You people here have been extremely helpful, so another topic I'd like input on!
Quick background: I am now 3 weeks post DDay to wife's EA, somewhat PA affair that ended several months ago on its own. At her begging we are in MC, and despite my anger I'm trying to give R a real chance, for my young son if nothing else. I have transparency, her full commitment and willingness to do the heavy lifting necessary toward making this work.
I've gotten your input about whether R is even possible, and dealing with the other man (thanks all!)... I have worked through getting to the truth about what happened physically (polygraph to come), and am now getting through what happened emotionally. Realizing how emotionally deep she got, what I am now struggling with is that she told the OM that she was in love with him... told him she knew it was wrong, couldn't help herself, couldn't stop it. And I am just not getting past it in any healthy way at all.
She insists she still loved me all along, but yes fell in love with this man -- and told him so (which is just a killer to hear, ain't it?). I don't know that it can be both ways... one doesn't fall back & forth (me, then him, then me again) -- that is not really "love", and that she doesn't even know what love really IS... she insists she does know, that this has all taught her exactly what love is, and has confirmed what she already had figured out she wants (me)... that it wasn't "love", it was infatuation at the time (although this period of several months, she did not figure that out and kept at it). My internal debate is that this owman I was married to for 10 years, I felt DID know what love is... which is what made it so powerful to give to someone else.
I grapple still about R being possible here... that I just cannot get past her admission (in my mind) that she in fact "loved" him, and therefore, in the process, did NOT "love" me. That she turned her back on me/us, chased her fantasy and made it more real, gave her heart over to him. Therefore, why would I risk or believe her or want that heart back now?
Am I seeing this too narrowly, selfishly, or incorrectly?
Maybe just venting (which helps), but your thoughts are appreciated.
ok AC, i'll draw first since my "gun" isnt stuck in its holster.
man o' man this begs a philosophical question we ALL must ask
ourselves and perhaps u best ask yer W w/out giving her too much input mind u.
ask her "how did u mean it when u told him u Loved him?"
u may be surprised at her answer.
e.g., we talkin' just the obvious eros, that it was?
or we talkin' philos?
or we talkin' agape, but probably not.
God expects us to LOVE one another but NOTthe eros way
we have been practicing it all over the world with fornication
anytime/anywhere/anyone type mentalities.
again ask her. hopefully shes not "blonde" or looks at u like
yer stupid for asking her that Q.
I read that there are different kinds of love, i.e. that the love for a spouse is usually stable, steady, based on companionship; whereas the love for an affair partner is based on infatuation, excitement, thrill of secrecy, etc.
I imagine it's possible to feel both kinds of love for two different people at the same time, but it must also be very confusing. Especially if/when the guilt kicks in, along with the fear of being found out.
So maybe she didn't stop loving you, but loved you in a different way? However, I understand that you wanted her to love ONLY YOU in all possible ways (as you loved her), and it's a hard thing to have to open your heart to her and take her back, with the risk of getting hurt again.
You know... in college I took a philosophy class where we talked about love. My professor at the time, reiterated that in some cultures the marriages were arranged because of mutual interests within the families. I was like- **** that... you have to love someone in order to be with them for the rest of your life. How gullible was I. Now, I believe there is only unconditional love for your children, and no one else. LOVE is sooooooo overrated- its almost a punch-line these days There is now REAL love.
Before I go any further, I want to refer you to this post: MM and affair aftermath.... A lot of what was said in that reply is going to apply here...so go over there and read that post, and then come read this.
* * * * * * * * * *
Oh are you back already? Okay now let's go over your post section by section.
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Quick background: I am now 3 weeks post DDay to wife's EA, somewhat PA affair that ended several months ago on its own. At her begging we are in MC, and despite my anger I'm trying to give R a real chance, for my young son if nothing else. I have transparency, her full commitment and willingness to do the heavy lifting necessary toward making this work.
I have a good question for you. Are you offering transparency, full commitment and willingness to make this work TO HER? You think that "you deserve better" and shouldn't be treated like you're worthless, so would you feel respected if you had to beg someone to be with you? I'm not saying that to some degree she deserves some anger, but I am saying that if YOU want to be treated with value and respect, treat your wife that way too. Offer to her what you want from her.
Quote:
I've gotten your input about whether R is even possible, and dealing with the other man (thanks all!)... I have worked through getting to the truth about what happened physically (polygraph to come), and am now getting through what happened emotionally. Realizing how emotionally deep she got, what I am now struggling with is that she told the OM that she was in love with him... told him she knew it was wrong, couldn't help herself, couldn't stop it. And I am just not getting past it in any healthy way at all.
Okay so that you're working through if the R is possible and dealing with the OM and OM's wife. Regarding "getting the truth" about how physical it became, may I suggest "THE POLYGRAPH AND LIE DETECTION" Committee to Review the Scientific Evidence on the Polygraph. Division of Behavioral and Social Sciences and Education. Washington, DC: The National Academies Press? In particular, chapter 8 summarizes the study, and even using scientific evaluation: "Polygraph Accuracy--Almost a century of research in scientific psychology and physiology provides little basis for the expectation that a polygraph test could have extremely high accuracy." I'm not saying I'm against polygraphing--if she is willing that's her choice--but it really does not prove the truth. The fact is, the past is past and nothing can definitively prove what did or did not happen.
