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Those of you with WS, did they ever come to understand that they are bad human beings

15K views 89 replies 44 participants last post by  lostmyreligion 
#1 · (Edited)
I get that some peoples take is that they are still good people and they just did a bad thing, or they are sick, but that is not my take. I am curious if any other WS actually ended up thinking the way I do that they really were just bad people.
 
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#2 ·
in my case, no.

i had two ex's. that cheated on me.

in the one case, when i confronted her, she got mad at me and tried to re-direct the blame on me.
she never did apologize, although she did show some remorse/guilt. eventually we parted ways and now she's gone from this world.

in the other case, she was absolutely unrepentant and is to this day, years later.

my conclusion based on experience and observation?

it takes a relatively healthy person with a deep moral conviction to admit that they are deeply flawed. they can say it, but their actions and attitudes speak otherwise.
the vast majority of cheaters are not healthy, seriously flawed and also serial cheaters. there are rare exceptions.

in my case, i admit i ignored the red flags.
 
#4 ·
No, my ex is pretty convinced that I'm the evil one. If I had been more X or less Y, then my ex wouldn't have had to cheat, blah blah blah blameshifting. I knew all throughout the marriage that introspection was not a strong suit there, so I am not particularly surprised.

My ex was Catholic, so when I asked about that whole pesky commandment breaking thing, the answer I got was "God wanted me to fall in love again." Later, it turned into "I'm not really into that stuff (religion) anymore." My ex would rather stop believing in God than admit being bad.

Whole lot of cognitive dissonance going on.
 
#6 ·
I think my W does at times feel the enormity of what she did to me, not in a way to make a confession, but there is a feeling of regret. That feeling of regret coexists with a feeling of justification and a family trait of avoiding direct admissions.

In a very heartfelt way once during prayer she told me "I'M GUILT" with no further elaboration.

What I want is the confession however so that I can decide what to do with the marriage and OM.

I don't view her as a bad person for doing what I could have done, but many of the consequences have up to now been avoided.

Tamat
 
#8 ·
My take is that we are humans capable of many things, mostly good and sometimes very cruel, vile and evil too.

I'm not one that is with you on the idea that WS are just bad people. We are all human and capable of doing a lot of damage, especially the so called people we LOVE.

We are at the top of the animal kingdom and yet humans are one of the cruelest creatures this Earth has. How many other animals cheat on their partner, dump them, and then blame it on the betrayed partner? How many simply just abandon even their younglings? We are most certainly very cruel, cruel individuals. It is part of the human makeup that comes from being emotional, rational creatures!
 
#9 ·
I don't have a WS but I'm the daughter of one and I don't think it's an either/or situation. I think there are WS that are remorseful, (we have them here on TAM), my Dad cheated on my mom, he was remorseful and they reconciled and have been married for 53 years. On the other extreme, there's my ex SIL. She is incapable of admitting any wrong doing or apologizing. She's a master at DARVO. Looking perfect at all times is most important to her.
 
#10 ·
Where's the line, I wonder? There seems to be no shortage of members here who think that infidelity crosses that line - that you are no longer guilty of having done a bad thing, but are an inherently bad person.

I don't subscribe to that motion, but then I have a dog in the hunt. I don't feel like I'm a bad person. I feel like I ****ed up, repented, and did my best to fix the damage. Am I cut from the same cloth as a serial murder? A rapist? A child molester? You decide, I guess.

As for the propensity here to make sweeping generalizations about any population, please. Come back when you have your dissertation in hand with data sets and analysis backing up your claim about "most" of anything.


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#13 ·
As for the propensity here to make sweeping generalizations about any population, please. Come back when you have your dissertation in hand with data sets and analysis backing up your claim about "most" of anything.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
 
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#12 ·
Let me clarify, I don't mean a completely bad human being I mean in this instance they were a bad human being. To me this is what is needed to have a true R. I do believe people can do good and be good in other ways. I also believe people can change and be better human beings. My own father cheated. In this respect he is a bad human being. He was still a wonderful father to me, I wouldn't want to be married to him though.
 
#15 ·
Some are bad human beings some are not. However it is my personal experience, and along with getting to know a good dozen or more people who have been cheated on over the last several years….that most likely the cheater has a personality disorder. Those people are toxic and are truly damaged, and bad people. But some are people who for some reason or another got involved with another person. To me a big difference between the two sets of people is repentance. If the person is sincerely regretful, and remorseful they may well not have a personality disorder.
 
