Laureen, I see what you are driving at but not all betrayed husbands are like yours. Many of us were good husbands who did our best to treat our wives with love, kindness and respect and for all of this they still chose to cheat on us. They then plead with us not to divorce them and expect us to be satisfied with the information they provided us. This information usually is only the tip of the iceberg because they tried to minimize the impact of their betrayal by withholding more information regarding their affair(s) for fear of pushing us over the edge and deciding to leave them. We sense that we are not being given the whole truth and we are often right. They have the complete picture of what the puzzle looks like and yet they only provide us with a few pieces of that puzzle. How can a betrayed husband be expected to move forward with reconciliation if the unfaithful wife doesn't want to help her husband make sense of her affair by providing him will all the pieces of the puzzle?
I hear you loud and clear. So you must be the 1 man who has never ever allowed your relationship to wither and left your wife with an emotional void??
It is so hard to fathom... It is so unlikely that both of you did not play a part LEADING TO IT. No that does not make it your fault. She had other alternatives. So do you. No you do not have to accept it and move on. But I offer you this question?
Do you really, really want to know everything about it? Would it make it so much easier for you to picture your wife doing particular things with someone else or someone doing particulars to her? Would it make it easier for you to make love with your wife while picturing all of this? NO WAY!
Our MC told my husband he needed to cut it out and start working on himself while I worked on me. Only that way could we grow. Of course we had together stuff to work on too between visits. I can tell you honestly, our marriage has gotten better because of the work we have individually done on ourselves.
I know absolutely that not all marriages are like mine. In my original response to the OP I stated that I knew that but in order to give my own experience AS THE CHEATER, I laid out my own experience. My marital problems were certainly to the extreme. But even then, the affair was WRONG!! And even then, the affair was the turning point in our marriage. If it had not happened, I would have continued getting well in AA and my husband would not have been body slammed with pain - propelling change - and I, getting well would have eventually left him.
We have an interesting marriage today. He and I and I are both completely aware that we may end up divorced in the near future... if those warm feelings do not return to me. His growth in AA has made him a much better person and he says, very lovingly and sincerely that he really wants, more than anything for me to be in a relationship with someone who not only loves me, but that I love. He hopes that he is that person but fully understands why it is hard to open my heart to him today but we work on it. I understand fully that he DESERVES a woman who loves him and I want that for him. So, we talk very openly about the good things we have today and how we got to where we are and we don't look too far ahead. We make few plans for the future because we just don't know yet. No matter what... Today it is so much better than it ever was and without the affair experience, he would not have woken up. I simply would have had enough and kicked him out and it would not have taken long. I flew through my steps in AA because I wanted to be well and strong.
I am sorry that you are dealing with this. I know how badly it hurt my husband and I can only hope that you and your wife experience growth in leaps and bounds. INDIVIDUAL growth. That is how one affects change in relationships... PERSONAL growth.
Yes Laureen, adultery does not just happen. There is a cause and a reason to every ill thing in this world (and if not, you can always make up a plausible one). Yes, we all are victims of circumstances.
Still, out of two people in one marriage sh*tty for both sides, or great for both sides, often one would cheat and and another wouldn't.
People have free will, and some people are weak. We are no animals, it's no use to explain all your actions just by circumstances alone. Cheating is not rape, it's a choice made by free willing adult.
I see that you are deeply scarred by your husbands physical abuse. Frankly this is good enough reason to abandon him, and you are justified in your anger. Still the proper action would've been not to cheat but move on in your life without him.
Anyway, not every situation is like yours. Most people here are not abusers or alcoholics.
Oh I fully agree with you 100% on each WORD you wrote. I do NOT justify what I did. It is all part of what led to it and I HAD OTHER CHOICES as I CLEARLY stated. I could have and should have LEFT in the very beginning. I did not so I WAS PART OF THE PROBLEM. What I did was WRONG.
I am only confused on one thing you said. You said, "cheating is not rape." I don't know if you misunderstood me. I never said my cheating was rape. I said my husband raped me throughout our marriage. YES, husbands rape wives all the time even without ripping their clothes off and pinning them down. If a man pesters and begs and grinds on you and pouts and wakes you up every 4 minutes for several hours because he wants sex.... and you finally do it because if you do not, you do not ever sleep??? That qualifies as rape. If I CHOSE to engage 3 nights a week because I WANTED to, he would still do this for HOURS 2 or 3 nights a week. And as long as woman is left with NO CHOICE but to engage in order to end her torment, then yes it is rape. It is STILL FORCE. My affair was NOT rape and I never said that it was.