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She insists she still loved me all along, but yes fell in love with this man -- and told him so (which is just a killer to hear, ain't it?). I don't know that it can be both ways... one doesn't fall back & forth (me, then him, then me again) -- that is not really "love", and that she doesn't even know what love really IS... she insists she does know, that this has all taught her exactly what love is, and has confirmed what she already had figured out she wants (me)... that it wasn't "love", it was infatuation at the time (although this period of several months, she did not figure that out and kept at it). My internal debate is that this woman I was married to for 10 years, I felt DID know what love is... which is what made it so powerful to give to someone else.
2xloser, in real life the vocalizations and lip forms may have said "I love you" but when you read that other post, do you kind of understand that she didn't "fall back and forth " in love and then out of love with you. In her rational "pre-drug addicted" mind she knew what she was saying when she said she loved you and intended to form a marriage and family with you. Now she may have been young and not fully realized what "for better...for worse" meant over a long lifetime, but she meant she loved you and intended to follow through.
But then she got just a little bit of that affair-drug. She got a bit more and more, and with the "drug addicted" amphetamine mind she said whatever she had to say to get more amphetamine. Did she have to say she had XYZ emotion? Done. Did she have to say words that sounded like what she said when she said them to you? Done. Anything to get more of that amphetamine ZING. And that is exactly what it meant to her too. The trouble is that with you, she started with some butterflies and sweaty palms (the zing) and as it matured it became more like a white hot ember rather than a blaze. Then she confused the amphetamine ZING with the butterflies and sweaty palms she first had with you. Know what I mean?
Quote:
I grapple still about R being possible here... that I just cannot get past her admission (in my mind) that she in fact "loved" him, and therefore, in the process, did NOT "love" me. That she turned her back on me/us, chased her fantasy and made it more real, gave her heart over to him. Therefore, why would I risk or believe her or want that heart back now?
Am I seeing this too narrowly, selfishly, or incorrectly?
Maybe just venting (which helps), but your thoughts are appreciated.
Well for sure there is some venting involved here. But I think you need to consider a few things. If you can not get past her affair, I suggest that you end it now and break things up now. Even in the Bible the one allowable reason for divorce is adultery (sexual immorality), so you have moral reason to just say "I can not get past this so I'm ending it now." On the other hand, if you decide to really work on this and really get past this...then you need to work HARD to stop dwelling on the past and look at the PRESENT and the FUTURE. In the present she honestly could have left you and either made it with the other man or with the OM...and before you even knew, she chose you. That means a lot! Further, in the present, she is doing the hard work to look at herself and be a better woman and wife. Are you doing the hard work to look at yourself to be a better man and husband? In the future she sees herself with you, watching your children graduate, standing together as your children walked down the aisle, and holding grandchildren. Look at the present and meet her efforts with your own. Look at the future and "Rejoice in the wife of your youth" (Proverbs 5:18)
Affaircare -
First of all, an enormous thank you for the response. That an anonymous stranger would take the time and effort just amazes me.
Thank you.
Your analogy to a drug addiction really hit home for me and got through, big time. If I had a "fog" of my own as the wronged spouse (btw thinking we need to coin a separate term for this -- maybe "The Mist"?), this way of looking at it all REALLY lifted it off me. I cannot thank you enough.
You raise a fair point about my own full commitment -- the answer is yes & no. Fully transparent and committed to participating in the process without withholding anything, but not truthfully willing to do the heavy lifting "extras" at this point. I think that will come, and I think I've made that clear. But your point of giving full respect to get it, in our MC session last night as I was venting a bit, my wife had a crying breakdown and blurted out "would I go through all of *this* if I didn't absolutely want to be with you?" It gave me pause at the time, and your words reinforce the point. While I contend that I do need to evaluate the past, I also hear you in that I need to more importantly work at using that evaluation as an input to viewing the future -- and whether I can do that with her or not.
I will think long & hard about the polygraph. I really want two questions answered: Have you told me the truth as you know it? Are there additional facts or details that you have still now consciously not shared with me?
This is the hardest thing I have ever done in my life. YOU, sir, have helped me take a big step forward to making it a bit easier, one way or the other and I thank you.
cb45 -- this all directly relates to your point... I *did* ask her, and her response was right in line with Affaircare's comments: "While I would say I meant it at the time, looking back it was more 'infatuation, like a drug I needed. You know how you write emotional things in a journal in jr. high school, and look back now and see how silly it all was? It's more like that..."
Ahhhmaaaan - totally agree and I have commented somehere in another thread -- the only real, true unconditional love that exists is between parent and child.
I'm 2 years in from finding out about wife's affairs. We are still together.
What you are experiencing is what my MC refers to as fallout from blunt Trauma. Whether you stay or bolt the effects on you body and mind do not heal quickly. The healing can and will take years... many. The facts are that you will "rastle" these contradictions over and over. It's a personal journey.
