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post #151 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 04:34 PM Thread Starter
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

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This is true. It is so hard to know what someone else's motivation is, why they do what they do. I missed.....not true, I ignored red flags about my X the size of Texas and paid a price for it. But even though she had previously cheated in other relationships I know our marriage was good and she herself even said that. In the end we don't always know why people do what they do or why they do it. Ultimately it doesn't matter, someone wrongs you then you have to move on, doesn't matter the reason. Sorry you are here OP but you will get through this and may one day look back at this as a great day you were freed. The first day of the rest of your life.
Thank you very much, that helps.

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post #152 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 04:47 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

I felt that way to. Amazing acceptance and support. Most will ask if maybe the two of you could work it out. I replyed no because she was with him or emailing him most of the time. That while I would fight for the marriage I wouldn't fight for her. Most got it very quickly when I put it like that.

A very few tried to push the subject harder, I calmly replied "how when she is either out with him for the week-end, texting him, or on the phone with him. Of our mutual friends and neghbors none flame thrown, but her they very quickly shunned her. I never had to say more then that.

Reality really hilt her when I bought her out of the home and she bought a townhouse. Even though her AP wife was divorcing him he chose to move in with his father.
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post #153 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 05:22 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

I will ask later, but you need to get the interstucture of the separation done and exposure. You stay - she leaves, son stays with you-visits her, she takes only personal property-50/50 split worked on and finalized, and you set up separate financial accounts-joint accounts closed.

Changing the subject to what ifs maybe I should try is a fools play. You read some posts in 2014 and I assume you have read others lately. Can you see how BS only increased the pain by not taking steps to stand strong. Read Gridcom's thread. A good guy who when blindsided like you took stock, saw what needed to be done, began and continues to change and spent 6 plus months begging her and being treated like dirt.

The only other thing you need to do is enage in intense physical activity to burn of the stress hormones running though your body. Not to get buff so you can get hotter and younger. Screw that. Do it to keep your head down.

Oh, down the road a women same age, maybe a year older, very attractive, outgoing and really shows she feels lucky to have her. You slimmer a little more stylish with a couple of new interest. That will hit home.
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post #154 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 07:10 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

Hey
This sounds eerily familiar to me. My ExW decided to leave with a man that "insert hurtful comment" because I was so "something new"
while my kid was away on camp..

This needs to be handled carefully because like any rational person your son will not believe the speed at which this happened and the indecent haste of her departure.
You need to tell him why. He will put two and two together very quickly so there is no need to go into details other than "Your Mother has told me.."

One thing you can leave out is "She loves you very much" She clearly does not love his security and wellbeing more than this other guy and this will not go unnoticed.

The idea of securing custody in Australia is largely moot after the kid hits 15. They decide. He will decide to stay at home and stay over with his mother in increasingly smaller chunks. You will need to be much more available.

Here is something you are going to find hard..

You must not get in between, buffer or otherwise interfere in the relationship between your son and his Mother. That relationship must stand or fall on its own.

As I was writing this A song popped up on Pandora.
I won't back down

Yep..
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post #155 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-04-2016, 07:13 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

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Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
Oh, down the road a women same age, maybe a year older, very attractive, outgoing and really shows she feels lucky to have her. You slimmer a little more stylish with a couple of new interest. That will hit home.
Or more likely quite a bit younger!
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post #156 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 05:57 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

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Originally Posted by Hantei View Post
Glad it worked for you. Apparently I'm not pushing for R hard enough, not fighting for the marriage, had her living in tears for the last couple of weeks using time the kid is away from home. So my emotional closeness killed or marriage in more ways that her "indiscretion".

One more gem. I have not been supportive of her career while they spent hours why him talking about her career and he was soooo encouraging. This was in a context of a discussion of what the hell did they do when spending time together if not f^$5%%g like rabbits?

For the record she always had my full support while being full time, part time (ATM) or SAHM. Including writing the CV, meeting dry runs, support in rejecting the promotions which would bring a salary increase but demand longer hours, etc.
Mate try not to buy into her bul...lsh...it. A cheater will re write the marriage history and out right lie to give her self some validation for her foul behavour.

Stay Strong
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post #157 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 10:31 PM Thread Starter
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

Well, I can honestly say I have done with that nonsense, just had enough of it. I’m probably not that person that instantly goes nuclear (which seems to be a common theme here) and was going to fight for the marriage – if there was anything to fight for. In other words if she would be making just slightest steps in that direction and putting at least hints or traces of effort. She’s clearly not into it any more so what remains for me is to just go through what needs to be done with as much dignity and self-respect as I can. If she’s moving on – as she is – I’m not going to jump through the hoops for someone who gave away what was so unique between us so easily.
Simply put she slept with the other man and I’m not playing a one-man-orchestra in this opera.


