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post #91 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 05:53 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Hi @cjadek – You asked for more details on the polygraph, so I’ve tried to share the more personal aspects about what I learned from/about it. If you want to know anything else of a more practical nature, please just ask...

The polygraph isn’t a magic bullet. It's important to understand what it will and won't give you. Even if the polygraph supports your wife's story, you're probably not suddenly going to feel better. (Being able to put a line around the hurt doesn’t take it away.) You'll read that polygraphs are not admissible in court, easy to manipulate etc. Here's the thing. When I first understood what my husband's affair meant, I felt like all the trust that I had in him was gone. He told me that he was sorry, that he wanted to do whatever he could to fix the damage that he'd done. But to me, those were just empty words. I was flailing around in this quicksand of doubt. The polygraph became a large log that I could use to give me the leverage that I needed to get out. I didn't know (still don’t) whether the polygraph result was entirely reliable, but it gave me something better than what I had. And I could build on that.

Why it helped me…
The biggest reason why I got some peace of mind from the process? For my husband to go through it was incredibly intrusive and humiliating for him – he’s a very private person. To discuss, in detail, the affair and exactly what he had shared with this other woman, with a complete stranger? Not a therapist who was on his side, but a stranger whose job it was to tell whether he was lying? It brought home to him the extent of the damage that his actions had caused to our relationship. That I would no longer take his word. I didn't try and hide it. And I didn't try to justify it. It was simple cause and effect. So for him to do this thing willingly was a huge deal for me.
The second reason came from the examiner himself. I found an examiner who is much older and pretty experienced. Before the test, he and I had several conversations about my situation and what I needed to know. He talked me through what I could ask and what I wouldn't be able to confirm. After the exam, when he said that in his professional opinion, my husband was telling the truth regarding his affair, I felt supported in my desire to begin believing in my husband again. If a completely objective outsider, with no vested interest in the outcome, and a fair amount of experience and training in lie detection, was comfortable that my husband was telling the truth, then couldn’t I at least be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?

What the polygraph can tell you…
Polygraphs can only be used to confirm objective facts. Questions with “yes” or “no” answers. Things like- was there inappropriate physical contact between your wife and her affair partner? (You will have defined for the examiner what you mean by “inappropriate” and he/she will discuss that with your wife to make sure that you're all on the same page.) Did they have regular or very intermittent contact during your marriage? How long have they recently been in contact? Etc.
You won’t be able to use it to confirm subjective things like your wife’s feelings for this man. Or even her feelings for you. You need to think about what it is you want to know. If you’re asking your wife to confirm the timeline that you’ve asked for, then asking “Did you leave anything out?” is not going to cut it. Of course she left something out. Very few of us have perfect recall of the last week, never mind the past 15 years. So you’ll need to decide on substantive matters of fact to check on.

Regarding finding the examiner – I googled polygraph+infidelity+(my home town) and picked a couple of possibilities. See who gets back to you when you tell them why you want the test. Then ask them questions. I chose the two examiners who showed an awareness of what the polygraph could do to my relationship (and not just for it). Who were willing to engage with me, rather than just send me a quote. (I was asked to confirm that I had my husband’s agreement up front by both of them.)

I am concerned by the advice that you’re being given here to try and test your wife by suddenly springing the polygraph on her after she has done the timeline and given it to you. She has hurt you terribly already. Do you really think that trying to catch her lying or “trickle truthing” is helpful here? You don’t need to play games. Ask her for the timeline and then tell her that you’ll be asking her to take a polygraph once she gives it to you. (If that is what you end up choosing to do.) The examiner doesn't spring the questions on the subject - they know beforehand what they are going to get asked. You don't want your wife to fail. You are wanting to confirm that she has told you the truth as far as she is able. You’re asking her for the truth and then you’re asking her to further support that truth. Believe me, I completely get your anger, but please treat her with respect and dignity. If you don’t, then you’re allowing her actions to change you into someone that you’re not, and if you are serious about considering reconciliation, it potentially undermines that as well. Believe me when I say that hurting the person you love (even if they hurt you first) doesn't make you feel any better. Just hurts you again - sucks, but there it is.

Basically, if I had to choose all over again whether to go ahead with the polygraph or not, I’d do it. I hope that helps.
Strength and thoughts with you.


