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Chump Lady on Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs

31K views 250 replies 48 participants last post by  Headspin 
#1 ·
This is another good piece from CL.

Why You Can’t “Nice” People Out of Affairs

This quote bears repeating!!!

"But here’s the thing — you can’t nice people out of affairs because you didn’t “mean” them into affairs in the first place. Their decision to cheat is completely on them. We don’t control other people. Our niceness doesn’t win them back. And our meanness doesn’t compel them to hurt us. Besides what crime did you commit that is proportionate to the punishment of being betrayed?"

The BS may be imperfect but they don't deserve the punishment of infidelity.As if the cheating spouse was perfect to begin with. HA!
 
#134 ·
I think what's being missed here whether intentionally or accidentally is WS are human beings and like any human being can make bad life decisions but that doesn't mean they have to let those bad decisions define who they are or who they want to be we are the accumulation of all of the work we put on ourselves and that work is what defines who we are.


if my post is off topic I apologize I just wanted to get that off my chest.


PS: this will be my last post in CWI I came here to learn,listen and if possible help but its become to argumentative with a lack of empathy for other whose opinions may differ it's starting to become an intellectual miasma and frankly I'm done. I wish everyone here truly the best...
 
#136 ·
Sorry you are leaving the thread.

I agree that WS are simply human beings, and yes humans make bad choices.
I would respectfully disagree that those choices "doesn't mean they have to let those bad decisions define who they are or who they want to be" The choices any of us make in life are, by definition, the sum of who we are. Infidelity may or may not define the WS for ever. Again, what they do with their choice is up to them. Learn from their bad choice and make amends, or not. What they cannot do, is shift the blame/responsibility/guilt/burden to the BS.
 
#145 ·
Riley, the problem is that you're imposing an ideal standard on a messy reality. Your expectation would require that anyone who cheats research the best way to handle disclosure prior to cheating, which is a delusional idea at best. The BS would also have to preprare in advance to avoid asking the "why" question and focus the discussion in channels you deem appropriate. Good luck with that!

If someone is as mature and sincere as you seem to expect, odds are they wouldn't have cheated in the first place.
 
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#157 ·
Odd that someone can rant and rave about betrayal and deception and then can't take the hint that our relationship isn't working out ... so they pretend to be someone else.

Isn't that ... 'cheating'?

We have several that come back and resolve themselves to behave. But those folks are in the minority. They usually can't keep a lid on what got them banned in the first place.

You'd be surprised at how often this happens here.
 
#160 ·
There seem to be a few subthreads to this conversation and I am not sure I have followed them all, but I will chime in to agree that unless the reason your spouse had an affair was that you were in fact a jerk trying to "nice them out" of the affair is a terrible tactic, whatever outcome you desire. Now you are kind of validating this other relationship by competing for your spouse's affection. It's intuitive, but desperate and terrible. And soul destructive. Now, if you were a total ass and that is why your spouse sought affection elsewhere, yeah, maybe be less of an ass.
 
#162 ·
HB, this is essentially what my BIL has been doing with my SIL. Competing with the OM and your right, it's been soul crushing for him. I'm sure she's just loving it. She has played with his emotions, telling him one day that she want's to come home and then the next day she changes her mind. What's he fighting for? After two and half years of this stuff, I don't know how he can even love her anymore.
 
#165 ·
An affair or other act of infidelity is in large part about lack of respect. Which, parenthetically, may be part of why men seem to have a harder time with infidelity. You do not get that back through grovelling. There is another thread current about the state of CWI with some discussion of reconciliation (whatever that may be) and divorce. I am one of those guys who is close to 3 years into trying to hold all this that is my family together. It sucks, it's beautiful and exhilarating, it's boring and long and tedious, it is for sure the hard row to hoe, but it is my family. I am sure others here, like Racer maybe, get this. If you want to keep your marriage from or following an affair, you do it by hook or by crook. Use whatever you have. Switch gears when necessary. And be clear-eyed about what will happen if it does not work out. There is a lot of comfort that comes from understanding what will happen if it does not work. It's only castles burning.
 
