Oh and one other followup. I know you will probably flame me for saying this but I don't think she is having multiple exit affairs. You are looking for any excuse to end this. If you read my story in the Long Time Reconciliation thread or whatever the heck its called you are doing the exact same thing I did. You are looking for a reason for her to blow it so you can extricate yourself from this marriage without feeling guilty. What you don't understand is that by doing that you are blocking reconciliation. And your problems will not get solved that way anyway. You need IC to help you deal with your feelings so you don't develop PTSD symptoms. You need to heal as much as she does and then you need to heal together whether you stay a couple or not.
I have plenty of excuses to end it already and decided to last Tuesday. I had given her my commitment that if she could pass the polygraphy I would open myself to reconciliation, but that hasn't happened yet and I'm not going back on my commitment. At some point I have to draw my line in the sand and heal for my own sake and my daughters' sakes.
This - not opening up to R unless certain conditions are met - is my line in the sand. So far, it has been one thing after another... a sick variation of trickle truth where one issue du jour rolls into the next one and the next one and new deceptions are uncovered. Beowulf... you're right maybe she didn't have intentional exit affairs, but damn if it doesn't look that way to me. There's even a nice email where she and her Master go on and on about how to ensure that I divorce her and they win. Maybe it wasn't her INTENT to have it be an exit affair, but she sure helped him ensure it is one.
It isn't an ultimatum. It's my realization that I will never ever be able to trust her until all the truth is out there and I have yet to see it. We'll see. After talking with the IC and my bishop, I've decided that if my bishop asks me to stick it out and open up even without the polygraph I will... what have I got to lose really?
I asked for 3 things for R:
1. Is she an in-closet lesbian or bisexual that NEEDS lesbian action?
2. Is she a serial cheater?
3. If we can resolve 1 and 2, we can address the affairs that actually happened.
Today, we are no closer to these 3 things than we were on 9/28/11 DDay. My wife just keeps rolling along from one issue du jour that magically explains everything to the next. Right now it's sex addiction. Last week it was porn addiction. The week before that it was this ******* harrassing us and posting her videos, etc. The week before that it was BDSM fetish. Next week or month, she'll get tired of the sex addiction thing and discover a new one. I have enough excuses to leave. I have no reason to stay. She's moving out Feb 1st unless she passes the polygraph or my bishop asks me to sincerely and finally open myself to R... and he will have a mountain of questions from me if he does. Sex addiction really? And treatment for that is what - a bunch of sex addicts all talking about how addicted they are? How does that even work?! How do you hold yourself accountable to a recovery process when... nevermind, I don't even see how this works, why it would work, or that it is even really real. There are no withdrawals. Sometimes I swear... am I profanity addict?
In Nov when I knew there was more to the "platonic friendship" than she was letting on, I set 3 goals for myself.
Goal #1. I had a vision of my kids happy and jumping on a trampoline in the sun. I wanted to see that become a reality and so I made it happen Christmas Day. It was beautiful and a memory I hope my epilespy doesn't steal from me.
Goal #2. I wanted my kids to see me talk about spiritual things fearlessly in front of a group of people and the opportunity presented itself this past Sunday at church. My oldest daughter went up and stood with me. It was very good and I believe they will remember my beliefs in a higher power and tie it back through my times with them... I hope they remember this when they are with their mother encircled by wolves and they feel alone.
Goal #3. I am going to keep this one private to myself in case my wife is reading this thread.
When all of these are satisfied, I am going to make a personal inventory of my life, assess where I am, assess where my wife is, and make some permanent and irrevokable decisions I will act on in such a way that even I won't be able to take it back. Like an avalanche starting, the momentum will carry me past this moment into the next either with or without my wife.
Beowulf, I love making love to my wife. She is everything I ever wanted in a wife. I know there were good and bad times, but I can't remember the good times anymore unless I read my journal... and then it's just an intellectual recognition that a good time happened. It is humbling to know that all this time I was little more than a sex toy to her and while I was in the moment with her, she was elsewhere.
