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what boundaries to set and the consequences of failing

15K views 75 replies 26 participants last post by  Bremik 
#1 ·
For the sake of argument from previous posts I would like to direct this to people that have dealt with a spouse with poor boundaries or have survived an EA or an affair- all with success in the end.

What did you do to rebuild the trust? There are always going to be wolves lurking so what boundaries can be set and how do I get convinced those boundaries are being enforced? I have thought of things like random swap phones for the day - like before she leaves for work today I just say we swap phones today so I would have her phone all day with no prior warning. Somehow she is responsible with telling me who she is with- especially if with opposite sex- and what they are doing with no " I forgot to tell you" as an excuse.

I have looked at the polygraph approach as a good starting point but from reading here there seems to be many who say don't do it. So don't know if it should be used or not. I looked it up around here and the cost would be $450 plus rental of a room- which would be a lot for us.

I have more thoughts but could add those as people respond. My wife acknowledges that I have every reason to be suspicious based on everything that has happened. She doesn't see the current co-worker as a threat but I do. I am at the point that once we set up the protocol/boundaries, separation or divorce have to be a consequence of breaking the boundaries.

Also, I have set up ways to at least do some monitoring and can use that to confirm things I am told.
 
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#2 ·
bremik,

My wife had an adulterous affair. Of course, adultery is a boundary with the possible (if not likely) consequence of divorce.

If you find that she has done things that make you suspicious of an affair, I strongly recommend good boundaries.

My boundaries, with her having had an affair are:

Conditions for NP5 to Reconcile with WW
1) Full disclosure of affair from start to finish
2) Produce all documents on the affair
3) No more lies, 100% truth, no lies of omission

In order to heal and forgive I need to know what happened. Without this I cannot forgive you and reconcile with you. If you do not answer my questions and disclose fully the extent of the affair, we need to separate.

4) No Contact with OM and any contact from him goes straight to me for joint response
Failure to maintain No Contact will result in our divorce. I have given you far too many chances and you have ignored all of them. This is your last chance.

5) Accountability for your whereabouts – who, what, when, where and responsible chaperones are required when I think it necessary

If you don’t inform me, I will let you know how you didn’t keep me informed. If you repeatedly and deliberately do not keep me informed, I will ask you to leave.

6) OK to have access to investigate and check up 24/7.

As you are not having an affair anymore, you should not be keeping secrets and you should not have anything to hide. I need to have accountability in order for us to reconcile and regain trust.

7) Go to Marriage Counseling and Individual Counseling.

You have issues you need to work on. Those issues drove you to decide to have an affair. Without being worked on, those issues will resurface and may cause you to decide to have another affair or restart the affair. You must get them worked on. Without help we cannot reconcile and need to separate.

8) Destroy letters, pictures, tokens of love / commitment / remembrance of your affair with OM. Delete him from this house and family.

I will not have you pining after OM the rest of our lives. You may think he is a friend, but he is someone who convinced you to have an affair, greatly damaged your family and possibly will have caused a divorce. I don’t think a friend is one that would tempt you to destroy your family. Remove him entirely from your life and that of your family. Continuing to hold on to his things, his mementos, and of him will be a continuance of the affair.

9) Work on being remorseful or at least doing what a remorseful spouse would do.

Try your best to be a successful rebuilder as described in the book, “How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair”.

Now having laid down those consequences, she continued the affair deep underground. The affair ended and she broke off contact. Months later, under a polygraph which she failed, she admitted to breaking all of the above boundaries.

I had questions about inconsistencies in her admissions. A second polygraph ensued and she admitted to much more -- double the length of the affair and more boundary violations including a break in NC a few weeks before the second polygraph.

I strongly recommend a polygraph. Without it I would have been driven insane with her lies and denials. It finally, for her, forced the truth out.

She has, for 2 months now, been following the boundaries.

Now I did not follow through on consequences that I said I would do. I say that is OK. You can give a stay of execution if you like. You are in charge of the boundaries. But at least they know about them and you can check up on it.

