RT's Ultimate Affair Plan - Page 19 - Talk About Marriage
Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #271 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-08-2017, 11:34 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by MAJDEATH View Post
Not sure where you get that number from. It's probably closer to 10%, but most will never know their partner stepped out.
It was a very large study done. I know may who have never cheated and never would.

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post #272 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-09-2017, 01:47 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Not sure where you get that number from. It's probably closer to 10%, but most will never know their partner stepped out.
Do you honestly believe that 90% of committed exclusive relationship partners cheat?

I know you didn't get that from any sort of study, it just sounds good or something, or maybe validates your wayward wife's actions in your own mind or because it's been your own personal experience you project this onto others. But it's completely untrue.
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post #273 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 07:56 AM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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It was a very large study done. I know may who have never cheated and never would.
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Originally Posted by browser View Post
Do you honestly believe that 90% of committed exclusive relationship partners cheat?

I know you didn't get that from any sort of study, it just sounds good or something, or maybe validates your wayward wife's actions in your own mind or because it's been your own personal experience you project this onto others. But it's completely untrue.
The numbers are all over the place in regards to how many cheat. I've talked about it a lot in this thread, referencing the most widely cited research (Glass & Wright). It is safer to be VERY specific in how one qualifies "cheating". In Treating Infidelity (Weeks, et. al, 2003), we see this dilemma brought up. If we are going to reference statistics, then lets describe what they mean. 20-70% is the range. The higher end includes more types of cheating. The low end of the range is exclusive of a lot of things. Consider it like you would a definition. Then there are the many studies that present statistics of about half of all married couples include an instance of an affair. The ultimate answer is very hard to know. Researchers can fail to get the accurate number for a lot of reasons, even if their methods are sound.

For me, it is best for each couple to make their own definition of what constitutes cheating and set appropriate boundaries. Solo masturbation could be cheating to one couple. "Soft-swapping" could be harmless to another.

That said, I have seen higher numbers than 70%, but that has only been from blogs or articles. Those sources might reference the published journal literature, but be taking it out of context or misquoting it. They also might reference some online survey done, which isn't really scientifically valid, given the inability to get a representative sample.

I have briefly referenced the statistics. If more information about them is desired, please make a specific request so that I can look through my library.


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post #274 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 09:13 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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The numbers are all over the place in regards to how many cheat. . 20-70% is the range.
So in summary, from your research, the statistics are useless.

Got it.
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post #275 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 01:53 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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So in summary, from your research, the statistics are useless.

Got it.

The low end of the range (20%) is going to be mostly only looking at sexual affairs.

The high end of the range (70%) is going to be looking at sex, kissing, watching pornography, flirting, etc.

The cleanest, most digestible number is around 50%, which includes a definition of cheating that the median individual can understand and relate to.

All I can say is that we have to understand what the statistics tell us and be very specific in doing so.


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post #276 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-10-2017, 02:31 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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The low end of the range (20%) is going to be mostly only looking at sexual affairs.

The high end of the range (70%) is going to be looking at sex, kissing, watching pornography, flirting, etc.
Where do foot massages fit into this whole thing? I'm asking for a friend.
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post #277 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 08:04 AM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

A final note to the unfaithful partner. Keep in mind that the process tends to be circular, needing to be repeated.

Have you apologized to the betrayed?

Did you acknowledge the extent of the infidelity? This involves disclosing details which allows the betrayed a lot of closure and understanding.

Have you demonstrated remorse?

Have you exhibited a willingness to change?

Have you cooperated to build safeguards to ensure behavior change?




Reference: Treating Infidelity, Forgiveness is a systemic phenomenon, p. 132 (Weeks, et. al., 2003)


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post #278 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 11:45 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher View Post
The low end of the range (20%) is going to be mostly only looking at sexual affairs.

The high end of the range (70%) is going to be looking at sex, kissing, watching pornography, flirting, etc.

The cleanest, most digestible number is around 50%, which includes a definition of cheating that the median individual can understand and relate to.

All I can say is that we have to understand what the statistics tell us and be very specific in doing so.
While flirting etc isnt right its not cheating in the real sense.
I have heard that about 50% of married people will cheat at some point. Sounds about right from my experience of the many I have known.
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post #279 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-17-2017, 04:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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While flirting etc isnt right its not cheating in the real sense.
I have heard that about 50% of married people will cheat at some point. Sounds about right from my experience of the many I have known.
I agree with your 50% comment.

