Chap,
This is actually quite good. No question there is love in this marriage, he loves her - a lot. And he has for most of the marriage.
The busted honeymoon says it all. He is attempting to retrofit what happened there with "she was sea sick". But that doesn't ring true to me. When he first raised the honeymoon fiasco he never once mentioned her being sea sick. I believe she was sea sick during the honey moon. I don't for a moment believe that was why they didn't have sex. This is very clear because of what DIDN'T happen. (1) She wasn't remorseful during the honeymoon for it being sexless. (2) And she didn't saturate him with sex upon their return. A good wife would have done 1 and 2. Even a mediocre wife would have done (2).
I come back to: there is a lot of love in this marriage - he loves her. As she told the OM - she always felt she settled. That is not fixable 12 years into a disasterous interaction pattern. I believe there were things she liked about him, but ALL of those things were really about HER. They all tie back to her hope that he would proivde for/take care of her.
This reminds me of the posts where some married women on here went on at length about how they starved their husbands of sex for long periods of time due to resentment. And then they explained the source of that resentment: Their husbands did not earn enough money to allow them to be SAHMs. And the tone of their posts was simply explanatory. They didn't feel any guilt/remorse over doing that. BTW none of them had a "rational" basis for expecting that outcome. Their husbands didn't make much money before they married and were not on the fast track. So this was simply a "dream" each of them had that their H's didn't bring to life for them. And for that "failure" each of the husbands got treated VERY badly for many years.
Now before anyone flames me, MY W would have been EXACTLY like those women if the had chosen to marry someone who couldn't provide well. She isn't lazy. Quite the opposite. But she wanted to be a SAHM. It was a top priority to her. If I couldn't/wouldn't have supported that, she would have felt a lot of resentment for a long time and for sure it would have impacted our marriage and our sex life.
But here's the thing, deep down DG's wife really truly feels entitled to a better lifestyle than he can provide. And she resents the heck out of him for not providing in the style to which she wants to be accustomed. And THAT is why:
His top priority: Save the marriage get his wife to love him
Her top priority: Hold him at arms length and AT LEAST get a few luxury vacations out of him
DG,
If I am wrong about all this I apologize. So in the spirit of acknowledging that I may be off base I am going to ask you to do an exercise that will only take a minute or so.
Earlier in your thread you mentioned a brief period of time during which your W provided you with a high frequency of (sadly dead fish) sex for a few months. She said later it was her last attempt to fix the marriage. But by "fix" she meant that she wanted to change something/some things about YOU. So think back and ask yourself, what was it that she wanted back then? I have to believe she told you. Because whatever THAT was, it was so important to her that she was willing to have a lot of bad sex (or at least she acted as if it was not good for her) to get it.
Did she want to be a full time SAHM? Did she want to work part time? Did she want YOU to behave differently? Whatever it was, it was REALLY important to her and when she concluded she wasn't going to get it, she gave up totally and stopped having sex with you almost entirely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapparal
I caught a little bit of a counselor this afternoon on Focus on the Family. And I immediately thought of you.
They were discussing how women mistakenly use sex to manipulate their husbands. Which in a Christian point of view is completely wrong by the way. The reason I thought of you is that your wife after a good romance started to withhold sex from you from the honeymoon on. I'm sure most of us husbands have encountered the "I have a headache, I'm bloated, I'm tired, I've had a bad day" etc. to infinity.
The thing is sex is the number one love language to men while affection is the number one love language of women. So when women do this they don't understand what they are doing to their men. Of course this naturally leads to the husband being less affectionate because in his mind he has been totally, 1000% rejected. It brings on that queasy feeling in the stomach. Played to long this becomes a downward spiral. This is (my veiw) the number one reason men cheat and at some level women understand this.
For whatever reason this happend almost immediately in your marriage. You two have been on this roller coaster your whole marriage. Not meeting each others needs. I think you both have to be commended for being able to stick it out this long and that makes me believe you two are truly in love.
