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post #16 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 05:38 AM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

When he said this " how he wasn’t going to let me throw away our relationship" is a piece of work. He is throwing it away, then and now.

"secret meetings" = sex. If nobody is around, what keeps them from doing it? You know sex can be quick... we've all had our quickies.

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post #17 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 06:21 AM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

I wouldn't be in a rush to jettison this marriage, especially with children. I wonder if your depression was any kind of contributing factor (not blaming you, of course). You both need to agree wholeheartedly on radical honesty between each other. Needs aren't being met, communication sucks, he's a liar. Without 100% honesty on everything past and present, marriage cannot recover and grow. 99% won't cut it. If it were me, I'd polygraph his a$$ since he has proven himself to be a liar. He is likely giving you the G-rated version to avoid hurting you further and to increase his odds of reconciliation. If you don't know the whole truth, how can you recover, forgive, and love him?
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post #18 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 09:42 AM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

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I wouldn't be in a rush to jettison this marriage, especially with children. I wonder if your depression was any kind of contributing factor (not blaming you, of course).
You're not blaming her, only suggesting that she once again forgive his serial cheating and constant lying and trickle truths because, well she was depressed so don't blame the poor guy for getting his own needs met because he's gotta deal with a depressed wife all day. Nice.
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post #19 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 03:53 PM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

Miz,

Let me give you a heads up on Serial Cheaters... He never really stopped cheating on you after that 1st time before your marriage. Oh they will take a pause for 6 months maybe a year but they are always looking for that next time. The more realistic truth is... it just took 10 more years for him to get caught again.

Oh BTW, there was sex. My own WW finally admitted to me that after months of kissing and groping with her AP she decided to have sex. "The consequences didn't change." Understand?

I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying... Andy, Shawshank Redemption.
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post #20 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 05:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

I want to thank you all for your words - those that were kinder and gentler and those that were harsher and more uncompromising.

After I had read some of them, I started shivering so much that I had to curl up in a little ball on this rainbow shaggy carpet that we have in the study. The reality is that I have already thought everything that your words suggest. I've had the pictures in my mind to prove it. But do I still want to believe in him? Absolutely.

This morning I woke up certain of some things:

Because I love my boys, I'm not going to make any decisions now. At heart, I'm a fairly analytical person - and when all the emotional seesawing is done, I need to make the best decision I can for me and mine. If I do decide to stay married, I won't agree to go on with our marriage as it is.

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Originally Posted by turnera View Post
Yes. Give him this list. Tell him once he completes it, you will consider giving him a third chance:
He must go to his parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize.
He must go to your parents with you and tell them what he's done and apologize for hurting you.
He must contact OW's husband and apologize.
He must go back to IC and allow you to come to one session every month or two to get his IC's opinion on what's going on.
He must find a polygraph company and set up an appointment, for which you will set up the questions.
He must go to a lawyer and set up a postnup agreement so that if he cheats again he walks away with nothing.
If he's willing to do those things, you might have a chance.
Thank you turnera for your list (I'm big into lists). He'd already agreed to take a polygraph (although thus far our local service providers seem reluctant to take on domestic interviews) and we discussed the idea of a postnuptial agreement in some detail this morning. He will choose an IC. I'm also going to start IC this week (my WH's idea) - I need a face to speak things to. I did realise that unless I shadow him 24 hours day for the rest of our married life, I will need to trust him at some point. So we're going to need a practical plan to make that happen.

Re: the sex part. We had a long nose-to-nose discussion this morning (like a heart-to-heart, but with tissues). And I found out something very interesting. He saw sex with another woman as the final step that he wouldn't be able to come back from. I think that for him everything up until then was very wrong, but somehow not quite unforgivable. I know men and women are supposed to respond differently to EA's and PA's but I think that my response to him on this was pretty unequivocal. I don't actually care much whether he had sex with them or not. I care that he lived a lie with me. That he gave another woman the truth of who he is for the time that he lied to me and even after that. That is what has done the damage and made me doubt whether I can stay married to him. And I care that he tells the truth to me now in all its ugliness.

And I also realised one final thing. That if I do give him this chance and he lets me down again; then I refuse to feel ashamed. It would be very easy to walk away so that he can never hurt me again. I am not weak if I choose to believe the best about someone.
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post #21 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 08:15 PM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

These are the only women you found out about. Someone who is devoted and committed to you doesn't do this when things are bad. They work to make things better. He knows that there are no consequences and the worst that can happen is what he feels is already likely, divorce. He doesn't respect you or even more importantly himself.

You will never feel comfortable again. You will always be wondering. This won't ever change. Not tomorrow, a week, a month or a year from now. You will always question the devotion of your husband or how much of this all has been a sham. The only way to not feel this way is to pretend. Like a 1950s wife whose husband comes home and drinks at the office and bangs secretaries, you will have to pretend that none of this ever happens. If you can't do that, it will never leave your mind and it will destroy your soul.

