Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long) - Page 7 - Talk About Marriage
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post #91 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 01:33 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

But what if it wasn't any of that? What if she was just bored and wanted to fvck the guy?

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post #92 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 01:37 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

That is part of the dynamic I did not touch on as yet while waiting for you to digest the first part. You describe the transformation of the knighting white shining into the abuser. Spanking was the trigger/excuse waiting in the wings.

Thinking about this: in the end we all seek the love we think we deserve. Then think about the type of guys CSA victims choose to commit adultery. Would these be the type a health person even chose to associate with ? It could be in a sense her own need to be in in an abusive relationship caused her to view you as abusive and then flee. @Uptown has dealt with and posted here at length on dealing with BPD. CSA in cases may cause BPD. Many of the acting out are the same. Here is one post that applies in different forms in both


Generally, you will not find the full-blown BPDers to be scary at all. The vast majority of them are high functioning individuals who typically exhibit a warmth, spontaneity, and childlike purity of expression that makes them very likable, fun, and easy to fall in love with. Indeed, two of the world's most beloved women -- Marilyn Monroe and Princess Diana -- both exhibited full-blown BPD if their biographers are correct. You typically will never see a BPDer's dark side unless you make the mistake of trying to establish a close friendship, at which point you will start triggering the BPDer's two fears (abandonment and engulfment).

How to deal with an unrepentant spouse: an Irish person can tell a person to go to hell and have them so excited at the prospect they demand to know when, where the train is leaving and how to get a ticket. Then offer them a loan to get the ticket and a ride to the train station. Be Irish
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post #93 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 01:43 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

I also believe both BPD and CSA victims are prone to limerence in an attempt to escape themselves. Yes sometimes they are right, it is not you - it is them.


What Is Limerence?

We use the term limerence for this strong emotion. It was coined in 1979 by Dorothy Tennov. In her book Love and Limerence she listed a number of characteristics of limerence including:

• intrusive thinking about the person one is madly in love with (referred to as the Limerent Object or LO)

• strong, pervasive longing for the LO to reciprocate the emotion

• feelings of euphoria or ecstasy when any action by the LO is interpreted as demonstrating reciprocal emotions

• obsessive thinking about the LO to the point that many other things, even important things, are ignored or neglected

• a powerful perception that the LO is nearly flawless (good qualities are magnified; bad qualities strongly minimized)

• sexual desire for the LO

Neither a straying spouse nor a paramour in limerence sees the future as it likely will be. They exist in the throes of ecstasy that come with limerence, as well as the pits of fear when anything occurs that has any possibility of preventing them from being together. That fear leads each of them not only to experience exuberance when the LO demonstrates positive emotion, but also worry and despair if they interpret any word or action from the LO as negative. Those of us who have been through limerence testify that it is a strange, overwhelming sensation that vacillates wildly between love and fear, joy and misery. That’s why logic doesn’t work with people in limerence. It’s such a powerful emotion that it denies the logic that confronts it.


See any of this in your wife's relationship. See OM knows this and is loving the free ride. The question in this case is not how do you get your wife to stop, it is how to make him get out of your marriage. If you don't he will be in your divorce egging her on.

How to deal with an unrepentant spouse: an Irish person can tell a person to go to hell and have them so excited at the prospect they demand to know when, where the train is leaving and how to get a ticket. Then offer them a loan to get the ticket and a ride to the train station. Be Irish
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post #94 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 01:44 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

There was a one season TV show that when the lead actor was asked why he only dated crazy woman responded: the sex is amazing!

How to deal with an unrepentant spouse: an Irish person can tell a person to go to hell and have them so excited at the prospect they demand to know when, where the train is leaving and how to get a ticket. Then offer them a loan to get the ticket and a ride to the train station. Be Irish
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post #95 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 01:52 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

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Originally Posted by JayOwen View Post
This hits VERY close to home. The crux of the issues she has described to me over the past few years was that she disliked how I spanked our kids. It's how I was raised, and it was never anything more than a spank on the bottom but I can make no excuses, it's not something I'm proud of now, and it's something I stopped awhile ago (1-2 years ago). I thought we had worked on it and solved it, I couldn't figure out why her anger and walled off feelings only seemed to be growing worse after I had worked on it.

She told me she had told her therapist about the spanking (again we're at AT LEAST a year since the last MILD spanking had stopped) and she said that the way she described it had appalled her counselor. I asked her to describe what she said, and when she did I realized she was not describing me spanking our son, but something that sounded awfully close to what it must have been to be beaten as a child, or watching her younger brother be beaten (she tried to protect him and was unable -- he's a recovering heroin addict today -- and I now realize that our problems coincide almost exactly with when our eldest son -- i.e. the stand-in for her baby brother -- first became old enough to get into trouble, i.e. scolding and spanking -- roughly 3 years ago).

