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Let the bashing begin...

493K views 1K replies 142 participants last post by  manowar 
#1 ·
Like many before, I'm a long time dweller, first time poster. I guess I just want to share my story, vent and see if anyone has something to add that I might have overlooked. I'm confident that I'll be called a beta, a rugsweeper, etc., but I can handle the criticism.

Both my wife and I are 38, she's 4 months older. We've been married for 15.5 years. She's gorgeous. I'm in shape and I guess I'm ok looking (lol) but I have confidence issues because I went bald at a young age.

We started dating when I was a senior in high school and she was a freshman in college. After dating for a couple years, we had a falling out and broke up. Our paths crossed again after being apart and we fell madly in love again. It was like we tested the waters and realized what we had. Soon after we got back together, bam - she was pregnant. My mother is Catholic, my father isn't very religious. Our families, particularly my mother, strongly encouraged me/us to get married. I was for it and figured that if we had gotten back together after being apart, we were clearly meant for each other. I was just finishing my bachelor's, we were fairly young and in the hustle and bustle, I perhaps made the biggest mistake ever... I didn't have a big, romantic marriage proposal. We got married and had our first boy, who is now 15.

Things seemed good for the first 5 to 7 years. I did, like many husbands it seems, take my wife for granted at times and maybe I didn't focus on our marriage as I should have. I was playing in a band, working 40 hours a week and hanging with my guy friends regularly. I would say I would do an "extra curricular" activity 3 times every 2 weeks. She had similar freedom to do things she wanted to do as well but I was gone more than she was. We also had another boy about 4 years after our first son was born. He's now 11. Both kids are incredible!

She started a new job. About 2 years into the new job (2008), I recall her telling me that this single guy from work had been texting her to ask her about a single female co-worker he was interested in. If I would have only known then what I know now after reading this forum... At the time, I didn't think much of it and I told her I appreciate her being up front about it. I was trying to be confident and show that I trusted her.

A few signs occurred between 2008 and August of 2011, when the crap hit the fan (aka d-day). Sometimes it just felt like something was off. One time she was out for a rare girl's night out and I saw pics of her without her wedding ring on. She said she wanted to wear a "fun" ring that didn't fit when the wedding ring was on. I told her that this wasn't ok; she apologized and said she didn't realize that it would offend me so much. Also, she was losing weight and looking great. I just figured she wanted to get back to her weight before having kids. In this time, our sex life was good in my opinion (2 to 3 times a week).

It was around May of 2011 when she told me that a co-worker who she was training asked her how her husband proposed. This co-worker was going to propose to his fiance. She cried on the way home that day. At this time, it seemed like she was becoming distant. I apologized and basically told her that I felt we both knew we were meant to be together, it was sort of a given, etc. This was like a slap in the face type of wake up call...

I'm typing this on my phone so I will post this and add more shortly.
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#2 ·
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention how she phrased it. "Why are we married? You didn't even propose to me."

Anyhow, this kind of sent me into a tailspin, downward spiral. I started losing confidence, getting depressed, looking for clues as to if there was someone else in her life that I wasn't aware of.

I basically told her that I was sorry for the past, if you don't want to be married to me, just let me know. She basically replied that she was a "big girl," and knew that already but she loved me, I was a good father, etc. Also, during a different conversation, I was talking about this sleazy guy at work who had a few affairs and actually had had sex with a few different ladies (some married) right at work. I sort of wanted her to know that I wasn't tolerant of that sort of behavior, it disgusts me, etc. She basically said "have I given you any indication that I've been unfaithful?" But she never came straight out and said those exact words I was hoping to hear.

More coming....
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#3 ·
So, around mid-summer of 2011, I really started digging. I checked out our cell account and I was a bit shaken. I saw this number that she would text. It would be like 5 texts back and fourth one day, then nothing for 3 days, then 90 in one day... Quite sporadic. I reverse searched the number and found out it was the guy from work that she had mentioned back in 2008! My mind was blown. I was sick to my stomach. But again, some times there would be no texts for a week then a few then nothing. It only went back 3 months.