Yes, my wife knows about the voices. Talking to the IC made them louder and yesterday was an awful day.
You need to stop making decisions to do things which are "irrevocable by even me" while you are hearing voices.
These voices mean that you need to immediately talk to a professional and get help for your raging emotions.
You're currently walking through he11, and you're letting the demons get to you.
You're talking in huge dramatic phrases at a time you should be seeking peace - patience - and kindness
You're desperate to "act" and do something at a time when you should be slowing things down and letting time work it's magic.
Frankly, you're words are scaring me. You're a good man who has been pushed way to hard to the point of breaking.
You're wife has done awful awful things. Yes. It also seems that she isn't honestly very bright. She's a follower who very stupidly let herself be led by an idiot over the internet, and by a lesbian at work. She's an easy mark for people who would take advantage of her and use her.
You married this woman and pledged to protect her. She is so very very much in need to of this protection by you for the rest of her life. She hasn't got the sense or the internal emotion fortitude to always choose the smart right choice. Instead she let's herself be taken for a ride.
She's jumping from thing to thing to thing - not because she's trying to mess with you - it's because she frankly doesn't have it in her to figure out the problem. She's being asked to fix herself and it's way way beyond her to do that. She needs external guidance and protection in this journey - from her husband and from others.
She did those evil things not because she had a master plan and was following it - she did them because others told her too. Her deepest failing is that she is naive and weak.
The bouncing from explanation to explanation is because she is desperate to understand how she could have been so weak and stupid.
She isn't finding the answers in those various theories because the real answer is simply that she wasn't thinking, she wasn't smart, she wasn't in control. She was letting herself be driven and taken advantage of by nasty people who used her.
So stop talking scary dramatic talk.
Understand she's your wife and she's a person who has made really really bad choices due to influence from evil people.
Understand that as her husband, you signed up to protect her and guide her especially through the darkest times. Well sir those times are now.
To win this battle YOU need to steal yourself. If you're hearing voices - you need to talk to a real psychiatrist and tell them to go. The only voices you need to hear are yours, your wife's, your children, friends, and your faith's leaders.
We don't get through darktimes like this by dramatic actions and lines in the sand. We get through darktimes by hard work, patience, and using our intelligence and falling back on our core values.
TT is always par for the course when it comes to WS. It's unfortunately a byproduct of the fog and it's very rare that it doesn't occur. My wife ended the A on her own and I still got some TT. It happens.
If I am not mistaken hasn't your W already taken a polygraph that came back inconclusive? I may be confusing this with another thread. Polygraphs are not always accurate. I think a better measure of her remorse and willingness to make things right is her actions.
I do not believe she is a sex addict but the way you talk about the treatment is quite disingenuous considering you are on TAM talking to a bunch of recovering BS and WS looking for insight from others that have been there before. And you don't see how that works?
You are going to have to open up with or without a polygraph and whether you stay with your wife or not. It is called recovery and if you want to heal you will have to open up regardless.
Is she a closet lesbian or bisexual. Why would you ask that question? Because she had a fling with another woman. My friend you really need to read up more on women and how they think. They aren't like men. They're more open to emotional connections and sometimes gender matters less than other factors. Frankly I don't know many women who haven't at least wondered what it would be like to be with another woman. Most will not admit it but if you noted the popularity of programs like "The L Word" then you already know that's true. If she hasn't been looking before for a lesbian relationship I'm not sure why you would condemn her to that lifestyle in your mind.
Is she a serial cheater? Before this unfortunate period in her life was she promiscuous? Did she cheat before? My wife had an affair where actual sex took place and I wouldn't call her a serial cheater. Your W's affair was an EA and it took place online with the OM thousands of miles away. Her A with this OW took place in that same sphere of time when she was confused and in a fog.