As far as checking up.

Swapping phones is fine. A deep underground affair is immune to tricks like that. A small GPS in her car would help too. Voice activated recorder velcroed to her car seat bottom, or by her favorite chair is good. Keylogger on the computer is good. RecoverIt by Brickhouse will undelete text messages deleted on an iPhone, but you will need the password.

But in my view, nothing beats a polygraph.
 
#6 ·
I think you give some good examples of how to set the potential for R to occur, but I do not agree with setting boundaries with consequences and then not enforcing them.

What good are conditions for R if they have no follow-thru. The only thing this does is to clearly establish in the waywards mind that the BS will never leave, will always forgive and that their affair really isn't all that wrong. Not following thru on established consequences would also likely lead to a decrease in credibility and respect of the BS which will again only facilitate the affair or enable future affairs.

All your wife needs to do now is figure out how to beat a polygraph and she is basically home free to keep banging whoever she feels like on the side... although- you wouldn't actually leave her anyway so I guess it doesn't really matter.

Not trying to beat you up NP5. Just adding another point of view.

Best
WD
 
#3 ·
I am not in reconciliation, my husband won't talk about it at this point but says he "can't see the future". Since I want him in my future - I have instituted the following rules upon myself.

Full disclosure

No contact with OM

Zero to little contact with our friend circle who'd known about the affair. (I waffle on this a bit, because I still believe some of them just didn't want to hurt my husband) But 95% of them ARE effectively gone.

Full transparancy. You want to check my Fb, here's my password, you want to check my texts, here's my phone, you want to check all other forms of social media, here are my logins and passwords.

Full access to email. Check it anytime you like.

I leave my phone laying around all the time. I'll go take a bath for an hour and leave it sitting right by him.

Find my iPhone app is installed on my phone and left on AT ALL TIMES.

If I say I'm going to be somewhere, that's the only place I go. If there is a change of plans, I let him know.

One that wasn't laid out but I did anyway, I was out with coworkers last week and my phone died. I left immediately so I could put my phone on my car charger and be accessible.

I only do things with females. If there are going to be males there (as in the case of my coworkers) I make sure they are "safe" - engaged or married long term and not anyone who has ever been inappropriate to me or disrespected my marriage.

No "selfies" on social media that attract male attention. Only pictures and/or statuses that involve my kids or that I'm not in any way, shape or form inappropriately clothes.

Stop all attention seeking behavior. No more talking to strangers at gas stations, no more accepting friend requests from men I don't know very well.

Deletion of about 100 people from Fb and social media - 98 of them male.

Any inappropriate contact made by anyone is screenshotted and sent directly to my husband.

And last, but biggest for me, work on my boundaries. How I allow people to approach and interact with me.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#4 ·
Following mainly for advice...

My husband has poor boundary issues with females that he works with. He is very flirtatious with them and then will lie about any personal contact with them.

Kinda what i'm here for... figure out what to do bc I hate living like this.. constant wonder.

I think we are going to start with the polygraph sometime in the next 2 months. I have to at least try that as a last resort.

As far as phones, gps and all that stuff.. it can easily be tricked with or somehow they will get around it.

I just go intuition for now... is he telling me things I need to know, letting me know about all appts and ALL days he takes call at work on the weekends.

I track his work hours and he has to provide me a timesheet every 2 weeks. That so far has eliminated a few panic attacks on myself when my hubby gets called into work at 3 am and I don't really know if that's where he is.

I feel he has a burner phone which can be stored at locker at his work- so no luck on that.
 
#5 ·
To me the boundaries are not the issue. You set them and both agree on them. Everyone's boundaries are going to be a little bit different but basically putting yourself in any situation your significant other would find inappropriate. Intentionally choosing to put yourself in situations that lead emotional attachment (arranging your day to bump into someone alot, "coincidentally" going to the same lunch spot, and dishonestly finding ways to meet someone your significant other would not approve of. It is mostly common sense and does not really have to be spelled out. But the problem is enforcement of those boundaries.
Waywards tend to use the very words that should build confidence in a relationship to make you believe breaking boundaries is okay.
Like this situation: "Why do you have 300 messages last week from that girl at your work?" she askes
"It's not a big deal don't you TRUST me? We have been together how long?"