For whatever reason her manipulation started it has grown to the breaking point for you both. You stayed in so long that sex disappaered altogether like many threads a TAM. Finally she found a man she could talk to. I have no doubt her being an attractive woman would have led the OM to at least try to bed her. (you should try to explain the way men really think to her) I don't think it was a full blown EA because she immediately cut off contact with him and showed none of the withdrawal symptoms we see here.
As a matter of fact she has been making some progress in MC. (You should probably try another MC counselor or keep this one awhile since stopping could make her think you are blaming her for the failure of counseling. Its your idea, not hers, that its not working.)
On your end, the OM was a 2x4 to the head. Also, on your shoulders is the fact that you have let her manipulate you with sex from the beginning. That should not have been allowed after the first week. You simply did not have that boundary, that you thought you could enforce. If only you had put your foot down then and found out what the problems were this could have all been avoided.
I would get her to talk about your honeymoon. Why did it turn out like it did? I would ask her what you did that hurt her so that she would react that way during or soon after the honeymoon. Of course this all has to be done with love ,patience and above all stay extremely calm and concerned. It doesn't have to be done all at one time but you have to go back to the beginning and figure this out. There is a good chance she may not even remember, probably doesn't. It may just be something small and built into this snowball from hell.
Here is what I would do. I would get the books, you may have them, "Love Busters" "The Five Love Languages" and especially "His Needs Her Needs" and read them together. Do not take no for an answer and make it plain from the get go that the two of you ARE going to read them. Man up and lead your family, do a little dictating. If you have to grab the books and go to bed with her and read some each night. Put the kids to bed and if they act up, spank them. They need it anyway.
Tell her the truth. You have and will do anything for her and your family. You would lay down your life for her and your children.
Of course she wants to go on the trips with you,think about it. How would you feel if she didn't , you would be hurt to the bottom of your heart. You are making way more progress than I thought you would at this point. You've busted an affair before it really got started, she's being much more enthusiastic about being around you, you are sleeping in the same bed, she wants to go on two trips with you, sex is around the corner if you don't blow it.
Remember, her moving out was YOUR IDEA.
Forget the deadlines, you haven't done near enough to save your family at this point.
Chap... You ha e REALLY defined my issue more than most. I think you have a good handle on what I've been dealing with. You are right, there has been progress. But I just don't know what is behind it. I PRAY there is not another in her heart. If so....all is just an illussion. If not...it should be able to be saved. I know I own a lot of the issues. BUT she needs to let go of a lot of her resentments.....they no longer pertain. I am a completely different person than I was 10 years ago. She SHOULD see that. If not....it might take drastic action on my part. I hope not. Things are coming to a head in the next week. Rest assured,all, there will be NO trips without commitment from her, of some sort.
One of my points is that I think she truly doesn't know the answers. This has been going on so long its lost in the haze. Take the books to bed with you and give it a real try.
I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.
That may be true but this ain't a race, its real life and its not entertainment. Also, its not a forum for bashing people. Just saying.
Hope things are going well with you by the way. I think I have been missing your posts.
I agree it's not a race and it's not entertainment. I've followed his thread from the beginning. Who's bashing him? It's about facing the reality of things. It's a do or die thing at this point. He's suffering, she's suffering, something needs to give. People can't stay in limbo like this, it's not a healthy way to live.
I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.
No..she has a week to decide if SHE wants to move out. If she does...I probably am done. If not...I will move Heaven and Earth to work on it. Posted via Mobile Device
I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.
But what is there for him to stay for? Her ignoring and being put out by him saying ILY? Her being annoyed that he makes her breakfast to take on the road? I swear if trips are off the table totally (not 'we'll go if you smarten up by March 15th') DG will get a true view of where she's at. I'm saying - take trips off table totally. Don't dangle it like a carrot or take away as punishment. Just take off the table. Posted via Mobile Device
But what is there for him to stay for? Her ignoring and being put out by him saying ILY? Her being annoyed that he makes her breakfast to take on the road? I swear if trips are off the table totally (not 'we'll go if you smarten up by March 15th') DG will get a true view of where she's at. I'm saying - take trips off table totally. Don't dangle it like a carrot or take away as punishment. Just take off the table. Posted via Mobile Device
I don't see how that would help. The gulf would just grow wider. That would be the ultimate slap in the face. That's how I would consider it.