Of course, the next thing I did was checked the phone itself. I found that his contact info/number was conveniently missing. Mind was just racing... So I then looked for texts, nothing. She obviously deleted them. I did find 4 draft texts that weren't sent:

1. Blank
2. Wtf
3. Sad
4. Sounds like someone needs to fu

Clearly, number 4 above concerned me. I tried to slice it and dice it every way I could. My wife can swear like a sailor at times, so it could have been something like "sounds like someone needs to f'ing grow up," or something like that.
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#5 ·
So, instead of doing what a smart person would do and gather evidence, I bottled it up for a couple days, looked at her call history, which went back 12 months. There were about 6 calls, nothing too crazy. There was a concert in town that I had gotten tickets for months prior. I went but couldn't enjoy it. I came home and told her I had a headache. I also asked if there was anything she wanted to talk about or if there were any problems in our relationship she wanted to discuss. She replied no but she was worried about me because I wasn't acting normal (definitely true).

The next day I was at work when I realized you can see up to the minute usage. There was a ton of texts the day before (about 90). I just couldn't handle it.

I drove home and said "we need to talk." Keep in mind, I had done zero TAM homework at this point!
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#7 ·
Sorry this is so long and broken up like this. My laptop is screwed up right now...

So I take her into our bedroom and ask, "do you know who's number this is" and I rattled off the number, which is now forever etched into my brain until the day I die. She replies questioning if it's a couple different girls from work. I just laid there looking at the ceiling. She knew that I knew. She told me it's this guy from work. He's an alcoholic. I give him dating advice and kind of live vicariously through that fantasy because we don't go on many dates, etc. He's depressed, this has only been going on for 6 months or so. Blah blah blah.
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#8 ·
So, trying to make this long story short, she told him at work that she can no longer be his shoulder to cry on, that they can no longer talk about personal issues, etc. i guess you would call it a "no contact letter," to a degree. She clearly knows that she hurt me, nothing physical happened, she loves me, she wants to work on the marriage and we should start going to a marriage counselor right away.

We went to around 6 sessions. In hindsight, we should have gone to a different counselor. I was so stupid! This counselor had the "don't play old tapes" approach. This was so convenient for my wife!
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#9 ·
I, not knowing any better, agreed with the counselor because "she's an expert," you know? While we were going for counseling, I tried digging up more info... Looking at bank/credit card info. I didn't find any "smoking gun" evidence. In my heart , secretly, I just found and still find it hard to believe nothing physical happened.

Something I forgot to mention. I've known this girl since I was 15. Back in the good old days her and her group of girlfriends hung out with my group of guy friends. So my good guy friends know my wife well, in a plutonic way only. I talked to two of my best friends about the issue in confidence. They both unconditionally said they understand my concern, but they both 100% think she would never do that to me. She truly is just that nice of a person and her boundaries weren't well established. She is sort of the "care taker" type of person...
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#10 ·
Due to the job market and per the advice of the "expert," I didn't force her to quit her job. She still works there to this day. The POSOM is either married or engaged (not like that matters).

I've never contacted him.

Going back in time and remembering other points, about a year after d-day, I quietly still waned to investigate the past. I put a free key logger on the pc and obtained her user name and password for both her email and fb account. In her email I saw her google search history. In 2008 she looked up "emotional affair versus friendship." Also, there was a time when she looked up a restaurant close to POSOM's b-day (july 2010) when I was out of town camping with my boys. I haven't asked her about that and frankly she could have easily been meeting two of her girlfriends in the town in question. Her cell location records do confirm that she didn't stay in that town and my mother in law was living with us at that time so there's no way she brought him to our house.

But, when I checked her fb in August 2011, I did find a deleted message to POSOM from March of 2012 (6 months after d-day). The message was basically saying she was angry with him because he had stated that she wasn't helping him (she plays a support role). This really pi$$ed me off because this was a violation of "no personal contact." She said she was sorry but clearly the message was angry in tone and she didn't want to tell me because it would only add stress to an already stressful situation. I told her this was not acceptable. She understood, etc. Here's where you guys rip me apart...
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#18 ·
Wow Cubby, it's good to know I'm not the only one in this boat. I'll tell you what. It just sucks knowing that my wife had this secret relationship for so long. I just keep playing the movies over and over. Hot married co-worker develops emotional bond... It's like an invitation to take it to the next level!
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#14 ·
Bottom line... Basically, I feel like we rug swept issues. I feel like she has done much to prove she loves me. I didn't force her to quit her job. I feel like I'm screwed either way because I sort of agreed to put the whole thing past me when we were in counseling. If I press the issue she will again say that nothing physical happened. I guess that's the main problem! I feel like there is NO WAY an emotional affair could last 3 years without going physical!! If I find out it did, I would need to get out of this marriage. She insists nothing physical happened. Upon conducting my research, Ive never found smoking gun proof. Some days are good. Then I remember the past and I tell myself just to say screw it. Then I think about my kids... Uuuggghhh! This situation is just so frustrating!!!