To explain why I am writing this – I have exposed over the weekend. It probably didn’t work as expected. Surely, I’ve got a lot of support from those who have been informed, though as it was totally unexpected I’ve had a lot of “you should be working things out” and when I made it clear that that is not something I can do alone the general sentiment was “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” or “are you sure you haven’t done anything that would push her into the affair” or “it is likely you two were having serious issues before you have not been telling us”. I can understand that – when I was posting that our marriage was good – it was actually good by all accounts.

What was totally surprised is the reaction of her parents (mostly mother). It looked like they are surprised but not shocked for the lack of better terms. Felt like they (she) new something is coming, requests to “try to work things out” were very brief an casual and she (my WW) seems to be getting their full support in moving on. Sure, her mother is very “my way or highway” but I would have never thought her daughter’s marriage was so irrelevant?

Anyway. I have left a message with SOB sarcastically congratulating him on ruining the marriage and asking him to meet in person. He hasn’t responded yet, but he has surely told her as she got totally insane and jumped to his defence. Quickly changed the tune to “I worry about you getting into trouble” but her initial reaction told me all I needed to know. The SOB seems not to be married so I’m not sure what else can I do.


She didn’t like the exposure and claimed that by doing so I have burned all bridges and she cannot see the marriage to be recovered from this. My next question of “did you ever see the marriage recovering from you sleeping with the other man” she said that “it was a mistake, she’s genuinely sorry, she shouldn’t have done it, and they “didn’t get it too far” (whatever the hell it means, I was biting my tongue not to ask about the “lengths and distances” if you know what I mean) but she thinks this has nothing to do with her moving on”. I’m not trying to understand her logic anymore. That connection when I understood her before she ever had to speak is gone.


Now, the interesting part. Because I have got a lot of “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” and this pissed me off, I got into the snooping mode and got hold of couple of colorful messages between them. I’m tempted to get them “published” although I know this will get in a way of a quick an civilised separation I want.
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post #158 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:00 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

Blah, blah, blah.

She's just pissed that you aren't "fighting for her".

Not that it would matter, though... because it's like you said -- you can't do it alone.

And Hell... why should you fight for her when she's got one foot out the door already?

You shouldn't.

And besides, doesn't she need someone <insert long list of petty adjectives that somehow justify her pathetic MLC>?

As for the responses you got? I wouldn't worry, as that's more or less standard fare for the ignorant and/or naive.

It's 180 time.
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Virginia: "Why can't you kids leave well enough alone? Everything was fine until you started digging around."

Burt: "You sound like a Scooby Doo villain."
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post #159 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:09 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

Stop engaging her.

If this is over, act like it.

Reread the 180 and execute it to the greatest extent possible, understanding there are some things that have to be avoided due to coparenting.

From now on, you should have three sayings when she gives you the emotional vomiting:

"I am sorry you feel that way."

"I am not okay with (yelling, lying, affairs, etc.)"

"I see it differently."

These help you avoid arguing as well as deflecting her emotions back at her.



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"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #160 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:14 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

Pure DAVO, expect more of the same. Don't think for a moment exposure caused it. It has been going on for awhile behind your back. Exposure forced it out into the open. One of the results of exposure is it protects you against rewrite. @marduk posted this a bit ago



Davo

What is DARVO?

Jennifer J. Freyd, University of Oregon

Short Definition

DARVO refers to a reaction perpetrators of wrong doing, particularly sexual offenders, may display in response to being held accountable for their behavior. DARVO stands for "Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender." The perpetrator or offender may Deny the behavior, Attack the individual doing the confronting, and Reverse the roles of Victim and Offender such that the perpetrator assumes the victim role and turns the true victim -- or the whistle blower -- into an alleged offender. This occurs, for instance, when an actually guilty perpetrator assumes the role of "falsely accused" and attacks the accuser's credibility or even blames the accuser of being the perpetrator of a false accusation.


Disclaimers

DARVO as a concept is based on observation and analysis. The author has not yet published systematic empirical research testing the coherence or frequency of DARVO. However, the first empirical research specifically testing the concept of DARVO is completed and the manuscript report is in preparation (Harsey, Zurbriggen, & Freyd, in prep).
Other observers have likely noted the same phenomena and related phenomena using different terms; the author has been informed that some people have found the term DARVO a helpful mnemonic and organizing concept.
Also the presense of DARVO is not necessarily evidence in support of the accusation of guilt; a truly innocent person may deny an accusation, attack the person making the accusation, or claim the victim role. Future research may be able to determine the probability of a DARVO response as a function of guilt or innocence. The author hypothesized that some sorts of denials and reactions such as DARVO are more likely when the perpetrator is guilty than innocent (Freyd, 1997); however this hypothesis has not yet been tested. Furthermore, even if research indicates that a DARVO reaction is more likely when there is actual guilt, it would be an error to use a DARVO reaction as proof of guilt.
For now the concept of DARVO is offered as potentially memorable and useful term for anticipating the behavior of perpetrators when held accountable, and for making sense of responses that may otherwise be confusing (particularly when victim and offender get reversed).*
History of Terminology & Writings about DARVO

Jennifer Freyd introduced the term "DARVO" near the end of a 1997 publication about her primary research focus, "betrayal trauma theory." (For more on betrayal trauma theory, see Definition of Betrayal Trauma Theory.)

