RT's Ultimate Affair Plan - Page 8 - Talk About Marriage
Coping with Infidelity Relationship recovery from the destructiveness of infidelity.

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post #106 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 06:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.

I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.
Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".

I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly

Thanks, FSJ.



p.s. I was politely asked to expound upon my bio. See the introductory post.


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post #107 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 08:18 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

So I checked your webpage and looked into your certification. It requires no prerequisites in any sort of education. The certification can be obtained in 8 weeks versus years. You charge $100 for a phone session. Wow.
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post #108 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 08:49 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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I think the major disconnect, RT, is that some would opine infidelity is not a sign of relationship dysfunction because many choose not to cheat in the face of a lousy relationship.

I tend to agree, in my limited, anecdotal experience. I see it as a personal dysfunction for this reason.
Word.

Is it possible that the relationship in question is significantly less than perfect?

It's more than possible -- it's damn near a mathematical certainty.

Still, infidelity requires nothing more than a partner lacking in -- or devoid of -- integrity.

That element will always be there.

Virginia: "Why can't you kids leave well enough alone? Everything was fine until you started digging around."

Burt: "You sound like a Scooby Doo villain."
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post #109 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 09:11 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by Relationship Teacher View Post
Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".

I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly

Thanks, FSJ.



p.s. I was politely asked to expound upon my bio. See the introductory post.
How does one identify as "having it within them to cheat"?

That is a rather difficult control group to substantiate.

As to "character and the relationship", I agree that they will both need to be addressed. Where I think we will dispute is not only why each must be addressed, but also in what order they must be addressed, as well as how.

"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #110 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:22 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
How does one identify as "having it within them to cheat"?

That is a rather difficult control group to substantiate.

As to "character and the relationship", I agree that they will both need to be addressed. Where I think we will dispute is not only why each must be addressed, but also in what order they must be addressed, as well as how.
Your questions are fantastic and will be addressed, but do give me time. What I can say, at this time, is that one must consider themselves in different situations. Consider what I would do in various circumstances related to infidelity. I can extol my clean history of having never cheated, but perhaps I had it in me to cheat, but was never in those circumstances. Lets think about the aftermath of what I experienced. What if I, instead, disclosed my personal trauma to female coworkers/superiors and they used that opportunity to develop a connection with me. The ultimate point is that we are emotional creatures, specifically designed (or evolved) to be receptive to connection. I don't think there is an absolute way to eliminate the receptivity, but we CAN use and enforce emotionally intelligent boundaries. Ultimately, this is a deeply theoretical question, requiring a bio/psycho/social approach.


As far as what must be addressed (what,how and order), those are a primary theme to this thread. Those will be explained soon. Next up is more information on "why" individuals cheat, followed by "forgiveness".
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post #111 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:26 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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It is one statistic that you may do with as you please. You have the source.



I told everyone that they need to make POSITIVE claims if they wish to dispute what I have said. Everything I have said, thus far, is straight out of a clinician's guide to couples therapy for infidelity.

I am a relationship coach as stated in the opening post and as you can see in my signature. Be a good citizen scientist and address what was said. Ad hominem attacks will surely be ignored. Because you have said nothing, I can do nothing to affirm or counter your world view.
You need to understand, this is not the place to offer an opinion without expecting attack, nor is this a place to offer sources without a fair share of attempts to discredit.

We are in a society that values learning from books over developing skillls from actual experience. You could have saved 1,000 relationships... but if you don't provide 1 paper certificate, you'll be an outcast.
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post #112 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:27 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Disconnection exposes a lot of character flaws. Think about it, many individuals have it in them to cheat, but are in good relationships (and good partners) and don't. Any relationship advice or plan must address "character" and "the relationship".

I am perfectly fine with individuals questioning that particular aspect, but one does have to realize that the best scholars we have on the topic support my presentation (symptomatic nature of infidelity). My next addition will address this explicitly

Thanks, FSJ.



p.s. I was politely asked to expound upon my bio. See the introductory post.
Many wont cheat because they have good moral values and self control. Because they made promises to be faithful. For better and for worse is another promise of faithfulness no matter what happens.
Those who refuse to do this no matter what have my utmost respect.
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post #113 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:39 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Word.