We as loving trusting members in a marriage hear those words and start second guessing our resolve rather than digging in. Marriages should not have secrets if they do the well tends to get poisoned. It is up to the nonwawards to stay vigilant, and take action. Otherwise EA's and PA's can often just surprise us even though we really knew something was going on.
 
#8 ·
I used to have terrible boundary issues. I found Boundaries by Henry Cloud helpful--if you're not Christian, it may be a little grating, as he writes it from a Christian perspective. I still found it damn useful. It's not really about dealing with affairs as much as dealing with setting healthy boundaries in general.

Bremik, my perspective is the BS can only encourage the WS to repair the damaged trust. The WS has to take the actions to build up the walls they tore down. What you can do is set boundaries of what is and is not acceptable behavior to you; with consequences for violating those boundaries.

If you do set boundaries--and you should in every relationship--you MUST stick to them and enforce the forewarned consequences. If you don't, your significant other will view you as weak and contemptible, and they will only continue to violate more and more boundaries.
 
#9 · (Edited)
As badbane suggested, the post affair boundaries are the simplest part of the equation. For me, I saw them more as a needed consequence to her, rather than as a method to prevent her from cheating again.

The monitoring, which you say you are doing, is the better approach to reducing the chance of the latter; both openly and without her knowledge.

After a time, as she proves herself and builds your trust, you will likely find the monitoring tedious and no longer necessary. At some point you will surely think to yourself - "Enough, if she's going to cheat again, she's going to cheat. I've learned enough through this that I'll know next time".

That said, if you were like me and allowed liberal boundaries pre-affair; those should change forever. Things like GNO's, opposite sex friends, unaccounted for time. Those are for spouses who have never shown they couldn't be trusted.

As for the consequences of breaking those boundaries; there is only one that is effective; and you should have already drawn that line in the sand.
 
#10 ·
Thanks for the responses! I had given up on getting any so haven't checked back on that post. We did sit down and talk and I went all the way back to the early part of our marriage and told her my perspective on how I have viewed what has happened over the years and how we have gotten to the point of me not being able to trust her around male coworkers/ friends or just general lack of trust in her telling me important things. She seems extremely remorseful and in spite of everything I have found over the years and recently there has never been a definite time that she crossed the line. She has broken all kinds of boundaries but seemed to be very ignorant about possible consequences.

I did get the book Not Just Friends and we both are going through it. I am optimistic trust will come back. As far as the monitoring everything she has said has been legit. She is where she is supposed to be when she needs to be. That has been the biggest stumbling block for me- I honestly think she is that naive as to really not thinking of the consequences to her actions. We just have to restart the trust process is all I know.

I know my story leaves me wide open to critics but I guess this is the only way I know to handle it.
 
#38 ·
. She has broken all kinds of boundaries but seemed to be very ignorant about possible consequences.

That has been the biggest stumbling block for me- I honestly think she is that naive as to really not thinking of the consequences to her actions..
Really? She's an adult. She's got a job, she reasons and thinks rationally. She just doesn't aww shucks, a guy is talking to me, aww shucks I'll give him my number, aww shucks, he's flirting with me, aww shucks I'm crossing the boundary.

That's just one guy.

Now repeat with the next guy

Aww shucks...

not thinking of the consequences to her actions

What have been the consequences of her actions? You're literally aiding her by giving the she's so naive defense. What does she have to lose? You? No. That first time you found out she crossed the line and you walked she would have known the consequences. I put my hand to a fire I know I'm going to get burned.

Treat her like an adult, and that adult decisions have adult consequences.
 
#11 ·
Pretty sure, 99%, that your wife has been cheating right in front of you for your entire relationship until maybe recently.