As far as what is and is not cheating, it is best for the individual couple to come up with what constitutes a violation of marital boundaries in terms of "cheating". This way we eliminate the excuses like the following:

-it was just sex
-it didn't mean anything
-we only kissed
-I wasn't going to sleep with him/her


The more difficult to address are those that take away energy from the relationship but aren't the typical type of cheating. This tends to concern the male partner diverting sexual and emotional energy to porn. There is a professional battle about how to define cheating, infidelity, and affairs, so I may present the results of this to help clarify terms for everyone here.


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post #280 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-19-2017, 08:16 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Catch up on the UAP
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan


Today's post is highly interactive and can be very rewarding to every single couple. That said, I urge every couple to consider implementing the contents of this post, although it seems to be written for newer couples. Most couples don't go through a formal process of setting boundaries and examining them, making this very helpful to do at any time.

I was pondering for weeks as to how to approach boundaries in the UAP, but I ultimately decided to go a practical route versus being informative. Part of this is because the scientific literature doesn't single out boundaries that much. This is no stretch. What they do single out are risk factors. I give clients a real good lesson on boundaries, especially in self-enforcement, but for this forum I want to make it more couples-oriented.

The best source I found was from the Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, entitled Affair-Proofing Questions: Discussion Questions for Couples. The article is very straight forward, offering the typical prototype and explanation of an affair. The meat of the article is to help guide couples through a process of discovery, which ultimately brings them closer to one another. In a relationship, it is common for rules or expectations to be left unsaid, which leaves the other partner with too much of a leash. They often find themselves rationalizing bad behavior because it was never prohibited by their partner.

All of these questions are directly from the research article. Discuss them with your beloved. When having this conversation, use my 80/20 rule, paraphrase and ask questions for understanding, and be honest. (80/20 means listening 80 percent of the time when its the other partner's turn). Save the disputes and arguments for later. This exercise is all about engendering mutual understanding. Coming to an agreement on the terms of the boundaries will be hashed out after each person's position is understood.

Enjoy!

Affair-proofing part 1 (1)

1. How do you define infidelity?

(my comments: It may be necessary to specifically ask about different aspects of infidelity, such as dinner with person of opposite sex, kissing, flirting, etc.. Make no assumptions)

2. Sophie has gotten close to a man she knows from work. Her husband, Ted,
knew nothing about the relationship until he discovered some flirtatious
emails between them. Ted is furious that Sophie is communicating with this
man. Although the man lives in a neighboring state, Ted cannot help but
wonder if they have been seeing each other during business trips. Sophie
says that the emails mean nothing —she was just joking around, and Ted
has nothing to worry about. How can Ted and Sophie handle this situation?
What do they need to do next?


3. A woman caught her partner downloading pornography from various
websites. The woman is outraged by what she sees as “sick behavior” and
feels betrayed. She cannot understand the “need” to use pornography. Her
partner is embarrassed and feels ashamed about getting caught but says,
“It’s no big deal. I was just curious.” Is this a problem? What should the
woman do? What should her partner do?


4. Assuming a couple wants to stay together, what can they do to get beyond
an affair?



5. Do you have to fully trust your partner to begin healing your relationship
after an affair? Can you really trust someone who has cheated on you?
How do you rebuild trust?


6. A couple has been together for eight years and has three children together.
Recently, it was discovered that one of the partners had an emotional
affair that eventually turned into a sexual affair. The unfaithful partner
is scared, confused, and unsure about ending the affair. How can this
couple handle this situation? What do they need to do?


7. Jim had an affair two years ago and Lisa is still grieving and angry at him.
According to Jim, she brings up the affair 5 to 6 times each day. She still
feels mad or upset most of the time, even though Jim says it is over, that he
is sorry, and that he has stayed faithful. How can Jim and Lisa handle this
situation? What do Jim and Lisa need to do next?


8. How do affairs negatively affect children?

9. What can you do to affair-proof your relationship?


I will post the affair-prevention plan next. It is another activity for the couple.



Reference:

1). Piercy, F., et. al (2011). Affair-Proofing Relationships: Discussion Questions for Couples. Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, 10:345–362, 2011



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post #281 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-22-2017, 12:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Catch up on the UAP
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Affair proof your relationship. This is a simple exercise meant to increase understanding and awareness on the topic, but to also come up with a more formal plan on what constitutes the relational boundaries. Discuss with your partner all of these questions, each coming up with a response as it relates to you, your partner, and the relationship.