#16 ·
Most people do both good and bad things in their lives. Opinions vary on the seriousness of various offenses. For some people cheating is a horrible crime, never to be forgiven / forgotten, for others is is wrong, but forgivable.

Rape, assault, theft, adultery, blasphemy, cowardice, etc. Different people will put these in different orders of severity.
 
#17 ·
My opinions have evolved and continue to evolve as I learn more.

I watched a TED talk (recommended here) about surviving infidelity that often arises after a big life event like illness or death of someone close. That was followed by reading exactly that on TAM. So thee is anecdotal evidence that there is something there. Is it a common response? Idk. Are the people changed in some way? Idk. Are their perceptions - and therefore their values - changed in some way? Idk. But I do know the mind is complex, and it only takes a break in one part to result in unusual behavior.

And if that is true, then is it solely a character issue? I don't think so. I think it is a breakdown if boundaries or standards or values... or the opposite and the elevation of a need or want or desire... that changes the equation.

If we don't cheat because if boundaries, respect for our partners, self respect, moral views, etc., then what happens when one part of the equation breaks?

So now I think there are nuances to consider. The why or what precipitated it becomes more important. Will it happen again? Maybe not, if it's caused by this more complex set of circumstances.

None of this impacts the BS though and I'm sure the pain and betrayal is unchanged.

But your question was narrower. And so my answer used to be that only bad people do bad things. Now I believe many good people can become bad people in certain circumstances. And it's possible for them to be good again one day. But in the throes of it they are being bad to their spouses


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#22 ·
Do you feel this way about other things. Like say a parent dies do you feel that abdicates someone of there responsibilities if they rob someone? If not why is cheating different. My point is why is it only in this one instance that life changing events are seen as a excuse to do wrong.
 
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#18 ·
I am a serial wayward and I don't see myself as a bad person. Based on what I read about serial waywards one would think that I would lie cheat and steal in everything that I do, and even kick puppies, but that isn't the case at all. What I am is a lousy husband if you place any kind of importance on fidelity. But not a bad human being, I know many will disagree.
 
#42 ·
I am a serial wayward and I don't see myself as a bad person. Based on what I read about serial waywards one would think that I would lie cheat and steal in everything that I do, and even kick puppies, but that isn't the case at all. What I am is a lousy husband if you place any kind of importance on fidelity. But not a bad human being, I know many will disagree.
In that case your username is really confusing...
 
#19 ·
I don’t think I’m a good person at all for cheating. I think I am very flawed, I have a lot of baggage, most days I feel like the one time I did a “bad” thing outweigh the multitude of good I’ve done in my life – and there has been a lot. Even though I have not actively “been bad” for over 3 years now, that black spot on my heart that happened over the course of one evening outweighs my other 37 years and 364 days I’ve been alive. To me – and probably many others – I’m scum. I’ll always be a bad person (in my eyes) for what I did that night, I doubt that I’ll ever ‘get over’ what I did. Especially knowing how much I hurt my husband. No human being deserves that.
 
#20 ·
I have never met a "good person" really. Every person I know is flawed...as it should be. We are all imperfect and we all mess up from time to time, but as long as we acknowledge our wrongdoings and make amends for them, we should give grace and receive grace in kind. My ex-wife is not a bad person. She is a selfish person who will keep fvcking up as long as she remains selfish.

But there are inherently evil people in this world: mean-ass, criminal, amoral people who have no regard for others. But not all of these people cheat on their spouses. Being a bad person and being adulterous are not mutually inclusive.
 
#30 · (Edited)
​Some years ago (seems like forever ago), I went through some management training for my job at the time. Much of it was pretty campy, but one of the concepts that stuck w/ me involved the idea that one should separate comments or criticism regarding behavior from those regarding core character or personality.

Admittedly, I'm not always the best at this.

Still, I recognize the following:

1. Good people do bad things.

2. Bad people do good things.

3. For as long as one does bad things, is stubbornly unrepentant w/ respect to his or her poor behavior, and makes no effort to both turn away from and atone for the behavior, he or she is -- w/ respect to at least that facet of his or her life -- a bad person.