Can you address the affairs is the better question. I know you have been and continue to go through a lot but I'm starting to get the feeling that your W is trying and you just can't find it in your heart to forgive. Whether you stay with her or not I think you need IC in order to address your issues. I know she did some really stupid things and any affair is heart wrenching but I've seen couples recover from far worse than this. The question is do you really want to recover or just hold onto your pain like a bulldog with a steak.
I fear for your family also. Your mental and medical condition both need to be under professional care. What can that hurt? Your kids need you whole and in one piece being their father, leading their family and making wise decisions.
I had two uncles that went through similar trauma and they did not get help until it was two late. They were never the same after that.
Please listen to Beowulf and Shaggy. These are the two wisest posts I have seen on TAM.
After my wife ended her affair and we were trying to fix our marriage I was really bottling up my emotions and waiting for her to screw up so I could leave her with a clear conscience. Guess what? Other than a few minor missteps she held the course. Did I appreciate her efforts? Did I respect her willingness to do the heavy lifting? NO
I got frustrated and unleashed a tidal wave of hate and venom that still has me shaking my head to this day. I reduced my remorseful wife to a quivering pile of fear. It was only after I looked at her shaking lying on the floor that I came to my senses. I said and did the most hurtful things you could ever imagine.
Did I mean it? After all...I said it. Did I mean it?
Sometimes people say things they don't mean. You are holding your wife accountable for some things that were said when she was in her fog. If everybody held everybody accountable for every word that was ever said what would the world be like? Would there ever be any marital reconciliations if every WS was strictly held to what they said while in the fog? Have you never said anything to anyone and regretted it later? Like I said I think you are having a problem forgiving her and if that is the case then move on. But do so understanding that she is trying to repair the marriage and you aren't able to forgive her. Don't hold some arbitrary crossing of some imagined line in the sand to be the reason.
Your wife is grasping at straws trying to find a way to repair her relationship with you. You are demanding answers but you are not giving her the time necessary to find the correct ones. Consequently she is throwing explanations against the wall in the hopes that one will stick and you will forgive her. Hasn't she already switched therapists because you felt she wasn't making progress quickly enough? It sounds to me like she is doing all she can on her own to try to repair the marriage but she isn't getting any help from you. If you can't find it in your heart to forgive her then reconciliation will not happen. But don't make it out to be her fault if you don't stay together. It is completely her fault for the A but not for all of the marital problems before the A and certainly not for this.
I can tell you all are putting some effort into unravelling this with me. Thank you.
The "clutching at straws" pattern is her "tell" for more deception. My wife is many things, but I know that at the end of the day/world/whatever... she does not want to be someone who ended up in a divorce with small children because of affairs on her part. No. She wants more time to leave on her terms, where she can roll into a seemingly better situation so that spectators go... "Ah, she left as a step up" as opposed to, "He kicked her out because of multiple affairs". This is a pattern her father has too.
Right now she is at her first SA meeting. There are no ladies-only groups in our area but she found a sponsor that is willing to take her. Her IC has her in a 90 in 90 program. I'm having a hard time thinking that any of this makes a difference and am I the only one who feels that putting a bunch of supposed sex addicts together in a room to talk about sex addiction is a really really bad idea?
Here's the thing... anyone in a panic, torture, duress... will say or do just about anything to either buy more time or to make the alarm stop. Short term, my wife says all the right things. She sounds tremendously remorseful. Heck, she even went before a church council in October and endured a 2 hour hearing that resulted in her being disfellowshipped, all the while continuing her Master/Slave affair. She convinced all these people that it was just the girl she had an affair with. She convinced me of it too.
And yes, I've considered the "online" thing... and was kind of coming to terms with it until a few things happened. 1) Some of the harrassing emails shed light on allusions made in their emails that they actually met up in May, July, and maybe late August, and 2) she tried to recruit me as her Dom. Doesn't sound a whole lot like a mere "online" affair when you look at the bottomline of the panicky actions.
