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How Long Is One A Liar, A Cheater, and an Adulterer?

9K views 59 replies 29 participants last post by  GusPolinski 
#1 ·
In a fit of anger, I called my lying, cheating, adulterer wife a "Lying, Cheating, Adulteress."

She became upset with me because she was no longer those things. Yes she did do those things, but they were in the past and she is no longer that.

So, if you lie, you're only a liar until the sound of your voice fades? Or are you a liar until you confess the truth?

If you are a cheater or an adulterer, are you only one until you dismount? Are you cheating for a few minutes and then your not cheating for a week and then cheating again for a few minutes? Or are you a cheater until you confess and break off the affair?

Are you a liar and cheater until the pain you have inflicted upon others fades into a distant memory?

Or are you an adulterer for life?

If you rape someone, are you a rapist for life?

If you murder someone, are you a murderer for life?

If you a child predator, and you stop, is not your location known so that the families with children around you can protect themselves.

My (ex?) wayward wife says that it was consensual between two consenting adults and that it is different than rape.

Legally, it is not against the law to become an adulterer. But that does not mean it is without a victim. The victim of adultery may feel more pain that a rape victim, at least that is what some rape victims say whom also are victims of adultery.

Does the fact that adultery is legal mean that the title of "adulterer" is only temporary? Or if you commit adultery, are you forever an adulterer? If not, how long does that title apply?
 
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#2 ·
You need to get your anger under control because you have become downright abusive. You refused to take any advice in the beginning thinking you knew best. Well, you didn't know best and now you're pissed about it.

It's gotten to the point that I wouldn't blame your wife if she divorced you. You're mean & controlling. The perfect traits of an azzhole.
 
#4 ·
Why even ask this question? Why bring legality into it? There is no simple answer.

Grammatically, she was a liar, she was a cheater, she was an adulteress. Why? Because at the time she was lying, cheating and committing adultery. If she is not, presently doing those things, then she "is" not one now. In the present tense, she is one who lied, she is one who cheated, and she is one who committed adultery.

In another sense, she is one who has proven that she can do all of those things, and did all of those things, so like an alcoholic who has not touched a drop for decades, she is still those things under the right circumstances. In that sense, just as the non drinking alcoholic states, "I am an alcoholic", she is those things.

Others say, she is a former liar, former cheater, etc. Sort of like the grammatical concept above.

In the end, what matters is what YOU think. If you think of her as those things, then, to you, she is those things. After all, you are the one who is married to her and who is sticking with her. Therefore, if at your core, she is those things, then she is. If she is no longer those things to you, then she is not.

I am perplexed by your question because from your history on two different boards, it did not matter when she actually was those things (in the grammatical sense described above) as a result, why does it matter to you?

Finally, if she remains those things to you, SHE may not wish to remain with you because you will treat her accordingly. That is why I said that it only matters what YOU think about her.
 
#7 ·
It very much mattered to me then. I was told by her that they were just friends and I believed her, foolishly. Then when I found out they were more, I was told that she would divorce me if I forced her to stop. I foolishly believed she would not commit adultery and she used my near absolute trust to hurt me much further. When I found out she had had sex with him it killed me.

I find your answer, "What do YOU think" as key. How can a definition of someone be defined by what another thinks? While I have some trust now, I am still hurting terribly by what she did. So to me I still FEEL like she is an adulterer. I still FEEL like a cuckold. I still FEEL that she doesn't understand fully what she has done and arrived at what remorse she can feel.

I feel that there will be a point where she will fully understand how and why she broke bad and that she is working on herself to make herself safe again (or as much as she can). Perhaps I will reach a point where the pain fades and is a distant memory. Also, maybe she will have made amends to me in some way to make up for a piece she has done. The problem I still have though is that she never has admitted that she is an adulterer. It jumped from "YOUR CRAZY AND CONTROLLING" to "What I have done in the past was wrong...". Somewhere in there I need a space to call a spade a spade.

Now I have not ever called her any names that I could have called her. OK, I did call her a "jerk" once. Blondilocks, I am so non-controlling it's a personality issue for me. Yes, I was in denial and I was trusting. No, I didn't act quickly and divorce her like you all told me to do and I am now suffering as a result. But she is choosing to stand with me now and take my hurt and my pain because she wants this marriage to recover and she wants to learn to be a better person, as do I. I carried the **** for two years and now it's her turn to carry a little too.