Is it possible that the relationship in question is significantly less than perfect?

It's more than possible -- it's damn near a mathematical certainty.

Still, infidelity requires nothing more than a partner lacking in -- or devoid of -- integrity.

That element will always be there.
Absolutely, lacking self control, integrity and good moral values. Affairs are completely and utterly selfish and self centered.
When you think that over half of married people never cheat, it shows that many still hold these values. Sadly many more don't.

Last edited by Diana7; 02-01-2017 at 10:58 PM.
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post #114 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 10:56 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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1. In every infidelity text I have ever read, the therapist (author) always calls "Infidelity" a symptom of the relational dysfunction. Individuals are unhappy and seek connection elsewhere. This is the reality.

2. We know "why" individuals cheat......because they say why. Understanding their reasons/excuses does NOT remove any responsibility from their shoulders.

3. We live in a world that is not inherently out to get us, nor is the world there to support us. Lack of boundaries = more affairs. The relationship is a form of property that we must nurture and defend from outside forces. Humans are not always rational, meaning that we have to act in accordance.

4. Explanations and facts do not impose any blame. Individuals that cheat have the same amount of blame on their shoulders, even if their partner did not nurture the relationship. This means that the betrayed owns RESPONSIBILITY for their part of the disconnection, NOT the affair.

5. The betrayed ALWAYS has work to do after an affair (on themselves).

6. The injuring partner tends to have much more work to do.

I have 100% confidence that if you read a book on infidelity, you would be presented this same information. Grab Dr. Marie Cheour's book on infidelity that I referenced earlier on.

7. I only have this perspective on infidelity due to being betrayed several times when I was in my 20's.

If you disagree with my posts, then please post what IS correct and provide sources.
I completely disagree that all cheated on spouses need to work on themselves. or that they bear any responsibility for the affair. I know several lovely people whose spouses cheated. Some of the cheaters even admitted that there was nothing wrong in their marriage that made them cheat. As one said 'The opportunity came up and I took it'

My husbands former wife found another man. I have been married to him for 12 years this year and he is the nicest man you could meet and a lovely husband.
Another lady I know (in my family) adored her husband so much and was a lovely caring wife. She ended up taking her own life after sinking into depression because of her husbands very long affair. Another member of my family had 2 wives who both cheated, one 4 times, he is the nicest most caring man you could meet.

Sorry but the fault is always with the cheater. Yes we can do a lot to make sure that the marriage is strong, and we ourselves can have good boundaries with the opposite sex, but in the end we cant stop the other spouse if their moral values and integrity are not there.Such people will cheat no matter how lovely their spouse is, and they will nearly always blame shift and try and justify what they have done.
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post #115 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 11:18 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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Absolutely, lacking self control, integrity and good moral values. Affairs are completely and utterly selfish and self centered.
When you think that over half of married people never cheat, it shows that many still hold these values. Sadly many more don't.
Self control, integrity, good moral values... all these things can absolutely be present, but all it takes is an individual who can manipulate thier presence.

You are correct in that affairs are utterly selfish and self centered. It makes it that much easier to change someone's path, promises, or whatever you may call it, even if just temporary.

A person who enters another person's life offering adventure and romance can't be resisted. It is the primary reason people fall in love and marry, as is it the primary reason people cheat.

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post #116 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-01-2017, 11:39 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

Diana,
Certainly this is an important theme. Perhaps it is best to summarize my discussions on this topic with M2.

First and foremost this is a topic I almost never raise. It is however a topic that M2 brings up periodically. When that happens she typically says some version of the following:
1. It's my (M2's) job to make sure you are happy in bed
2. And your job to speak up if you aren't
3. And - I will injure/kill you if you cheat on me

The sort of interesting thing about this is that M2 is a very high functioning person. She consistently demonstrates self control and discipline. And yet, on this topic I have never doubted her. She appears to be entirely sincere.

