RT's Ultimate Affair Plan - Page 7 - Talk About Marriage
Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #91 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 03:29 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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How convenient.
So you dont think that people should be forgiven for past sins/mistakes if they are truly sorry?

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post #92 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 05:20 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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So you dont think that people should be forgiven for past sins/mistakes if they are truly sorry?
Well I was just thinking of how we come to pick and choose what portions of the bible's word we want to apply within our lives.

But yes, anyone should be forgiven if they truly repent.
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post #93 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 10:30 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Well I was just thinking of how we come to pick and choose what portions of the bible's word we want to apply within our lives.

But yes, anyone should be forgiven if they truly repent.
I dont know many christians who pick and choose though.
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post #94 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-30-2017, 11:12 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I dont know many christians who pick and choose though.
None of us do. We're pretty secretive about it most of the time, that's why.
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post #95 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 12:42 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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So you dont think that people should be forgiven for past sins/mistakes if they are truly sorry?
This is the kind of question where the phrase "should be" doesn't work because it implies that IF they are truly sorry they SHOULD be forgiven. A better (IMO) opinion way to frame the question is whether a person who is truly sorry/repents for past sins/mistakes DESERVE to be forgiven. I won't pick on your inclusion of the word "mistake" as it applies to infidelity as that's a different discussion. So it gets down to whether they "deserve" forgiveness and the cold, hard fact is that "deserve" has nothing to do with it.

Some guys can forgive infidelity and others cannot. For those who can't it's not a question of whether his wife is truly remorseful & doing everything to repair the marriage - it's that he will not and/or can not forgive her. Sexual infidelity is something that many men simply will never heal from and thus never forgive. They don't always divorce but they never heal. They forever have this painful memory and awful images of her in bed with OM and the feeling of resentment toward her is inevitable. These men have decided that settling for their WW is better - for them - than divorcing her and there are many, many reasons for it. 99% of those reasons are rooted in simple fear of the unknown and clinical codependence and a small number are what most people would judge to be valid. The bottom line is that it is not up to the betrayer whether they are forgiven or not - it's the betrayed who decides for themselves. When a man knows he will never forgive the best path - for both of them - is divorce.
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post #96 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 02:07 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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This is the kind of question where the phrase "should be" doesn't work because it implies that IF they are truly sorry they SHOULD be forgiven. A better (IMO) opinion way to frame the question is whether a person who is truly sorry/repents for past sins/mistakes DESERVE to be forgiven. I won't pick on your inclusion of the word "mistake" as it applies to infidelity as that's a different discussion. So it gets down to whether they "deserve" forgiveness and the cold, hard fact is that "deserve" has nothing to do with it.

Some guys can forgive infidelity and others cannot. For those who can't it's not a question of whether his wife is truly remorseful & doing everything to repair the marriage - it's that he will not and/or can not forgive her. Sexual infidelity is something that many men simply will never heal from and thus never forgive. They don't always divorce but they never heal. They forever have this painful memory and awful images of her in bed with OM and the feeling of resentment toward her is inevitable. These men have decided that settling for their WW is better - for them - than divorcing her and there are many, many reasons for it. 99% of those reasons are rooted in simple fear of the unknown and clinical codependence and a small number are what most people would judge to be valid. The bottom line is that it is not up to the betrayer whether they are forgiven or not - it's the betrayed who decides for themselves. When a man knows he will never forgive the best path - for both of them - is divorce.
Both my husband and I were badly hurt and betrayed by our former spouses, and I agree, they dont 'deserve' forgiveness. The reason I have learnt that we need to forgive, is that unforgiveness and bitterness is so damaging to our well being and physical and mental health.We need to do it for ourselves.

People also seem to forget that if we forgive, that doesn't mean we must remain in the marriage. I can fully understand why having sex again would be a massive issue for many, trusting again as well. Imagining them with someone else would be so painful. That's why many will leave despite the fears and challenges that come with a marriage ending.

I don't know how they can trust again, I doubt I could, so if I did stay, it would be more as house mates rather than a married couple, and is there much point in that?
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post #97 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 09:48 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Today's addition to the UAP will discuss some statistics related to infidelity (B).

To catch up, here is the list of my posts, thus far.
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan
RT's Ultimate Affair Plan


(B) Statistics.

50-65% are in therapy due to infidelity (1)

20-40% of couples experienced infidelity (3)

25% of couples therapy is initiated by an affair, with 30% more being revealed in therapy (4).