Other than that, you are spot on. I make no excuses for my behavior. I simply told the facts!
But I do NOT believe for a moment that people who are cheated on are 100% lovely in their relationships. That is BS. EACH partner causes problems in their relationships and still it is NOT excuse for cheating. BUT cheating, like in my case, CAN be the wake up call and can affect great change.
My wife Morrigan is on these boards. She will tell you that while I wasn't perfect I did not do anything to make her cheat on me. I was 100% loving in our relationship. In our case it was a lack of effective communication and many unexplored misunderstandings that caused her to withdraw from me. Unfortunately I had no warnings that there was a problem. She never once complained to me about my role as husband and father. She told me her withdrawal was due to work stress and I believed her. I think this happens in more cases than WS will admit.
I hear you loud and clear. So you must be the 1 man who has never ever allowed your relationship to wither and left your wife with an emotional void??
The emotional void was already inside of her. There was a huge trauma from her past that she NEVER, EVER told me about before, during and after our time together (I found out about it last year, way after our divorce was finalized). Agree with me or not but THERE ARE broken people out there who, unlike your husband, hide their state really well.
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It is so hard to fathom... It is so unlikely that both of you did not play a part LEADING TO IT. No that does not make it your fault. She had other alternatives. So do you. No you do not have to accept it and move on. But I offer you this question?
You make the assumption that all affairs are due to the marital environment and that simply is not true, many are but not all. Even good marriage can be a victim to infidelity if one or both spouses choose to cross marital boundaries. You also have what I just talked about, a broken spouse with issues that pre-date the marriage. In these situations the betrayed husband DID NOT play a part leading into it because IT WAS ALREADY THERE, INSIDE THE UNFAITHFUL WIFE.
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Do you really, really want to know everything about it? Would it make it so much easier for you to picture your wife doing particular things with someone else or someone doing particulars to her? Would it make it easier for you to make love with your wife while picturing all of this? NO WAY!
Some husbands do but personally no I don't want to know the gory details. But you know what? I had no choice. I happened to find a video on her photobucket account showing her naked and engaging in sex with the OM.
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Our MC told my husband he needed to cut it out and start working on himself while I worked on me.
And sometimes that working on oneself means leaving the unfaithful wife in order to heal. I had to because the pain was simply too much for me to endure and her presence was a trigger for me. There was simply NO WAY that I could have healed with her present.
It's good that you own your betrayal and other personal issues as well as your husband has begun to own his. No matter what the marital environment is like, all of us, betrayed and unfaithful, are responsible for our actions.
I am NOT saying that that is what is going on but really, message boards are very, very one sided in most cases. Nobody is a fly on the wall and is able to see what really is or is not taking place in that marriage.
Like your own story?
Then again, is it a coincidence that your affair partner is a rich guy ? Don't get pissed about what I am saying though. There might be a truth to it.
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Hmmm... I know that most people who get pissed off about something someone says usually see truth in the words spoken. Maybe the pissed off person is not the best possible partner they can be?
Then again, is it a coincidence that your affair partner is a rich guy ? Don't get pissed about what I am saying though. There might be a truth to it.
I am absolutely NOT pissed about it, BECAUSE I accept MY repsonsibility in it. And I am NOT proud of the way I lived at that time. I know I caused extreme pain!!
And I never said I did not play a part in my marital problems! No way. I came into it damaged due to my life experience and unable to act maturely and responsibly. I expected him to change into a better person if I tried harder, did more, tolerated more. So, I set myself up for resentments. Further, when I could tolerate no more, I chose to drink and I, having made that choice CAUSED a chain a circumstances in my marriage that kept setting me up for more and more resentment and anger and pain. No, I did NOT enter my relationship with this man as a drunkard. I hardly ever drank back then because alcoholism runs rampant in my family. I was NEVER going to bring up my daughters in that environment. I did NOT enter this relationship with mentally, emotionally abusive behavior. I did enter it with a past filled with mental/emotional damage as a child. I entered it as a emotionally immature child in a grown up body, filled with delusions of grandeur and unrealistic dreams. I entered it in a state of being maladjusted to life. I ABSOLUTELY contributed. And I became the same kind of person I lived with as alcoholism consumed me... selfish, self seeking, self-serving, ego-centric, etc...
