RT's Ultimate Affair Plan - Page 3 - Talk About Marriage
Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #31 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 09:58 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Pretty much sums up the reason your posts about infidelity are meaningless. You've never had to ACTUALLY choose whereas I and many other knowledgeable and experienced posters have.

When it's really happening to you and not some exercise of the imagination or "Sophie's Choice" it's not so "meaningless" and there's a big difference between speculating, even with emphasized certainty, in advance, "I CHOOSE to not accept it in my life" to when the woman you love and married, committed your life to and have children with is actually putting you in the position to have to choose.

That's not to say you can't CHOOSE divorce. It would be your biblical right and some people lack the ability, personality and maybe empathy to ever forgive and continue the way God would prefer, if possible. The biblical out was given to us as an escape from relational pain. It's not a requirement and God was clear when He said he hated divorce.
"For I hate divorce!" says the LORD, the God of Israel. "To divorce your wife is to overwhelm her with cruelty," says the LORD of Heaven's Armies. "So guard your heart; do not be unfaithful to your wife." - Malachi 2:16 NLT
So you're saying that if someone refuses to stay with an adulterer, that they lack empathy?


Every now and then, you fall in love with the most unexpected person at the most unexpected time. - unknown

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post #32 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 10:04 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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About forgiveness. Its so important for our own well being, BUT it doesnt have to mean that you remain in the marriage. Its not the same as reconciliation. The adultery has serious consequences, and one of them may well be that you loose you marriage.
This, I agree.

I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.

Every now and then, you fall in love with the most unexpected person at the most unexpected time. - unknown

I'm newly married
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post #33 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 10:12 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I will answer you, neither.
There is a third option, be single.
I would rather be single than live with a man who treats me badly OR who cheats. For me cheating is a complete no no. The trust is gone and so has the intimacy. I have seen so many peoples/children's lives ruined by it.
Agree, and kids also pick up if their parents are doormats for the other, that is how marriage should look. Marriage takes two, not one person carrying the entire thing, while the other sleeps with others. That's not a marriage. If only one person is doing all the ''heavy lifting,'' and the other is sort of coasting along, that's not a marriage. I'm not married (getting married this year), but my parents have served as pretty great role models, and it was always a two way street.

Divorce wouldn't be easy, but staying with a spouse who chose to lie about what they were doing when not with you, sleeping with someone else, while you keep the marriage going...that would be easier than accepting to stay with someone that reckless. Imagine if you get a STD because your spouse was sleeping with others? No thanks...I think people can make mistakes, but having a full blown affair and chronic lying aren't mistakes. They are character flaws, and all too often, the person gets caught, and comes running back to their marriage because they fear losing their marriage. They wanted to keep having the affair, but didn't want to lose their nice lifestyle, and all that. Again, divorce is hard and not ideal, but what are you gaining by staying with someone who treats you like this? I'm a Christian, but I don't believe God would be angry over people leaving abusive relationships. This kind of treatment is emotionally abusive, to me.

Every now and then, you fall in love with the most unexpected person at the most unexpected time. - unknown

I'm newly married
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post #34 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 10:43 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Yet, my experience indicates the exact opposite, by leaps and bounds. Our marriage sucked prior to the affair but through my wife's repentance and my mercy and forgiveness, God blessed us both with a much more meaningful, loving and purposeful marriage. To be clear, it was because of the affair, but of God.




That's kind of my point, it's not the same, it's better. Blind trust and naivete might be lost but it was never real to begin with. We're all capable of committing grave sins against our fellow man. Some struggle with sexual immorality while others struggle with other demons and sins. I've yet to meet a couple that didn't have any struggles. I've accepted our character and our destiny. I/we can't change the past so onward we go ~~ simply doing and being better.


“To live, to err, to fall, to triumph, to recreate life out of life. A wild angel appeared to him, the angel of mortal youth and beauty, an envoy from the fair courts of life, to throw open before him in an instant of ecstasy the gates of all the ways of error and glory. On and on and on and on!”

