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Red flags in Marriage - time to end?

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#1 ·
Over the years my wife of 8 years has alwIays gone off on business trips alone. About 6 months ago she went on one and didn't answer the phone or call once, which is really odd because we have 2 kids - 4 and 2. I threw a fit about it, and she said she was staying with a co-worker in a hotel that was a stranger and felt awkward about it. I didn't buy it but dropped it. Later, in a social setting a different co-worker of hers let it be known that she was at the bar every night on that trip, yet that co-worker was not on the trip with her, and she isn't the type to make things up. I let it go, but have been watching closely. She stays after work 1 night a week to write her paper for school and on numerous occasions I have called her out on not doing her studies. I found receipts to ice cream shops and donut shops in the middle of the evening. She just completely downplays them. Last night was the final strawl. She had her login saved for find my iphone on her ipad and I looked it up, and found out she was at her old work instead of at the place she said she was writing her paper at. I sent her a text and she told me she was at a different place. When I questioned it, I think I just said "you're where" back in a reply she said "well I was there, now I'm here with an old co-worker. She met me at my school with another friend and now I brought her home. " i stopped replying. She came home in a fit of rage and accused me of checking her location. I lied and said I didn't. After all, she had no proof and was the culprit. She put our oldest child to bed and I didn't say much. She asked if I still wanted to be with her and I didn't answer and went to bed. She was up all night crying. This morning she said she could not stand the thought of not being with me for the rest of her life. I want to believe her, but also know that love is blind. I came here for an outside opinion.

Thanks for listening.
 
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#2 ·
Over the years my wife of 8 years has alwIays gone off on business trips alone. About 6 months ago she went on one and didn't answer the phone or call once, which is really odd because we have 2 kids - 4 and 2. I threw a fit about it, and she said she was staying with a co-worker in a hotel that was a stranger and felt awkward about it. I didn't buy it but dropped it. Later, in a social setting a different co-worker of hers let it be known that she was at the bar every night on that trip, yet that co-worker was not on the trip with her, and she isn't the type to make things up. I let it go, but have been watching closely. She stays after work 1 night a week to write her paper for school and on numerous occasions I have called her out on not doing her studies. I found receipts to ice cream shops and donut shops in the middle of the evening. She just completely downplays them. Last night was the final strawl. She had her login saved for find my iphone on her ipad and I looked it up, and found out she was at her old work instead of at the place she said she was writing her paper at. I sent her a text and she told me she was at a different place. When I questioned it, I think I just said "you're where" back in a reply she said "well I was there, now I'm here with an old co-worker. She met me at my school with another friend and now I brought her home. " i stopped replying. She came home in a fit of rage and accused me of checking her location. I lied and said I didn't. After all, she had no proof and was the culprit. She put our oldest child to bed and I didn't say much. She asked if I still wanted to be with her and I didn't answer and went to bed. She was up all night crying. This morning she said she could not stand the thought of not being with me for the rest of her life. I want to believe her, but also know that love is blind. I came here for an outside opinion.

Thanks for listening.
Well, she's been lying about something, and she's feeling guilty about it.

You have two options before you...

1. "I know you've been seeing someone. Maybe even more than someone. There are simply too many inconsistencies in much of what you've been telling me. I want the truth, and I want it now."

If she wavers at all, stay on point -- you want the truth, and you want it now. At the same time, don't go into details regarding the inconsistencies. Make no mention of what doesn't add up. This will give her no opportunity to gaslight.

The problem w/ this approach is that, if she is cheating, she'll likely just lie about it.

That said, you know your wife. If you think you can get her to crack w/ a stone-faced semi-bluff, go for it. If it doesn't work though, and there is something going on, she'll just take it underground, making it even more difficult for you to detect.

2. Say nothing. Act as if all is normal and quietly begin monitoring her more closely. Check out @weightlifter's "Standard Evidence Post" thread in the CWI forum for advice on how to go about doing that. Be sure to pay special attention to the "mouth shut, eyes open" mantra.
 
#4 ·
Well, she's been lying about something, and she's feeling guilty about it.
100% correct.
You have two options before you...

1. "I know you've been seeing someone. Maybe even more than someone. There are simply too many inconsistencies in much of what you've been telling me. I want the truth, and I want it now."