HENCE, when I went to rehab filled with hate and anger for my husband (which was really great pain because I could not stop reliving every horrible thing between my husband and I. And there much self pity, fear, and shame all due to having dragged my kids through this same hell I had lived as a child). I really just wanted to die. I saw no hope in my future. And so, as I began to feel a little bit better (NO I WAS NOT MENTALLY WELL after years of inebriation. Nor was I emotionally well after years of playing a role in such a warped and destructive relationship. I began to have hope for a future IF I could stay sober. I also knew that my husband had NO intention of putting down the alcohol and I certainly could not ask him to and I did not ask him to. But I knew very well if he did not stop he would not change even a little bit. (During a 3 year period of 'dryness' - when we went to AA but did not DO AA - life had been much better. We were both much better people during that time, so I KNEW there was a chance if he stopped too) Anyways, we'd had a conversation over the phone while I was in rehab. I told him when I get home, I planned on going back to AA and getting a Big Book sponsor and working the program - His response was, "You had better not expect me to stop drinking, because after all, I work hard and I have the right to do what I want regardless of who it affects and if you don't like it, don't come home and don't even think about custody!"
So, that is what I was coming home to. And I was filled with even more fear. I had begun to get close to someone and yes, he offered me a life I had never known and I was STILL NOT WELL. I latched onto that idea because I feared my husband and I feared my ability to stay sober while he continued to be who he was. And yes, I had an affair. Yes, I did.
I am not that same person today. 2 years after starting my journey (living with my husband not making too many changes, but trying) my husband finally conceded that he is alcoholic and joined me on this journey. So, in the last 7 months he has changed so very much that he hardly resembles the little boy he was. Today he is a man. Today I am a lady.
So, In reply to what you point out to me about my affair with wealthy man... I can only say I included that peice of information for a reason... With all the stuff I had grown up with, with all the stuff I endured from my husband, and DURING THE TIME WHEN I DID NOT ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY for my part in the marriage, I was EASILY swayed in that direction... I was a mental/emotional wreck. It is NO excuse. The fact is, I USED him for my own purposes. I was selfish, self-centered, self-seeking, self-serving, etc... He was a way to turn the screw because I was filled with anger and pain and he was a way I truly believed I could make my husband leave our home so I would be able to stay with the kids. I had NO intention of letting the OG buy a house on the beach for us. I refused to accept the cash and checks that came in the mail. I refused to accept the car he offered to buy. I ONLY kept in phone communication after I left rehab because I DID get a perverse thrill AT THE TIME watching my husband writhe and knowing that I finally had some way to hurt him as badly as he had hurt me. Would I have eventually taken money? I don't know. I cannot say but I can tell you this... It is BECAUSE I came into AA after I flew home, that I became honest. I am talking about honesty in regards to MY CHARACTER DEFECTS. What is wrong with ME? It is that honestly that made me see how I had caused harm and that revelation is what caused me to decide to give my marriage a chance, and I ended it once I understood the person I had become. I was filled with shame and I had to make it as right as possible. And, I sat down one night with my husband and told him everything. Instead of flipping out and harming me, he cried. I told him that if he is willing to WORK on this marriage, I was willing to go to counselling.
Anyways, No I am not 'pissed about it'. I suspect you chose to say that TO piss me off though! LOL
But I do NOT believe for a moment that people who are cheated on are 100% lovely in their relationships. That is BS. EACH partner causes problems in their relationships and still it is NOT excuse for cheating.
I have found your story very interesting Laureen, and indeed warming. But I have to disagree with you here. I am sure when you say this that you have a long and faithful marriage in mind, and that after some considerable time one person cheats. So in that case, I agree somewhat. If one person within that marriage feels neglected, needs are not being met, unhappiness sets in, and if the pushes for change result in nothing, yes, non cheaters will leave, cheaters will cheat, in that situation.