- James Joyce, A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man
To expect our spouse to be faithful is not 'blind trust' or 'naivety'.Its what marriage is all about, trust, faithfulness, keeping the vows made. Thats why I married a man with very strong moral values and integrity, one who never cheated despite his long unhappy first marriage. I know a lovely lady who took her life due to deep depression caused by her husbands very long affair, its one of the worst things you can do to someone.There is no excuse.

I have a good marriage. I know that after an affair, all that is important to me about that marriage would be lost. That's why Gods punishment for adultery was so dire, He knows what it does to us. He knows the seriousness. That's why he allows divorce for adultery.

Yes we all have weaknesses, but adultery is a not just a weakness, its a very serious sin, one that often destroys people and marriages. You are still married, that's your choice, many people cant stay and that's right for them.
In a marriage after adultery, something so important has been lost and you can never get that back again. Complete trust and intimacy just between you has gone.
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post #35 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 10:51 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Agree, and kids also pick up if their parents are doormats for the other, that is how marriage should look. Marriage takes two, not one person carrying the entire thing, while the other sleeps with others. That's not a marriage. If only one person is doing all the ''heavy lifting,'' and the other is sort of coasting along, that's not a marriage. I'm not married (getting married this year), but my parents have served as pretty great role models, and it was always a two way street.

Divorce wouldn't be easy, but staying with a spouse who chose to lie about what they were doing when not with you, sleeping with someone else, while you keep the marriage going...that would be easier than accepting to stay with someone that reckless. Imagine if you get a STD because your spouse was sleeping with others? No thanks...I think people can make mistakes, but having a full blown affair and chronic lying aren't mistakes. They are character flaws, and all too often, the person gets caught, and comes running back to their marriage because they fear losing their marriage. They wanted to keep having the affair, but didn't want to lose their nice lifestyle, and all that. Again, divorce is hard and not ideal, but what are you gaining by staying with someone who treats you like this? I'm a Christian, but I don't believe God would be angry over people leaving abusive relationships. This kind of treatment is emotionally abusive, to me.

You are a wise young lady and congratulations on your forthcoming marriage. I think you are right that someone who cheats has a character flaw. If they have done it once they can do it again, and often do, especially if they have been no consequences to their cheating.
No divorce isn't easy at all, but that is a consequence of such a deep and serious betrayal.
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post #36 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 10:57 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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This, I agree.

I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.
Yes, its pointless unless the one who cheats takes full responsibility for what they did, and is prepared to do everything that can to try and restore the trust. If they have sex again with another person, then its probably pointless.
Maybe more people could stay if the affair was a one off thing, but many affairs last for weeks, months or years, with deception and lying all that time. If a cheater can do that, then to me they are capable of anything, and should never be trusted or believed again.
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post #37 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 11:00 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

You choose to marry and you choose to cheat.

As I get older, I think the idea that 'monogamy is a myth' is a cop-out. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying it is an excuse.

Beyond the obvious reasons it is an excuse: there's also the whole fact that people generally don't marry the first five or six people they've dated and had sex with. Serial monogamy, if you will. That situation still fulfills the desire of humans to bang everything, and allows them to be monogamous with one person.
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post #38 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 11:42 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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You choose to marry and you choose to cheat.

As I get older, I think the idea that 'monogamy is a myth' is a cop-out. I'm not saying it isn't true, I'm just saying it is an excuse.

Beyond the obvious reasons it is an excuse: there's also the whole fact that people generally don't marry the first five or six people they've dated and had sex with. Serial monogamy, if you will. That situation still fulfills the desire of humans to bang everything, and allows them to be monogamous with one person.
Yes I hear that idea that men especially are 'wired to have sex with as many women as possible' and that also is an excuse.
The idea that you have to 'sow your wild oats' before you marry is wrong as well. There are many men who don't do that who are happily married.
I believe that we are made to be in a family unit, made to be faithful and exclusive.
As you say, its a decision to cheat, especially if the affair is longer. Each time you have sex with that person you are making that decision again and putting your selfish lusts before your spouse and children.
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post #39 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 11:51 AM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.

