RT's Ultimate Affair Plan - Page 22 - Talk About Marriage
Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #316 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 10:50 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Thanks for looking into that, RT.

It is interesting that while Anton's dad was understandably triggered by his son's non-exclusivity, he was able to separate his personal emotions from the situation enough to recognize that his daughter-in-law had not been emotionally supportive of his son, and may have contributed to his vulnerability. (His own conscience may have wrestled with that, too.) I think that is the kind of reality check that friends and family can offer, if it can be heard.

Again, thank you for the effort you are putting into this thread. I am sure it seems thankless sometimes. But some of us truly do appreciate the research perspective.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #317 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-10-2017, 11:59 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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You're still likely come in contact with a lot of confirmation bias both in the information you glean as relevant and important as well as the published researchers and their peers that supposedly reviewed these "scientific" journals.
Supposedly?

"Scientific"?

It is commonly purported that only 10 percent of submissions to these journals actually get published. It is a rigorous process and it speaks volumes if the work is valuable enough to do so.


Sure, there is bias. The hallmark of science is that it is a process that roots it out.

Quote:
1. Way earlier in the thread you quoted a supposed "expert" with a Ph.D. from an unaccredited online uneducation institution who for years was the president and publisher of some national swingers club and surprise, his research made positive statements about couples that swing;
I mentioned a statistic that was from his book. You are not telling the truth. In no way did I puff up his credentials. The statistic presented ONLY had to do with the number of marriages that incorporate swinging. It is a figure that is of little use to this thread but I included it because it was interesting.

Quote:
2. This is a very soft science and measuring "success" is very difficult = what is success in this type of counseling let alone research?
Success = it works. They test their hypothesized model for treating infidelity and it becomes established when it is proven to work. In general, we are looking at quality of life and relationship indications over years. I don't choose what happens to work.
Quote:
3. Marriage counselors are notoriously are high risk of divorce, infidelity and marital disatisfaction;
That is an ad hominem argument. The last time I looked, their divorce rates were right with the rest of us. As far as infidelity....you'd have to show me what your source is. If you want to throw out what they do, then I'd ask what you intend to replace it with. I have plenty of criticism for many individual factors, but we overcome that by looking at as much research as possible.

Quote:
4. Wayward marriage counselors are some of the worst researchers in this field ~~ if they'll cheat on their spouse, why would we expect their "soft science" research to not be fudged a bit here and there too?;
I won't comment on them cheating.

Fudging research? I am sure some do, but it won't do any good. Research has to pass the smell test, it has to survive peer scrutiny, and then it has to be reproduced by multiple other research teams. We will always steam roll over the bad science.
Quote:
5. Gottman is mostly considered a leading expert in his field because that's the way he presents himself ~ I believe he worked with Hendrix was it, developing imago therapy for years only to run a study basically "proving" {as much as anything can be proved in this field} that imago therapy was no better than doing absolutely nothing {I liked this conclusion ~ no more listening sticks and teaching active listening conflict resolution ad naus} ~ Gottman also spent years trying to develope a way to ascertain whether a couple would divorce or not by observing them having an argument and after decades trying, he failed
Everyone cites Gottman, meaning that the field of experts finds his work reputable. As far as his predictions, he has multiple models that predict whether a couple will divorce at rates exceeding 80 percent.

No comment on Imago therapy.

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as did the guy
that owns Eharmony.com as well as the esteemed David Olson of University of Minnesota, Owner of Prepare and Enrich. Gottman left his wife for a lab assistant I believe and Karen Olson is David Olson's 4th or 5th wife. These guys are failed wayward researchers that couldn't "save" a marriage if their life depended on it because they see little wrong with infidelity ~~ since they are lifelong adulterers who've abandoned spouses and bore children that don't even speak to them.
No comment.
Quote:
6. Despite Gottman "proving" and publishing peer reviewed research claiming it sucks, Hendrix still claims expertise and sells his imago therapy as a "highly effective" marriage and relationship counseling technique ~ then again, Gottman is a wayward and maybe Hendrix offended him somehow so he set about debunking Hendrix for sport???
No comment.
Quote:

So whatever "immense research" you are doing better include researching every author's marital and behavioral history {to the extent you can} to determine their confirmation bias and, really, reliability. The amount of infidelity among these "researchers" is astounding.
I will not. This is a serious endeavor that I intend to submit to a journal for publishment. The goal is to answer a question that is not sufficiently given in the existing body.
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post #318 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 01:16 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I mentioned a statistic that was from his book. You are not telling the truth. In no way did I puff up his credentials. The statistic presented ONLY had to do with the number of marriages that incorporate swinging. It is a figure that is of little use to this thread but I included it because it was interesting.
I was not trying to indicate you "puffed up" his credentials or that using anything of his blew your whole thread to smithereens. My point is you just that you referenced him without any regard or discernment about the supposed "expert" you were presenting a statistic from.

If you want your paper to be considered seriously by a panel of experts, you might not want to quote anything from some well-known pseudo-expert.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher
Success = it works. They test their hypothesized model for treating infidelity and it becomes established when it is proven to work. In general, we are looking at quality of life and relationship indications over years. I don't choose what happens to work.
I happen to think besides the obvious happily reconciled couples, "success", in the area of infidelity advice, includes a betrayed spouse "successfully" divorcing their unrepentant wayward spouse and moving on in a contented manner to healthier relationships.

I also know couples that might be called a "success" just because they stayed married but they remain miserable together after having rug swept the affair.

I know there are marital satisfaction evaluation tests out there, but measuring "success" is still a very subjective determination.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher
That is an ad hominem argument. The last time I looked, their divorce rates were right with the rest of us. As far as infidelity....you'd have to show me what your source is. If you want to throw out what they do, then I'd ask what you intend to replace it with. I have plenty of criticism for many individual factors, but we overcome that by looking at as much research as possible.
I just went and grabbed the first thing I could find off google. I'm sure you can find a journal or two with better information but it's been a pretty well known fact in the business that counselors, overall, have higher resiliency rates and higher divorce rates. Infidelity rates I just presume based upon what I know and have seen/heard but it makes sense considering their higher resilience scores. Doesn't mean they are all wayward horrible people that don't know anything about marriage and relationships. Just means consumer beware and ask questions.
Researchers McCoy and Aamodt compiled the divorce rates for 449 occupations in the United States. They stated 16.96% reported that they “had been in a marital relationship, but were no longer with their spouse [separated or divorced]” (p. 3). This number is the average of each occupation’s average, which may account for the low number. The current employment status of the sample was not given.
There was not a specific occupation listed as Marriage and Family Therapist in the same study, however, there were multiple occupations in which a Marriage and Family Therapist may fall. McCoy and Aamodt listed the occupation “Therapists, all other” as having a divorce/separation rate of 24.20%, “Sociologists” as 23.53%, “Social workers” as 23.16%, “Counselors” as 22.49%, “Miscellaneous social scientists and workers” as 19.65%, and “Psychologists” as 19.30%. Each one of these categories had a divorce/separation rate well above the national average for all occupations of 16.96%.
Granted, 22-24% is not nearly as high as the rate for Bartenders and Massage Therapists (38%) but it's significantly higher than, say, clergy or optometrists coming in at 4%.
*McCoy, S. P., & Aamodt, M. G. (2010). A comparison of law enforcement divorce rates with those of other occupations. Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, 25, 1-16.
What would my alternative be? Research and find a good MARRIED marriage counselor that's, preferably, never been a wayward spouse. I think wayward counselors shouldn't be allowed to present themselves as legitimate marital counselors but the alternative to that is more likely that they should be required to disclose, upfront, their marital history. Clients should certainly ASK ~ but many don't and wayward therapists will lie anyway. Unfortunately, I believe the best way to recover is becoming your own expert TOGETHER and reading/researching/applying the literature on your own instead of relying on weekly trips to some counselor to "fix" it. Even a good counselor is merely a tool and a part of an overall plan, not the cure by him or herself.