@ Beowulf... I have plenty of reasons to leave and not only am I struggling with Forgiveness, I'm struggling with so many other things too. Forgiveness will come in time whether we divorce or reconcile. I'm 100% sure of it. For right now, I'm praying for a miracle. My 2nd IC session is on Thursday morning and I hope I come out with more hope than the 1st session left me with.
You think they met up? Wow! That would be an even more disturbing twist, who knows what really awful crap he'd have her do in person.
So you suspect there is much more that she is covering up still, such as her meeting up with him and him making her do things, perhaps with many other men? Is this based on evidence or suspicion? I know you think the video of the girl was really her. Would ths be from one of his meetups?
Seriously what kind of kid would have the cash to travel to her like that, unless he is in the country and she's lying about him being in Singapore.
Would a post nup be advised here? Find a good lawyer to write it up tightly? Or perhaps find someway for her to assign custody and all the family assets to you now? Posted via Mobile Device
By your logic, alcholics should not go to AA with other addicts. Drug addicts should not go to any rehab where there are other drug addicts. If I am not mistaken, all addictions are centered in the same part of the brain and are basically treated the same way, generally after the addict has hit rock bottom.
I would like to add one statistic. 80% of all couples that divorce because of infidelity eventually regret that they divocred and did not work to save the marriage.
As much as I feel for Mrs. Tover after reading her threads, I think we do have to respect Tover's decision if he wants a divorce.
I'm sure Tover's wife's feelings are genuine. I'm sure she is in pain. But I have to question whether R is even feasible. As much as she might want it, they might not even be capable of a proper R.
R requires the disloyal spouse to be honest and transparent, and she has lied and trickle-truthed for a long time.
Ideally the OM would be absent from their lives, which probably is not happening soon.
And it requires that both spouses are mentally in a place that they can handle it. I'm not sure if this is still true for Tover.
Maybe after Tover has taken some time to heal, and get proper treatment, R can be a possibility. Or maybe D is the route that this needs to take. If that's what happens, at this stage Tover can leave with his head held high. Few people in his unique situation would have stuck it out as long as he did.
Tover, please, please get treatment for the voices. Once they're there, divorcing her won't force them away. For that you need proper psychiatric help.
You can and will do whatever you feel is right. I do not believe she had multiple or even one exit affair. I think the likelihood that her and the Singapore sicko got together physically is pretty remote. I don't think she is a closet lesbian or bisexual. And given that just about everyone you both know is aware of her affair and has been receiving emails from the POS techie gamer I don't think she is trying to twist this somehow into blaming you if things don't work out. Your friends, family, you and she know if you get divorced it will be as a result of her affairs. Trust is a very hard thing to recover. I think because she broke your trust you don't believe anything she says. You don't think she loves you. You don't believe she ever loved you. This is all normal to think and is part of the grieving process you are no doubt going through.
I think you are looking for reasons to end the marriage. However you don't need any more reasons to end the marriage. She has admitted to two affairs. Many men couldn't get by one breach of trust. If you can't deal with what she has done that is ok. You have every reason to end the marriage right now based on what you know and what she has admitted.
My only point was to provide an outsiders view on what I currently see. I believe she is remorseful. I believe she is trying to repair the marriage. Like Shaggy said I believe she is easily led and is very weak and naive. I don't think she knows what to do to fix things. I think it is this indecision and waffling that you are picking up on and it is what is making you believe she is not sincere.
When I was going through reconciliation my pain and anger blinded me from seeing all that my wife was doing to fix our marriage. I didn't trust that she was serious. After all she deceived me and did some terrible things while in her affair. I ended up lashing out at her and it was only after I saw her laying on the floor curled up in a ball that I had my epiphany. I feel you are blinded like I was. I just hope you don't make a life altering decision that you will come to regret. I don't want you to have an epiphany years from now when it is too late to take it back. Like Chap said, 80% of couples that divorce due to infidelity regret their decision.
I think you need to go to counseling to help you deal with all the emotions you are feeling and I think you should hold off on making any important decisions until you are mentally strong enough to know they are the correct ones.