#170 ·
Just found another relevant Frank Pittman quote:

You’re not going to be in love all the time, but if you want to recapture that magic from when you were in love, be loving. Being loving to your partner makes you feel so good about yourself, it doesn’t matter if you’re in love or not. The marriage is making you feel good if you are loving in it.
-ol' 2long
 
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#181 · (Edited)
To the original topic of why you can't nice your WS out of their affair:

As I see it, it's simple psychology. Doing this, reinforces the WS's false notions and justifications for their A:

the blame shifting
the villainizing of the BS
the entitlement of no consequences

It gives them the message that what they did must not be their fault; it must have been a wake up call to the BS. It keeps them in control; it reduces their perceived value of saving the marriage; and they lose even more respect for the BS in the process.

Just a bad, bad strategy all the way around.
 
#229 ·
Good idea, here.

If you've got a cheater, and a definite non-cheater, they likely look things differently, too.

Nice behavior to a cheater only makes it easy for them. They cheat, and still get a nice reception. Why stop? The cheater likely is lacking in conscience, so the nice behavior does not make them feel guilty, or empathetic toward their spouse. Its plain old positive reinforcement.

The non-cheater, who is burdened with conscience doesn't immediately get all this. They'd feel guilty if they cheated. If spouse was nice to them on top of it, even worse.

Maybe pull the Seinfeld "opposite" theory out.
 
#185 ·
Someone a few pages back suggested a BS needs a “why” to find forgiveness. Um… not for me. I’m more in Vellocet’s mindset of “once a cheater, will always be a cheater”. Only dramatic core changes and perceptions keep them from cheating again. So the alcoholic instead of thinking that drink is a release, learns to hate it from deep inside.

How? Reflecting on the wreck, the damage, and the pain THEY CAUSED and understanding no one ‘made them’ become this. For the same reason I needed the “why”. I needed to know she not only saw her core issues that ever made it ‘ok’, but that she dug deep enough to understand how she could do it and truly look back at the extent of the damage to everything she supposedly believed in this deep issue brought to her. That is why you need their ‘why’. It isn’t about me at all. It’s about how she copes with life not going her way and her default methods will insure misery, hurt, and destruction of everything she wanted out of life. So it needs to be modified and changed. It’s also why you can’t ‘nice them’ any more than you could change yourself so an alcoholic won’t use you as the excuse to drink.
 
#186 ·
I never really needed to know why my fWW cheated on me. It’s pretty obvious. She wanted the best of two worlds. The security of me, taking care of her, and the adventure of him, with whom she was still in love. And to know that I was #2 that whole time, while giving it my all, will always burn me.

That’s why I was branded stupid for reconciliation. But love is a funny thing. It surely isn’t a rational thing. Anyone who tells me love is rational hasn’t felt it. Or at least hasn’t felt it to the levels I’ve felt it in my life. It’s rare, it’s precious, it’s necessary for my mental health. And if I can make it work, well, there are always compromises in life. We determine for ourselves what it the most valuable use of our lives. We then retain the discipline to get through the hard stuff.

Nowadays, my fWW would just as soon shoot OM as see him. She tries to show me full-on love, to the best of her ability.

Full-on love, to the best of her ability. Wow. Who wouldn’t want that?

So trying to apply rational arguments to situations that involve the heart, rather than the brain, don’t work. If it’s a brain argument to start with, it wasn’t love anyway.
 
#188 ·
I have to agree with Riley Z. The why's do not matter. Some uphappy people cheat, some happy people cheat. Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered.
I did push for MC. He went a few times and stopped. So, instead, I went to IC, for years, by myself. I communicated. He said that he wasn't interested in fixing our marriage. He told me to accept things as they were and that "this is as good as it's going to get." I said that I could not accept it. I told him that I would be getting a divorce in 2 years when our youngest son graduated from high school and when I had made permanent living arrangements for our oldest son, who has special needs. After twice being refused a physical separation or a legal/in-house separation, I told him that I would no longer be waiting for love and passion if an opportunity came my way. I clearly told him that I was getting a divorce and that I was not waiting to move on. He responded to that the same way he responded to all of my other attempts to communicate my unhappiness to him. First he ignored me, and when that no longer worked, he resorted to verbal humiliation. At that point, I had no love or respect left for him. I had an affair. Did I ask for his permission? No, I did not. To be honest, I had reached complete indifference where he was concerned. It's a very long and complicated story. It's all on TAM. I don't expect you to read it and I'm quite certain you wouldn't feel any different if you did.

But before you throw out comments like "Some unhappy people push for MC to resolve their issues and improve their communication, others can't be bothered" perhaps you should know the facts.