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Fudging research? I am sure some do, but it won't do any good. Research has to pass the smell test, it has to survive peer scrutiny, and then it has to be reproduced by multiple other research teams. We will always steam roll over the bad science. Everyone cites Gottman, meaning that the field of experts finds his work reputable. As far as his predictions, he has multiple models that predict whether a couple will divorce at rates exceeding 80 percent.
I was mistaken, Gottman's on his third wife. He's just your run of the mill wayward admiration junkie.

His models are bogus. The four horsemen are simply symptoms, not the cause of divorce in much the same way hair loss is a symptom of cancer, but you can't cure cancer with Rogaine. Correlation {especially correlation determined in hindsight by a wayward researcher} is NOT causality. Gottman has never actually tested his models on new populations of couples nor predicted a single divorce.

A dissection of John Gottman's love lab.

Quote:
I will not. This is a serious endeavor that I intend to submit to a journal for publishment. The goal is to answer a question that is not sufficiently given in the existing body.
What's the question again? I might be able to either give you the answer or direct you to the some good sources.

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post #319 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 08:32 AM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I was not trying to indicate you "puffed up" his credentials or that using anything of his blew your whole thread to smithereens. My point is you just that you referenced him without any regard or discernment about the supposed "expert" you were presenting a statistic from.

If you want your paper to be considered seriously by a panel of experts, you might not want to quote anything from some well-known pseudo-expert.
My research will only include journal publications, so there is no possibility of using phonies.
Quote:

I happen to think besides the obvious happily reconciled couples, "success", in the area of infidelity advice, includes a betrayed spouse "successfully" divorcing their unrepentant wayward spouse and moving on in a contented manner to healthier relationships.

I also know couples that might be called a "success" just because they stayed married but they remain miserable together after having rug swept the affair.

I know there are marital satisfaction evaluation tests out there, but measuring "success" is still a very subjective determination.
I don't "disagree". My research is going to end up touching on the subject of post-affair reconciliation, but I am not sure it will fully qualify that concern of yours. However, a major requirement for my research is to qualify what differentiates "unhappy", "pretty happy" and "very happy". I am not satisfied with much of the research's assumptions about this. My problem is that there is the assumption that "pretty happy" or "very happy" means that nothing is wrong (generally). A relatively happy male could be completely lacking any semblance of a sex life with his wife, which is all that is needed for him to drop his pants with Susie from accounting.
Quote:
I just went and grabbed the first thing I could find off google. I'm sure you can find a journal or two with better information but it's been a pretty well known fact in the business that counselors, overall, have higher resiliency rates and higher divorce rates. Infidelity rates I just presume based upon what I know and have seen/heard but it makes sense considering their higher resilience scores. Doesn't mean they are all wayward horrible people that don't know anything about marriage and relationships. Just means consumer beware and ask questions.
I want nothing more than for individuals to take everything with a grain of salt. A counselor or therapist still has personal flaws, failures to think critically, and lacks of understanding about issues. So, analogously, we try to find a good mechanic, even though the 10 we are looking at are all ASE certified. I recommend evaluating them against what they are supposed to be and do. It can be hard to discern between good and bad, especially for the average guy/gal, but I do have excellent resources that can help someone make this process easier if they need them. For instance, if John is trying to reconcile with Jane, he might ask me for the aforementioned resource, which is just a 15-30 page publication on the process of therapeutic treatment for couples in regards to infidelity. Because not all are trained in infidelity, they don't all follow a model for treatment of infidelity. My advice is to find someone that uses an established model.


Quote:
Researchers McCoy and Aamodt compiled the divorce rates for 449 occupations in the United States. They stated 16.96% reported that they “had been in a marital relationship, but were no longer with their spouse [separated or divorced]” (p. 3). This number is the average of each occupation’s average, which may account for the low number. The current employment status of the sample was not given.
There was not a specific occupation listed as Marriage and Family Therapist in the same study, however, there were multiple occupations in which a Marriage and Family Therapist may fall. McCoy and Aamodt listed the occupation “Therapists, all other” as having a divorce/separation rate of 24.20%, “Sociologists” as 23.53%, “Social workers” as 23.16%, “Counselors” as 22.49%, “Miscellaneous social scientists and workers” as 19.65%, and “Psychologists” as 19.30%. Each one of these categories had a divorce/separation rate well above the national average for all occupations of 16.96%.
Granted, 22-24% is not nearly as high as the rate for Bartenders and Massage Therapists (38%) but it's significantly higher than, say, clergy or optometrists coming in at 4%.
*McCoy, S. P., & Aamodt, M. G. (2010). A comparison of law enforcement divorce rates with those of other occupations. Journal of Police and Criminal Psychology, 25, 1-16.
That is about what I recall.