She ever come clean?

You two honestly look like a bad combo.

A serial cheater with a fairly passive enabler.

Maybe you have more co-dependency going on than real love.

Love does not resemble what has been happening for your entire relationship.

Your prying may have made her screwing around less than convenient and she has eventually slowed down.

I guess if you like what you have then no problem.

You do not have a faithful wife.
Posted via Mobile Device
 
#12 ·
Pretty sure, 99%, that your wife has been cheating right in front of you for your entire relationship until maybe recently.

She ever come clean?

You two honestly look like a bad combo.

A serial cheater with a fairly passive enabler.

Maybe you have more co-dependency going on than real love.

Love does not resemble what has been happening for your entire relationship.

Your prying may have made her screwing around less than convenient and she has eventually slowed down.


I guess if you like what you have then no problem.

You do not have a faithful wife.
Posted via Mobile Device

I especially agree with the bolded part - another possibility is that she has just gotten better at hiding it with experience.
 
#13 ·
Conan no she has never "come clean" and I have never found anything that would say she has had a PA. When I was able to pull up deleted texts I never found anything bad. Some work chatter, general chit chat etc. I have GPS on her and everything she says concerning where she is at is true. I think the coworker is more interested than she thinks he is.

The texting has completely stopped. There never were any phone calls. Yes I get the idea of a burner phone but why do traceable texts on our service if you have a burner phone? If she was keeping that a secret why not keep the texts a secret?
Therein is my conflict- I do have more than one instance of my wife making bad decisions/boundaries but I have 0 physical proof of an affair. She makes horrible money decisions all the time- does that make her a crook? I am not trying to deny the possibility of an affair, I just need proof.

Can someone give me ideas of how else they could communicate and ways to check it? There company is very good about monitoring sexism/inappropriate comments etc. so I really doubt they would communicate via company emails. So, how else could they do it with their phones? The GPS has been huge for me and I have wanted to do a VAR but haven't yet- mostly because the GPS verifies she is where she is supposed to be.

I realize I look passive or foolish but the majority of people that I have followed here always comment how the rest of the marriage changes- less/no sex, less talking, distant etc. My wife has never done that and that is causing the benefit of the doubt. All I can come up with is to spell it out that this is why I don't trust you and this is what you must do to make it right. I did point out where there aren't answers to questions, and why I should leave.

So by all means ask tough questions, give me more ideas. I don't know- I just know without definite proof I can't convict and maybe she has won because of that. Thanks for responding
 
#16 ·
Can someone give me ideas of how else they could communicate and ways to check it? There company is very good about monitoring sexism/inappropriate comments etc. so I really doubt they would communicate via company emails. So, how else could they do it with their phones?
There are at least a dozen "throw away" phone apps out there now.

They load the app in less then a minute. Message back and forth all they want. Then uninstall the app.

It's the newest, oldest trick in the book.

Check the phones stored data for app's that aren't currently loaded on that phone. I think snap chat is one of the more common brands that cheaters like to use. However, I may have misquoted the name.

I'm sure other posters could list at least 4, or 5 that you could look for.
 
#14 ·
I let my wife delete my fb acct. She has my yahoo email on her phone she can check whenever. I also leave my phone wherever I set it. If she asks me who I'm texting I stop and show her on the spot. No just a second, right there right then. My phone doesn't have a password. I go to work and come home. If I stop for car parts etc. I've already told her as she puts money on my card. She has the bank info so she can see every time I use my card. I don't know how I can be anymore transparent.
 
#18 ·
I told my XW she needed to:

- Come clean on all affairs, known and unknown to me.
- Go no contact with any prior AP.
- Don't hide contact with other men or flirt with them.

Consequences were simple, we divorce. She agreed. A year later we separated and divorced. She deleted texts from a guy she volunteered with.

At first she played it off as I was the bad guy, destroying our marriage over some deleted texts. But within days the rest of the truth came out. They had been in an ongoing affair lasting over 2 years.

