse. Don't lie, cheat, and disrespect your spouse to do it. If you are even considering that, then get a divorce and have sex with other people in the honest daylight. You will find a much better class of sex partner that way.
 
#21 ·
Russel I think these guys have somehow lumped open marriage into the infidelity discussion. Which to my mind is a whole other subject.

I often see that happening. When people want to avoid looking bad about advocating infidelity they deceptively make it a case of open marriage instead.

To my mind there are no mitigating circumstances surrounding deception. You either put your spouse in the loop about where your junk will be going, or you don't. The former is an open marriage, the latter is collusion-rife promiscuity, cheating, and an indignity to your spouse.
 
#22 ·
Within the defined scope of the article, the author does raise good questions, questions certain irrational assumptions and logical inconsistencies about traditional vows, but does not propose or advocate for any particular answer.

Partners are expected to abstain from sexual or romantic activity outside of the relationship, but does this imply that they are entitled to it inside the relationship?

That’s the crux of the matter: It seems natural to say that if one partner promises not to seek something outside the relationship, then he or she has a right to expect it within the relationship. But in ethics, we make a distinction—albeit a somewhat controversial one—between duties of inaction and duties of action. We feel more comfortable saying that someone should abstain for doing something rather than saying they should do something.
This article is about a very specific ethical and philosophical concept, not infidelity in general or in actual experience.
 
#23 ·
This article is about a very specific ethical and philosophical concept, not infidelity in general or in actual experience.
It's a pointless exercise :

You cannot argue someone into having sex with you.


That does not work, and borders on harassment.

If you want something from your spouse, you negotiate that. Arguments are for the Universities and the political forum. A marriage is something you negotiate, day by day.
 
#33 ·
Yes, asking for a divorce because your spouse is neglecting your sexual needs is exactly the same as sneaking around and sleeping with another person while you're lying to your spouse about being faithful. They both hurt.

Handing someone a knife and telling them you need them to sever the marriage is exactly the same as taking that knife and sticking it in their back when they aren't looking, because they both hurt.
 
#32 ·
When you marry someone it's with the understanding that sex is part of the deal, unless mutually agreed upon beforehand. So, yes, I believe you have obligated yourself, unless there are mitigating circumstances such as abuse.

If one spouse decides to withhold and not work at solving it, and the other decides that it's unacceptable, then divorce is the option, not cheating.
 
#34 ·
If we look at any other contract, the moment one party fails to live up to contract, the other party may also break the agreement.

For example, I am supposed to deliver three tons of barrelled pickles to company X the third Tuesday of every month. Company X is supposed pay in full by the third Thursday of every month. When Company X fails to make a payment, the next month do I have an obligation to ship pickles?

Often companies regulate these questions in contracts.

In the case of marriage the law generally says zero about infidelity. No fault is dominant. The state sees no damages to a betrayed spouse. So from legal point of view there is nothing wrong with denying sex or cheating. The courts don't care.

Then we come to the question of traditional expectations. Generally nobody agrees that their spouse has a right to cheat. However, many would agree that refusing sex is ok under certain circumstances.

If a SAHW who was eligible for life time alimony said to her husband that she was not going to have sex with him anymore unless he bought her an expensive new car, he might not agree. Furthermore, he might not seek a divorce because it would ruin him. Would he have a right to cheat? Or would he have a right to announce that he was going to go outside of the marriage for sex?

If he told his wife, I am going to sleep with Sharon down the street, if his wife did not give her permission, what then?
 
#35 ·
If she's using sex to get what she wants, and he's not happy buying her cars, then he needs to divorce her and deal with the fallout. I'd suggest he get a gun, and make her sign a post-nup saying she gets nothing, then divorce her. Then buy that car she wanted, and give it to a hot girl 20 years younger. The End.
 
#37 ·
It's assumed that when you marry someone, you will have a healthy sex life. No man in his right mind would get married if there was a 'no sex' clause in there anywhere. Any man that says he would is either lying or a closet homosexual. If a woman doesn't mention it, then tries it, it's a breach of that understood part of the contract.