If she wavers at all, stay on point -- you want the truth, and you want it now. At the same time, don't go into details regarding the inconsistencies. Make no mention of what doesn't add up. This will give her no opportunity to gaslight.

The problem w/ this approach is that, if she is cheating, she'll likely just lie about it.

That said, you know your wife. If you think you can get her to crack w/ a stone-faced semi-bluff, go for it. If it doesn't work though, and there is something going on, she'll just take it underground, making it even more difficult for you to detect.
This isn't the specific approach that I extol, but it can meet some degree of success. One can make your option #1 more successful by objectively scrutinizing her response. The problem with confrontations is that individuals tend to be asking for the truth, rather than laying it out. If one is asking, then it is implied that there is room for an argument/debate.

There are other behaviors that need to be seriously addressed, as well. Fits of rage have no place in a healthy relationship. I say this to highlight the need for there to be serious consideration given by her. She can't just give a believable excuse and all is well.
 
#5 ·
She obviously is not happy with the way things are and loves you and wants to be with you. But there is something strange going on. My husband knows where I am at all times, who I am with and exactly what I am doing. I know where he is at all times. It is a matter of respect. Transparency. Desire to always be loyal and faithful. You can have that too, but you need to let her know that is what you expect. You have lost trust. I am sorry about that, but it is a fact now and she needs to understand that once trust is lost, it has to be built back. Often that happens through great accountability and really good boundaries. (i.e.: She wants you to put a tracker on her phone so that you KNOW where she is. She calls you every time she is out and puts it on speaker so that the person she is with can say hi as well, she limits the "going out" for the time being to prove that you are more important than anything in her life).

Basically her actions need to back up her words and her commitment. Which i think is what you are struggling with now - they don't.

My husband and I talk alot about "hedges" around our marriage. These protect our marriage from things intentional and unintentional conscious and unconscious that may impact our relationship. He NEVER goes out with a woman alone. I NEVER go out with a man alone. It doesn't even matter how good of friends we are. it doesn't matter if the woman is his boss. He doesn't go and he is respected for it. When he is not home, I never let another man in the door. I will go out side and chat or talk, but never inside. We know each other's passwords on all devices - complete transparency. These are all hedges and they protect us and give us such a great trust and unity. I hope you can get to that point with your wife for the sake of you, her and the kids.
 
#9 ·
Put a tracker and a VAR in her car.

As for the business trips why does she go alone? What exactly does she do?

For the next trip can you hire a PI in the city she's going and track her?

I would end it just for the sheer agony she must be putting you through, it's no way to be in a marriage when you're paranoid about what the other person is doing.

Don't buy the tear either. She's boxed into a corner..why exactly would she say do you still want to be with me if she's just meeting up for donuts and ice creams? She knows you're onto her.
 
#10 ·
Your ages?

What's the basic story on the schooling for you both?

How often does she travel and what is the general context of the trips? Vegas conventions, new employee recruitment, visiting suppliers, visiting customers?

If you do confront her, record it. Your cell phone can be used for that function, or buy a good Sony voice-activate-recorder and have it in your pocket. The reason is so you can go back later. I always missed things when having confrontations or discussions with my stbxw. Then later, maybe an hour maybe a couple of days, the light would go on and I'd wonder what exactly she said. Did she say what I remember or was it slightly different? Practice so you know how to operate the recorder and ensure it makes no sounds, beeps, etc during use.

You may find minor inconsistencies. It is not certain those are proof of anything, because memories are quite fallible. If she says she went somewhere at 2:30 and you have gps proof it wasn't until 3:00 it isn't necessarily a lie. So when you record the conversation, pay attention to details but don't be hair trigger to convict her.

I would review all the financial statements and phone bills going back several years. Look for those oddball things. Also, carefully search for any hidden secret cell phones or other suspicious items (condoms, condom wrappers, hotel key cards, love notes, gifts, etc). Make sure you put everything back precisely as you found it. Her closet and all the clothing, bags, shoes, etc. Her dresser. Her car including every cubby and compartment, even the spare tire area.

I would VAR her car and keylog the family computer if she uses that.
 