Personally, after learning the extent of my ex's deceptions, I would not have believed any excuses he offered. I did not ask. He remains a miserable human being, having CHOSEN not to grow or discover anything about himself. I completely understand that not all WS behave in this manner, which does help prove the maxim that one solution does not fit all.
Neither my husband or I remain miserable human beings. We have BOTH worked very hard on ourselves, and on our marriage, for the last two years and are now happily reconciled.

I don't expect this post to change the way anyone else thinks or to change the way anyone views my personal situation. But, I cannot tell my story any other way because this is our story and these are the facts. The truth does not cease being the truth just because someone refuses to believe it. I'll quit repeating my story when the repeated attacks on me stop.
 
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#201 ·
Oh did I.

I'm not spewing any crap about you. I'm not calling you names

You and I do not get on do not see eye to eye about almost anything, that's pretty obvious from myriad of different threads going way back.

And almost every time I see you in a thread I see you screaming about not being lumped in with anyone else - you are "unique" and you are "different" etc etc. It 's almost in every post you write.

You're not. You're a wayward wife who dismantled her husband's world just like EI and god knows how many others. Sure you've stood up unlike many of them and realized to get a shot at reconciliation that works you have to own what you did and to all intents and purposes you have. Good for you. Well done.

BUT and here it is, it's almost as of it's like drawing blood from a stone there's always this little tiny bit of fighting back about it in some little hidden way. I can't quite put my finger on but I'll try.

You see other peoples post like the one above from EI and you 'like' it. I ascertain from that, like I do when I 'like' a post, that it 's a particularly attractive post and everything in it that you 'like'. You're sympathetic to the contents. Well that's what started me off after seeing a lot of those kind of posts recently. You agree with that post and others like it then I'll lump you in with what she's saying unless now you're about to say you liked a post you don't agree with

A lot of betrayed spouses on here are sick and tired of the now customary 'attacks' on us to the point where I've seen in recent days / times that we betrayed spouse need to 'look at ourselves' as to why our wws chose to cheat cheated on us, FK that ! We now get that apparently we did not deliver the "unmet needs " FK that! too

As I said the only wwaywards I have ever seen on here who just put their hands up and than shut up were tears and Perdido - the rest of you seem to have this insidious little network that is hell bent on actually turning infidelity around to being caused by us betrayed some way back in the mists of time!

It seems even the mods and admin are taken in by it all too "Lets be fair"

Actually No

I'll say that again as I'm tired of it. I'll say it - NO Lets not be fking fair

Someone wants to wreck my life because they just decided selfishly and wanted to do it ? then they better expect something back other than sorry "I'm Sorry, I became a piece of sh!t on your shoe so that you had to go and fk someone else. Poor you -I apologize

Well I don't. I've had enough of the "it's our/my fault you fked around". I did that when I was with mstbx until I realized what a complete load of hogwash that was and I'm sure as hell not any longer gonna sit on here and listen to any more that blame shifting drivel from another load of wayward spouse seeking some kind of way out for their appalling actions

You may have reached some line that been crossed .....but so have I too
 
#194 ·
I'm pretty sure a lot of the commentaries are written from a place of profound pain. And seeing that, I am reminded how broken many of us have been and still are.

In my own case, my ex-wife reverted to excuse making as often as she could regarding her culpability in cheating on me for so long.

For awhile, after years, of drama with her, she would act like a repentant ex-cheater. But I knew she didn't really believe her own act, it was designed to just get me off her back.

When I finally filed for divorce and pulled the plug on that awful marriage? Guess what? She reverted to every excuse and justification for what she did and threw them at me, blaming me for her long affair.

No growth, no introspection.

Can I paint with a broad brush about all who cheat based on my sample of one?

No.

Is the impulse to lash out still there?

At times.

How did I get beyond that?

By concentrating on fixing myself, getting away from her evil and making a good life going forward.

It does work.
 
#202 ·
She's the one posting on this thread about this topic, trying to convince others that the BS holds responsibility. I do not agree. None of my remarks were directed towards her or her situation (of which I did not now), but I am not brow-beating her or anyone else by stating I disagree.
 
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#209 ·
Well I'd venture to suggest you liked that post because amongst any other reasons - you agreed with it? Yes ? I think so

And from where I sit it obviously puts you in the same frame as her, you agree with what she's saying or are you now suggesting that those lines I highlighted you now don't agree with .......yeah right

Please don't try and dissect why you 'like' a post. It's obvious

And as for taking time to see who likes a post I often don't notice but the nature of that one made me look to see who if anyone agreed with it ....YOU
 
#212 ·
Fer cryin' out loud. I know this place is a trigger for a lot of people, but really...