But here's the thing -- each facet of your life has the potential to impact every other facet of your life... as well as the lives around you.

For example, being a bad spouse can mean that you're a bad parent, and vice versa.
 
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#35 ·
Okay, before I cheated, I had baggage from physical abuse as a child and PTSD, I was codependent, and I did not really believe I was lovable or valuable. I dealt with that baggage, but I did not realize I still had other flaws to address. My "before I cheated" self was honest, kind, happy and I'd say a good person in my core--meaning that my True Self is pretty peaceful, gentle, and content.

While I was cheating, my character flaws were made plain. While I was cheating I was dishonest, unkind, angry and a bad person.

I saw the error of my ways and addressed the character flaw that lead to it. In addition, I now understand that I may have little flaw-time bombs that I need to be aware of and address. So to use a term from another thread here on TAM, I learned to "Mate Guard" my own self.

Now I am back to the core person that I am--meaning that my True Self is honest, generous, optimistic, and I'd say a good person. The difference between my "before I cheated" self and my "after I cheated" self is that in many ways I'm still who I am, but I am no longer codependent, I no longer view myself as unlovable as a default (I struggle with that one all the time), and I no longer avoid personal responsibility. I grew up. I learned to face myself--even my scary, less-good side--and be honest that it is there and that I change those parts of me if I deal with them.

So nope--I do not think of myself as "a bad person" because I cheated. I think of myself as a human being who is growing and maturing as I age.
 
#49 ·
While I was cheating, my character flaws were made plain. While I was cheating I was dishonest, unkind, angry and a bad person.
But you did see yourself as a bad person then you changed, and that is my point. I would think it is the rare person that does. This is why I think for the most part it is a bad idea to R. It takes this level of remorse to actually do the hard work.
 
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#43 ·
I don't think that. I do think that the cheaters who don't ever reach that epiphany that what they did hurt someone, or care about it are the wicked people though. The ones who don't say "that was terrible I'm never doing that again" are the toxic people.

If you're so selfish that you'd put your sexual gratification above your integrity, then yes, you ARE bad. If you can hurt and betray the person you swore to protect and love in the pursuit of your own sexual interests, and keep doing it when you realize the damage it did, then yes, you ARE bad.
 
#41 ·
I haven't witnessed it myself but my parents did notice when they saw my XH that he looked very hangdog and sad. But being sad about the consequences of your actions isn't the same thing as owning responsibility for them. He hasn't admitted to date that he ever cheated. So I doubt he'll ever say he was in the wrong. It's a pride thing.

I have reached a place where I don't let anything he thinks or says have an emotional impact on me. At this point it wouldn't change anything for me if he admitted what he did and owned up to being a s%(&. I'm proud to be at this point, because for the first few months of separation I HATED him and wished he would just put me out of my misery and confess. I have examined my own behavior in the marriage so I can figure out what to do differently next time e.g. Don't ignore the red flags!! Focus on building my own social sphere so there's not so much pressure on the marriage to tick all the boxes. I could go on and on. But you get the point. The best result for me at this point isn't gonna be him admitting to being a bad person. It's going to be my moving on. With or without someone special outside of my little one.
 
#59 ·
10 year EA with his ex gf that I suspect went physical at some point but he won’t admit to it and also doesn’t consider it an EA. Swears they were “just talking”. 1600 texts in a months time at one point, secret, deleted texts on his work phone. I have no smoking gun proof but he never stopped contact with her no matter how many times I begged and pleaded for him to.
 
#52 ·
I'm reminded of the story of king David. He cheated with Basheba and then perpetrated the death of her husband. Doesn't get any worse than that.

And yet he was knocked into his senses and repented bitterly for his crime.
He is still called a 'man after Gods own heart'.
A Great title indeed.

There is redemption.

it's all in the attitude.
 
#56 · (Edited)
Sucked to be Basheba's husband though. All he got was killed.

You also kind of left out the part where David's child from this sin died, and his other son tried to kill him. He whole family was destroyed by violence. His sin was exposed and known throughout history for the whole world to see. There son that lived was the heir was wise but also a hedonist. Still David got the better deal. She didn't protest either. Nothing ever changes does it. The BS always get's the sh1t sandwich.
 
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