I don't see how that would help. The gulf would just grow wider. That would be the ultimate slap in the face. That's how I would consider it.
Why a slap in the face? If said that they have bigger things to deal with than this trip. Why would anyone want to take a trip with someone who can barely tolerate them? I just see it as him kissing her ass again and she doesn't deserve that. Posted via Mobile Device
Chap,
This is SO over the line. Seriously I have no idea where you come up with this stuff.
1. SHE isn't talking in MC. Basically she told him she resents him but won't explain specifically what she wants him to DO. It is all about her "feelings" but there is not connection back to anything he can DO, that is except refrain from over the top behaviors like telling her once a month in text that he loves her. She is going to MC because:
- Not going makes it very clear she isn't willing to put effort in
- And yet - she makes no efforts
But she does get to blame him for a long list of stuff lost in the haze of time. So he SUCKS but she can't remember why.
2. He ASKED HER if she wants to move out, since she clearly doesn't seem to want to be with him. Totally fair question.
3. This is OUTRAGEOUS. I cannot believe you said this. Here we have a woman who has little to no desire to actually spend time with DG. She is however WILLING TO if they go on trips they cannot by any standard really afford.
Lets turn it around. A female poster shows up tomorrow and says her H has made it clear he doesn't really want to spend time with her outside the bedroom but he does seem determined to get her to keep having sex with him.
You have an agenda here. Your advice has no balance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chapparal
I'm not sure you haven't already checked out. You want to stop MC. You suggested she move out. You don't want to take trips with her. She only has a week to come around.
Not too expectant of an amorous encounter this evening as planned.
I went 2 1/2 months while xw was out of town for work last spring and our first return encounter was disastrous because she was so disengaged (later confirmed affair though, making this potentially different from your situation, DG). Granted, at that point I was personally in a bad place and wasn't prepared for how to handle it from a position of strength...and went another 2 agonizing soul-searching months sexless and filled with lies from xw before I called it. But 2 years is huge. I wish you luck DG. Intimacy is hard to reclaim.
I'll say that now, in a new relationship with a woman who actually cares about me, physical matters are EASY. Think about that. Remember what it was like, if you can. You could move on and start over with someone who really craves your company. I know you have kids, and that makes it so much harder...but happiness is contagious. Your kids will see it...from both of you.
ALL THAT SAID...I hope she opens up and lets you in tonight. Arm around her shoulder. Kiss her lightly on her back. Then her cheek. Then her lips. Then harder. If you are still in business, don't back off. Touch her. Take her hand and place it ON YOU. If she recoils, don't get angry...just disengage, chuckle, say "Gotcha", and roll over and grab the tv remote. Watch something funny...and laugh. Because at a certain point, sex is gone. And if that is the case for you in you rmarriage, then embrace the reality of that and be prepared to move on.
Sorry man. I got the same conflicting advice. It was just as confusing. Tailor it to yourself. I eventually found healing in the second F@ck her (eff it and move on). But was hoping for the first option. Just didn't happen. Or I didn't make it happen...but I think it was because I decided I just couldn't go there. If you have that option in the least...go there.
Again, my xw had a confirmed PA. So it's different mindset...tread as you please. Feel for you. But you're the one running your show. Do what you want, and if she doesn't agree, then she can get off the carousel.
Number one its a leading question. He asked her if she wanted to move out. Later he asked her why. Her answer....... I thought you wantd me to.
And I completely disagree that she clearly doesn't want to be with him. Maybe but maybe not. She is still there after all.
And all this with only one side of the story. Somehow DG has disaffected her. Neither one knows but I suspect it a lot of things, many listed throughout his threads.
If she were as bad as the advisors here project her, DG would have been gone long ago.
And the marriage hasn't been sexless unless the stork brought the kids.
By the way, when DG was spending a lot of time in bars with his office buddies, spending thousands of dollars, I will bet she thought he was out banging other women.
If she was out drunk doing what he was doing he would have had a cow.
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Re: Pretty Much Have Lost It 