Cheaters need to own their actions. They are adults that have made a commitment and have broken that commitment. And are responsible for that -- including the devastation caused to their spouses and their families.

For many of those betrayed (myself included) understanding the drivers that enabled their spouse to cheat on them aid in the healing process. That's something I can look at and use to grow whether we reconcile or for the next relationship. That's not blame shifting, that's growth.

When the betrayed spouse uses the reasons why they cheated (lack of sex, lack of connection, opportunity, etc) as justification as to why it's not their fault, that's blame shifting. And the death of any opportunity to reconcile as far as I'm concerned.

But not every honest conversation about why someone did something is blame shifting. It depends on where it's coming from.

"I screwed Sally because you're not giving me enough sex" -> blame shifting.

"I screwed Sally because I'm a total idiot and I'm sorry and I'll do anything to make up for it I felt like we weren't having enough sex so it felt justified at the time and now I realize how much pain I've caused you rather than working on that and I realize you have every right to leave me but if you give me another chance I'll be open and honest about everything and do anything you ask" -> not blame shifting

Me? I'd freaking kill for a reason. Even if she WAS blame shifting. Because that way I could at least understand what she used to justify the devastation she caused.
 
#243 ·
But not every honest conversation about why someone did something is blame shifting. It depends on where it's coming from.
:iagree: This is the key point for me. A WS is not necessarily trying to justify or explain their actions every time they open their mouths to talk about what was going on inside their heads or their hearts. Sometimes they are just opening up honestly.
 
#214 · (Edited)
<<But here’s what I think is more likely — you don’t suck. You’re saddled with a partner who has checked out of the marriage. Why? Because of entitlement, cowardice, and crap life skills. Why? Because that is their character — when the going gets less than optimal, they cast about. The cheater is devoting their energies and resources elsewhere, and someone has to pick up the slack. That someone is you. Chumps are usually hyper-responsible, conscientious people who aren't terribly high maintenance. We can shoulder more than our share, because hey, that’s what you do for people you love. We mistakenly assume they’d do the same for us. Our stick-to-it-tiveness is a reflection of our character, and cheaters know this. It’s why it’s pretty easy to cheat on you — you’re a trusting idiot.>>

This is the paragraph that rang true for me. I am a pretty self-sufficient person. I am a doer. I am the one who always makes sure everything is running smoothly, taken care of, not high maintenance at all. Not to my detriment, I don't think. FCH sometimes takes advantage of that. If he says "we" should do something he was used to me doing it. When that stopped happening all the time he was surprised. I didn't do it to please him, I just like to get things done.

When we went to MC after the first time, at the very first session the counselor looked at my FCH and said. "Do you hear that?" She is taking all the responsibility so far. And it was true, I was not taking it for his cheating, but for the state of our marriage while he just sat there telling her it was a mistake, it was over. (It was not, but I didn't know that then)

We went to one more session and then he was suddenly unavailable for any more, but really, he told me later, it was because he felt blamed. Duh.

I am not 'nice' in that way anymore, unless I see equal amounts of niceness coming back at me. Which now it does, but there are times when I am not feeling 'nice' at all still. And that might never fully go away.
I am certainly not jumping through any hoops these days.
 
#224 ·
vellocet, this isn't fun for me. I'm sure that it isn't fun for you or for anyone else, either. What B1 and I think, feel, say and do with regard to our marriage does not need to have any effect on anyone else's marriage or relationship besides our own. If someone finds something about our story to be helpful in their own personal lives, (and our pm inbox overwhelmingly says that it does) then we are happy to share our personal experience with them. If they don't, they are free to disregard my posts. Or they can put my posts on ignore. But, I do not think they are entitled to continue trying to browbeat me into submission. This helps no one.
 
#222 ·
I am discouraged by the name calling and how so many posts get changed into personal vendettas where some people see 'their' story or supposed attacks at every turn.

I understand getting off topic in some cases, but not when it turns into the 'everyone is against me, and here's why I'm right' or the down right rude name calling starts.

It's not about just a few people here, right? Why does it end up with people arguing about semantics or certain wording, instead of the topic? Sometimes it seems as though some people just come here to argue, no matter the point.

How pointless and unproductive.
 
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