Sorry for the crazy discombobulated post everyone!
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#59 ·
I wouldn't be TOO concerned here. Though I AM still on page one, so the next few pages may shed more light...

She definitely crossed lines and blurred boundaries. In a bad way? Not necessarily. If everything you know is the truth, and there's nothing else to discover, then I wouldn't even classify this as an affair, emotional or otherwise. Living vicariously, perhaps. Getting a charge out of helping somebody else, being a wing-woman, involving herself in somebody else's love life, sure. Developing an emotional attachment to this person? It doesn't LOOK like it.

Bottom line, knowing each other since your mid-teens, dating each other since your late teens, marrying in your mid 20's, and now being late-30's with 2 kids - that's an entire lifetime of exploration, experimentation, and experience that both of you missed out on. Some valuable life-lessons would have been missed, for sure. I know, I am in the same boat and married to a woman who DID have the benefit of learning certain lessons, sometimes the hard way.

To me, it seems like just yesterday I was 18 years old and having the fun and freedom that came with it, because I did not have the experiences my wife was able to have. I married young (no kids) and divorced in my early 30's. My wife did things the "normal" way. To her, 18 seems like a lifetime ago. She learned plenty of things that I did not along the way. I knew marriage and commitment and how to share a life with one person. She knew heartbreak and the thrill of meeting new people, how to deal with varying personality types, all of that. I live in a bubble world, just as you guys are.

My best guess, with the info you have given, is that your wife loves you, is committed to you, yet has a desire to see how other people live their lives.

This can be dangerous, as the next step -could- be to try and live another life, rather than vicariously through somebody else.

It appears that you've nipped this in the bud before it gets too far out of hand, though. But appearances can be deceiving, too.

A couple of quick things to keep in mind - you know your wife better than anybody else, never mind us. She has a catholic mother, and you married young essentially because of pregnancy. You have two kids, who do still need you and depend on you. To me, unless your wife is in a total fog, it does not appear that she would willingly throw away what she has and face any kind of embarrassment or ostracization as a result. Perhaps if there were no kids, no catholic upbringing, a history of infidelity (whether with her or your parents, friends, etc.) or even between yourselves, it could be a different story.

I'm thinking (guessing, and hoping) that this is the extent of what she's capable of, in terms of infidelity. But keep your eyes open nonetheless.
 
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#20 ·
I certainly hope you meant "had" sex! Now here comes the comments about lie detector test...

I just don't think that it's going to go well if I demand that.

It's basically a big gamble. If I bring out certain questions/demands she might just want to call it quits. But then again, if I'm not ever going to heal and she's not willing to "fight for me," then is it really worth it?
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#23 ·
In trying to recall/type this all out, I forgot to mention that in counseling I actually stated/asked if the emotional affair had gone physical. She took about 20 seconds to answer and she was choking up. It was like it was different since there was a 3rd party present and she needed to think about the answer...
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#57 ·
I can't believe this comment has been so ignored. To me, this is hugely concerning. Damning, really.

Had this situation been as she described it, she'd have been falling all over the place to reassure you. She'd have been offering all sorts of ways to prove that nothing happened, and visibly relieved to be able to tell you this.

Unfortunately, I think that secret relationships between adults like this are usually destined for sex, its the natural progression.

Again we see the old pattern: Its always the BS that has to look inward and say "I took her for granted", "I did this, that, and the other thing."

Somehow when the wayward is caught, its out of fashion to point out that they were doing the exact same stuff most of the time, plus feeling entitled and self centered.
 
#28 ·
Well that's another problem. At the time of d-day, we were using junk non smart phones. Now, iPhone 5c's. I'm not really worried about the "now" part of the equation. She does't lock or hide her phone from me. The only possible concern is that the POSOM might have an iPhone as well and those don't show up on the bill or whatever. I'm pretty sure she isn't dumb enough to communicate with him via any other electronic method other than company email, which I obviously don't have access to.
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#29 ·
Here you go...