Quote:
What would my alternative be? Research and find a good MARRIED marriage counselor that's, preferably, never been a wayward spouse. I think wayward counselors shouldn't be allowed to present themselves as legitimate marital counselors but the alternative to that is more likely that they should be required to disclose, upfront, their marital history. Clients should certainly ASK ~ but many don't and wayward therapists will lie anyway. Unfortunately, I believe the best way to recover is becoming your own expert TOGETHER and reading/researching/applying the literature on your own instead of relying on weekly trips to some counselor to "fix" it. Even a good counselor is merely a tool and a part of an overall plan, not the cure by him or herself.
That is sound advice.
Quote:
I was mistaken, Gottman's on his third wife. He's just your run of the mill wayward admiration junkie.

His models are bogus. The four horsemen are simply symptoms, not the cause of divorce in much the same way hair loss is a symptom of cancer, but you can't cure cancer with Rogaine. Correlation {especially correlation determined in hindsight by a wayward researcher} is NOT causality. Gottman has never actually tested his models on new populations of couples nor predicted a single divorce.

A dissection of John Gottman's love lab.
I would not word it that way if I were explaining it. In general, he gathered data and found patterns in the data. Is it correlation or causation? Well, that doesn't mean it is useless, even if he only found correlations. The "real" causation could be incompatibility that drives the four horsemen. Even so, I would argue that the predictive capacity is there and the existence of the horsemen still means something significant.
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post #320 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 03:02 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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ven so, I would argue that the predictive capacity is there and the existence of the horsemen still means something significant.
Could you elaborate on this, please?

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #321 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 06:03 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Could you elaborate on this, please?
Sure.

This kind of dispute is well explained within the realm of Economic thinking. I thought about it more since @Quality posted, so this will be of value to those interested.

The dispute, it seems, is over what we say "causes" divorce. Quality astutely points out that Gottman's grand models make predictions based upon the existence of certain relational factors.

In The 7 Principles for Making Marriages Work, Gottman (2014, CH.3) lists and explains the "signs" that lead him to predict a couple's trajectory:

1. Harsh Start-up
2. The Four Horsemen (Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling)
3. Flooding
4. Body Language
5. Failed repair attempts
6. Bad memories

@Quality points out that the existence of these does not necessarily imply that these are the cause. This might be similar to the widely disputed "bad relationships = infidelity" claim. What if, instead, 'A' (the 6 aforementioned signs) and 'B' (Divorce) are not causally related, but instead are both affected by 'C' (Incompatibility, Personalities, fill-in-the-blank). In this light, an astute researcher could still come to the correct conclusion 91% of the time about the divorce trajectory.

Is that enough?

Is there, instead, a caveat to be made?

The answer depends on what the couple intends to do with the information. Let's assume that 'Jim' and 'Susie' read Gottman's book and said, "all 6 signs exist every single day with us." If we assume that 'A' (6 signs) and 'B' (divorce) are causally related, then the couple could falsely assume that all they have to do is eliminate the 6 signs and all will be well. This would be how correlation and causation can be confounded and the result would be misapplied effort.

My argument would be that Jim and Susie are missing the point and ignoring how they should interact with another. Avoiding negative expressions to one's partner is an entirely different skill than active listening, empathizing, we-ness, romance and committed behavior. In fact, Jim and Susie could be too focused avoiding the negatives, being hyper-vigilant to their presence. This might be symbolized by making too many complaints.