• What behaviors would you consider to be infidelity and why?
• What guidelines do you and your partner want to agree upon around
socializing and communicating with others?
• What understandings and expectations do you and your partner have
around computer use, pornography, and chat rooms?
• What can you and your partner do to prioritize and nurture your relationship?
• Are you willing to promise to your partner that you will remain faithful?
Consider making that promise together at a special time and place.
• What can you and your partner do to nurture emotional intimacy in your
relationship?
• How might you and your partner show appreciation and love to one another
on a regular basis?
• What can you and your partner do to keep your sex life alive?
• How will you celebrate your love, anniversaries, birthdays, and other special
occasions?
(my added questions)
• What will you do to protect the relationship from boundary violations relating to your behavior?
• What will you do to protect the relationship from boundary violations relating to my behavior?
• What do you consider boundary violations.?

Reference:

1). Piercy, F., et. al (2011). Affair-Proofing Relationships: Discussion Questions for Couples. Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, 10:345–362, 2011


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post #282 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 08:55 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Catch up on the UAP
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

What is infidelity?


I have received a lot of questions and a bit of challenges on this topic, so it would do me well to give a good explanation. The most important thing I can possibly tell you about this topic is that there is a lot of subjectivity to it, meaning that it is not a black and white subject with only one definition. Infidelity means different things to different people and this requires a cohesive approach to every relationship to navigate these issues and to set meaningful boundaries. When in doubt, ask. Never assume that something is or is not a boundary violation. Even if it isn't "infidelity", it can still erode trust and hurt your partner.

For the definition of these matters, I will be using Treating Infidelity (Weeks, et. al, 2003).

A definition that I usually use focuses on the fact that it is a deviation of physical and emotional energy away from the primary relationship. Even if a husband had sex with his secretary, came home, and kissed his wife on the cheek, we are still going to witness a loss of energy to his wife. Shaw (1997) say as much, defining it as "Emotional and/or physical intimacy secretly diverted from the primary relationship." This definition helps us snag the "it was just sex" or "it was nothing, I can't tell my spouse" crowd.

Additional criteria include (p. xiv):

-A betrayal of partner's trust (Glass & Wright, 1997).
-Deception to circumvent discovery of boundary violations (Pittman, 1989).
-Secrecy and lies to create confusion and pain in the partner (Brown, 1991b.)
-Threat to the security of the relationship (Spring, 1996).

Can include:
-sex
-flirting
-touching
-internet activity (porn, instant messaging, emailing)
-"more than friends"

Extramarital sex is defined as: "Genital sexual involvement outside the marriage without express knowledge or consent of one's partner."

What constitutes an emotional affair (p. xvi)?

-A great deal of intimacy. [intimacy includes sharing personal information]
-A strong sense of commitment.
-Sharing of thoughts and feelings that are not revealed to one's committed partner. [If what you are doing is not wrong, then you'd be able to tell your partner.]
-Powerful urges to spend time with the affair partner.
-Secrecy surrounding the relationship.
-A sense in the betrayed partner that matters that are private to the couple are being discussed with the affair partner.


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post #283 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-30-2017, 09:36 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Quote:
Extramarital sex is defined as: "Genital sexual involvement outside the marriage without express knowledge or consent of one's partner."
Just doesn't seem like a very accurate definition of the word/phrase, does it?? Did you jot this down from one of those journals wrong.

Think about it ~~~

If my wife has express knowledge of it OR consents to it, my having genital sexual involvement" with someone besides her would somehow magically become not "extramarital sex"????

I looked up "express knowledge" and this is what I got:

Quote:
Express notice is actual knowledge or notice given to a party directly. It implies real delivery of information to a party. It does not arise from any inference.
The way this is written, if accurate, means any wayward spouse that walked out of the house telling their betrayed spouse in no uncertain terms or by say, text or email, that they are off to bang bang their affair partner that, due to such marital partner having EXPRESS KNOWLEDGE of the genital sexual involvement, it is no longer "extramarital sex".

The more I think about this I just think you made a mistake.


Wikipedia:Extramarital sex occurs when a married person engages in sexual activity with someone other than his or her spouse. From a different perspective, it also applies to a single person having sex with a married person

Really, a single person having sex with anyone at all since they'd be unmarried, would be "extramarital".


An even shorter definition: Sexual relations occurring outside marriage. {add the word "Genital" if you like}

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post #284 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 05:06 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher View Post
Catch up on the UAP
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan


Today's post is highly interactive and can be very rewarding to every single couple. That said, I urge every couple to consider implementing the contents of this post, although it seems to be written for newer couples. Most couples don't go through a formal process of setting boundaries and examining them, making this very helpful to do at any time.

