It seems like those with religion can grasp onto that and pray and trust that their god will deliver them from the pain of being a BS. What can atheists and agnostics use? You can't pray to science. You can't expect the Universe to deliver you from your pain. I think I'm feeling jealous of other's faith even though I have no desire to have faith in a god myself.
I dont go to church. I really havent since I was forced to go as a kid. I have no plans to ever attend church. I'm a good man. I do right by people. I am a good man because that is my nature. I have morals, ethics, honesty, and integrity not because a being who may or may not exists tells me to be that way, its because thats the way I choose to live my life.
I hear all the time from church nuts that not going to church on sundays will keep me out of heaven. Well, some of the ugliest, greediest, and hateful people I know are all regular church goers. Monday through Saturday these people would rather spit on you than help you. Yet every sunday there they are at church praising love and gods way.
You're gonna sit there and tell me that person goes to heaven based strictly on the fact that they attend church every sunday, yet someone like me wont because I dont go?
the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
"ideas about the relationship between science and religion"
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed; More
sect, church, cult, denomination
"the freedom to practice their own religion"
a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions
"the world's great religions"
a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.
"consumerism is the new religion"
I guess I am not atheist from reading the definition.
I do no believe in a God or any gods...but I do believe in an afterlife. Not like Heaven or Hell (lol) but more of just where the souls are. Energy cannot be created or destroyed so where does the soul go? I know a soul exists because when I saw my grandfather at his wake, he looked NOTHING like himself. I don't know why that convinced me that souls exist but it did.
I believe that souls are reborn to experience life again and again and balance our karma...good or bad. I think this accounts for my LOVE of the civil war. As a young kid, maybe 8 or 9, I would ask my mom to take me to the library so I could read about the civil war I bought books. I read Gone with the Wind about 10 times. Other parts of history call out to me as well ..I believe that some souls are a family and that's why when you sometimes meet someone, it feels like you already love them and have known them forever. It's happened 3 times for me in this lifetime. It's not always a romantic love or sexual love, but just Love.
I don't believe that children are clean slates with no prior knowledge to life or that they are truly 4 or 5 or 11 years old. My own daughters prove that to me. My 14 year old swears she's in her 40s. And I believe that. That's not to say I don't have rules and blah blah but this child has been riding me like a mother since she could talk :rofl: "You got in late last night." "Is that your 2nd glass of wine? hmm?" "How many helpings have you had?" "I noticed your bed is unmade." Yea. THAT is my child. Amg. I used to get annoyed and irritated but something happened last year where she and I had a big talk about what we believe and it turns out we believe the same things. She told me that she feels 41 :lol: And was SO FRUSTRATED that she had to go through HS again. But now, when she nags, I just saw, "Ok, Mom"....and we laugh. Maybe she was my mother in a past life, who knows.
I probably sound silly to people but I guess it's no more silly than someone talking about believing in God and some book men wrote thousands of years ago.
But that's how I know I'm not alone in this world. I'm here to do what I was put here to do...and sometimes those adventures are painful and difficult. But I try to do then with the best intentions and learn from the lessons that are all around me.
I believe that souls are reborn to experience life again and again and balance our karma...good or bad. I think this accounts for my LOVE of the civil war.
I am entirely convinced that one day I will be looking through an old book and there will be a picture. In that picture will be me in the background kicking the crap out of a dog.
Thats the only explanation for how horrible this life has been. I mustve done something really messed up in a former life.
Why does it always have to be about God, and always THE God, as if the stories in the Bible are really that much more believable than other brands of mythology? My belief system is not predicated on the existence or lack of existence of a god... and I try not to devote all of my energy into things I can't possibly understand, because given the limited evidence and tiny brain that I've been provided, I'd just end up creating my own stories to believe. I'd rather focus on things that are real, outcomes that can be predicted and repeated, things people have in common, and ways to improve the real world and our collective situation here on Earth.
Many of the atheists I know have more Christ in their hearts than so many of the judgmental Christians I encounter; but at least rabid atheists have the right to feel attacked, as religion has probably made daily encroachments on their lives. We're against the current, we feel more isolated, we can't pray to God for comfort, and we don't get a happy ending in heaven. Bad things happen, good things happen, and we don't always know why. On top of this, others perceive our very beliefs as an attack on them and their way of life. Just look at this thread... all Pam tried to do was carve a small corner to talk about our shared perspectives.
I hope that our future atheistic overlords will show believers more respect than we have been shown.
Why does it always have to be about God, and always THE God, as if the stories in the Bible are really that much more believable than other brands of mythology? My belief system is not predicated on the existence or lack of existence of a god... and I try not to devote all of my energy into things I can't possibly understand, because given the limited evidence and tiny brain that I've been provided, I'd just end up creating my own stories to believe.
Well obviously I don't either... and it should be clear from my posts that I'm never going back to religion unless God comes down to explain everything, booming voice and all, while holding his driver's license and 2 separate forms of ID. I don't know if we were created or if we just came about, and as I said before, I'll probably never know. Rather than focus on others' stories about what life it about, I'd rather find out what I'm about and live that path.
I don't miss what religious people have & for the very same reasons as you, but I once had faith myself, and I know how good it can feel - especially when times are hard. As a child I went from sharing a belief in God with every person I knew... every family member, friend, and role-model... to being utterly alone in my disbelief. It wasn't until several years later that I found others who thought like me, and we didn't exactly spread the good word about it.
Religion is an extra level of characteristics added over top of the basic layer of being human. Atheists are merely in the default state, and don't see any value in having that extra layer added on to them. That we call them atheists instead of something else just demonstrates how pervasive religion is, that the default state of being without it is termed by what it lacks instead of by what it is on its own.