My advice would be that if the 6 signs symbolize one's relationship, then the next step would be to learn positive placeholders. If they just eliminate some or all of the 6 signs, then there is still a vacuum left. It is more efficacious to replace the maladaptive behaviors with ...... adaptive and healthy ones. So let's call the predictive model a fire alarm, not necessarily the fire.
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post #322 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-13-2017, 11:38 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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This kind of dispute is well explained within the realm of Economic thinking. I thought about it more since @Quality posted, so this will be of value to those interested.

The dispute, it seems, is over what we say "causes" divorce. Quality astutely points out that Gottman's grand models make predictions based upon the existence of certain relational factors.

In case anyone missed reading the article I linked in my last post, but Gottman's "grand models" never actually MADE predictions based upon the existence of certain "signs" and relational factors {and subjective body language} RATHER, Gottman, in hindsight, created models by P-Hacking the data, that WOULD HAVE, with somewhere around 90% percent accuracy, predicted which of the exact 57 couples he videotaped and analyzed 6 years prior, would divorce.

In The 7 Principles for Making Marriages Work, Gottman (2014, CH.3) lists and explains the "signs" that lead him to predict a couple's trajectory:

1. Harsh Start-up
2. The Four Horsemen (Criticism, contempt, defensiveness, stonewalling)
3. Flooding
4. Body Language
5. Failed repair attempts
6. Bad memories

@Quality points out that the existence of these does not necessarily imply that these are the cause. This might be similar to the widely disputed "bad relationships = infidelity" claim. What if, instead, 'A' (the 6 aforementioned signs) and 'B' (Divorce) are not causally related, but instead are both affected by 'C' (Incompatibility, Personalities, fill-in-the-blank). In this light, an astute researcher could still come to the correct conclusion 91% of the time about the divorce trajectory.

Again, no researcher or statistician has verifiably come anywhere close to predicting the future divorces of individual couples within a significant homogenous population of couples anywhere near 90% accuracy. I don't even think 50% accuracy has been achieved or is achievable. Any study of what HAS happened to marriages/divorces, just doesn't apply to what will happen in the future to future marriages. Other than maybe being within one standard deviation of one another in intelligence, I don't think compatibility has all that much to do with the illusory factor 'C', personality probably has implications as does their religious beliefs, practices and|or values. Culture and generational differences along with world events, war, recessions, depressions have a big impact. Porn usage past|present will become an even larger factor correlating to divorce and, perhaps to a lesser extent, the amount of online gaming and other online escapism. Resiliency scores can have an impact as well as race, ethnicity, education, age and income/income potential in the population sense ~ not compatability sense. The list goes on and on and while it's fairly easy to say "contempt" leads to divorce ~~ eventually, you and I deal with couples all the time that START OUT with contempt for one another and find themselves fighting back, learning and adapting new skills and practices and loving one another again, in time. Marriage is, after all, a commitment to love another "in good times, and bad ~ sickness and health" and most every mature happy couple I know can report a season of "criticism, contempt, defensiveness and stonewalling" in their marriage, thus, since any "method of prediction" can only be applied to and assessed in a moment or short period of time of measurement, it will always miss it's mark when it just happens to be a rather "good" season for a couple that ultimately divorces or a "bad" season for a couple that sticks it out and later thrives.



Is that enough?

Is there, instead, a caveat to be made?

Yes, perhaps add: "BUT, THERE IS HOPE ~~ the past doesn't have to be your future.

The answer depends on what the couple intends to do with the information. Let's assume that 'Jim' and 'Susie' read Gottman's book and said, "all 6 signs exist every single day with us." If we assume that 'A' (6 signs) and 'B' (divorce) are causally related, then the couple could falsely assume that all they have to do is eliminate the 6 signs and all will be well. This would be how correlation and causation can be confounded and the result would be misapplied effort.

My argument would be that Jim and Susie are missing the point and ignoring how they should interact with another. Avoiding negative expressions to one's partner is an entirely different skill than active listening, empathizing, we-ness, romance and committed behavior. In fact, Jim and Susie could be too focused avoiding the negatives, being hyper-vigilant to their presence. This might be symbolized by making too many complaints.