15% of couples incorporate swinging into their relationships (2)

78% of men denied ever sexually cheating (3)

88% of women denied ever sexually cheating (3)

90% of those that did have an affair justified it due to unhappiness (4). This speaks to permissive attitudes and not specifically causation. They also found that women were twice as likely to cheat due to marital dissatisfaction, meaning that they are more predictable than men are.

Men that cheated tended to be older, used more "substances" and were sexually dissatisfied in the primary relationship (5).

Disclosing the affair resulted in 57% of relationships surviving, in the context of college dating relationships (6). Hearing about it or discovering it for themselves creates more damage.

Attitudes and their relation to infidelity (7) (Strong/Weak/ or no correlation(prediction):

-Permissive attitude to extramarital sex (strong correlation to actual affairs)
-Extra-marital activity permissiveness, such as hanging out with individuals of opposite sex in somewhat of an emotional/inappropriate context(strong)
-Intention to cheat (Strong)
-Jealousy, those that cheated reported less jealousy regarding possibilities from their partner/flirtation(Weak)
-Sex to please one's partner, versus to please themselves (predicted Fidelity)

How were affairs revealed (7):
-38% in person
-38% or over the phone
-12% other/3rd party
-6% email
-6% text


1 Atkins, Baucom & Jacobson, (2001). Understanding infidelity: correlates in a national random sample.
2: Mcginley R. (1995). History of Swinging
3: Blow, A. & Hartnett, K. (2005). Infidelity in committed relationships II: A substantive review.
4: Glass, S. & Wright, T.L. (1992) Justifications for extramarital involvement: The association between attitudes, behaviors, and gender.
5: Atkins, D.C. (2003. Infidelity and marital therapy: Initial findings from a randomized clinical trial.
6: Afifi, et. al (2001). Identity concerns following a severe relational transgression: The role of discovery method for the relational outcomes of infidelity.
7: Walters, A., & Burger, B. (2013). 'I Love You, and I Cheated': Investigating Disclosures of Infidelity to Primary Romantic Partners. Sexuality & Culture

Last edited by Relationship Teacher; 01-31-2017 at 09:52 PM.
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post #98 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 11:11 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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First of all ~~~ this is a substantially inadequate bio. I visited your meandering musings from the safe distance of a vpn just a couple days ago and have a couple questions.



1. On your blog you've claimed expertise and listed yourself as some kind of "certified coach" ~ who were you "certified" by and what was the actual training you had to undertake to become "certified"?



2. Do you have any other qualifications? A college degree of any sort?



3. Are you doing this out of your house and do you have another real job?



4.. Did you just get married in the last year?



5.. Have you ever experienced marital infidelity or did your girlfriend cheat on you?



6. Are you somewhere on the Autistic Spectrum {I watched one of your youtube videos and you looked super young, naive and either autistic or demon possessed - HERE }



I apologize if you are actually some kind of new age but otherwise legitimate professionally degreed and fully state licensed experienced relationship counselor. I don't know you but just a quick review of your website led me to conclude you have no idea what you are talking about, that you have no professional and little personal experience with marriage and marital infidelity and that you are puffing your credentials and experience up and your visits/posts here and many other places on the web are simply a way to attempt to drive traffic/monetize your little website advice hobby probably inspired after a thorough reading of some demon like Tolle.



Second, the scientific method is very difficult to utilize in this field. It would be unethical and immoral to actually have a true control group of desperate betrayed spouses that were offered and given no relationship advice whatsoever. It's one of the reasons this area of counseling/coaching/mentoring is so wide open to scamsters because anyone can claim success and ~ {cough}, expertise. Gottman has done some interesting research and actually did some kind of study concluding that variations of behavioral therapy showed beneficial outcome correlations while "Imago" type therapy did not. He concluded "active listening" is disastrous to mending troubled marriages. But I find much of Gottman's research self-serving and as a wayward husband that married his affair partner, he lacks credibility. I detest supposed relationship experts like him {Gottman} and Dr. Glover who cheat upon and divorce their first wives then write and sell books about SAVING marriages after having destroyed theirs. Can you imagine the eye rolling their ex-betrayed spouses must be doing and the pain they are enduring every time they hear or read about their ex's supposed relationship expertise?