#15 ·
I'm 34 and she's 32. She has a Master's Degree and writing for her PhD. I have an undergrad and working on graduate. We have good jobs, both from upper middle class families, etc. She's not a risk taker, that's why I'm so confused on her actions. She takes trips for conventions or classes. I've gone on some with her, she's gone on some with me. It's a perk of both of our jobs and has been going on for some time.

A few curve balls: She has a work phone and so do I, we don't share a phone account. We both have work computers only. Hard to spy when I don't know her NT password to get in... and I only know her phone information because one of our children's iPad's uses her itunes account. We have separate bank accounts although on both and cross account transfers capable. I moved large amounts of money out of a few accounts today into a savings account I can only get to. We dont have joint credit cards. She's not the neatest person in the world, so when I rummage I'm not to careful.. it may come back to bite me in the end. She has clinical ADHD and is medicated for it. I really don't have the proof here, just tired of feeling like I may be taken for a ride.

Thanks everyone for your replies. We're in limbo... as she knows I'm upset. I'm not talking much right now.
 
#11 ·
Right now is the time to play dumb with her. Stfu. Do some investigation, get your ducks in a row. Never confront until you either have solid proof or you are ready to walk away anyhow. Cheaters always always play the same game. They deny and they gaslight until you prove to them you know for sure and have the solid proof. Then they only admit to what they think you already know. Always, every time. If you confront without hard evidence she will lie, deny, gaslight, and probably throw counter accusations back at you.

The more she realizes that you are suspicious, the more careful she will be. And that makes it harder for you to discover the truth. So for now you stfu and investigate. It only takes a few days up to maybe a couple of weeks to get the data you need.
 
#14 ·
McGyver

Regardless of where your thread winds up, you have two distinct choices here. But before I tell you those you must understand that married women do not DISAPPEAR off the radar, refuse to answer their husbands texts, and them lie their asses off unless there is something going on. That something is what you are clueless about and what brought you here.

Now your two choices are
(1) accept and be intimidated by her indignation that she goes out alone and "ghosts" you as well as lies to you about what she is doing on business trips. You can put your head in the sand and HOPE what is right in front of you is a mirage. I suggest before taking this option you google "signs your wife is cheating". My bet is there are more that you have not revealed here.

(2) decide that you "gut" is churning for a valid reason and that mean you have no alternative but to snoop. And she has given you every reason to take this option.

Should you choose option 2, and I hope you do, you need a VAR in her car and a GPS on it ( since she already believes you are tracking her phone). My bet is if she has a boyfriend close to home you will know that in less than a few days. If she is cheating she is going to be talking to htis OM, and I'm guessing you do not have access to her electronics ( another red flag).

The more you question hear with what you have revealed in your post, the further underground and careful she will be.

But in the end you either stay in denial or you don't. I hope you pick the right option
 
#17 ·
Usually people will not use a family computer anymore to do anything "they don't want to

be caught doing"

Does she always have her work phone locked? A VAR will help you see if there is a burner

phone too. I've been here four years and it still amazes me how many WS still use a DC/CC...

and leave a paper trail.
 
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#18 ·
McGyver,


You ju yourself wrote why you need to make your first stop tomorrow morning Best Buy and for less than $100 you can buy the necessary VAR to find out what she is up to in less than a week. The techies will tell you here exactly what to buy. Do it and you will make a decision from knowledge.

With separate work electronics you will not catch her without being proactive here.
 
#19 ·
>My husband and I talk alot about "hedges" around our marriage. These protect our marriage from things intentional and unintentional conscious and unconscious that may impact our relationship. He NEVER goes out with a woman alone. I NEVER go out with a man alone. It doesn't even matter how good of friends we are. it doesn't matter if the woman is his boss. He doesn't go and he is respected for it. When he is not home, I never let another man in the door. I will go out side and chat or talk, but never inside. We know each other's passwords on all devices - complete transparency. These are all hedges and they protect us and give us such a great trust and unity. I hope you can get to that point with your wife for the sake of you, her and the kids.<

Kudos.

OP. Start faking it better. You have a stomach bug if she asks. Read the standard evidence post. Stay off devices that dont belong to either of you. Take alternate paths of evidence gathering.
 
#20 ·
First of all, I'm sorry. This worry is all consuming. Second, you need to decide what you want. Based on the fact that she cried all night tells me that you have the leverage. If something is going on she wants you and the family more.

