Never say Never

MsLonely · 02-04-2011, 05:42 AM

Thanks for your response to my challenges. I appreciated your sharing.
For you, as the loyal spouse, they're all sinful decisions in marriage.
For the disloyal spouses that have little idea about how the brain works with all these psychological terms, their cheating decisions, in their views, are good decisions. The marriage contract is effective only when both parties want to keep that marriage contract.
When either one heads half way of termination of the marriage vows, for him/her, cheating could be just a trail, a preparation that might follow by a final termination in all the commitments, vows and moral rules.
Ppl are free to get married and make a vow, signing a marriage contract; yet, don't forget, they're also free to terminate that vow and check out at anytime they want. Cheating tells you, the marriage has hitted a dead end. It's right or wrong; good or evil, it's in trouble.
No matter how evil you want to name it, cheatings are not evil decisions. It's simply a decision. It's awakening from an unhappy marriage. The worst consequence is to break the vow and get divorced which they've considered for a long time already.
After the marriage contract is terminated, who cares about which spouse is right or wrong?
All the understanding of psychological terms and moral judgements will be forgotten when the love story ends.

MsLonely · 02-04-2011, 06:00 AM

I don't mean to challenge you more. Just share some brutally honest views that are in DS's minds.
Of course it's a fog but they're aware.
They're not idiots.
They know what cheatings mean.
If they make a so called bad decision, at a certain level, they've given up their marriage long ago already.
It could be the issue of custody making them hesitated in getting divorced.
It could be they still love their spouses as family members, but not lovers.
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remmons · 02-04-2011, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Affaircare

Just thought you guys in this thread might enjoy seeing this:

What Is Disloyal Fog?

Pit-of-my-stomach--all I can say is "You've been reading!" LOL

I am excited to see how clear and down-to-earth you're making some of this. Obviously a person could go pretty deep into some psychological type talk when describing what "the fog" is, yet the way you write it is so easy to understand. Just so you know I am going to ask Chris to sticky this one because it just so well explains why someone we have known for YEARS suddenly is acting so out of character that it makes no sense!

I could have used this 2 months ago. I should have recognized the signs back then, but like they say, hindsight is 20/20.

Pit-of-my-stomach · 02-04-2011, 11:17 AM

MsLonely,

Please feel free to challenge my statements as much as you would like. I don't know that you’re going to accept any of the conclusions and facts regardless of the absolutes that are offered.

I hope you can allow the two points which can not be debated. Everything I research and anything I offer begins with these two things.

Infidelity; 1. It is wrong. 2. You choose to do it.

I don't know that you want to or perhaps "can" accept them (responsibilty?) right now. I believe it's evident that you are personally struggling with a journey through the fog. The residual psychological effects of the “condition” are still present in your thinking.

As Freud’s research on the psychology of the human mind indicates, these Rationalizations are based subconsciously as part of your self protective instincts. Like most DS’s at some stage of “the fog”, you can’t listen or “hear” this logic. It’s is triggering cognitive dissonance. Everything I mentioned essentially throws the switch on a nuclear war happening in your head.

From what I read every point and DS thought process you have offered is littered with all of the defense mechanisms mentioned. Lot's & lot's of coping baggage. Excuses, rationalizations, justifications, deflection, impact denials, blame shifting, etc, etc...

I’m not going to be able to convince you or break down the “protective walls” you have built around your psyche. I’m not trying to, I don't know you. That's your journey. I’m just offering what I’ve learned trying to make it through mine.

MsLonely · 02-04-2011, 11:53 AM

My journey is both being cheated and cheated.
I have been through both situations. So I'm not rationalizing for either side. I simply want to point out some facts.
This research is still a study and not yet a theory. It's also a kind of rationalizartion with its purpose to put all the blames on the cheating spouse.
After putting all the blames, the cheating spouse apologise, ok then wants a divorce even when the loyal spouse would love the cheating spouse to stay in the marriage.
I'm not talking about psychology but what's happened in many cases in TAM, the LS fighting with the DS, in the end, the DS apologised and quit. Leaving the LS all alone only to find he/she is the only person believing in marriage vows, being faithful but being abandoned.
You said, infidelity is wrong, are you sure?
What if domestic violence is involved and the cheating spouse was physically and mentally abused?
Never said never. There's no absolute answers to explain every single marriage issue.
Marriage in the end is a piece of paper. Who has made mistakes and bleached the marriage contract isn't a main point. For the one who made mistakes still has a perfect right to check out the marriage.
If this study is only made to make the LS happy, but make the DS check out the marriage, its academic value is limited.

