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post #16 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 07:06 AM
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Your situation sounds almost identical to mine. My husband has been communicating via text, email, and whatsapp with the same woman (I think) for years and years. I, like you, swept it under the rug until my most recent discovery. I also like you, have no idea if it was physical or not. However, reading your story I can look objectively and say this of course was physical! Don't be stupid like I have been! Get out! It hurts too much to live like this!

Your wife sounds exactly like my husband. Maybe we should hook them up! Hahah. Bad joke. Anyway, get out. Get out. It won't ever go away.

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post #17 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 07:20 AM
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Cool Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

But for 15 years? And with those documented text messages?

Sorry, but that alone, IMHO, of its very own accord, definitely meets the "stench test," that something indeed is, and has been rotting away in Denmark, and for an inordinate amount of time!

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post #18 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 07:52 AM
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So you are falling into a familiar trap. You discuss your decisions with your wife. You don't tell her what you are going to do.

Heck, you should actively lie to her and tell her that you are not gonna intrude into OM"s life AND THEN CONTACT HIS WIFE.

OM has probably gotten a heads up already so he's gonna destroy evidence that you might want. Contact his wife immediately and do not announce it to your wife.

His wife may help you with discovery and good for you. She may confront him and he tells your wife and good for you cause you know they are in contact. She may confront him and your wife ignores his reaching out and good for you cause you know she's NC.

Cheating is dirty work. So investigating it is dirty work. Stop being so respectful and decide of you want the truth and want an honest life. Of you do, then get your hands dirty and do stuff behind the scenes. Blow up secrets.
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post #19 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 07:56 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Probably the most pragmatic thing he can do, for his own peace of mind is get her to take a poly. If she refuses, he's going to have to go with what he's got and make his decisions based on that. If it were me, I'd do the poly before contacting the other wife. (albeit one can argue that the other wife needs to know her husbands crush on another woman)

If you don't embody controversy, what you say will become just another part of the media driven culture of stifling thought and debate about issues.

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post #20 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 08:04 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

How is marriage counseling going to fix a character defect in your wife?

I wouldn't let it go this time, I'd separate and think about if staying married is a wise idea. But, she sounds like she is into this guy, too. Yea yea...I know, he's so much older and she feels obligated. She likes the attention he gives her, and doesn't care that he is married also? She is telling him things that are causing him to stay interested...if she was like, look I'm married, can't talk anymore, he wouldn't keep professing his love for her. Marriage counseling won't fix your wife's character problems...but, separation will clear your head and help you make a better decision as to if staying with her is wise. Sorry you're hurting.
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post #21 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 08:16 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Be very very clear with her....at this point she does not make the rules...they may or may not be empty threats from her...either way what it does demonstrate is that telling his wife forced your wife to say that she wanted to separate tells you how much she cares for him and not for your marriage.....i woudl have told her right there and then, pack your suitcase, and leave...your separating your divorcing and tell her that you are going to reach out to his wife and you are getting your last child DNA, and you are going to tell her parents and your family and you will do everything and anything you want.
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post #22 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 08:25 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

@cjadek, I am so sorry that your wife has hurt you like this. There are many here who understand your feelings all too well.

As to whether you can find a way back to a place where you could consider staying married, I'm afraid that only you can answer that question. Many have and many haven't. People who heal from the awful pain caused by their spouse's infidelity can do that from inside their marriage, or by simply letting their marriage go. Some of us have made the journey with our unfaithful partner's support. Some of us haven't had that, or haven't even wanted it. But you don't have to decide any of this now, and you should take as long as you need to decide.

Your emotional state
I went from being neutrally OK(ish), to feeling love for my husband and wanting my mariageto survive, to wanting to divorce my husband, several times a day when I was working things through in my head. Feeling like you are being irrational and oscillating between feelings of desperate love and then great sadness (and probably enormous anger and bitterness - if not now, then with time) is completely normal. You are trying to internally reconcile the person that you thought your wife was, with what she has done. You are trying to find a way forward. You are trying to understand all of the consequences of whatever decisions are available to you. You keep "forgetting" and normal life takes over for a little while and then you remember again. And then it starts all over again. Don't expect it to make sense, no part of this "makes sense". If you can afford it, I would recommend that you go for individual counselling (IC) as well. Remember that your MC's patient (if they are good) is your marriage, not you. You need someone who is completely on YOUR side, and is focused on helping you understand what you need and want. If you can't see a therapist by yourself, then do you have a good and wise friend or religious confidant that you can talk this through with?