I look forward to our dialogue and apologize for my disparaging remarks but, IMO, there are real hurting betrayed spouses coming to forums like this that need real help from real experts and/or real persons that have experienced and survived {recovered or divorced} from the same pains and experiences that they are enduring. I hope it's not too much to ask that you provide a more extensive bio especially as you write and hold yourself out as an "expert" with lots of "clinical" knowledge and experience.


I second all of this except the apologies. You are not a psychiatrist don't act like one. Don't dupe people into thinking you have the ability to help. You are using statistics to normalize unacceptable behavior. Makes me sick.


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post #99 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 11:27 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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15% of couples incorporate swinging into their relationships (2)
2: Mcginley R. (1995). History of Swinging
15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.

McGinley is so biased. He's a failed engineer that lost his government clearance in the 1970's after "swinging' with some military wives. He's founder and president of the North American Swing Club Association, sort of a AAA for wife-swappers. He organizes the annual Lifestyles convention, now in its 28th year. He owns the successful Lifestyles Tours & Travel agency. And he runs one of the country's oldest sex clubs, Club WideWorld of Buena Park, Calif., which opened its doors, appropriately enough, in 1969.

So he proceeds to get what appears to be a mail order Ph.D. in Psychology at the unaccredited ONLINE Newport International University (that was owned by some guy in Hong Kong in the 1990's and early 2000's and even Kenya in 2005 declared the degrees obtained from the University are invalid - and then Robert writes a delusional book self serving book rationalizing and justifying his incredible immoral life and wayward mindset. I have no idea what the actual percentage is but knowing what I know about Mr. McGinley, it's safe to assume it's far less than 15%.
Our investigation shows that Newport University (aka Janus University) is not and never was an accredited institution in the US. Therefore their degrees are worthless. The latest developments and their European location do not change that. LINK
RT,

Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan". It could be an interesting conversation and there's probably much you can learn from many of the people here that have actually been married a long time and actually experienced infidelity. We might be able to really help you develop something that would truly be "The Ultimate Plan" instead of that nonsense you have posted on your website.

I wish I could say everything in one word. I hate all the things that can happen between the beginning of a sentence and the end. ~ Leonard Cohen
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post #100 of 326 (permalink) Old 01-31-2017, 11:31 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I second all of this except the apologies. You are not a psychiatrist don't act like one. Don't dupe people into thinking you have the ability to help. You are using statistics to normalize unacceptable behavior. Makes me sick.


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Nobody is going there or utilizing any of his stuff. His youtube videos had only a handful of viewers.

It's why I asked him if he is on the autistic spectrum because he doesn't seem to relate well conversationally here at all and his odd {but shallow} obsession with this subject as a single dad who just married his baby momma seems odd {not that I'm an expert on autism at all}.


I wish I could say everything in one word. I hate all the things that can happen between the beginning of a sentence and the end. ~ Leonard Cohen
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post #101 of 326 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 03:58 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.

McGinley is so biased.
It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.

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RT,

Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan".
I told everyone that they need to make POSITIVE claims if they wish to dispute what I have said. Everything I have said, thus far, is straight out of a clinician's guide to couples therapy for infidelity.

I am a relationship coach as stated in the opening post and as you can see in my signature. Be a good citizen scientist and address what was said. Ad hominem attacks will surely be ignored. Because you have said nothing, I can do nothing to affirm or counter your world view.
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post #102 of 326 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 04:25 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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15% ~~~ SUUUURRRRREEEEE.

McGinley is so biased. He's a failed engineer that lost his government clearance in the 1970's after "swinging' with some military wives. He's founder and president of the North American Swing Club Association, sort of a AAA for wife-swappers. He organizes the annual Lifestyles convention, now in its 28th year. He owns the successful Lifestyles Tours & Travel agency. And he runs one of the country's oldest sex clubs, Club WideWorld of Buena Park, Calif., which opened its doors, appropriately enough, in 1969.

So he proceeds to get what appears to be a mail order Ph.D. in Psychology at the unaccredited ONLINE Newport International University (that was owned by some guy in Hong Kong in the 1990's and early 2000's and even Kenya in 2005 declared the degrees obtained from the University are invalid - and then Robert writes a delusional book self serving book rationalizing and justifying his incredible immoral life and wayward mindset. I have no idea what the actual percentage is but knowing what I know about Mr. McGinley, it's safe to assume it's far less than 15%.
Our investigation shows that Newport University (aka Janus University) is not and never was an accredited institution in the US. Therefore their degrees are worthless. The latest developments and their European location do not change that. LINK
RT,

Again, do you have any real credentials whatsoever. You're quoting a mish-mash of authors and random statistics that mean very little while discussing a supposed "ultimate plan". It could be an interesting conversation and there's probably much you can learn from many of the people here that have actually been married a long time and actually experienced infidelity. We might be able to really help you develop something that would truly be "The Ultimate Plan" instead of that nonsense you have posted on your website.
I agree with this, I have never met or heard of a single married couple who do this. The 15% figure is clearly grossly exaggerated.He is clearly trying to persuade people that it must be ok, because SO many do it. No its not, its horrible and disgusting behaviour. A man who did this would repel me. Ugh.