And while there is an element of dark humor in this type of conversation, the underlying intent is very real.

So forgive me for being sexist for a moment. This - model/dynamic - wouldn't even be close to acceptable in reverse. But it has never once troubled me in our near 30 years together. Not because I don't take M2 seriously, I do. Rather because in reverse it would feel absolutely wrong to me. If M2 broke her vows, I would not strike or harm her. I wouldn't even desire such an outcome.



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Well he never cheated on his ex who he was married to for 23 years, and wasn't very happy with, and he has never had sex outside marriage, so I know I have a good 'un.
I wasn't going to get married again unless I found a very special man.

We have had so many cheaters married to people in my family, and a few in the family, that I know I wouldn't put up with any of that stuff for myself.
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post #117 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 07:08 AM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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You need to understand, this is not the place to offer an opinion without expecting attack, nor is this a place to offer sources without a fair share of attempts to discredit.

We are in a society that values learning from books over developing skillls from actual experience. You could have saved 1,000 relationships... but if you don't provide 1 paper certificate, you'll be an outcast.
My certificate is posted on my website.

The information I present is the standard for therapy/counseling. Please check my sources. My main source will continue to be Peluso's.

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Many wont cheat because they have good moral values and self control. Because they made promises to be faithful. For better and for worse is another promise of faithfulness no matter what happens.
Those who refuse to do this no matter what have my utmost respect.
That's true.

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I completely disagree that all cheated on spouses need to work on themselves. or that they bear any responsibility for the affair. I know several lovely people whose spouses cheated. Some of the cheaters even admitted that there was nothing wrong in their marriage that made them cheat. As one said 'The opportunity came up and I took it'
We all have flaws, implying the need for work. Our responsibility is to nurture the connection.
Quote:

Sorry but the fault is always with the cheater.
You aren't disputing what I said.

The actions of the unfaithful are ONE HUNDRED PERCENT on their shoulders.
Quote:
Yes we can do a lot to make sure that the marriage is strong, and we ourselves can have good boundaries with the opposite sex, but in the end we cant stop the other spouse if their moral values and integrity are not there.
Yes, we can. Good marriages keep individuals from cheating.
Quote:
Such people will cheat no matter how lovely their spouse is, and they will nearly always blame shift and try and justify what they have done.
Some people will cheat, regardless of the quality of the relationship. This is the minority of cases.

The vast majority of cheating occurs in relationships that have dissatisfaction.

Last edited by Relationship Teacher; 02-02-2017 at 07:33 AM.
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post #118 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 01:34 PM
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

The first MC my husband and I went to totally separated the cheating from the marriage, so you're not correct when you say that all counselors have the same views as you do. And the fact that most do have the same views as you doesn't mean a thing, except that they are all wrong. If more counselors empowered BS's to take charge of things and not act like whipped little puppies who are scared to do anything for fear their spouse will do it again, I think more BS's would end up in a happy place and not stuck married to a serial cheater. And the first thing that needs to happen is that the WS takes 100% full and total responsibility for what they did. By saying that the state of the marriage contributed to them cheating, that doesn't happen. If a counselor thinks they must do their due diligence and address the state of the marriage as well, then it should be done at a later time. Not right at first. And it has to be separated from the cheating, as it's own entity. NO one is perfect, so of course every BS has work to do on themselves. But to say that contributed to them being cheated on is crap.

I don't care if you refuse to listen to me just because I refuse to spend inordinate amounts of time surfing the web just to come up with a bunch of links that support my view. Anyone can do that for any view they want to. I have better things to do thanks
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post #119 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 02:36 PM
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This post digs into probably the most talked about question on this forum: why do people cheat? Followed closely by the question: why do some people not divorce after infidelity? And I suspect that the answer to #1 directly relates to #2. I wish I knew the answers.

What I have learned in my adult life regarding cheating and reconciliation amongst my friends and family is this: it is much easier for a female who is dissatisfied and has decided to escape the bounds of marriage to find a willing male AP. Almost all of the WWs I know of always wore their weddings rings and freely admitted they were married. And most spoke favorably about their husbands - even while the A was ongoing.