Wondershare Dr. Fone

The above link is for the Mac version of Wondershare's Dr. Fone app. There is a Windows version available as well.

You can use the app in one of three ways...

1. Start the app on your Mac or PC and connect the iPhone in order to export texts (SMS/iMessage, and even some 3rd party apps), pics, recent phone calls, voicemails, contacts, etc directly from the phone.

2. Start the app and use it to export the same data from an iTunes backup of the phone.

3. Start the app and log into iCloud using the Apple iTunes user ID (this will be an e-mail address) and password that your wife uses w/ her phone. If she has iCloud backups enabled on her phone, you'll be able to use the app to download several of the most recent backups for her phone, and then export the data mentioned above from them.

The app will allow you to export any of the above data that hasn't been deleted, as well as at least some of what has been recently deleted. If you don't find anything conclusive on the first pass, you can always begin exporting once or twice a day.

Make sure that you save and back up your exports! Use a USB memory stick or external hard drive (something that you can hide easily) to store them and, once you feel that you have enough evidence, consider leaving it in a safe deposit box. Additionally, store everything offsite in at least a couple of different "Cloud" locations (Carbonite, Dropbox, Google Drive, SugarSync, etc). When doing this, make sure that you're simply uploading the data instead of syncing it from your local Mac or PC; if you're simply syncing, and your wife finds and deletes the data locally, you'll lose your Cloud-based backups.
 
#30 ·
This uncertainty will not go away. Doesnt matter what you said to your wife in counseling - why does she get to play and not disclose?

Either bring it up and deal with it now, or live with the anguish of uncertainty. I think it's better to know now so that you (and her?) can actually move forward. Otherwise, you're stuck in this mess.

Push her hard. Be prepared to move on without her. When you feel you can, that's when you'll feel the power/control shift to you.
 
#32 ·
I appreciate the response and encouragement! If we do go our separate ways, it will be tough on the kids and both of us financially. You're kind of right though. I am, at times, miserable. Then we have great days too. She's told me a couple times that she knows how much she hurt me and that she thinks about it every day. Maybe I will rake a multi pronged approach, do whatever further research can be done and explain that I'm struggling to get this out of my brain (knowing that this jerk still sees her every say) and that she really needs to look for a new job. I don't know!
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#80 ·
IMO if you need to know the whole truth you may ask OMPOS.
If I were you I will do this:

Wait for the weekend, then when you are with your wife for a while make an excuse and call the OM and tell him that your wife just has confessed everything, and that you need to hear from him...

When was last time they kiss, ****, las t contact, etc. that if he is not answering you will cal, his wife and sent her the messages. dont gibe him room, must answer at the moment of the call.

Important:

he not being able to talk to er for the next few days (thats why on weekend) and not contact betwin them at least for a few hours before (to ensure his is not knowing she is not coming clean).

Not being able to ask her (NC that's supposed to be on since Dday 2) will make him weak and willing to cooperate. Note that she maybe has a burning phone, cheaters lie.
If you get something diferent you have something to confront and excuse to a poly.
 
#47 ·
It's like I have a secret life of deep dark spying now and I damn near need to keep my phone locked! Just a sad situation. However, I've read posts on this forum that make my situation look very mild.
That's only because you don't know any more than you currently do.

And, honestly, the limbo may very well be the worst part of it.
 
#39 · (Edited)
My husband was in a 6 year secret friendship. He first met her a few weeks before he left his job at that company. To this day, he denies that it was a PA, but then, he even denies it was an EA (LOL!). I was left with a clever pair to deal with. He admits that she offered him sex but he refused it (Lol!).

Do I have hard evidence...No. It is actually evidence that the phone bills showed him juggling his time between her and me and alas, even another one. The thing with the phone bills after studying them, is that when he was with me, he wasn't, of course, calling/texting me, so what are the odds that when he was with her, he wasn't calling/txting her? So when he was with A, B and C got txted/called...See the pattern?

But interestingly, she said he betrayed her (the narrow-minded one believed she was the betrayed one). She told him that I am crazy to believe they were having an affair (knowing fully well that she had told him she was naked and her legs were spread under the sheets with one dangling off the bed). On my first contact attempt with her, she said "...I don't know why I am telling you this, but _____ and I have been friends for many, many years and if you try to contact me again I will sue you for harassment". Here it is, a girl who can't even add up the fact that he and I were married for 8 years before the "years and years" of her friendship began with him. But yet she was giving him marital advice having never been married and being 10 years younger than me....Here's the punchline...I am a counselor! Not to mention, she sent him a text he deleted and did not disclose this to me during the initial stages of our false reconciliation.