No one will ever convince me that an affair is EVER justified. Its not. No matter what happened to my husband I would not cheat. Trying to justify it makes it even worse. Just because someone else acts badly, or isn't the perfect spouse, or even cheats on US, we should be different and act with decency and integrity.
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post #103 of 326 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 04:58 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I think you could substitute BS for WS, and it could be just as true.
Wow. What a horrible thing to say You really haven't learned anything here, have you?

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It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.

I told everyone that they need to make POSITIVE claims if they wish to dispute what I have said. Everything I have said, thus far, is straight out of a clinician's guide to couples therapy for infidelity.

I am a relationship coach as stated in the opening post and as you can see in my signature. Be a good citizen scientist and address what was said. Ad hominem attacks will surely be ignored. Because you have said nothing, I can do nothing to affirm or counter your world view.
Way to not answer anyone's questions. I've challenged you before and all you ever come up with are platitudes or deflections. If you're going to post crap about infidelity, we have every right to ask what exactly makes you an expert. So far I don't see anything that does.

THIS is pure and utter crap right here
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In working with infidelity, one must look it as a symptom of the underlying relational dysfunction (2), that is, that disconnection, marital dissatisfaction and unmet relational needs are the reasons individuals fall prey to committing adulterous (extra-dyadic) behavior
Bullpucky. You can't blame the cheating on the state of the marriage or whatever 'dysfunctions' it has. Find me a perfect marriage that DOESN'T HAVE any kind of dysfunction whatsoever. It doesn't exist. Many many people have marriages that totally suck and they never cheat. Unless you're willing to separate the marriage and the cheating, you'll never have a true understanding of the many many reasons people cheat. Using the state of the marriage as the reason is nothing more than a cop out.

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Let me finish today's addition by discussing boundaries, which will imply joint-responsibility for the "underlying relational dysfunction". ......Too few boundaries leave potentially dangerous behavior to be viable. Too many boundaries might sabotage the relational connection, literally creating the basis for the desire to seek connection..... elsewhere.
How do boundaries imply joint responsibility?? If anything they imply the opposite. If I don't enforce my boundaries that's my fault, but to say that creates ANYthing in my partner, including the 'desire to seek connection' is rubbish. My boundaries are for ME, not for him. He needs to have his own boundaries, and if they don't include methods of keeping himself in his pants that's all on him.


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I don't blame the injured partner for the actions of their partner
Yes you do, and if you actually counsel couples after infidelity I pity rhe BS's because you're doing more harm than good. WAY more harm than good.

People don't get a free pass to cheat just because their marriage sucks.

Our R
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post #104 of 326 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

1. In every infidelity text I have ever read, the therapist (author) always calls "Infidelity" a symptom of the relational dysfunction. Individuals are unhappy and seek connection elsewhere. This is the reality.

2. We know "why" individuals cheat......because they say why. Understanding their reasons/excuses does NOT remove any responsibility from their shoulders.

3. We live in a world that is not inherently out to get us, nor is the world there to support us. Lack of boundaries = more affairs. The relationship is a form of property that we must nurture and defend from outside forces. Humans are not always rational, meaning that we have to act in accordance.

4. Explanations and facts do not impose any blame. Individuals that cheat have the same amount of blame on their shoulders, even if their partner did not nurture the relationship. This means that the betrayed owns RESPONSIBILITY for their part of the disconnection, NOT the affair.

5. The betrayed ALWAYS has work to do after an affair (on themselves).

6. The injuring partner tends to have much more work to do.

I have 100% confidence that if you read a book on infidelity, you would be presented this same information. Grab Dr. Marie Cheour's book on infidelity that I referenced earlier on.

7. I only have this perspective on infidelity due to being betrayed several times when I was in my 20's.

If you disagree with my posts, then please post what IS correct and provide sources.
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post #105 of 326 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 06:29 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.

I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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