Kick him the **** out right now. Reclaim your life and tell him you'll be fair to him, but he isn't the person you thought you married. Cleanse yourself now or it will only be harder and more muddled later. Remember, you need to take control. Don't wait to let things settle down. That is what he want. What's the worse that can happen? You kick him out now, change your mind later and he has moved on? **** him. If he loves you and wants you to be happy, he would devote his life to doing what you need. And what you need is to reincarnate.
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post #22 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-11-2016, 09:34 PM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

So are you going to have him apologize to the parents?
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post #23 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 07:32 AM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzbak View Post
And I also realised one final thing. That if I do give him this chance and he lets me down again; then I refuse to feel ashamed. It would be very easy to walk away so that he can never hurt me again. I am not weak if I choose to believe the best about someone.
Miz,

I think most who choose R with a cheater come to terms with what you say above. I know I said the same words or very similar. My IC called it my emotional safety net... you won't/can't hurt me again... as the Chinese proverb says "Will See".

I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying... Andy, Shawshank Redemption.
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post #24 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:23 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

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Originally Posted by Marc878 View Post
Sorry but cheaters are notorious liars.
Speak with the OW's H at length.
This is the second time. If it were me there wouldn't be a third
OK, did a brave/foolish/weird thing today and contacted the OW's H. Thank you Marc878 ...

We had coffee and swapped information. Aside from various warning lights going off around meeting him while we are both in such a frankly emotional state, we did OK (although 2 emotional introverts in a coffee shop sounds like a music group). I remain fairly neutral about the OW. She has nothing to do with the promises that were broken that cause me such pain - the breaking yes, the promises, no. I respect her a lot less now after the conversation I had with her husband. (She made my husband's trickle truth look like a tsunami). I knew her a bit (not all that well) so I had heard how she spoke about her spouse before all this happened. I don't have a lot of time for people that whinge about their spouses to others. I think that if you have issues with your spouse then you discuss them with your spouse. Everything else is disloyal and just a waste of time.

So the conversation was eye-opening. The OW's H is in a lot of pain, he is angry and all the things that you'd expect him (and me) to be. Some things I think he sees more clearly than me and others I think I see better than him. On the plus side (ish) - it would appear that my WS has been far more frank about things than his. And mine seems very much more committed to trying to save our marriage.

On the not-so-great side, he also doesn't quite believe that they didn't have sex. He also told me a few details/perspectives that I didn't know. My WH definitely spoke to the OW more about our relationship then he told me he did (he knows my views on this - see above). The OWH knew some small things about me that I certainly hadn't told him. It was so surreal ... and sordid. I'm not actually uncomfortable about anything that I found out - in general terms, I knew it already. Just feel a bit like I was out in public and suddenly noticed toilet paper stuck to my shoe.

I worry that I did him harm by telling him things that he didn't already know. He told me that all he wants is the truth. I told him what I had. I am definitely going to insist on a polygraph from my WH.
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post #25 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:29 AM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

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Originally Posted by Mizzbak View Post
I want to thank you all for your words - those that were kinder and gentler and those that were harsher and more uncompromising.

After I had read some of them, I started shivering so much that I had to curl up in a little ball on this rainbow shaggy carpet that we have in the study. The reality is that I have already thought everything that your words suggest. I've had the pictures in my mind to prove it. But do I still want to believe in him? Absolutely.

This morning I woke up certain of some things:

Because I love my boys, I'm not going to make any decisions now. At heart, I'm a fairly analytical person - and when all the emotional seesawing is done, I need to make the best decision I can for me and mine. If I do decide to stay married, I won't agree to go on with our marriage as it is.



Thank you turnera for your list (I'm big into lists). He'd already agreed to take a polygraph (although thus far our local service providers seem reluctant to take on domestic interviews) and we discussed the idea of a postnuptial agreement in some detail this morning. He will choose an IC. I'm also going to start IC this week (my WH's idea) - I need a face to speak things to. I did realise that unless I shadow him 24 hours day for the rest of our married life, I will need to trust him at some point. So we're going to need a practical plan to make that happen.

Re: the sex part. We had a long nose-to-nose discussion this morning (like a heart-to-heart, but with tissues). And I found out something very interesting. He saw sex with another woman as the final step that he wouldn't be able to come back from. I think that for him everything up until then was very wrong, but somehow not quite unforgivable. I know men and women are supposed to respond differently to EA's and PA's but I think that my response to him on this was pretty unequivocal. I don't actually care much whether he had sex with them or not. I care that he lived a lie with me. That he gave another woman the truth of who he is for the time that he lied to me and even after that. That is what has done the damage and made me doubt whether I can stay married to him. And I care that he tells the truth to me now in all its ugliness.