It was not until recently that I understood how severe the abuse was. I realize now when she said "please stop spanking" she was saying "you're triggering my most severe trauma". Except she wasn't just doing that. All the anger that had never been unleashed on her parents (who she worships to this day) that she had been repressing for 40 years now had an outlet. It was being translated onto me.

I think she's very literally made me into her abuser because she's never let any of this go (never went to therapy).

And then she very literally punished the "abuser" -- me, now bearing the weight of the horrendous **** that happened to her as a child -- first by increasingly denying me any kind of support or affection, and then when that didn't prove to be punishment enough (i.e. I was still sticking around and trying to be good to her) she took it the most vicious level she could think of: ****ing the man next door, the meathead idiot opposite of me, the annoying neighbor I so frequently griped about, despite my express denial of permission, and in such a way that she she constantly risked being caught.

I know this is all navel-gazing, but it makes so much sense to me.
It's good to have this epiphany. Now, you understand her better than she understands herself. But you can't do the work for her. If SHE'S not willing to sort this out within herself, then your marriage still cannot recover. Personality is nearly immutable, unfortunately.

And sticking around to prove her wrong about not being worth sticking around for will only continue your own suffering. At some point, for the sake of your children, you have to stop hoping your wife will have her own epiphany, and start focusing on yourself and on them. You can't fix your wife. But you can make sure your children grow up with the influence of at least one stable parent, which you can't be if your whole life is spent trying to rescue your wife from herself.
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post #96 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 01:58 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

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Originally Posted by JayOwen View Post
I'm 35, wife is 42

We built a life, a house, kids, rhythms

we've got a family (3 babies in four years, it was intentional!).

I wanted to give her the family she never thought she’d have.

We were roommates. We worked great as parents, but we were nothing beyond that. I had a wife, but I no longer had a lover.
He’s a personal trainer, an Ironman athlete (key note: she used to be too, it was a huge part of her life before me, both of her major long-term relationships before me were men nearly identical to Fitness Bro – I wish I had known that).
Your wife sowed her wild oats with hot bad boy types. Unfortunately those types tend not to provide the stability and security needed for a family. Female fertility starts dropping around age 30. She needed a nester nice guy like you. Those qualities were what she found attractive in you.

Think of her as your teenage daughter who was dating a bad boy you didn’t approve of. She had you for security and stability and the OM for fun. She’s upset because she doesn’t want to lose what you provide. She may “love” you but it’s like loving a family member. The only leverage a dad has over a teenage girl in heat is to let them know that they can be kicked out of the house. (No more security from dad). She will tell daddy whatever it takes to keep her room then sneak out of her window at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JayOwen View Post
I've started calling it the Alien. My wife is gone, the Alien is here, and I find it hard to give a **** what that thing does now.
Invasion of the Body Snatchers (Movie)
“In San Francisco, a group of people discover the human race is being replaced one by one, with clones devoid of emotion.”
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post #97 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 02:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnA View Post
I also believe both BPD and CSA victims are prone to limerence in an attempt to escape themselves. Yes sometimes they are right, it is not you - it is them.


What Is Limerence?

We use the term limerence for this strong emotion. It was coined in 1979 by Dorothy Tennov. In her book Love and Limerence she listed a number of characteristics of limerence including:

• intrusive thinking about the person one is madly in love with (referred to as the Limerent Object or LO)

• strong, pervasive longing for the LO to reciprocate the emotion

• feelings of euphoria or ecstasy when any action by the LO is interpreted as demonstrating reciprocal emotions

• obsessive thinking about the LO to the point that many other things, even important things, are ignored or neglected

• a powerful perception that the LO is nearly flawless (good qualities are magnified; bad qualities strongly minimized)

• sexual desire for the LO

Neither a straying spouse nor a paramour in limerence sees the future as it likely will be. They exist in the throes of ecstasy that come with limerence, as well as the pits of fear when anything occurs that has any possibility of preventing them from being together. That fear leads each of them not only to experience exuberance when the LO demonstrates positive emotion, but also worry and despair if they interpret any word or action from the LO as negative. Those of us who have been through limerence testify that it is a strange, overwhelming sensation that vacillates wildly between love and fear, joy and misery. That’s why logic doesn’t work with people in limerence. It’s such a powerful emotion that it denies the logic that confronts it.


See any of this in your wife's relationship. See OM knows this and is loving the free ride. The question in this case is not how do you get your wife to stop, it is how to make him get out of your marriage. If you don't he will be in your divorce egging her on.
HOLY.

F*CKING.