I was pondering for weeks as to how to approach boundaries in the UAP, but I ultimately decided to go a practical route versus being informative. Part of this is because the scientific literature doesn't single out boundaries that much. This is no stretch. What they do single out are risk factors. I give clients a real good lesson on boundaries, especially in self-enforcement, but for this forum I want to make it more couples-oriented.

The best source I found was from the Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, entitled Affair-Proofing Questions: Discussion Questions for Couples. The article is very straight forward, offering the typical prototype and explanation of an affair. The meat of the article is to help guide couples through a process of discovery, which ultimately brings them closer to one another. In a relationship, it is common for rules or expectations to be left unsaid, which leaves the other partner with too much of a leash. They often find themselves rationalizing bad behavior because it was never prohibited by their partner.

All of these questions are directly from the research article. Discuss them with your beloved. When having this conversation, use my 80/20 rule, paraphrase and ask questions for understanding, and be honest. (80/20 means listening 80 percent of the time when its the other partner's turn). Save the disputes and arguments for later. This exercise is all about engendering mutual understanding. Coming to an agreement on the terms of the boundaries will be hashed out after each person's position is understood.

Enjoy!

Affair-proofing part 1 (1)

1. How do you define infidelity?

(my comments: It may be necessary to specifically ask about different aspects of infidelity, such as dinner with person of opposite sex, kissing, flirting, etc.. Make no assumptions)

2. Sophie has gotten close to a man she knows from work. Her husband, Ted,
knew nothing about the relationship until he discovered some flirtatious
emails between them. Ted is furious that Sophie is communicating with this
man. Although the man lives in a neighboring state, Ted cannot help but
wonder if they have been seeing each other during business trips. Sophie
says that the emails mean nothing —she was just joking around, and Ted
has nothing to worry about. How can Ted and Sophie handle this situation?
What do they need to do next?


3. A woman caught her partner downloading pornography from various
websites. The woman is outraged by what she sees as “sick behavior” and
feels betrayed. She cannot understand the “need” to use pornography. Her
partner is embarrassed and feels ashamed about getting caught but says,
“It’s no big deal. I was just curious.” Is this a problem? What should the
woman do? What should her partner do?


4. Assuming a couple wants to stay together, what can they do to get beyond
an affair?



5. Do you have to fully trust your partner to begin healing your relationship
after an affair? Can you really trust someone who has cheated on you?
How do you rebuild trust?


6. A couple has been together for eight years and has three children together.
Recently, it was discovered that one of the partners had an emotional
affair that eventually turned into a sexual affair. The unfaithful partner
is scared, confused, and unsure about ending the affair. How can this
couple handle this situation? What do they need to do?


7. Jim had an affair two years ago and Lisa is still grieving and angry at him.
According to Jim, she brings up the affair 5 to 6 times each day. She still
feels mad or upset most of the time, even though Jim says it is over, that he
is sorry, and that he has stayed faithful. How can Jim and Lisa handle this
situation? What do Jim and Lisa need to do next?


8. How do affairs negatively affect children?

9. What can you do to affair-proof your relationship?


I will post the affair-prevention plan next. It is another activity for the couple.



Reference:

1). Piercy, F., et. al (2011). Affair-Proofing Relationships: Discussion Questions for Couples. Journal of Couple & Relationship Therapy, 10:345–362, 2011
Good list of questions, RT. I suspect Dug and I will have all the same answers, but will ask him, anyway.

I think it is good that you are sharing all this research-based info. While experience is also a good teacher, it can be highly subjective and greatly influenced by emotion.

Have you come across anything in your research that describes the way others outside the marriage perceive the infidelity in a marriage, and how that feedback can be helpful to the two people in the marriage, if they can hear it?

For example, sometimes I read an experience of infidelity here, and I am just amazed the man or woman waited as long as they did before cheating, or even wanted to reconcile afterwards. But I often hesitate to share that, as the person telling the story often seems unlikely to appreciate the perspective.

And yet, if they could hear it, it seems to me it could give them a chance to reconsider their own perceived victimhood (which my therapist once said is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to recovery for betrayed spouses, as they can get stuck in it). Being able to hear a different perspective than their own could offer them an opportunity for empowerment, to make changes that could perhaps prevent infidelity, either with the current partner, or in a future relationship.

Anyway, just wondering if there is any actual research on this, as opposed to simple opinion. And thanks again for trying to bring some objectivity and science into this highly emotionally charged subject.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #285 of 326 (permalink) Old 03-31-2017, 07:33 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

@jld:

I am curious if your counselor would hold the same opinion of victimhood towards a rape victim.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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