Didn't really matter, the deleted texts were enough to prove to me she didn't respect our marriage the same way I did and I didn't want to live my life looking over my shoulder like that. Getting the rest of the story was nice, but even if the truth hadn't come out, I would have still followed through on the divorce. The reason the truth came out was she understood that.
 
#19 ·
Does anyone know if there is a way to interpret data usage info on cell providers website? It shows times that data was used and how much. There are some 1-2 a.m. times that have some of highest data usage and was wondering if snap chat or anything like that would show up that way?
 
#21 ·
I have friend who had an affair. Her husband was demanding, dominant, and picky. From many onlooker's perspective she tolerated a lot and ultimately broke. There are different scenarios for infidelity and sometimes this occurs through no fault of the victim. If there is mutual fault, there needs to be some accountability on both sides, I will allow you access to my Facebook and schedule, but I can express my dissatisfaction if you attempt to dominate or dictate. I think healthy communication and problem-solving needs to be restored.
 
#22 ·
Ok I have a new twist/update. I had my wife's phone and was looking at it today. I found that she has indeed been emailing the coworker- want to make clear they would email due to work it is just that the emails aren't 100% work that bothers me. She got an email over a weekend about a football game not a text. So though it wasn't bad in terms of content I guess I feel it shows they have switched how they communicate. There was another round of emails last week early but they quit because his dad is in hospital and he was going to be there- got that off email. Other emails did have work content but also personal to the extent of - hope you made it in ok (snowing that day), Good morning sunshine, I am really sorry I didn't mean to ignore you yesterday (in regards to an email sent). Also there had been some texts but not in type of language like in email. For whatever it's worth she did respond to him on the snow day "my wonderful husband let me take his truck in to work since it has 4 wheel drive"- makes it seem she tried to get my name in?

So here's the question- what now? Though nothing bad was found I think it is still too personal in nature. I really need a smoking gun but feel its just a loaded gun at this point. To me its clear they have just switched the means in which they communicate and I can only find emails they have done last week- which concerns me others have been erased. I guess I feel if he is checking up on her ride to work then communication must still be pretty regular. It is really pushing boundaries I think. So what or how do I monitor things now? Was thinking since they haven't communicated since Tuesday - at least I don't think they have- Tomorrow should be interesting. I was thinking of swapping phones with her unannounced tomorrow morning and getting pretty serious about a VAR. Or is this a deal breaker and I need to have a harder more direct response to her?

If I bring it up it only will change what they do but it I say get out on something I haven't really found a lot on yet I could be overreacting or at least not presenting enough evidence to react to. I guess I need suggestions of whether to respond or keep digging. With everything that has happened is this enough to make decisive action?
 
#29 ·
Ok I have a new twist/update. I had my wife's phone and was looking at it today. I found that she has indeed been emailing the coworker- want to make clear they would email due to work it is just that the emails aren't 100% work that bothers me. She got an email over a weekend about a football game not a text. So though it wasn't bad in terms of content I guess I feel it shows they have switched how they communicate. There was another round of emails last week early but they quit because his dad is in hospital and he was going to be there- got that off email. Other emails did have work content but also personal to the extent of - hope you made it in ok (snowing that day), Good morning sunshine, I am really sorry I didn't mean to ignore you yesterday (in regards to an email sent). Also there had been some texts but not in type of language like in email. For whatever it's worth she did respond to him on the snow day "my wonderful husband let me take his truck in to work since it has 4 wheel drive"- makes it seem she tried to get my name in?

So here's the question- what now?
"Wife, I thought we had an understanding. I will NOT stay in a marriage in which my wife feels it's ok to discuss ANYthing outside of work comments with a male coworker. If you want to carry on such conversations, I won't and can't stop you. But I'm letting you know that I will not stay in this marriage if you feel you have to have that in your life, given our history. This is the last time I'm going to bring this up. Your next steps will determine mine."
 
#24 ·
Var in her care.