My situation was that I met someone, he claimed total love and commitment to me, I loved and adored him. He was my everything and I wanted him for the rest of my life. He claimed all this to me too. Said he wanted me forever, wanted me to bury him (in the nice sense, as in together forever ) We got on well, brilliantly, have so much in common, a great partnership. We had great sex, I couldn't keep my hands off him, fancied him beyond what I thought was possible, I wanted sex more than him so he certainly wasn't lacking or left wanting in that area. He even came home one day with my name tattooed on his arm. He really did want me and love me. All was perfect really. But he had a weakness, and he was selfish, though only in the cheating sense. In all other ways he was a giver. He liked to do things for me, he showed me so much love, and I in return loved to do things for him, displayed my love in so many ways. It really was a great relationship and a great partnership. But he cheated. He cdn't keep away from his ex.
Unfortunately I had no warnings that there was a problem. She never once complained to me about my role as husband and father. She told me her withdrawal was due to work stress and I believed her. I think this happens in more cases than WS will admit.
While I wasn't the perfect husband either, I was told this too. So I worked even harder to make her happy and she continued to pull away. Later, I found out she had reconnected with her HS boyfriend. At least to my face, she told me I was a good husband and father. To OM, I was the evil douche bag keeping her from the love of her life.
I have found your story very interesting Laureen, and indeed warming. But I have to disagree with you here. I am sure when you say this that you have a long and faithful marriage in mind, and that after some considerable time one person cheats. So in that case, I agree somewhat. If one person within that marriage feels neglected, needs are not being met, unhappiness sets in, and if the pushes for change result in nothing, yes, non cheaters will leave, cheaters will cheat, in that situation.
My situation was that I met someone, he claimed total love and commitment to me, I loved and adored him. He was my everything and I wanted him for the rest of my life. He claimed all this to me too. Said he wanted me forever, wanted me to bury him (in the nice sense, as in together forever ) We got on well, brilliantly, have so much in common, a great partnership. We had great sex, I couldn't keep my hands off him, fancied him beyond what I thought was possible, I wanted sex more than him so he certainly wasn't lacking or left wanting in that area. He even came home one day with my name tattooed on his arm. He really did want me and love me. All was perfect really. But he had a weakness, and he was selfish, though only in the cheating sense. In all other ways he was a giver. He liked to do things for me, he showed me so much love, and I in return loved to do things for him, displayed my love in so many ways. It really was a great relationship and a great partnership. But he cheated. He cdn't keep away from his ex.
Indeed, in one of my replies I did allude to the narcissistic. As you say - he had a weakness. He was selfish, though only in the cheating sense... He could not do enough for you. And you in return could not do enough for him. That is lovely behavior. The way you say it, it sounds like TOO much was being done which is classic in a person who feels insecure about what they bring to the relationship, so they LOSE THEMSELVES while caring so devotedly to the other one! You each end up wearing love goggles. Further, it sounds as though he may have gotten an ego boost from that over indulgence. "Could not keep your hands off him..."
What is in the person who chooses a narcissist? Narcissistic people absolutely have an air about them. I am a narcissist in many areas of my life! I did NOT know this until I began to look at my character defects. If I am a giver (which by nature I am) then when I want more affection or better treatment, I will become MORE of a giver, hoping to affect a certain result. He will love me even more. He will speak more kindly. He will take me out to dinner, etc... When it does not work, I will try harder. (while the normal person will soon say, "Well this is total BS. He is unkind and unloving. I am done) But NOT me!! That IS self seeking behavior. People who avoid conflict do it because they need the atmosphere in a relationship to always be perfect to suit them, so they avoid and wear blinders. People who throw their money around are doing it for an ego boost... So, this man I met in rehab, being just sick as me and throwing around his wealth, got the result he wanted. He got his ego fed by me and I got what I wanted (because I am a giver). I gave him a roll in the hay so I could have a person who I could use for my very self centered purposes.
A person who goes way overboard with gifts is buying affections because they don't feel they can show you love, affecting a return of affection. They feel empty, with not enough to offer. So they show you love through gifts. People who feel this way about themselves often need their ego fed and often by the opposite sex. Many many people feel this way and MOST people get their ego fed through casual and harmless flirtation. SOME people - the narcissist, takes it a step further.