MsLonely · 02-04-2011, 12:17 PM

We get married because of love not because of logic. We get divorced because love is dead not because of logic.
Marriage is not a thing that you can put inside a box to say it must be all logical.
Ppl don't always follow and believe in logic.
If they do, they shouldn't get married at all.
Because marriage is a combination of desires and craziness.
It's a kind of ideology. You have a dream of happiness, to pursue it, you get married. When you find it's not what is expected, you wake up from the dreams, you start cheating and the worst situation is to fight for custody, that's probably the main reason to stay married.

Saffron · 02-05-2011, 01:24 AM

Hmmmm, interesting debate.

I guess I'd just say that if someone cheats, because they want a divorce and think their marriage is dead, then they aren't really in a fog.

If someone cheats, but never really intends to divorce their spouse, then "the fog" helps to justify the cheating.

Basically, not everyone who cheats experiences "the fog".

My husband cheated, but knew he never wanted to divorce me. He even told the OW at the begining of the EA that he wasn't going to leave his wife. She was new, interesting, and stroked his ego. The way he described what he was feeling and thinking during the affair correlates with "the fog". He even said her attention was like a drug.

As the EA/PA progressed, he started to ponder a divorce. However, he never gave it any serious thought, since the thought was too painful (his words, not mine). But it also seemed to make the affair seem less wrong by thinking it could be "more".

Living in the fog helped him enjoy the 10% fantasy he had with her, but then come home to me and live the 90% reality. When I found out about the affair and made the 10% fantasy a 100% possiblity by saying "divorce", he said it was like waking up to his worst nightmare. Whatever small percentage of doubt that ever made him think the word "divorce" during the affair evaporated in that moment.

These are all things we've discussed in detail over hours of conversation. I'll show him this post tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure he'll say "yup, that's it exactly." (If not I'll post any corrections) I don't think he's just saying this to try and make me feel better either. I've heard plenty of details about the affair that hurt like hell, there's no more sugar coating at this point.

Anyway, I still can't imagine myself becoming a DS. But if I did, I'm pretty sure it would be with my eyes wide open. A reason could be to void my 17 years of monogamy. Would it be wrong? Yes. Would I be in a fog? No. Will I do it? Not if I want a better and more fulfilling marriage. Which I do and so does my husband.

MsLonely · 02-05-2011, 01:54 AM

@Saffron,

The tendency for cheating husbands, they only want to get sex & appreciation (ego stroke) from the OW. Most of them won't decide to leave their families,kids and wives. Few of them would really abondon the family and go away with the OW.

For cheating wives who have EA + PA, they have somewhat given up their marriage already.

They stayed married for some reasons, mostly because they still love their husbands as family members, not lovers though. Also, when kids are involved, together with financial issues, they feel much hesitated to get divorced.

Women are much more aware when having an affiar. Usually, husband won't detect anything until things get serious.

By the time they found out wives' EA+PA, they're already on the verge of divorce.

As for your husband's affair, it's very typical.

After fk, the married man goes home.

OhGeesh · 02-05-2011, 04:13 AM

Ms.Lonely just so you know I agree much more with your take on cheating kudos!!

Post 24 I know many men who fall into this category. It's just a game, just a challenge, hit "it" a few times, then quit it. ZERO emotional connection then on to the next one all while the wife, kids, and family are at home.

No doubt men and woman are wired very different.

Saffron · 02-05-2011, 05:44 PM

MsLonely... sucks either way, doesn't it.

Hubs affair was big on the ego stroke. He only had sex with her twice over 7 months (lots of outdoor make-out sessions at their cars though), so for him it was more about that excited "new" feeling he got while getting to know her. Granted, we were having sex 2-3 times a week, so I'm sure that's why he didn't have sex with her more often. Having a girl fawn over him was the big draw and too much to resist.

Always get irritated thinking about the fact he got to date someone else for 7 months while married to me. Meeting for drinks, lunch, or even a movie. That part of the affair will be much harder for me to overcome than the physical part. Giving her his time meant more than giving her his tongue.... or other body parts.

Pit-of-my-stomach · 02-07-2011, 11:07 AM

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