But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).

Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.
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post #40 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 12:28 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by *Deidre* View Post
This, I agree.

I also understand that it's a very hard decision to stay or leave, but if you do stay, the WS really REALLY needs to be remorseful and willing to make serious changes. I read threads on here where people rush to take back and stay in marriages where cheating has occurred, and the wayward spouse just isn't putting in the effort.
I think you could substitute BS for WS, and it could be just as true.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #41 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 12:38 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Amen to that.

So - I met Cindy (not her real name) through work.

She was in her early 40's, married 10+ years and the main breadwinner (it was a 65% - 35% split on income). Her H committed financial infidelity and totally erased their net worth. He took them from 600K to zero.

And just to be clear - Cindy had created half their net worth through hard work and savings, and she had inherited the other half. So her H erased capital he didn't create.

This is what she said to me: Sure I could divorce him BUT:
1. He is a great dad, always has been
2. That will only increase our costs and decerease our ability to save as he will need to rent a place to live

Adding: If he had cheated on me in the usual way, sure I would be angry and hurt, but I would get over that. There is no recovery from this. He has permanently fvcked us.

------------





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I think you could substitute BS for WS, and it could be just as true.
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post #42 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 12:41 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Amen to that.

So - I met Cindy (not her real name) through work.

She was in her early 40's, married 10+ years and the main breadwinner (it was a 65% - 35% split on income). Her H committed financial infidelity and totally erased their net worth. He took them from 600K to zero.

And just to be clear - Cindy had created half their net worth through hard work and savings, and she had inherited the other half. So her H erased capital he didn't create.

This is what she said to me: Sure I could divorce him BUT:
1. He is a great dad, always has been
2. That will only increase our costs and decerease our ability to save as he will need to rent a place to live

Adding: If he had cheated on me in the usual way, sure I would be angry and hurt, but I would get over that. There is no recovery from this. He has permanently fvcked us.

------------
Yep. Lots of ways to betray a partner. Not just the one way TAM folks seem fixated on.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #43 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 12:48 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

JLD,

Yes. That is exactly what bothers me about this. It sort of goes like this:
- Sexual infidelity
- Physical violence
- Addiction to (gambling, drugs, alcohol, ...) that disrupts day to day life

Those are valid reasons for divorce. Maybe even seen as righteous reasons for divorce - meaning that staying with such a person is 'wrong/bad'.

I personally see it differently. I far prefer a terrific partner who may on occasion err, than a mediocre partner who avoids any 'major' sins. But that's just my preference.

And - I am fully aware that the opposing view is a terrific partner who doesn't err.



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Yep. Lots of ways to betray a partner. Not just the one way TAM folks seem fixated on.
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post #44 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 12:54 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Thing is, you marry a single human, not a bell curve.

The statistics say:
- In general men are less forgiving of an affair
- And are more likely to cheat

Me personally - I'm wired pretty well for monogamy. And forgiveness. M2 would never forgive an affair. She might stay with me, but she'd never really forgive me.




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Originally Posted by toblerone View Post
Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.

But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).

Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.
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post #45 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-27-2017, 12:54 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by toblerone View Post
Well the whole concept of men wanting to rail as many chicks as possible checks out at face value. It is so easy to assume this is the case: it is treated as some sort of biotruth.

But it really doesn't matter. Humans do a hell of a lot of things to deal with society that suppresses whatever caveman yearnings they have. Not having sex with the neighbor's wife is one of them (a good example if you want to tie it into religion).

Specific things, like sowing your wild oats, don't help matters: I think that encourages the person to treat sex as something they can do whenever. It doesn't reinforce monogamy at all. That's why I shied away from the term sowing oats and used serial monogamy.
yes and I read recently that man who has many partners before marriage is more likely to cheat.
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