Thanks for your input.
 
#9 ·
Why focus on the label? Why focus on what was done in the past? The only thing you can do with the past is learn from it. Both the betrayer and the betrayed.

My husband had a 10 year EA. I don't look at him as a "cheater". I consider him someone who betrayed me, who better damn well not betray me in the future. I betrayed him, and I will not betray him in the future.

I'm focusing on being a better wife, a better person, a person who will never do these things again. What I did 3 years ago does not define who I am today or who I will be tomorrow. It will force me to look at myself as a whole, who I was then and who I want to BE now. And it should be the same for my husband, and I think it is.

There's no need for labels as to what to call someone if they are genuinely trying to change. If they are still exhibiting the same behaviors, the lying, the cheating, then yes they are those things. If they are trying to grow and change, leave the labels behind.
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#10 ·
I didn't tell you to divorce her. But, I'm telling you now that if you don't get the anger under control where you are not calling her at work and raging at her or raging at her at home, she may very well leave you. It doesn't sound like that is what you want. You say you're not controlling, but that is exactly what you did with the finances. You've still got the problem your wife has with your family.

It's too late for you to work this the way you should have worked it in the beginning, but that does not give you license to take out your bad decisions on your wife. Tell her flat out that you want to hear her say she was an adulteress. If that gets your motor running, more power to you. Or, just file for divorce and put both of yourselves out of your respective miseries.

You may not realize it, but the raging is just as hard on you as it is on her. Want to drop dead while in the midst of a rage? Keep it up.
 
#11 ·
I'm with Bigfoot.

Technically she WAS those things. You cannot say she IS those things unless she is currently doing those things.

But let me tell you a little secret that I had to discover about myself in the weeks after I discovered my wife's EA.

Abusing her as a consequence for her EA was not justice. It was just abuse.
 
#12 ·
Why are you still with a woman you clearly hate.. If you forgave her, it means you do not keep throwing it in her face. It not, divorce and get on with your life.

Yes you are in the wrong now. Pain still yes, your wifes fault no. You are the one causing the pain now trying to R.

You are unable to forgive her.........
 
#15 ·
Guy, I have had papers for divorce drawn up and she has seen them. She realizes that I will likely divorce her now. She never even considered that I would do so while she was in the affair, if what she is telling me now is truthful. I feel, as many do, that infidelity kills a marriage. I view my marriage as now in hospice, but hoping for some miracle. Why is it in hospice? Because it seems to me what she did was a deal breaker for me. I don't want that to be the case and I am trying to figure a way out of it.

LosingHim, Why focus on the label? I don't think I should be but there is something there that really matters to me. If a person who raped you and walked off free without consequence came up to you and said, "I am not a rapist". You would say, "Yes you are!" If that same person was did 2 years in jail and was divorced by his wife and was obviously remorseful, came up and said, "I was a rapist" You would be much more inclined to say, "yes, you were, but are no more."

There's no need for labels as to what to call someone if they are genuinely trying to change. If they are still exhibiting the same behaviors, the lying, the cheating, then yes they are those things. If they are trying to grow and change, leave the labels behind.
I agree entirely. There is a point where we are not rugsweeping this, but there is also a point where you become resentful and abusive. For many months people told me, "Find you anger!", "Realize what she is doing and admit it to yourself", "Stop rugsweeping!", "Take your wife off the pedestal". OK, I have done that and I am coming to terms that the woman I married is not or was not the kind of person I thought I married. If I cannot let this go, then I cannot remain married to her. She knows this and I know this. I believe she is not cheating any more. I believe she is still hiding some of the truth, thinking it will hurt me more, which is true. The behaviors that she exhibited: Selfishness, entitlement, disrespect, and abusiveness, were there a decade before the affair. I know she cannot change herself in a week or a month or a year. It is and will remain an effort for a lifetime. I require and am working on that same effort to change me.