On-topic:
There is comfort in believing someone else will solve your problems for you.
There is comfort in believing that the unpleasantness you are experiencing must have a valid rationale behind it.
There is comfort in having someone to unburden yourself to.
There is comfort in abdicating responsibility for your own wrongdoings.
There is comfort in believing that prayer is of the same effectiveness as actually doing to the trouble of taking action.
Atheists believe this comfort is based on emptiness.
Comfort for atheists is derived from having people to confide in. And not people who say they will pray for you or suggest you try turning to God, but people who support you with concrete action and according to your own beliefs and needs, not theirs.
Comfort for atheists is derived from taking action to solve their own problems instead of hoping they will solve themselves.
Atheists accept that the world is random and that people act in their own best interests, and they pick themselves up from misfortune and being used by others, and carry on by learning from their experiences.
Off-topic:Comfort for atheists is derived from having people to confide in. And not people who say they will pray for you or suggest you try turning to God, but people who support you with concrete action and according to your own beliefs and needs, not theirs.
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I've generally found that people who say this or who make these suggestions don't do so out of judgement (this is what comes of being a non believer!) or any misguided attempt to bring me 'into the fold'. If they know me and know that I'm an atheist, I think they mostly do it because they can't understand my position and the only suggestion they feel that they can make is what works for them
I do find comfort in knowing that my religious friends think and care enough about me to make an attempt to help me within their own reference frame. More often than not, when this happens, I end up in a lively discussion with them (very similar to this thread) over a beer (or a spliff in the case of my rasta friend Davy).
That can help to pull me up out of the pit or at least briefly take my mind off things.
OK, so second class citizen is a gross exaggeration.
Are atheists in the minority?
Yes.
Are minorities going to struggle relative to being a member of the majority?
Yes.
Being a minority does not make you a second class citizen.
Atheists can still run for president if they want to. You aren't likely to WIN, no, but you CAN RUN. If you can run for office, you aren't a second class citizen, sorry.
Second class citizens are people who don't even get to vote for example. Women were second class citizens until they got the right to vote. Poor people used to not even get a vote in many countries. THOSE are second class citizens.
Atheists aren't discriminated against. They just are in the minority. That does mean there's going to be a struggle.
But many people struggle as a minority in their life space.
Sometimes you are one of only a few black people in your workplace. Or sometimes a female is the only female lawyer in their law office. That's a struggle. But that does not make you a second class citizen, sorry.
There are people who are overweight, short, bald, seniors, etc.. they all struggle too.. probably a LOT more than atheists struggle due to being atheists.
And I bet a lot of those Christians who "discriminate" against the atheists out there are female... maybe as many as men. That means the females who do the discriminating have to deal with discrimination of their own as well. Being a woman is a struggle of it's own too.
I imagine there are a good number of atheists out there who are white males with good paying jobs too.
Life is a struggle for many people, for many reasons.
Sorry, that does not make atheists second class citizens.
Just because a religion is in the majority it does not follow that everyone who isnt' religious is a second class citizen. How marginalized are atheists in the USA really?
Not much compared to other groups, particularly in other countries.
And I would further argue atheism is a CHOICE. It's not like being BLACK and getting marginalized now IS IT?
Hardly.
If you choose to be atheist you can keep that to yourself. If you choose to be atheist you can choose to STOP at any point and life gets easier for you.
Sorry, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for the marginalized atheists in America. Nope.
Do they have to struggle relative to Christians? Sure, in many ways they may.
That does not mean Christians don't. Are you trying to tell me that a female Black Christian struggles less than a white male atheist has to struggle?
Hardly.
The struggles for atheists are there no doubt, but let's not dramatize it into the next Hollywood blockbuster either.
Uh, no. You're putting words into my mouth. Again. You're reading more into my posts than you should, and you seem to be going out of your way to avoid understanding the points I am making. I never compared us to women, or African Americans, nor did I equate my suffering with an African American woman... Christian or no. You did that. There are different levels of discrimination. Religious discrimination may take a different form, and it's not always as identifiable as sex or race; but it exists, and you even acknowledged it yourself, so why set up a Cabsy strawman?
I tried to use Catholics, as another religious group who saw discrimination at the hands of the white male protestant majority, to draw a closer comparison. Since you brought them up, women are also a great example of discrimination, while not drawing direct comparisons between levels of suffering between other groups because I don't care to get into all of that. Women are not well represented in government, paid less for equal work, and still struggling to shake off old cultural views of how women should behave (much of which came from religion). There are more women than men in the electorate, yet they are still fighting for equality in many aspects of life.
African Americans? Another great example along the lines of this discussion. They had the right to vote before they gained equal rights, and they still face discrimination and social hurdles to this day. I don't know why, but I feel the need to tell you, specifically, that I feel they face more discrimination than atheists in today's society. Just so we're clear. The point here is: Being able to vote (or run for office yourself) doesn't magically make things better, especially if you're in the minority, the system has been built against you, and the system doesn't want to change.
As I've said before... it probably depends on where you live as well, and my perspective comes from living in a place where corn, churches, and REPENT OR BURN IN HELL signs are abundant. Other ideas are not welcomed in that kind of marketplace: Gays, Muslims, atheists... doesn't matter much.
Honestly most atheists just don't say they're atheists because immediately everyone thinks you're a baby-eating monster. BUT in my experience the atheists in my life are the people at the soup kitchen hanging out with the homeless and buying them shoes.
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