PA or EA?
I'm going to get shouted down by many on TAM saying this, but I do believe that it is possible that your wife did not have a sexual PA (I'm not going to comment on hugging, kissing etc.). (Although, I don't personally see an EA as a far lesser betrayal.) My husband's morality was not the same as mine. In his mind, as long as he didn't have sex then what he was doing "wasn't so bad". It was wrong, but not an incredibly damaging betrayal (in his mind, NOT mine). When I found out about my husband's second betrayal, I asked him to have a polygraph but backed down once we started working through things. When I found evidence of things that he had "under-represented", he offered to take the polygraph himself. And he did. And it was humiliating for him and very painful. And I'm glad that it was both those things. Because by doing it, he proved some things to me. Firstly that he was (in all likelihood - polygraphs are not 100% guaranteed) telling the truth; and secondly that he was willing to do this to prove how committed he was to helping me recover my faith in our marriage and his commitment to it. He was ashamed. This was a good thing. (If you want some more info about my polygraph situation, please just ask.)

Disclosing to the OM's wife
Absolutely. (If you had done this when you first found out about what had happened, then it is very likely that the relationship would not have continued. Your wife may very well have just found another place to get her emotional high, but she may not have. (A lot of if's and but's here.) Don't use disclosure as a threat against your wife. The OM's wife deserves to know. Just like you do. You are disclosing because this is the best way to make sure that the affair stops in its tracks. Shine a light on their behaviour - let the full weight of consequences come to play. Their choices were neither morally acceptable nor constructive, and meeting their behaviour head-on is the best way for them to face up to what they did. Just forward what you know to the OM's wife. In my case, the OW's H told me enough to get things out in the open. Do I think he did it in anger - absolutely? But I am also very grateful that he did do it.

Consequences and honesty
Your wife is still hiding behind thinking that there could be a good reason why she did this to you and your family. The lame excuses - that is her trying to come up with a reason that makes what she did acceptable to both her and you. She is trying to avoid telling you the truth because it shames her to confront it. She enjoyed having him declare his love, tell her how much she meant to him; and she welcomed this, even knowing that it was wrong. Knowing that it would and had hurt you. She did it because it made her feel good. Because she thought that she would get away with it. She didn't just cheat on her wedding vows, but she stole from you (because all that emotional energy and connection belonged to you). She has a very long journey to make on her own to understand herself and her actions and choices.

When I first asked my husband to take the polygraph, he got frustrated and angry. I remember him sitting on the edge of our bed saying "Why do you want this? I've told you the truth. Don't you trust me?" I answered, "No. I don't. I may never trust you again." I think that was the moment that he finally began to understand what he had done. Your wife does not currently deserve your trust. To tell you that either you trust her or you should separate? After what you have found out? It's not just unfair, it's ridiculous.

Your wife wants you to let this go (like you did last time). I did this the first time with my husband, as well. You were neither gullible nor naive because you did just that. Your wife said that she loved you and was very sorry for what she'd done, that she would never do something like this to you again. You loved her and you trusted her. You took her promise at face value. Unfortunately, you can no longer do that. If she threatens separation to prevent the truth from coming out, then she is more concerned with her reputation (and the OM's) than she is with the future of your marriage. She is still living in the place where if you close your eyes tightly then the bad stuff goes away. You don't live there.

My thoughts are with you - your situation speaks very closely to me. Be strong.

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.” ― C.S. Lewis

FINE PRINT: My post is simply my own opinion (unless indicated otherwise). Which I believe I am entitled to express, as best as I can.
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post #23 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 08:42 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Originally Posted by *Deidre* View Post
How is marriage counseling going to fix a character defect in your wife?

I wouldn't let it go this time, I'd separate and think about if staying married is a wise idea. But, she sounds like she is into this guy, too. Yea yea...I know, he's so much older and she feels obligated. She likes the attention he gives her, and doesn't care that he is married also? She is telling him things that are causing him to stay interested...if she was like, look I'm married, can't talk anymore, he wouldn't keep professing his love for her. Marriage counseling won't fix your wife's character problems...but, separation will clear your head and help you make a better decision as to if staying with her is wise. Sorry you're hurting.
I agree with this. I'd separate to put some space between the 2 of you. It makes a huge statement to her. If you decide that you want to work on it, she has lots of work to do. Get marriage counseling then too.

"Life always offers you a second chance. It's called tomorrow."
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post #24 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 08:43 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Sorry you are here. IMO, this was physical 15 years ago. OM has been dwelling on it for 15 years and continues to state his undying love for cj's WW.

“You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.”
― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road
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post #25 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 09:27 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Her threatening separation if he tells OMW shows that she holds OM in higher regard than her husband. She would rather leave her husband than cause OM distress.

CJ - what does telling OMW have to do with trusting your wife. Your wife says trust her or separate. That is a threat you cannot back down from. Tell her you cannot trust her because she stayed in communication with OM even after you told her how you felt about him years ago and she promised to stop.

Lastly. If IVF was required for the first two pregnancies then you have to DNA the last kid. It is not impossible that the child is yours, but there is a question simply because of the situation with the first two.