Blondi,
But, I'm telling you now that if you don't get the anger under control where you are not calling her at work and raging at her or raging at her at home, she may very well leave you. It doesn't sound like that is what you want. You say you're not controlling, but that is exactly what you did with the finances. You've still got the problem your wife has with your family.
Anger is not my vice. I have become, in my life, an expert at stifling it and ignoring it or controlling it. What I have expressed in the past three years is about what she expresses when the dishes aren't done. Lying or a deception is about control, so I agree with you there, so I have work to do on that. Part of expressing my anger, which is so very rare, is my work in being more authentic and open. I owe that to her to be open and honest about my feelings. I agree that anger is bad for you, but resentment is worse. But anger is a secondary emotion that derives it's energy from pain--the pain I feel from being devalued and losing the cherished relationship I thought I had with my wife.

Marduk,
Abusing her as a consequence for her EA was not justice. It was just abuse.
I'm not sure how you abused your wife, but discussing the EA is very necessary. Was your wife immediately remorseful or did she tell you to **** off as she drove off to be with another man? I watched her do that and the sight of it burns me to this day.

Seven times I discovered her lying and cheating, and told her to stop the affair and I forgave her. Each time she took that forgiveness and stuffed it up my ass. She asks for it again, this time with full knowledge that what she did all those times was a PA.

But what I see in your response is perhaps what I am after: Justice.

When a thief steals something, he is a thief until it is returned or until he serves a sentence. If he knows what he stole and does not return it he remains a thief.

But in this case my wife has given away something that cannot be returned. There is no way she can give back what was taken. What compensation can she give? Perhaps that is why the bible gives the punishment as stoning.

What many betrayed spouses choose is divorce and disclosure. That is the consequence of cheating. My wife is asking that I do not divorce her and to not disclose her cheating. How then can we set things right? Until we do she is still the thief that retains that which she stole. Additionally the other adulterer has moved on to other prey. My wife, due to fear of disclosure, has asked me to withhold any action against him. Where in this life can I find even the smallest measure of justice?

One thing is for sure, I will not get justice by calling her an adulterer. You all are right about that.

Maxo and ABHale,
Why are you still with a woman you clearly hate.. If you forgave her, it means you do not keep throwing it in her face. It not, divorce and get on with your life.

Yes you are in the wrong now. Pain still yes, your wifes fault no. You are the one causing the pain now trying to R.

You are unable to forgive her.........
I do not hate her. I love her very, very much. She also loves me the same. That is why I'm not giving up on this and divorcing.

I am just in the position here where I cannot forgive her. I already forgave her seven times and she threw the R in the trash. It is too much. So how do I accept and move on -- that is what I am aiming for. If God can answer my prayers and give me the ability to forgive, great! I'm just not seeing it right now.

If I were to divorce her and expose her (which divorce certainly would do) it would be her worst nightmare, at least that is what she is telling me. I know living with someone who is resentful and angry is no way to live. I've been there for the last decade and I wouldn't recommend it. Her resentment is gone now. She says it has vanished. Well it hasn't gone, it's just been transferred to me.

I just have to figure out how to digest it and deal with it. Somewhere in my dealing with it lies justice.

I'm just trying to make my way here guys. Thanks for your responses.
 
#18 ·
Guy, I have had papers for divorce drawn up and she has seen them. She realizes that I will likely divorce her now. She never even considered that I would do so while she was in the affair, if what she is telling me now is truthful. I feel, as many do, that infidelity kills a marriage. I view my marriage as now in hospice, but hoping for some miracle. Why is it in hospice? Because it seems to me what she did was a deal breaker for me. I don't want that to be the case and I am trying to figure a way out of it.

LosingHim, Why focus on the label? I don't think I should be but there is something there that really matters to me. If a person who raped you and walked off free without consequence came up to you and said, "I am not a rapist". You would say, "Yes you are!" If that same person was did 2 years in jail and was divorced by his wife and was obviously remorseful, came up and said, "I was a rapist" You would be much more inclined to say, "yes, you were, but are no more."



I agree entirely. There is a point where we are not rugsweeping this, but there is also a point where you become resentful and abusive. For many months people told me, "Find you anger!", "Realize what she is doing and admit it to yourself", "Stop rugsweeping!", "Take your wife off the pedestal". OK, I have done that and I am coming to terms that the woman I married is not or was not the kind of person I thought I married. If I cannot let this go, then I cannot remain married to her. She knows this and I know this. I believe she is not cheating any more. I believe she is still hiding some of the truth, thinking it will hurt me more, which is true. The behaviors that she exhibited: Selfishness, entitlement, disrespect, and abusiveness, were there a decade before the affair. I know she cannot change herself in a week or a month or a year. It is and will remain an effort for a lifetime. I require and am working on that same effort to change me.