Was it a PA? Well, yep, according to my gut. I had to sort through all of this by myself. This is the crucial question, "Does this person have a conscience for me?" Worse, does this person have a conscience? To objectively answer these questions is key. You see, I had to admit that during those 6 years, we rarely had sex. So, where was he getting it? Yes, conveniently she was in the picture all of that time. It is absolutely cruel for a person to force another person to seek the truth. The day came when I was able to respect myself enough to say I own my gut feelings, they are no longer subject to his gaslighting.

It took me two years to review the previous 15 years and I ended up telling him my conclusion about his 6 year (or more) secret friendship: "Quite frankly my dear, I no longer give a f." You and she may now kiss my azz. I left him. He told me that he has been crying every night for the past 6 months since I left. My response: "Such is the life, I was crying for 17 years, welcome to the jungle baby." He also told me that the OW had such a bad character that she could never be his friend (It took him 6 years of mine and my children's lives for him to find that out). My response: "Then, I am glad you understand that that is exactly the way I feel about you."

I did the spying things too, no solid evidence found, OW is a web developer anyway. We all do get to the point where circumstantial evidence is enough. Where we acknowledge that our gut feelings never betray us and that self-preservation is the priority.
 
#43 ·
My husband was in a 6 year secret friendship. He first met her a few weeks before he left his job at that company. To this day, he denies that it was a PA, but then, he even denies it was an EA (LOL!). I was left with a clever pair to deal with. He admits that she offered him sex but he refused it (Lol!).

Do I have hard evidence...No. It is actually evidence that the phone bills showed him juggling his time between her and me and alas, even another one. The thing with the phone bills after studying them, is that when he was with me, he wasn't, of course, calling/texting me, so what are the odds that when he was with her, he wasn't calling/txting her? So when he was with A, B and C got txted/called...See the pattern?

But interestingly, she said he betrayed her (the narrow-minded one believed she was the betrayed one). She told him that I am crazy to believe they were having an affair (knowing fully well that she had told him she was naked and her legs were spread under the sheets with one dangling off the bed). On my first contact attempt with her, she said "...I don't know why I am telling you this, but _____ and I have been friends for many, many years and if you try to contact me again I will sue you for harassment". Here it is, a girl who can't even add up the fact that he and I were married for 6 years before the "years and years" of her friendship began with him. But yet she was giving him marital advice having never been married and being 10 years younger than me....Here's the punchline...I am a therapist! Not to mention, she sent him a text he deleted and did not disclose this to me during the initial stages of our false reconciliation.

Was it a PA? Well, yep, according to my gut. I had to sort through all of this by myself. This is the crucial question, "Does this person have a conscience for me?" Worse, does this person have a conscience? To objectively answer these questions is key. You see, I had to admit that during those 6 years, we rarely had sex. So, where was he getting it? Yes, conveniently she was in the picture all of that time. It is absolutely cruel for a person to force another person to seek the truth. The day came when I was able to respect myself enough to say I own my gut feelings, they are no longer subject to his gaslighting.

It took me two years to review the previous 15 years and I ended up telling him my conclusion about his 6 year (or more) secret friendship: "Quite frankly my dear, I no longer give a f." You and she may now kiss my azz. I left him. He told me that he has been crying every night for the past 6 months since I left. My response: "Such is the life, I was crying for 17 years, welcome to the jungle baby." He also told me that the OW had such a bad character that she could never be his friend (It took him 6 years of mine and my children's lives for him to find that out). My response: "Then, I am glad you understand that that is exactly the way I feel about you."

I did the spying things too, no solid evidence found, OW is a web developer anyway. We all do get to the point where circumstantial evidence is enough. Where we acknowledge that our gut feelings never betray us and that self-preservation is the priority.
Calibre - thanks for your insight and I'm sorry you went through this for so long. My gut says it went physical. It really does. Then I think about what my friends who know her very well stated. My one friend told me that it's like I won't be satisfied until she admits it. My heart, on the other hand, says no she may have crossed boundaries but she wouldn't do that to you!