And I also realised one final thing. That if I do give him this chance and he lets me down again; then I refuse to feel ashamed. It would be very easy to walk away so that he can never hurt me again. I am not weak if I choose to believe the best about someone.
Bottom line -- for as long as he's telling you that he's not gone "all the way" w/ any of these women, he's lying to your face, and you're not going to be able to reconcile your marriage in any way that truly matters until he starts telling the truth, and ALL of it.
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Virginia: "Why can't you kids leave well enough alone? Everything was fine until you started digging around."

Burt: "You sound like a Scooby Doo villain."
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post #26 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:33 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

Hi tunera

The parent issue is a bit complicated. Both sets are pretty far away. And his are currently waiting on a pretty serious medical diagnosis. (There have been better times for us to have relationship drama.) I want to talk to my folks, but am worried that this will make them both very worried (they have enough of their own worries right now) and also that it will make a future relationship between them and my WH very difficult if we reconcile. My dad is pretty judgemental when it comes to sordid ... and whilst I could tell my mom, she would definitely tell my dad.

Last edited by Mizzbak; 09-12-2016 at 09:59 AM.
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post #27 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:44 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

Quote:
Originally Posted by Legend View Post
I wouldn't be in a rush to jettison this marriage, especially with children. I wonder if your depression was any kind of contributing factor (not blaming you, of course). You both need to agree wholeheartedly on radical honesty between each other. Needs aren't being met, communication sucks, he's a liar. Without 100% honesty on everything past and present, marriage cannot recover and grow. 99% won't cut it. If it were me, I'd polygraph his a$$ since he has proven himself to be a liar. He is likely giving you the G-rated version to avoid hurting you further and to increase his odds of reconciliation. If you don't know the whole truth, how can you recover, forgive, and love him?
Yes, Legend, I 100% think that my depression was a contributing factor. I know that for a long time I was basically wrapped in a gentle woolly layer of numbness. It's hard to have a good marriage with anyone in these circumstances. Was it my fault that I was sick? No. Could I have gotten better quicker? Probably. Should he have handled my depression differently at the time? Yes - we've started to have several discussions around this and what we both should have done differently. Did he respond appropriately to how all this (my depression) made him feel? Absolutely not. What he did was wrong and incredibly destructive. And he absolutely understands this and owns it. If he didn't, I wouldn't even be prepared to consider reconciling with him.

And yes, the polygraph has become non-negotiable. I don't know that I care what the truth actually is, I care that I know it ...
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post #28 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 09:58 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

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Your post made me cry, and I'm not much of a cryer. My heart breaks for you.

I Agree to him following the steps listed above that include the poly. If he's serious, he will comply and there may be something here to salvage. TAKE. YOUR. TIME.


I'm so sorry you are here, it sounds like we've got two ultimately very nice, but very imperfect people really struggling with problems that seem impossible to solve. I hope you all get lots of help and that a FUTURE reconcile might happen. TAKE. YOUR. TIME.
Spicy, thank you. Your post made me cry back. I am battling so much with being so many different people. There's the one that keeps everything normal and even a bit smiley for my kids. There's the one that wrote my first post who cries ... pretty much always, if I let her. There's the one that nurses every new hurt (discovered or imagined) and is in a pretty foul mood all the time - frankly, she is a b1tch. There's the pragmatist who is prepared, once all checks and balances are in place, to take a chance on him and on trying again. And then there's the last one. Just trying to be real. Thank you for reminding me that she exists. Of all of them, I think she understands him best.

Last edited by Mizzbak; 09-12-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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post #29 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-12-2016, 05:32 PM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

Re: your parents. First, you NEED your parents' support for this. Second, his relationship with them is HIS problem to deal with. He caused this. Third, if he were to APOLOGIZE to them, and do it sincerely, it would serve two purposes (aside from giving you your parents' support): It would teach your H a very valuable lesson, to look them in the face or to even hear their voice over the phone, and see what HIS actions have done; and it would teach them that he can have humility and sorrow and may make them willing to give him a second chance.
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post #30 of 56 (permalink) Old 09-13-2016, 03:21 PM
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Re: Feeling a lot lost

I know you want to WISH that they didn't have sex. But the likelyhood is more so than not. Just as you didn't know about the time they spent with each other, you don't know what physical things happen - other than what he has told you. I saw text in my wife's phone about her and POSOM "Fu~~ing", yet both of them said "it was a joke". She has since admitted that yeah, they DID have sex, more than I knew at first. Because the tons of "friendly" text doesn't have to say SEX all the time - they were.

You should tell your husband... that IF you find out he is LYING about any sex in the future, that you will D him instantly. That he better come clean now... because eventually you will learn the truth, next week, next year... etc. That the continued lying of any sort will kill any chance of staying married.
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