Blondi,

Anger is not my vice. I have become, in my life, an expert at stifling it and ignoring it or controlling it. What I have expressed in the past three years is about what she expresses when the dishes aren't done. Lying or a deception is about control, so I agree with you there, so I have work to do on that. Part of expressing my anger, which is so very rare, is my work in being more authentic and open. I owe that to her to be open and honest about my feelings. I agree that anger is bad for you, but resentment is worse. But anger is a secondary emotion that derives it's energy from pain--the pain I feel from being devalued and losing the cherished relationship I thought I had with my wife.

Marduk,

I'm not sure how you abused your wife, but discussing the EA is very necessary. Was your wife immediately remorseful or did she tell you to **** off as she drove off to be with another man? I watched her do that and the sight of it burns me to this day.

Seven times I discovered her lying and cheating, and told her to stop the affair and I forgave her. Each time she took that forgiveness and stuffed it up my ass. She asks for it again, this time with full knowledge that what she did all those times was a PA.

But what I see in your response is perhaps what I am after: Justice.

When a thief steals something, he is a thief until it is returned or until he serves a sentence. If he knows what he stole and does not return it he remains a thief.

But in this case my wife has given away something that cannot be returned. There is no way she can give back what was taken. What compensation can she give? Perhaps that is why the bible gives the punishment as stoning.

What many betrayed spouses choose is divorce and disclosure. That is the consequence of cheating. My wife is asking that I do not divorce her and to not disclose her cheating. How then can we set things right? Until we do she is still the thief that retains that which she stole. Additionally the other adulterer has moved on to other prey. My wife, due to fear of disclosure, has asked me to withhold any action against him. Where in this life can I find even the smallest measure of justice?

One thing is for sure, I will not get justice by calling her an adulterer. You all are right about that.

Maxo and ABHale,

I do not hate her. I love her very, very much. She also loves me the same. That is why I'm not giving up on this and divorcing.

I am just in the position here where I cannot forgive her. I already forgave her seven times and she threw the R in the trash. It is too much. So how do I accept and move on -- that is what I am aiming for. If God can answer my prayers and give me the ability to forgive, great! I'm just not seeing it right now.

If I were to divorce her and expose her (which divorce certainly would do) it would be her worst nightmare, at least that is what she is telling me. I know living with someone who is resentful and angry is no way to live. I've been there for the last decade and I wouldn't recommend it. Her resentment is gone now. She says it has vanished. Well it hasn't gone, it's just been transferred to me.

I just have to figure out how to digest it and deal with it. Somewhere in my dealing with it lies justice.

I'm just trying to make my way here guys. Thanks for your responses.
Sounds as if you married an abusive , personality disordered woman, if your description of her is accurate. These folks do not change, IMO.
 
#21 ·
Your last posts reveal so much. Throughout this whole long annoying history you dithered, rattled your sabres, and railed all while crying at the thought of having to actually go into battle. Now you got what you wanted and now you rail, sabre rattle and dither again and cry at the thought of whatever you call your relationship.

You love the concept of her. You can't square the fact that she is human and a broken, deceitful, cheating one at that. You kept your marriage like a possession, but now look at it and see how mangled and dirty it was.

Try this: recognize that you put her on a pedestal. Fix what ever is wrong with you that made you do that. Find out why you were so pitifully Co dependent and blind to obvious facts. Fix that. Then realize that she is a screwed up person too. Let her fix that. Then, maybe stay married, get divorced, or move apart for a while.

Right now, all you want is her to obey, comply , and validate you. That will not work. You guys are so messed up and don't think that you are as bad as you really are. Get help. Professional help. Expensive, in depth, experienced, highly recommended professional help. It is your only hope whether you stay married or not.
 
#24 ·
Maybe or the other real question he needs answer to is this:
Yes, it is okay to think she is always a cheater.
Yes, it is okay to leave her because your trust is fully broken.
No, it isn't okay to continually punish her because you feel this way. No one is right and no one is wrong in this thread, it is ALL semantics based arguments.