SH*T.

So much.
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post #98 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 02:11 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

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Originally Posted by Hopeful Cynic View Post
It's good to have this epiphany. Now, you understand her better than she understands herself. But you can't do the work for her. If SHE'S not willing to sort this out within herself, then your marriage still cannot recover. Personality is nearly immutable, unfortunately.

And sticking around to prove her wrong about not being worth sticking around for will only continue your own suffering. At some point, for the sake of your children, you have to stop hoping your wife will have her own epiphany, and start focusing on yourself and on them. You can't fix your wife. But you can make sure your children grow up with the influence of at least one stable parent, which you can't be if your whole life is spent trying to rescue your wife from herself.
Oh, believe me, this epiphany is causing me to **** BRICKS. There will be NO sticking around after this. Right now my urgent, URGENT priority is to verify that she could not ever pose any danger to my children. I have a lot of reading to do.

Last edited by JayOwen; 04-13-2017 at 10:50 PM. Reason: edited for personal/identifying details
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post #99 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 02:40 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

@Hopeful Cynic YES!

@jay Owens this does not mean she is a worthless piece of **** to be dumped on. It is a challenge and a pathway to heal yourself and her. She is broken. Do not break her more, but don't destroy yourself that is what I am trying to convery to you. Separate with no dating but strive to ensure she is in a safe place to heal. Refuse offers of sex. Demand sex not from a place of need to bind. Do not throw her background in her face ! Do you really want to be a yet another person to harm her? Divorce her if you need to or she will not help herself but do so gently.

While I have no sympathy for Adulterers and nothing but scorn, I do have sympathy for persons broken by abuse and want to see them Heal.

How to deal with an unrepentant spouse: an Irish person can tell a person to go to hell and have them so excited at the prospect they demand to know when, where the train is leaving and how to get a ticket. Then offer them a loan to get the ticket and a ride to the train station. Be Irish
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post #100 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 02:43 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

Danger ? What dangers be clear in the sense for any child, a daughter specifically, a son specifically. A list for both.


How to deal with an unrepentant spouse: an Irish person can tell a person to go to hell and have them so excited at the prospect they demand to know when, where the train is leaving and how to get a ticket. Then offer them a loan to get the ticket and a ride to the train station. Be Irish
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post #101 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 03:45 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

@JayOwen .... you are doing a lot of rationalizing for your wife's behavior right now and that's very typical of BH's in the wake of d-day. Right now I think you are following a script that you have in your head entitled "how to act when a horrible thing happens" and really are not committed to any course of action that requires careful consideration both intellectually and emotionally. A voice inside of you is saying "Hey - this isn't THAT bad. Men go through this all the time. She's sorry and wants to keep trying. I'll get over this in time". This is the insidious part of denial. You are denying the impact this will have on you and your marriage because to believe anything else is terrifying. This phase will pass when you are ready to face the real-life impact of your wife cheating on you.

In a few of our posts you seem to think that many of us are "rooting" for you to divorce. In my case this could not be further from the truth. I believe that every BH should divorce his WW because they will heal faster and, in my experience, never regret that choice. Whatever path you choose I will contribute my feedback based on my experiences. As an anonymous stranger I care that you find peace with all of this but not that you do one thing or the other. I think most of us contributing on TAM feel this way.
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post #102 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 04:13 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

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Danger ? What dangers be clear in the sense for any child, a daughter specifically, a son specifically. A list for both.
This is what I'm trying to grasp. What dangers do you see directly to the children?

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #103 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 04:15 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

Jay, do yourself a favor. Take a step back, take a deep breath, and realize that what you do or do not do in this immediate moment will have no impact on how things will be 3 weeks, 3 months, or 3 years from now.

Can you do that?

There is a stark difference between taking action because action is necessary versus taking action because you feel like you need to do something.

Do you see the difference?

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #104 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 04:41 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

Jay I think what would be good is for you to back off and cool off and get some perspective. I think you need to get the hell out of Dodge. Can you go away somewhere alone for the weekend and just go somewhere quiet and absorb what you have been reading and rest your nerves?
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post #105 of 247 (permalink) Old 10-28-2016, 05:32 PM
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Re: Here goes nothing... (sorry, very long)

JayOwen,

One threat to your childrens well being is the OM himself, it's often missed that not only is the OM harming you in a very real way, but he is directly attacking your children.

Some statistics I've seen indicate that step parents from an affair make the worst kind, and are the most likely to physically, sexually and emotionally abuse their step children. With you out of the way the children become his rivals for your WWs love. Over time he will slowly try to alienate your WW from her children as well.

This is why I recommend carpet bombing OMs life first, as he has no biological bond to your children and must be driven off.

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