As a WS who's BS got caught up on this very same thing I can tell you listen to what Affaircare said. There were lots of moments when I knew I wasn't thinking rationally and I'd jump right back in anyway cause I just couldn't turn it loose. Doesn't change what I did, but a very very strange experience.
Before I go any further, I want to refer you to this post: MM and affair aftermath.... A lot of what was said in that reply is going to apply here...so go over there and read that post, and then come read this.
I really liked AC's post (the link). It does a really good job of explaining the "feelings" in an affair.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2xloser
cb45 -- this all directly relates to your point... I *did* ask her, and her response was right in line with Affaircare's comments: "While I would say I meant it at the time, looking back it was more 'infatuation, like a drug I needed. You know how you write emotional things in a journal in jr. high school, and look back now and see how silly it all was? It's more like that..."
Looking back on my own affair 2 yrs ago, of which I was in a very deep fog, I can see now that those "feelings" were not real. It felt good and was a high, a great ego boost, but it wasn't real life. OM wasn't with me when I was sick, he didn't see my bedhead in the morning, hear me upset/happy, during holidays, disagreeing over how to set up the DVD player, didn't know how I folded my underwear or what my favorite airline to fly is, all the little things, didn't deal with me on a daily basis. It wasn't real life. So while I felt I was developing some hardcore feelings, in hindsight I know now that it wasn't REAL. Not real life.
2X - this "love" thing is really complex isn't it?
My W had an EA with a long time friend of hers - someone she's known 20 years. As our marriage got tougher on her, she started confiding in him, and their friendship blew into an EA a few weeks before I discovered it. No PA (100% sure of it, don't ask - long story). She admitted that she fell in love with him (more recently) and out of love with me (a little before that). DDay was May 5th.
I went right to a devastation/anger combo, but mostly just pain. I told her I felt like I was just in the way. That maybe she was meant to be with the OM all this time. It took her a few days to become remorseful. That is what made me angry.
Amazingly, now that she is in full NC mode - I am feeling 100X better. It's like, with him gone, most of my pain is too. It's weird. If your WW's OM is gone, did that help your emotions? It was like the world was lifted off of my shoulders.
My W definitely feels remorse now, and is doing some heavy lifting, working on falling back in love with me. With the OM gone, we can really work on it. If she ever goes back to him for anything, I told her the marriage is over. With that clear path ahead I am not dwelling on hurt feelings. I'm treating it like a project. Work hard on the project, and it either succeeds or fails.
Maybe I'm lucky that I am able to treat it this way. I still hurt, but it's at about 20% of what it used to be. How's the OM situation on your end?
Thx all...
The OM is totally out of the picture (I have full transparency, and saw the NC)and the A had already ended several months before I discovered it. Yes it helps, but no it does not 'solve' the question for me.
Wife is absolutely remorseful, absolutely re-committed, absolutely doing the heavy lifting and legwork I require to even attempt R.
While wife has shared all details and answered all questions I have asked, I seem to still get overly engrossed in the history at times -- what I was missing as this happened, what I believed in our marriage at the time, and yes the fact that she had told the OM she "loved" him. In fact, we just finished a lengthy discussion after she'd written me replies to several questions I still had (we are now 31 days post-DDay)... she described (again) much of what others have chimed in with in this thread -- that yes she used the word, maybe even believing it at the time, but really looking back at it, it was infatuation with a fantasy and a drug-like high, not the man or the person himself, and (she says) not instead of me, but in addition to me.
In our deep discussion today, through her tears she shared with me that she's ashamed to say she didn't even recognize what true love really even IS until she observed me going through this process, through the pain... and with her eyes now opened and through her process of self-discovery (and the help of MC), she wants to give me that kind of love.
I knew my wife loved me before my EA. I had no idea how much until I hit her with my affair and watched the pain I caused, and despite what I did to her she not only forgave me but supported me when I really need it. I'm now like your wife, I hope I get to return the selfless love she gave me but certainly not this way
Affaircare -
Your analogy to a drug addiction really hit home for me and got through, big time.
If I had a "fog" of my own as the wronged spouse (btw thinking we need to coin a separate term for this -- maybe "The Mist"?), this way of looking at it all REALLY lifted it off me. I cannot thank you enough..
It's really not as much of an analogy as a fact. Read here
I personally call the LS "fog" the "Smog"... I've been researchin & working on writing a "article/post" on it...
This thread got me thinking about what love means to me when I tell my wife that I love her. And I don't really inderstand it all. I think it means the following to me:
1. She is my best friend
2. I enjoy spending time with her
3. I enjoy sex with her (I'm a guy that has to be in the top 5)
4. I am physically attracted to her
5. We enjoy the same activities and conversation
6. I think she is the best mother for my children
7. I am so attached to her that I do not want to think about life without her (yes it's true...and a little scarry)
I think love is a very short word to mean all of those things. I don't quite understand it.
The L Word 
Helping couples recover and reconcile after an affair or keep their marriages affair-free at 
Re: The L Word 
Okay now let's go over your post section by section. 
that you're working through if the R is possible and dealing with the OM and OM's wife. Regarding "getting the truth" about how physical it became, may I suggest 