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post #26 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:04 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Originally Posted by cjadek View Post
Firstly thanks for all your replies.
Our first 2 kids are IVF so they are mine. I broke down with her one night and ask if the 3rd was mine. She nearly vomited at the suggestion and the look on her face told me all I needed to know (not that I seriously believe that she isn't but the thought crossed my mind).
I told her tonight that I'm going to reveal the EA to the OM's W and she hit the roof, water works etc. Then told me to that either I trust what she is telling or we should separate.

I'm thinking of asking her to do a Poly any advice on how to approach this. Could that be the answer to my not fully trusting her?

I am being quite irrational atm, one minute all over her showering her with love trying to move on the next minute I'm sad and reclusive. This behavior leaves her not knowing where I'm at (to be honest I don't know either). I feel it's jeopardizing any chance of a reconciliation. We have 3 kids and W is from the other side of the world, part of me fears a separation will mean her returning to her home with the children.
Her reaction could be getting caught. Frankly, you have proven that you have no ability to read her, which is understandable a person who could live a second life for 15 years are usually really good at lying. Besides that, it will give her some consequences and you some agency. Do it.

I want to know what you think you are reconciling to? She has had a relationship with another man your entire marriage. You don't think you're worth more than that, you don't think you can do better than that?

Why would you not tell his wife what have you got to lose exactly except that you are just passive. Sounds like you are just afraid. Passive men get bullied and abused as you have been for 15 years. Your wife is an emotional school yard bully and you are her target. The way you get bullies to stop picking on you is to punch back.

Telling his wife puts a stop to this once and for all or at least give you another person to keep an eye on him. It also brakes the fantasy that these two idiots have had about their affair. It places it squarely in the reality of just at of two emotionally immature people behaving like fools. Do you want to be done with this or not? Stand up and start fighting for yourself.

Take the kids passports and go talk to a lawyer so you can find out your rights. DON'T TELL HER.

All I have to say is you have let her emotionally manipulate you for 15 years, you have never given her consequences and if you don't change your ways now you will be her again in 5 years. Truthfully, even if you do I doubt she is even capable of being honest. She is a con. Her whole life is a con. You married a charlatan. If you continue it will just be more of the same.

Thing is, I think people like you who refuse to do anything to fight for themselves really deep down want to be where they are. It's a parasitic relationship, you like being the host to her parasites, there must be something you get out of it. That is the only explanation for your lack of action. Maybe some of the issue here is you? Why are you allowing this to continue? Why are you allowing yourself to be abused?

Last edited by sokillme; 02-10-2017 at 01:58 PM.
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post #27 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 10:05 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Originally Posted by Pixel View Post
Your situation sounds almost identical to mine. My husband has been communicating via text, email, and whatsapp with the same woman (I think) for years and years. I, like you, swept it under the rug until my most recent discovery. I also like you, have no idea if it was physical or not. However, reading your story I can look objectively and say this of course was physical! Don't be stupid like I have been! Get out! It hurts too much to live like this!

Your wife sounds exactly like my husband. Maybe we should hook them up! Hahah. Bad joke. Anyway, get out. Get out. It won't ever go away.
How do you know they aren't. Have you heard from her husband?
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post #28 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 12:38 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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How do you know they aren't. Have you heard from her husband?
HAHA no.
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post #29 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:18 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Originally Posted by Mizzbak View Post
@cjadek, I am so sorry that your wife has hurt you like this. There are many here who understand your feelings all too well.

As to whether you can find a way back to a place where you could consider staying married, I'm afraid that only you can answer that question. Many have and many haven't. People who heal from the awful pain caused by their spouse's infidelity can do that from inside their marriage, or by simply letting their marriage go. Some of us have made the journey with our unfaithful partner's support. Some of us haven't had that, or haven't even wanted it. But you don't have to decide any of this now, and you should take as long as you need to decide.

Your emotional state
I went from being neutrally OK(ish), to feeling love for my husband and wanting my mariageto survive, to wanting to divorce my husband, several times a day when I was working things through in my head. Feeling like you are being irrational and oscillating between feelings of desperate love and then great sadness (and probably enormous anger and bitterness - if not now, then with time) is completely normal. You are trying to internally reconcile the person that you thought your wife was, with what she has done. You are trying to find a way forward. You are trying to understand all of the consequences of whatever decisions are available to you. You keep "forgetting" and normal life takes over for a little while and then you remember again. And then it starts all over again. Don't expect it to make sense, no part of this "makes sense". If you can afford it, I would recommend that you go for individual counselling (IC) as well. Remember that your MC's patient (if they are good) is your marriage, not you. You need someone who is completely on YOUR side, and is focused on helping you understand what you need and want. If you can't see a therapist by yourself, then do you have a good and wise friend or religious confidant that you can talk this through with?