My wife did write out a timeline, but it was interesting wording. For instance, she said that she could recall 4 times that he went with the work gang for happy hour. That doesn't state any other possible times they saw each other outside of work... Crap like that!
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#41 ·
Just my opinion but it sounds like may have had an emotional affair but kept it at arms length. it sounds like you have no evidence to prove or disapprove it. It is a tough can either way. If it was me I would not throw my marriage away over it. What was that saying, trust but verify.
 
#42 ·
I think you owe it to yourself to find out the extent of what went on or is going on. I didn't at first and I was trickle truthed. I still don't know the full extent. I hoped and wanted to believe that my X's EA didn't go physical, but it did. I found this out about a year later after many denials, excuses and lies.

We are divorced now. I have too much self respect to continue on in a half baked clown show of false R, lies, gaslighting and mistrust. R takes years, and the trust is never really rebuilt.

Your wife will most likely go to an extreme length to conceal the extent of her involvement with this OM. You already have enough evidence that she had an inappropriate relationship with this guy and lied about it. That's the crux of the issue. Yes, your marriage proposal wasn't disney magic and you're a flawed person (like the rest of us), but these are not good enough reasons for her to step out on you. She owns that.

If you contact the OM, you may not get the full truth, but it is possible he can shed some light on it. Maybe you can indicate you know more than he thinks. You know his number.

The key to your salvation in this is your self improvement. You will find this situation painful and very transforming. If you focus on transforming and improving yourself through this, you will come out the other side better - regardless of your marriage outcome.

HL
 
#44 · (Edited)
If there is one thing I have learned on TAM, it's about this gut feeling phenomenon -- just about never wrong.

ALL my friends, ALL my family, everyone who knew her would not believe that my stbsww, "she of all people", could or would cheat. My own mother said, "No way, not her" when I first told her. Just sayin'...

I'm not big on polygraphs as a solution, but...

It's eating you alive, yet you're afraid to ask her for a poly because you feel she will refuse?

Wouldn't that then tell you what you are so desperately seeking? You're not going to now find the smoking gun from years ago through your historical spywork. And she's not going to just come out and tell you out of the blue.

You will hear "just sit her downand tell her, she gets one chance, she tells you the truth - or you D". I've never understood that idea when there is a real question as to what occurred. It gives the accused only one thing they can say to make the partner stay. And if they don't say "I did it", you must then D or be left with no credibility.

The entire point of asking for a poly is to gauge their reaction -- and to either get that parking lot confession, or a clean test. Refusal is essentially an admission of guilt. So is subsequently googling "how to beat a polygraph", or like my stbxw, finding a dozen alternate reasons they just might fail even though they'd be telling the truth...


P.S.: I also really like the idea of having a little chat with the OM. As was stated,you do have his #...!
 
#46 ·
It is a very painful experience you are going through but take heart, when you arrive at the decision that enough IS enough, you will be so strong that you won't believe who YOU have become and it is at that point that you will know exactly what to do. As a result, she will no longer be worthy of you and she will know that she either shapes up or ships out. This is no hype or pep talk, it is reality. Been there done that. Fear is not love. It is an attempt to control our pain. Love is having the courage to conquer all of our fears.
 
#50 ·
Filling OM's wife/gF in will perhaps give you the answers you seek. Sometimes they know about the affair but did not spill the beans, perhaps for the same reasons as you.

You still love your wife but the uncertainty about the past is destroying your relationship. Does your wife perceive this? If must bother her since she wants to save your marriage. A good counselor would not rug sweep since the lump under the carpet reminds you of two people copulating after work.

Did your wife get different undies during the EA? How did your sex life change?

If you confirmed for certain that your wife had cheated, do you think you could get over it if she were remorseful?

Having coffee with OM's SO is at least a possible way out of limbo.

How is your sex life now? Is your wife really into you?
 
#51 ·
How is your sex life now? Is your wife really into you?
a hot sex life might be a good sign. But with an older woman...it may be natural for the sex life to be lower, even if she still does love you--just hormonal issues. So...not an accurate barometer

A sudden change in panties/bra style to much kinkier ones, especially if she does not flaunt them to you...might be a more telling thing. Or as another thread posited: "she shaved her cooch, but did not want me to see it....said she did not remember how it got shaved" or some such nonsense. LOL
 
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