So what do you want? Do you want to go to therapy? Ask. Do you want travel cut back? Ask. Or do you want more attention? Ask.

If you need to know, then you go to her and say, I want to talk about the other night. Watch body language, see how defensive she gets, etc. (please note some defense could be due to you nagging or asking about this too much)

And the be quiet. Let her squirm. Then if she goes off in one direction and then comes back to another, and is very upset and you can tell rattled. You say, "that's really disappointing I thought we were better than this and you could just be honest." And walk away calmly.

That sentence will plaque her with worry and eventually she will slip or confess. That is if she is guilty. It's important to not talk about the details. But stay quiet so she doesn't know what information you have.

After that you choose what you want. Do you want to fix it (reread top) or do you want to walk. Then you rally friends and family cause you will need support along with your decision.

My guess is you will stay and work on it. Make sure you go to a specialized marriage counselor that has training in infidelity.

Check out this article for awesome tips to help: http://www.southmetrocounseling.com...st-marriage-counselor-or-one-thats-full-of-bs

And you work on what caused the stray. There's almost always a reason and a way to fix it (imo).


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#21 ·
First of all, I'm sorry. This worry is all consuming. Second, you need to decide what you want. Based on the fact that she cried all night tells me that you have the leverage. If something is going on she wants you and the family more.

So what do you want? Do you want to go to therapy? Ask. Do you want travel cut back? Ask. Or do you want more attention? Ask.

If you need to know, then you go to her and say, I want to talk about the other night. Watch body language, see how defensive she gets, etc. (please note some defense could be due to you nagging or asking about this too much)

And the be quiet. Let her squirm. Then if she goes off in one direction and then comes back to another, and is very upset and you can tell rattled. You say, "that's really disappointing I thought we were better than this and you could just be honest." And walk away calmly.

That sentence will plaque her with worry and eventually she will slip or confess. That is if she is guilty. It's important to not talk about the details. But stay quiet so she doesn't know what information you have.

After that you choose what you want. Do you want to fix it (reread top) or do you want to walk. Then you rally friends and family cause you will need support along with your decision.

My guess is you will stay and work on it. Make sure you go to a specialized marriage counselor that has training in infidelity.

Check out this article for awesome tips to help: Top 10 Ways To Tell if You're Getting The Best Marriage Counselor or Getting Shafted - SMC

And you work on what caused the stray. There's almost always a reason and a way to fix it (imo).


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Probably the best advice I've heard so far. I feel like a damn idiot with a GPS tracking on her vehicle and listening to her in her car. It's making ME crazy. She doesn't talk much in the car so far and the one conversation she had I could hear her talking about her dissertation paper to someone. It was about a 10 minute conversation. I could make out most of it but the engine noise (yes I tried cleaning up with audacity per/youtube) kept me from every word. That conversation was deleted from her phone call log and I cannot see her bill so I don't know who it was but it doesn't seem worrisome. She came home and told me almost the exact same thing when she got home. Obviously we've talked a lot about the relationship in the last week. I think we get it back on track, and so does she, but I just cannot get happy. I *THINK* something may have happened but I don't think it is going on right now and she will never tell me.

Thank you for the positive outlook. Like I said, playing detective is just not me. If I get caught it will break her heart.
 
#25 ·
Trust your own gut, mcgyver. I've found that free advice is worth exactly the price you pay for it. Better to get a person qualified at finding a solution moving forward and not somebody else who's also been jilted and motivated to establish background for an ironclad divorce settlement. There seems to be this inherent paranoia that I can only guess involves some sort of projection by others on to your situation. I'm not saying put your head in the sand, but neither am I saying that you should subscribe to the paranoia being peddled here. You need to take the high road but also ensure that you and your interests are protected from this. All the rest is "he said, she said" and diminishes both of you in the eyes of others.

That being said, as a parent and a caregiver here's my biased advice: FAMILY should come first. Not work, not school - FAMILY. I see you have young kids. Understand that this is going to affect them in some manner. Talk with your wife about your kids' concerns. Talk about both the good (milestones, things the kids did today, etc.) and the bad (problems with discipline, concerns with the preschool teacher, issues with certain types of kids on the playground, etc.) Hopefully that puts things in perspective for your wife.