PA or EA?
I'm going to get shouted down by many on TAM saying this, but I do believe that it is possible that your wife did not have a sexual PA (I'm not going to comment on hugging, kissing etc.). (Although, I don't personally see an EA as a far lesser betrayal.) My husband's morality was not the same as mine. In his mind, as long as he didn't have sex then what he was doing "wasn't so bad". It was wrong, but not an incredibly damaging betrayal (in his mind, NOT mine). When I found out about my husband's second betrayal, I asked him to have a polygraph but backed down once we started working through things. When I found evidence of things that he had "under-represented", he offered to take the polygraph himself. And he did. And it was humiliating for him and very painful. And I'm glad that it was both those things. Because by doing it, he proved some things to me. Firstly that he was (in all likelihood - polygraphs are not 100% guaranteed) telling the truth; and secondly that he was willing to do this to prove how committed he was to helping me recover my faith in our marriage and his commitment to it. He was ashamed. This was a good thing. (If you want some more info about my polygraph situation, please just ask.)

Disclosing to the OM's wife
Absolutely. (If you had done this when you first found out about what had happened, then it is very likely that the relationship would not have continued. Your wife may very well have just found another place to get her emotional high, but she may not have. (A lot of if's and but's here.) Don't use disclosure as a threat against your wife. The OM's wife deserves to know. Just like you do. You are disclosing because this is the best way to make sure that the affair stops in its tracks. Shine a light on their behaviour - let the full weight of consequences come to play. Their choices were neither morally acceptable nor constructive, and meeting their behaviour head-on is the best way for them to face up to what they did. Just forward what you know to the OM's wife. In my case, the OW's H told me enough to get things out in the open. Do I think he did it in anger - absolutely? But I am also very grateful that he did do it.

Consequences and honesty
Your wife is still hiding behind thinking that there could be a good reason why she did this to you and your family. The lame excuses - that is her trying to come up with a reason that makes what she did acceptable to both her and you. She is trying to avoid telling you the truth because it shames her to confront it. She enjoyed having him declare his love, tell her how much she meant to him; and she welcomed this, even knowing that it was wrong. Knowing that it would and had hurt you. She did it because it made her feel good. Because she thought that she would get away with it. She didn't just cheat on her wedding vows, but she stole from you (because all that emotional energy and connection belonged to you). She has a very long journey to make on her own to understand herself and her actions and choices.

When I first asked my husband to take the polygraph, he got frustrated and angry. I remember him sitting on the edge of our bed saying "Why do you want this? I've told you the truth. Don't you trust me?" I answered, "No. I don't. I may never trust you again." I think that was the moment that he finally began to understand what he had done. Your wife does not currently deserve your trust. To tell you that either you trust her or you should separate? After what you have found out? It's not just unfair, it's ridiculous.

Your wife wants you to let this go (like you did last time). I did this the first time with my husband, as well. You were neither gullible nor naive because you did just that. Your wife said that she loved you and was very sorry for what she'd done, that she would never do something like this to you again. You loved her and you trusted her. You took her promise at face value. Unfortunately, you can no longer do that. If she threatens separation to prevent the truth from coming out, then she is more concerned with her reputation (and the OM's) than she is with the future of your marriage. She is still living in the place where if you close your eyes tightly then the bad stuff goes away. You don't live there.

My thoughts are with you - your situation speaks very closely to me. Be strong.
Thank you for posting this it resonates strongly with me. If you could share more about your polygraph experience I'd really appreciate that.
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post #30 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-10-2017, 05:39 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Thanks all for your thoughtful and thought provoking replies, I've learnt allot about my situation and myself and how I plan to proceed.

I'm getting my W to write a timeline of the EA and encourage her to leave nothing out, obviously dates will be sketchy given the timeline but the interactions won't be whatever they were (PA).

Then I'm going to hit her with a poly to prove that timeline isn't more lies and half truths anything but full, frank and total honesty will be terminal for our marriage.

Anyway thanks to you all I am now much more comfortable with whatever and however this turns out. I read the 180 and have implement my version of it, I call it the 135. I woke up this morning full of purpose because no matter what happens I am awesome and I'll be just fine with or without her.

The more she's talked about it the more I'm being swaying by fact my W's father died in her mid teens which totally rocked her world as he was her world, and she viewed OM as a sympathetic father figure (he is 12-15 years older) who listened intently and told her the nice things she wanted to hear, things a Dad might say. Please comment on this as my bull**** filter is clearly not functioning 100%. The email trail from both of my discoveries align with this.

She has been at painful lengths to say there has been and never ever was any PA. Too me there is a possibility there was before we were married. She is convincing, but pathological liers are aren't they!!

The bottom line is I gave my W a 2nd chance when many wouldn't have and she slammed that goodwill/trust (some say naivety) back into my face then lied to my face to cover up detail.
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