My argument would be what the heck is a couple trying to work on their marriage doing reading a book about predicting divorces. They are presumably unhappy in their marriage {no other reason to read a monotonous Gottman book}, so they are certainly likely to identify examples of all of Gottman's "signs" and feel hopeless. I've only read portions of the book myself, but from what I've seen it's more about Gottman glorifying and justifying his models than actually helping a couple overcome such labels. He does train counselors to help couples with affairs, but I find his notions that we should leave our judgment of such abhorrent behavior at the door a bit disingenuous considering his background as an adulterer himself.

My advice would be that if the 6 signs symbolize one's relationship, then the next step would be to learn positive placeholders. If they just eliminate some or all of the 6 signs, then there is still a vacuum left. It is more efficacious to replace the maladaptive behaviors with ...... adaptive and healthy ones. So let's call the predictive model a fire alarm, not necessarily the fire.

Sounds a little like the Dr. Harley's lovebank/lovebusters behavior modification therapy model??? THE LOVE BANK



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post #323 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 01:12 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

@Quality,

There are other researchers that make predictions about the future path of a couple. One study did so by evaluating "how" the couple dated. For the life of me I cannot recall the authors or title. In regards to Gottman's self-gratifying book...... it goes on and on and on about "what to do". Because marital happiness is a main feature of the research I am performing, I, invariably, must evaluate Gottman's other research, namely in his analyses of what constitutes "stable" and "happy" couples. He identified one "stable" type of marriage that was inclusive, seemingly needing, of a bit of volatility.

My second point is that I totally sympathize with the notion that one could read Gottman's book and feel hopeless. In fact, it is one of the biggest challenges that I, personally, face. I have no choice but to digest a massive amount of literature to expand my understanding and context. I always come across information that forces me to re-evaluate the past and present in a new light. Sometimes it hurts a great deal. I tend to think that many distressed spouses will read the aforementioned book and (via pareidolia) conclude that their relationship is in a lot worse shape than they had previously thought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quality
Sounds a little like the Dr. Harley's lovebank/lovebusters behavior modification therapy model??? THE LOVE BANK
Teaching couples new (more healthy) ways to interact is a staple across many therapeutic models. I can't comment too much on Dr. Harley. I disagree with a lot of his approach, especially as it relates to infidelity.
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post #324 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 01:51 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Catch up on the UAP
Introduction
Why They Cheat 1
Statistics
Why They Cheat 2
Why They Cheat 3
Forgiveness
Address a Disclosed Affair - Diblasio's Infidelity Intervention Model
What The Heck Were They Thinking
My Story 1
My Story 2
Teaching Fidelity
Teaching Fidelity 2
Teaching Fidelity 3
Interactive "What is Infidelity" Lesson
Interactive "Affair-Proofing" Lesson
What is Infidelity
Recovery Process: Social Factors

This post will begin to cover Gottman's 7 Principles for Making Marriage Work and Not "Just Friends". The former will be easy to address because it briefly touches on the subject. The latter is better thought of as an infidelity bible, covering everything conceivable, really.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottman, p. 50, 2014
Some people leave a marriage literally, by divorcing. Others do so by staying together but leading parallel lives. Whatever the route, there are four final stages that signal the death knell of a relationship.

1. The couple see their marital problems as severe.
2. Talking things over seems useless. Partners try to solve problems on their own.
3. The couple lead parallel lives.
4. Loneliness sets in.