Any way you can surprise her for lunch one day? If she is having an affair, they may only be communicating in person, and the emails are innocuous in nature, but intended to check location and ability to meet.

What time did he send the 'hope you make it in okay' message? Was it before lunch? The fact he had to ask makes me think they don't work in close proximity and he wanted to check that she was in before moving to her location.

Don't confront with what you have. Way to easy to weasel out of, and it would reveal your source. But if you set the clear boundary that she should no longer communicate with this guy, then you have every reason to be concerned. The best way to proceed would be to increase surveillance. Toby's VAR recommendation is a good one. Dropping by work to surprise her for lunch could reveal a lot to you. Pay attention to how she dresses for work. Is there a pattern to which days she dresses for attention? If she puts on grannie panties, probably not the right day to surprise her. But if she wears her sexiest underclothing on a particular day of the week, then that's the day you go.

Or hire a PI, a good one will find out pretty quick what's going on.

It sucks to have the suspicions you have. I know, I lived that too for entirely too long. But you're not overly suspicious. Your problem is your wife has poor boundaries with the opposite sex and no respect for how that affects you. Maybe she isn't sleeping with this guy, but her patterns of contact put her at high risk to have an affair, if it hasn't in fact gone that far yet.
 
#25 ·
When he checked on her it was about 9:30 in the morning. He works across the road from her so no it wouldn't be easy for him to know when she is in.

I will take advice and work on getting VAR in. I do try to keep track using GPS.

Thanks for the input!
 
#28 ·
I just love how you make excuses for her.

You would have us believe she is the classic dizzy blonde, and not a grown woman holding down a responsible job that require some travel.

Any woman from a young age knows when a guy has the hots for her.
So keep telling yourself she just don't see it.

Now it's 1/2 AM high data usage.
Where was you when it was being used??
She could have been on face book chatting or just shopping online.
 
#30 ·
I understand your position and would say the same thing to someone else. However, when you have a wife who continually spends money without paying attention to bank balances, or doesn't check oil in a car she knows needs checked, or insists on keeping a cow because it is a pet to her even though its a liability to the herd etc it isn't a stretch to think she would be foolish enough to think she can "handle" things if it gets out of hand with the opposite sex. Her mother keeps getting stuck babysitting my wife's brother's kids that are brats and constantly complains about it - it is to point of wearing them out yet doesn't consider saying no. Her sister is on verge of divorce with a husband who may have a drinking problem and got caught in tech business decline- he never helped her do house chores, they never exchanged much for holidays or birthdays yet now he is in trouble with the whole family for the very thing. The WHOLE family is horrible with action/consequence situations so yes I feel my wife is just as bad.

That's why if she is up to no good then I need proof because actions are not enough for me- and yes I am well aware she has pushed that all beyond any normal limits
 
#31 ·
Another thing that bothers me is the data usage. She knows I monitor the phone via the service website. We have wi-fi so why do anything thru the phone service as far as data usage goes when there is our wi-fi? She is actually pretty good at paying attention to that sort of thing. By the same token wouldn't all apps like ESPN go through the wi-fi? So back to the question- what would use some of the highest data- compared to all other data uses on providers website- that time of morning?
 
#34 ·
B, from what I wrote, you may think I don't understand what and how you see this, but I do.

I'm just at my wits ends how to get you to just tell her to freaking stop.
That all the "I'm sorry" in the world means nothing, if you still feel she just don't get it.
Ask her if she knows the difference between personal and business exchanges.

B, even the aholes from before told her the guy wanted in her pants, and his steady grooming, if not squashed will bring it to pass.
So please don't tell us, a grown woman can't tell these things.

"morning sunshine". Now he has made her whole day with just two little words.
She getting her ego kibble dude. that's why it's still on.

" Wife, I've told and your ahole frinds have told you the guy wants in your pants, but since he strokes your ego, you won't tell him to cut it out, and keep it about business.
So, the next time he reach out to you on a personal level, I WILL be talking to him myself ."
 
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