If you believe "once a cheater always a cheater" you are not wrong IN YOUR LIFE.
If you feel a person loses the title of cheater once they are redeemed you are right IN YOUR LIFE.

If you are looking for the right answer from others, concerning your life, it's a fool's errand. Why? We all tend to answer, even the more even keeled posters, based on our experiences in OUR LIVES.
 
#27 ·
I am very bitter. I do not know how long I will be so, but I will not be one forever. Sooner or later this will be resolved. I do have power, I know, to make huge mistakes here. Perhaps the worst is to chose not to do anything.

One option is to divorce. The other is to expose, either in partial or full. Another is to sue for Alienation of Affection. IC for her and me and MC for us both.

What I will not do is to rugsweep. I've done that too long. She and I will visit and revisit this affair issue until I see that she firmly understands that it so wasn't worth it, that she sees what a miserable little man he was, how she was played and used, how she tortured me, and how cruel it all was.

I don't do this to inflict pain upon her or to get revenge. I feel the divorce option would be much more effective if that were my goal. My goal is to motivate her enough to change herself to be better. She is motivated and she is changing. But I know if I let up too soon she will stop her improvement.

On the other side I need to change too. You mentioned "victim". Yes, I feel like a victim. I need to work on me actively choosing what I do because I WANT IT FOR MYSELF, not because I'm scared or I'm hurt or I'm used to it or I'm hiding from something. So I need to end this victim mentality by:

1) Admitting what I want
2) Being honest with who I am and who my wife is
3) Figuring out what is right for me and my children and moving towards it
4) Being an authentic "me" that my WW can either love or leave.

Nowhere in there is a place for resentment. Not with her, not with me. Only when I am confident and safe, can I be a good husband to her. Only when she has fixed herself and become a better person can she be a good wife again.
 
#28 ·
At this date, exposure is vindictive and an attempt to get justice while punishing your wife. I remember your thread and went back to refresh my memory. You were warned and argued people like me off your thread. You dealt with NONE of the true trauma and have become fully bitter. Her cheating is not your fault, but the misery and bitterness you are experiencing now is 100% your fault.
 
#30 ·
Your point number 4 is your undoing. It is just another way of blaming yourself for her cheating and in the end all you would do is beg her to come back, if she chose to leave and then you'd pine away forever until she accepted that you knew what was best for all involved.

Your lecturing her so that she can see that it was not worth it is proof of the fact that you have a very unbalanced view of this relationship. Hence, if she left you, you would do what I said in the first paragraph.


I repeat, get yourself some professional help.
 
#35 ·
I agree with @Blondilocks to a degree. When I first started chatting with NewPhoenix5 he was a very nice guy, very trusting of the world. Since then (well since everything came to light) it's clear that he's been abused, her cheating was just a symptom of the bigger problem.

Even to this day her inaction qualifies as abuse. She left a man bleeding on the side of the street yet will not bend over and offer him a hand to help him stand up.

However he's fighting back, and it's changing him. He either needs to change the situation (expose) in the event that it changes her. Because it's clear he'll never divorce her until every single option has been eliminated and given the changes in him I (disagreeing with a previous poster) feel that now is the time to consider the nuclear option of exposure. He's not going to divorce her until he's tried everything, so that's why I recommend taking the final option.

If he does not do this then he will be dead inside, and his children need a dad.
 
#45 ·
The hardest lesson in life [to one who really cares] is to back away from heads that are too hard to learn and too blind to see.... SunCMars

I too have a hard head. And like a formidable crocodile, have a vulnerable soft belly, that only a steely and reasoned response can pierce.

Onegai shimasu saikyo, Hime
 
#37 ·
To answer the question in the original post: forever.
It's a character trait. You can't shed character traits.

Now Phoenix, most people have drawn on metaphors using physical imagery and scars.
I went through heaps of abuse, and the person that emerged on the other side is not the same as the person that went through.