Yes, everyone plays a part. Even the most innocent plays a part. When the part is not obvious then it can be as simple as being so love struck, that we wear love goggles. Choosing a partner who displays defects of character is all one has to do to play a part. EVERYONE'S shortcomings become obvious in very short order. So when blinded by great sex and great companionship (as was I in the beginning) one ignores the subtle red flags and becomes deeply immersed and it gets hard to see the the occasional weed (defect) in the garden (assets)
Laureen - I just wanted to say thank you for sharing your story. It gives me alot of hope that I will be able to change the patterns of my abusive childhood to make my personal relationships that much better. I am really starting to see I have quite a bit of trauma to deal with - watching my dad beat and kick my mother and then my mother turning on her children with emotional abuse since she was not strong enough to leave....my H tells me when I am acting childish - "You sound like your mother". It helps snap me out of some of my way of thinking.
Such a shame children can be damaged so easliy by their parents and then the cycle continues
@ REMAINS --- I just wanted to readdress something because when I posted earlier I logged offline and had the nagging thought that I was not completely clear in my thoughts.
There are people who are BLAMELESS in their partners cheating... However NOBODY is without a part to play in sticking around for their own pain... And I believe it to be 100% true because those things that make us wear love goggles are the very reasons we STAY for mistreatment. We are damaged and seek another to fulfill us in one way or another. Two people feed into that kind of relationship. And one CAN BE blameless in the others cheating but certainly the hurt one has stuck around to be hurt by ignoring all the subtle signs.
In the end NOTHING justifies cheating. Nothing, nothing, nothing. Even when, like in my case, the end results turned out very well, it is wrong. It causes great harm and indeed, it is a selfish act.
Yes Laureen u are right...again. I have looked at myself a lot in why I did not address the red flags earlier...not enough experience I think. I didn't really know cheaters like him before. All the ones...well...one...that I experienced, he was not manipulative and loving and giving. He was obvious. I stayed with him 3 months. This man, the one described above, he completely pulled the wool over my eyes, gave me everything I had ever wanted in a relationship and had thought was never possible. And the relationship I describe above was far from perfect, I missed out all the crap parts! Unnecessary in order to make my point. They were all the good parts, and they were worth all the negatives (not worth the cheating tho) He was difficult and moody and so on, but I loved him deeply and liked all of him totally. I even loved his negatives. And I certainly was not without mine. And I was certainly not overly caring and giving, and him too, like those people who are like some kind of marital slave/parent. It was all in a very balanced way, and fun, and yes it was lovely. He would offer to do things for me, he would help me with what I was doing, he would do things without being asked, he would also tell me to sod off and do it myself or tell me no it is your turn. And all that vise versa too. Our relationship was not as slushy as it sounds. Yes a lot of love, we did a lot together, loved being in each others company, but it was a feisty and bickery and turbulent relationship. A very passionate relationship on many levels. But we worked really well together. Very similar on many levels, very compatible, very argumentative (though we didn't really argue much after the first year) and very much in love. And all that while laughing (and bickering) the whole way through. That is why I ignored the red flags also along with the lack of experience of cheayers and their behaviour. After the first year (that was awful due to his cheating, his behaviour was intensely hot and cold) everything improved ten fold. And all his good points came more to the surface and his bad points diminished. He became mostly hot. And so when I believed there to be more things going on, which he denies, it has been very difficult to leave him. Though I think I have managed to this time. I hope. But I so so desperately wanted it to work out, wanted him to be honest and truthful so that I could forgive & move on. So wanted to believe and trust him. But I don't believe. He maintains he is though. And so I have left the love of my life (and he is. For all those reasons above) on things that I may possibly be wrong about. I don't think I am though. Ah well.
Sorry, I feel I have taken away from the thread here. I will shut up now.
So you must be the 1 man who has never ever allowed your relationship to wither and left your wife with an emotional void??
You're a real piece of work. If I were to flip that coin I would say I guess you're the one woman who never neglected her husband's sexual needs and was always faithful. But I guess we can rule out that last part.
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Re: Wife came clean, what next 
) We got on well, brilliantly, have so much in common, a great partnership. We had great sex, I couldn't keep my hands off him, fancied him beyond what I thought was possible, I wanted sex more than him so he certainly wasn't lacking or left wanting in that area. He even came home one day with my name tattooed on his arm. He really did want me and love me. All was perfect really. But he had a weakness, and he was selfish, though only in the cheating sense. In all other ways he was a giver. He liked to do things for me, he showed me so much love, and I in return loved to do things for him, displayed my love in so many ways. It really was a great relationship and a great partnership. But he cheated. He cdn't keep away from his ex.