The males who wanted to cheat were not nearly as successful. Most had to either hide their marital status or severely downplay their happiness. And the number of willing female partners were limited, especially if they already knew you were married.

And my own reason for not divorcing after infidelity occurred is situational to me. Ultimately my W would probably end up dead (for a multitude of reasons) if I divorced her and left her life permanently, and I just couldn't live with that guilt. She needs me for the positive influence, support, and stability even though her past track record was not good at times.

This is based solely on personal experience and personal interviews with about 40 adults, mostly military couples.

Last edited by MAJDEATH; 02-02-2017 at 03:01 PM.
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post #120 of 281 (permalink) Old 02-02-2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: RT's Ultimate Affair Plan

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The first MC my husband and I went to totally separated the cheating from the marriage, so you're not correct when you say that all counselors have the same views as you do.
The symptomatic nature of affairs is supported by the community of experts researching infidelity. I am presenting what has been proven to work, not what I think makes sense.

Counselors will have different views! They can disagree with what the research I have provided, but they must do so in a scientific manner. We will be looking at a lot of Dr. Baucom & Dr. Worthington's research as time progresses. The community references them a lot.

Quote:
And the fact that most do have the same views as you doesn't mean a thing, except that they are all wrong.
You are disputing the established research that is presented to the psychological community, based on what?

Quote:
If more counselors empowered BS's to take charge of things and not act like whipped little puppies who are scared to do anything for fear their spouse will do it again, I think more BS's would end up in a happy place and not stuck married to a serial cheater.
That is nothing I have ever seen be advised. Expert advice entails discovering what led to the affair so that the injuring/unfaithful partner corrects the character flaws that led to the series of actions.

"What made you go to lunch with your co-worker and complain about your husband? That is very risky behavior and violates the marital boundaries."

Quote:

And the first thing that needs to happen is that the WS takes 100% full and total responsibility for what they did.
Total agreement.

Quote:
By saying that the state of the marriage contributed to them cheating, that doesn't happen.
I understand why you say this. I will work to add additional context for this particular concern.



Quote:
If a counselor thinks they must do their due diligence and address the state of the marriage as well, then it should be done at a later time. Not right at first. And it has to be separated from the cheating, as it's own entity. NO one is perfect, so of course every BS has work to do on themselves. But to say that contributed to them being cheated on is crap.
My very next addition will address this concern. I can give a short answer now.

If I start to become disconnected in my relationship, then there can be the emotional impulse to seek connection elsewhere, or I may be receptive to the connection from a "predatory" female. I may be entirely unaware that I am susceptible to bonding with a female that shows interest in me (extra-dyadic). Being unaware, the connection to the predatory female may develop, meaning that a bond was formed, even if no clear intention existed before-hand. At this point it becomes rewarding (dopamine/feel-good hormones) to participate in the behavior. In this example, none of the blame is shouldered by the wife, not even the predatory female.

"But, why didn't you (in this example) just try to fix the primary (marital) relationship, then?"

Exactly!

"So, individuals are excused of cheating because they couldn't help it due to not being happy and seeking connection elsewhere?"

No. My relationship duties are to nurture the connection, enforce boundaries, but to also ensure that no bond is able to be formed with another woman. As sane boundaries are violated/unenforced, the risk for extra-marital behavior rises.

Quote:
I don't care if you refuse to listen to me just because I refuse to spend inordinate amounts of time surfing the web just to come up with a bunch of links that support my view. Anyone can do that for any view they want to. I have better things to do thanks
I am asking individuals to provide sources for the information they provide. I have provided information from books and peer-reviewed research.

I did not start at my conclusion and support it with random sources. This thread is born out of Peluso's guide to infidelity. I am entirely interested in what the therapists and counselors are trained to do. That said, not all get specific training in infidelity. There will be differences in opinion, but we are all well-advised to look at the research published in scientific journals.

Please do contribute, Hope.
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