Now you're bitter and angry. You have every right to be. So was I.
You want justice (or some revenge) in some form. But you know the very nature of R means you accept the injustice thrust upon you.
You want your WW to realize how terrible of a person she is, but she doesn't want to face that. Because very few cheaters want to look in the mirror and admit they're an awful, disgusting, egocentric person. And she hasn't. And you can't force her to (or won't). And because you're a nice guy, and you want to be seen as a good father/husband, you're staying in a position where you're less than a doormat.
And now, you're here.
Angry, lashing out, confrontational, bitter, resentful, and wondering where to go or what to do next.



I was like that for a long time, and much like you (though probably with more alcohol). And I stayed in a bad situation far longer than anyone should, and had several legitimate reasons just like you can probably list off as to why you didn't divorce your wife when this all blew up. But in the long run, this was a terrible mistake.
Because it eventually stopped. All the pain I was feeling, all the rage I had, all the injustice, everything I wanted, it left me. But I didn't have some awakening. And the negative feelings weren't the only thing that left me.


It all left because I finally snapped. After everything I was forced through, part of me eventually shut down. It wasn't sudden, it was slow and gradual. And only in hindsight can I see it.
I remember one time I said something that caused my sister to break down crying in front of me, and I felt nothing. No guilt, remorse, didn't even give her a consolation hug. The only relative of mine that didn't treat me like crap while everyone else was on the bandwagon of hate, and I lost any ability to even care for her. I still don't feel guilty about it, but I know I should.

Phoenix, the reason I tell you this is because you are staying in a very toxic situation.
Right now, your anger is pointed at your WW.
If you don't remove the toxic portion of your life, it becomes a weed and spreads.

You can argue with me, and say that you would never let that happen. You would never let this extremely strained relationship to interfere with your personal life, your kids, etc.
But if one of your wife's AP (because it can't be you, that's too easy) went back in time and told you on your wedding day that your soon-to-be-wife would cheat on you with him and that she would treat you like trash, would you believe him? Or say he's wrong, and marry her anyway?
I'd bet on the latter.

So, with another person in the 'future' telling you to hit eject before you become an apathetic, uncaring, unloving, emotionless person, will you listen?
 
#39 ·
To answer the question in the original post: forever.
It's a character trait. You can't shed character traits.
One does not need to shed a character trait to overcome it. Even if adultery must be managed One Day At A Time, a person can still learn from the past.

Over-eaters can learn to manage their weight.
Alcoholics can successfully overcome their addiction
Adulterers can become good spouses.

Think about the worst thing you've ever done in your life. Should we stamp your forehead with an icon declaring to the world the fundamental character flaw that was exposed on that day, or do you think you might have learned a lesson, not to repeat that same transgression going forward?
 
#38 ·
I think linguistically these are terms that have unspoken statutes of limitations associated with them. She earned all of those character labels and if she goes a certain period of time proving that she is none of them, then it won't be correct anymore to say she 'is a liar, cheat, and adultress.' If she cheats again, then the clock on the statute is reset.

Given her behavior in your marriage, I would say that she is still a liar, cheater, and adultress. Let some time pass where she is reliably honest and honorable & those words won't be valid as descriptors.

My .02.
 
#42 ·
NP, I, for one, am not asking you to improve your treatment of your wife. I am a fairly vengeful person. I would encourage you to drag her through the dirt to hell and back until she gets up and leaves.

She has never been remorseful, has never got on her knees begging and grovelling, snot nosed, for your forgiveness. She has been quite haughty and in her mind, her affair was fully and completely justified.

She is not moving away from that line of thought - at best she is seeing that perhaps she shouldn't have had an affair with this particular sh!the@d, but still believes that you and circumstances and her health and the dark side of the moon all drove her to do it. In her mind maybe she should have had an affair with someone more reliable etc.

So I can understand your behaviour. However … longer term … and for the well being of you and your children - stop this by getting rid of her and trying to become the nice person you once were. That is a healthier approach than keeping her around as a punching bag (no matter how much she deserves it).
 
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#44 ·
Well said, Manfromlamancha.

Though, one of Phoenix's greatest strengths is, never quiting, never giving up.

But, his own Mettle will break before his wife's Resolve will fracture. Hence, his greatest strength will destroy its own vessel.

OP re-lives his Groundhog Day at Don Quixote hacienda, executing fruitless tilting at a Wayward Wind Mi·la·dy.

OP, let it go, let her go.

All the Kings Men and all the Kings Horses could not put your Frumpty Dumpty Wife, together again.
 
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