You two are PARENTS and need to be a team. There are PLENTY of things that are going to try and divide your family. IMO a parent doesn't get a pass just because they have to work, study - and LEAST OF ALL NETWORK in the interest of career advancement and "team building." Conversely, resist the urge to argue in front of your kids. They will see this and know who's the weaker of the two and use that to forward their own agendas. I've seen it in my own family, even as early as 3 years old - and it SHOULDN'T be written off as the "terrible twos." Kids know. Trust me.
 
#27 ·
1. You know what happens when you spy and tell the woman what you found out?

She becomes paranoid. Looks over her shoulder all the time. Feels trapped. Feels like someone is watching her all the time.

That's not a good formula for a successful marriage.

Spying is always the wrong answer unless you are 100% prepared to take the "evidence" you get and act on it. Meaning if she is cheating you divorce.

Otherwise you have just created a new mess whereby the woman, even if she says she will stop cheating, will not trust you and will not feel safe with you.

That is what spying does.

Best Approach

Simply sit down, and have a calm and cool conversation. Tell her what you are thinking and feeling by what you know. And then let her react to it. Listen to her and don't try to interrupt or question her or tell her what to do.

After that if I was you, I'd sharpen myself and make sure I am doing the right behaviors to make her feel

Safe - Special - Happy

And to behave in a way the promotes high trust (masculine behaviors)

That is a formula for success.


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#32 ·
That's it. I asked her about it directly and she said she has never cheated on me. I mentioned some details that were brought up and she didn't deny going to the bar, but said it was once. Per/Text message conversation I knew it was twice but I didn't divulge that information at the time, and she had trouble looking me in the eye for about 3 minutes. I'm trying to get myself past it what I believe happened. Yesterday I heard on the recording as she was pulling out of her parking spot at work she nailed a curb with her front bumper. She cursed herself for it pretty good, and I brought it up this morning after seeing it as we were leaving (it's very noticeable damage) and she played it off like she didn't know what happened, she "must" have hit something. I decided not to give her a hard time about it. I just don't know where to be with this relationship anymore. After a lengthy conversation the other night I feel like we got to a better place, but caught her in another lie. I made it a point to give her a hard time about where she spent some money to get her to hopefully talk in her car and it worked. I cannot make out the conversation in full because of engine noise and the radio was on, but I got the gist of her complaining really hard about me giving her a hard time about it to someone. She told me that night that I'm the only person she has to talk to about these relationship problems. Another lie. I've never had a reason to not trust her until recently. I want to believe it's just coincidence. But.. she keeps lying. I'm going on a guys trip in 2 weeks out of town for 3 nights, she wont have the kids 2 of them. I decided to keep the real time GPS tracking on her car during that time to see what transpires and will go from there. It's making me sick to my stomach...
 
#33 ·
The more one lies, the easier it gets... it is troubling and addictive behavior for sure.

I just recently read this article:

Forbes Welcome

It doesn't excuse it, but it does add an explanation for what decreases and thus triggers the desire to expand.
 
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#38 ·
Some people just lie when they don't need to. It's their nature and gets easier as time goes by. Hitting the curb, for example. She didn't need to lie, it was the path of least resistance.
 
#34 ·
Put a var in the bedroom.

Also if you can place a micro cam on the entrances of the home then you will see who comes in and out.

If you can get out of the guys weekend then watch and see what happens. Rent a car, use the gps on the car to see where she goes. Follow her and it doesn't matter if she gets away for a little.

Or

Hire a pi to follow her.
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#35 · (Edited)
If your state allows you to print out separation/divorce papers off the internet do this. Tell her you deserve the truth that you know she is talking to someone about this and something has happened. Besides the info you have tell her her body language has give her away as well (she is acting guilty). Do not let her break in, get out what you have to say and ask for a direct answer. If she still deny's then hand her the papers and ask her to move out of the bedroom or move your stuff out into a spare room.
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#37 ·
Can you move the VAR in the car to a better location? Or you might get a wired mic for the VAR which you can run to a better location. I've read of people putting the VAR up under the dashboard where it is easy to remove but hard to see. Then run the plug-in mic to a gap like where the steering column goes into the dash. Use little zip ties or Velcro wraps to secure the mic and wire. Except for a trained mechanic nobody would know it wasn't supposed to be there.
 
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