When a couple get to the last stage, one or both partners may have an affair. But this betrayal is usually a symptom of a dying marriage, not the cause.
The end of that marriage could have been predicted long before either spouse strayed. Too often, couples begin to seek help for their marriage after they've already hit troubled waters. The warning signs were almost always there early on if they had known what to look for. You can see the seeds of trouble in (1) what partners actually say to each other (the prevalence of harsh start-up, the four horsemen, and the unwillingness to accept influence, (2) the failure of their repair attempts, (3) physiological reactions (flooding), or (4) pervasive negative thoughts about their marriage. Any of these signs suggests that, unless there is change in how the couple interact, emotional separation and, in most cases, divorce may only be a matter of time.
Again, we see the notion that infidelity is "symptomatic" of a lacking relationship. This notion is challenged by some researchers and clinicians, sometimes calling it naive. Invariably, my position has to stand with the consensus of all of the evidence. Is it really naive? Yes and no. The reason why depends upon how the "it's symptomatic" notion was concluded by the individual researcher. Some make that argument based upon the unfaithful partner's post-hoc reasoning. Some data suggest that unhappy relationships are extremely predictive of unfaithful behavior. The caution I urge is that much more data has to be collectively analyzed before that becomes a confirmed conclusion. The author of the second book to be covered has a somewhat dissenting argument than that of Gottman's.

I did not own Dr. Shirley Glass' book until recently, but I am very familiar with her and Dr. Wright's research. They are heavyweights in the field of infidelity research, mainly, due to their 1985 and 1992 publications. So as not to do a disservice to the book and their research, in general, it is probably best that I unpack it in at least two posts. So, let's continue with at least the following:

1. "Good people in good marriages are having affairs.(Glass, p.1, 2003)

This is literally the first sentence in the book and we need to look at Dr. Glass' explanation.

2. What do we do about #1.

3. An exploration into Dr. Glass' research.


to be continued
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post #325 of 325 (permalink) Old 04-14-2017, 03:12 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottman
When a couple get to the last stage, one or both partners may have an affair. But this betrayal is usually a symptom of a dying marriage, not the cause.
As you perform this meta-analysis, you might begin to see why it's important to know the marital and infidelity history of the researcher. This "conclusion" Gottman makes is completely self-rationalization and self-justifying his two divorces. His betrayal was just a symptom of an already dead marriage and his infidelity was a predictable and natural result of that {supposed} fact. It couldn't be that the fourth most highly rated family and marital therapist of the last century failed fixing his two previous marriages. They were simply unfixable {especially how intolerant such wives were of him constantly flirting and likely having sex relationships with his female graduate assistants in their "Love Lab"}.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottman
The end of that marriage could have been predicted long before either spouse strayed.
Still, nearly impossible to predict absent making the prediction AFTER one of the spouses hires an attorney. Hopefully you've helped enough couples yourself to know that it's entirely impossible to write off a couple seeking your help, even though you are so sure it's utterly pointless in that situation, only to see the couple turn it around thereafter. Conversely, couples I see as relatively easy fixes end up eventually divorced.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Gottman
Too often, couples begin to seek help for their marriage after they've already hit troubled waters. The warning signs were almost always there early on if they had known what to look for. You can see the seeds of trouble in (1) what partners actually say to each other (the prevalence of harsh start-up, the four horsemen, and the unwillingness to accept influence, (2) the failure of their repair attempts, (3) physiological reactions (flooding), or (4) pervasive negative thoughts about their marriage. Any of these signs suggests that, unless there is change in how the couple interact, emotional separation and, in most cases, divorce may only be a matter of time.
Again, almost every long term "successful" loving couple goes through a season or two of this. Some went about fixing it and others just stuck it out {marriage ethic} and didn't blow it up {cheating}. Every conflict doesn't have to be solved and most people in the real world don't want to endure marital therapy consisting of rehashing every historical dispute the couple ever had while practicing their active listening skills. Especially men {for the most part}. I'm so fortunate my wife is in total agreement with me on this and we can just have our own little party off on our own as we sit through some conference somewhere with yet another well-meaning counselor trying to get us all to comprehend and adopt the newest conflict resolution technique. To us {and we believe, the population of couples at large} all those mirroring, validation and active listening techniques are unscriptural garbage. The biggest reason I don't like them ~~ they feminize and subjugate men, making them LESS attractive to their spouse. Woman want to be cherished and have a husband they can trust with their respect who will lead their family. Hard to love a guy that has to beg his wife for his turn with the listening stick. {sorry, kind of off on a rant here ~ not saying you advocated such}.


I wish I could say everything in one word. I hate all the things that can happen between the beginning of a sentence and the end. ~ Leonard Cohen
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