..and you introduced a gold digging blackmailer, so I had to get a gun.
 
#39 ·
Ah, this is why in this scenario, where you're concerned that this person won't give you sex, or might blackmail you, or you have a thing where getting a divorce will tarnish your name. You don't marry, you purchase a blow up doll and put a wig on it and name it Trisha. This doll will always give you sex, and it will never need any money. It's the perfect woman.
 
#44 ·
There are the marriage vows and there are the state's laws. Our vows say we promise "To have and to hold", which means we promise to have sex and to physically comfort our spouse. We also promise to "Forsake all others", which is an expansive exclusivity which includes but is not limited to sexual and emotional fidelity.

Yet the laws in most places do not recognize a general expectation or right to sex within a marriage, nor do the laws recognize sexlessness nor infidelity as factors in a divorce settlement.

Under the law then, one is welcome to deny a spouse sex, and one has no legal beef when the spouse then goes out and cheats. Yet one has every moral right to expect sex within the marriage and to expect sexual and emotional fidelity.
 
#61 ·
Yes, I CAN live without sex (and did for much of my first marriage). I just wouldn't WANT to LIVE without it! For me that would be a very unhappy existence, although I did (and would if necessary, again) try to compensate in other ways. However, all those alternatives simply don't remove the desire for sex and an intimate connection.
 
#62 ·
You may be wrong, Allen. The guy who had his arm trapped by a boulder in desert canyon and had to cut it off with a pocket knife may have jerked off before he finally found a solution. Men are really into sex. Also, people in Soviet gulags and Nazi concentration camps used to **** between barbed wired even thought they needed all their energy to survive.

Pregnancy then meant death.

If you told a teenage boy that he could lose his virginity to the girl in school that he was secretly in love with if he could skip eating for two days, he might do it, assuming of course that this promise had credibility. I guess if got a kiss and a grope at the end of each day of fasting, his will would grow.

Cheating is a form of dishonesty. The question is does any form of dishonesty or betrayal within a marriage give a spouse justification to be an adulterer?

EmptyShellDad,

Did you ever discuss ethics with your ex? I suspect that she respects you a lot for being a thinking man. Your crafted limbo reconciliation is something that she never conceived being her fate.
 
#65 ·
Any actual scientific research to back that statement up? Lots of men and women practice celibacy and live long lives.

According to your theory would the following not hold true then:

Mother Teresa could have lived to be 100 instead of dying at 87 had she actually engaged in sex from time to time, right???

Would it not hold true then that the more sex one had the healthier they would be as well. John Holmes and Freddy Mercury died to young then as per their libidos, correct?

Heck Steven Hawking could be even smarter and more mentally acute if he was more physically adept in sex right??
 
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#66 ·
I need someone to define sexlessness now.. Does a blow up doll count as sex?

Does anyone really know if that Hawkings guy isn't in the wheelchair because he never had sex? That might be the cause of his physical issues... perhaps if he'd get a good BJ, he'd be walking fine.

I also want documented proof that Mother Theresa never had sex.

Going to get popcorn, brb..
 
#68 ·
#69 ·
A benefit is a positive that i not guaranteed. Not a one of these articles prove or back your claim. They all refer to how it "can" or "may" increase or make your health benefit, to which I agree, but no where in there does it say that abstaining will definitely make your health worse, which is exactly what your original claim was. These articles, and none of them are really researched, as no statistics were given which would happen if they were researched and tested, just that people whom do this "may" or "can" have lower instances of some health issue.

Your claim was that "Sexlessness causes mental health and physical health problems. While one may not die in a week of sexlessness, one may die years early due to sexlessness." These statements were not supported in any of these articles. Just because the article says something like sex may help to create a prostate that is healthy and free of cancer, doesn't mean that it is saying, men that abstain from sex will have unhealthy and cancer prone prostates.
 
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