The reference for the 1997 article introducing the term is:

Freyd, J.J. (1997) Violations of power, adaptive blindness, and betrayal trauma theory. Feminism & Psychology, 7, 22-32.

In that paper Freyd explained that DARVO responses may be effective for perpetrators. "...I have observed that actual abusers threaten, bully and make a nightmare for anyone who holds them accountable or asks them to change their abusive behavior. This attack, intended to chill and terrify, typically includes threats of law suits, overt and covert attacks on the whistle-blower's credicility, and so on..... [T]he offender rapidly creates the impression that the abuser is the wronged one, while the victim or concerned observer is the offender. Figure and ground are completely reversed... The offender is on the offense and the person attempting to hold the offender accountable is put on the defense." (Freyd, 1997, p 29-30)

"By denying, attacking and reversing perpetrators into victims, reality gets even more confusing and unspeakable for the real victim. .... These perpetrator reactions increase the need for betrayal blindness. If the victim does speak out and gets this level of attack, she quickly gets the idea that silence is safer." (Veldhuis & Freyd, 1999. p 274).

It didn't happen (an instance) or It rarely happens (a type of event)
It wasn't harmful
Put together they can take the form: "It didn't happen, but if it did, it wasn't that bad" or "It rarely happens, but when it does it isn't harmful." The two claims both serve to deny, but they depend upon different sorts of evidence. They may both be true, but they are sometimes somewhat suspicious when claimed simultaneously (or by the same person at different times), as for instance can occur in response to allegations of rape or child sexual abuse.

Here is the link*What is DARVO?

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post #161 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:16 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

How are you dong nailing down the proposed separation agreement.
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post #162 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:22 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

If I already posted this on your thread let me know and I will delete it.


THE 180's:

180 is a list of behaviors from Michelle Wiener Davis, the author of Divorce Busting, that will help your spouse to see you moving forward as a healthy person. I would highly suggest that any new BS begin these behaviors as soon as possible. I am convinced that if I had implemented them, I would still be married. In retrospect, I did everything besides 180. I looked pathetic. No one wants to be perceived as pathetic. 180 makes you look strong. Strong is attractive. (Making it)*

So here's the list:*
Don't pursue reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
No frequent phone calls.
Don't point out "good points" in marriage.
Don't follow her/him around the house.
Don't encourage or initiate discussion about the future.
Don't ask for help from the family members of your WS.
Don't ask for reassurances.
Don't buy or give gifts.
Don't schedule dates together.
Don't keep saying, "I Love You!" Because if you have a brain in your head, he/she is at this particular moment, not very loveable.
Do more then act as if you are moving on with your life; begin moving on with your life!
Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and independent.
Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go out with friends, enjoy old hobbies, find new ones! But stay busy!
When home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation) be scarce or short on words. Don't push any issue? No matter how much you want to!
If you're in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK NOTHING. Seem totally uninterested.
Your partner needs to believe that you have awakened to the fact that "they (the WS)" are serious concerning their assertions as to the future (or lack thee of) of your marriage. Thus, you are you are moving on with your life? with out them!
Don't be nasty, angry or even cold - Just pull yourself back. Don't always be so available? for anything! Your spouse will notice. More important, he/she will notice that you're missing.
No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment? Make yourself be someone they would want to be around. Not a moody, needy, pathetic individual but a self assured individual secure in the knowledge that they have value.
All questions about the marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may not be for quite a while). Initiate no such conversation!
Do not allow yourself to lose your temper. No yelling, screaming or name calling EVER. No show of temper! Be cool, act cool; be in control of the only thing you can control? YOURSELF!
Don't be overly enthusiastic.
Do not argue when they tell you how they feel (it only makes their feelings stronger). In fact, refuse to argue at all!
Be patient and learn to not only listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you? HEAR what it is that they are saying! Listen and then listen some more!
Learn to back off, keep your mouth shut and walk away when you want to speak out, no matter what the provocation. No one ever got themselves into trouble by just not saying anything.
Take care of you. Exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil.
Be strong, confident and learn to speak softly.
Know that if you can do this 180, your smallest CONSISTENT action will be noticed far more than any words you can say or write.
Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are feeling totally desperate and needy.
Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse. It's not always about you! More to the point, at present they just don't care!
Do not believe any of what you hear them say and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives and do so in the most strident tones imaginable. Try to remember that they are also hurting and afraid. Try to remember that they know what they are doing is wrong and so they will say anything they can to justify their behavior.
Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel. It "ain't over till it's over!"
Do not backslide from your hard earned changes. Remain consistent! It is the consistency of action and attitude that delivers the message.
When expressing your dissatisfaction with the actions of the wayward party, never be judgmental, critical or express moral outrage. Always explain that your dissatisfaction is due to the pain that the acts being committed are causing you as a person. This is the kind of behavior that will cause you to be a much more attractive and mysterious individual. Further it SHOWS that you are NOT afraid to move on with your life. Still more important, it will burst their positive little bubble; the one in which they believe that they can always come back to you in case things don't work out with the OM/OW."

Here is the link *Critical Readings For Separation and Divorce - LoveShack.org Community Forums
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post #163 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:38 PM
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

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Well, I can honestly say I have done with that nonsense, just had enough of it. I’m probably not that person that instantly goes nuclear (which seems to be a common theme here) and was going to fight for the marriage – if there was anything to fight for. In other words if she would be making just slightest steps in that direction and putting at least hints or traces of effort. She’s clearly not into it any more so what remains for me is to just go through what needs to be done with as much dignity and self-respect as I can. If she’s moving on – as she is – I’m not going to jump through the hoops for someone who gave away what was so unique between us so easily.
Simply put she slept with the other man and I’m not playing a one-man-orchestra in this opera.


To explain why I am writing this – I have exposed over the weekend. It probably didn’t work as expected. Surely, I’ve got a lot of support from those who have been informed, though as it was totally unexpected I’ve had a lot of “you should be working things out” and when I made it clear that that is not something I can do alone the general sentiment was “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” or “are you sure you haven’t done anything that would push her into the affair” or “it is likely you two were having serious issues before you have not been telling us”. I can understand that – when I was posting that our marriage was good – it was actually good by all accounts.

What was totally surprised is the reaction of her parents (mostly mother). It looked like they are surprised but not shocked for the lack of better terms. Felt like they (she) new something is coming, requests to “try to work things out” were very brief an casual and she (my WW) seems to be getting their full support in moving on. Sure, her mother is very “my way or highway” but I would have never thought her daughter’s marriage was so irrelevant?

Anyway. I have left a message with SOB sarcastically congratulating him on ruining the marriage and asking him to meet in person. He hasn’t responded yet, but he has surely told her as she got totally insane and jumped to his defence. Quickly changed the tune to “I worry about you getting into trouble” but her initial reaction told me all I needed to know. The SOB seems not to be married so I’m not sure what else can I do.


She didn’t like the exposure and claimed that by doing so I have burned all bridges and she cannot see the marriage to be recovered from this. My next question of “did you ever see the marriage recovering from you sleeping with the other man” she said that “it was a mistake, she’s genuinely sorry, she shouldn’t have done it, and they “didn’t get it too far” (whatever the hell it means, I was biting my tongue not to ask about the “lengths and distances” if you know what I mean) but she thinks this has nothing to do with her moving on”. I’m not trying to understand her logic anymore. That connection when I understood her before she ever had to speak is gone.


Now, the interesting part. Because I have got a lot of “are you sure it is not something innocent you are blowing out of proportion” and this pissed me off, I got into the snooping mode and got hold of couple of colorful messages between them. I’m tempted to get them “published” although I know this will get in a way of a quick an civilised separation I want.

After the exposure and the kind of reaction she is having,you are not having a civilized separation. .


Anyway, just tell them you have hard evidence that it is not something innocent. Does matter much anyway


Quote:
didn’t get it too far
Send her the texts you found
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post #164 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:40 PM Thread Starter
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

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Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
How are you dong nailing down the proposed separation agreement.
Thanks to all.

It is gong very well. We are on the same page here with her. I want this to end, she wants to move on. Considering he's trying to convince her she's found her true love and she's clearly buying that all this boring and vulgar staff is of no essesnse.
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post #165 of 1810 (permalink) Old 03-06-2016, 11:43 PM Thread Starter
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Re: I don't know what would be the right title

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Originally Posted by sparrow555 View Post
After the exposure and the kind of reaction she is having,you are not having a civilized separation. .


Anyway, just tell them you have hard evidence that it is not something innocent. If he is a coworker, hold the "exposure at work" card to get a things done.
No, not a coworker so I can't use the workplace card. By civilized I mean that we are not fighting hard over assets and legal issues.
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