“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”
― C.S. Lewis
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post #92 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 06:01 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Originally Posted by VladDracul View Post
To me, that's a little bit too much sugar for a quarter. If you received a call from an unknown party asking that you write down their email in the first five seconds of the call, what would you do?
I'd be straight forward and tell her your calling her to seek her advice on a friendship that has gone on between her husband and your wife for the last 15 years that been too close for comfort for your taste. If she hangs up, call back in a couple of days.
I like it. I think she's unlikely to hang up immediately after that as her curiosity will be too strong not to hear the next few words at the very least.
Anyone else concur with this?
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post #93 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 06:08 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Hi @cjadek – You asked for more details on the polygraph, so I’ve tried to share the more personal aspects about what I learned from/about it. If you want to know anything else of a more practical nature, please just ask...

The polygraph isn’t a magic bullet. It's important to understand what it will and won't give you. Even if the polygraph supports your wife's story, you're probably not suddenly going to feel better. (Being able to put a line around the hurt doesn’t take it away.) You'll read that polygraphs are not admissible in court, easy to manipulate etc. Here's the thing. When I first understood what my husband's affair meant, I felt like all the trust that I had in him was gone. He told me that he was sorry, that he wanted to do whatever he could to fix the damage that he'd done. But to me, those were just empty words. I was flailing around in this quicksand of doubt. The polygraph became a large log that I could use to give me the leverage that I needed to get out. I didn't know (still don’t) whether the polygraph result was entirely reliable, but it gave me something better than what I had. And I could build on that.

Why it helped me…
The biggest reason why I got some peace of mind from the process? For my husband to go through it was incredibly intrusive and humiliating for him – he’s a very private person. To discuss, in detail, the affair and exactly what he had shared with this other woman, with a complete stranger? Not a therapist who was on his side, but a stranger whose job it was to tell whether he was lying? It brought home to him the extent of the damage that his actions had caused to our relationship. That I would no longer take his word. I didn't try and hide it. And I didn't try to justify it. It was simple cause and effect. So for him to do this thing willingly was a huge deal for me.
The second reason came from the examiner himself. I found an examiner who is much older and pretty experienced. Before the test, he and I had several conversations about my situation and what I needed to know. He talked me through what I could ask and what I wouldn't be able to confirm. After the exam, when he said that in his professional opinion, my husband was telling the truth regarding his affair, I felt supported in my desire to begin believing in my husband again. If a completely objective outsider, with no vested interest in the outcome, and a fair amount of experience and training in lie detection, was comfortable that my husband was telling the truth, then couldn’t I at least be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt?

What the polygraph can tell you…
Polygraphs can only be used to confirm objective facts. Questions with “yes” or “no” answers. Things like- was there inappropriate physical contact between your wife and her affair partner? (You will have defined for the examiner what you mean by “inappropriate” and he/she will discuss that with your wife to make sure that you're all on the same page.) Did they have regular or very intermittent contact during your marriage? How long have they recently been in contact? Etc.
You won’t be able to use it to confirm subjective things like your wife’s feelings for this man. Or even her feelings for you. You need to think about what it is you want to know. If you’re asking your wife to confirm the timeline that you’ve asked for, then asking “Did you leave anything out?” is not going to cut it. Of course she left something out. Very few of us have perfect recall of the last week, never mind the past 15 years. So you’ll need to decide on substantive matters of fact to check on.

Regarding finding the examiner – I googled polygraph+infidelity+(my home town) and picked a couple of possibilities. See who gets back to you when you tell them why you want the test. Then ask them questions. I chose the two examiners who showed an awareness of what the polygraph could do to my relationship (and not just for it). Who were willing to engage with me, rather than just send me a quote. (I was asked to confirm that I had my husband’s agreement up front by both of them.)

I am concerned by the advice that you’re being given here to try and test your wife by suddenly springing the polygraph on her after she has done the timeline and given it to you. She has hurt you terribly already. Do you really think that trying to catch her lying or “trickle truthing” is helpful here? You don’t need to play games. Ask her for the timeline and then tell her that you’ll be asking her to take a polygraph once she gives it to you. (If that is what you end up choosing to do.) The examiner doesn't spring the questions on the subject - they know beforehand what they are going to get asked. You don't want your wife to fail. You are wanting to confirm that she has told you the truth as far as she is able. You’re asking her for the truth and then you’re asking her to further support that truth. Believe me, I completely get your anger, but please treat her with respect and dignity. If you don’t, then you’re allowing her actions to change you into someone that you’re not, and if you are serious about considering reconciliation, it potentially undermines that as well. Believe me when I say that hurting the person you love (even if they hurt you first) doesn't make you feel any better. Just hurts you again - sucks, but there it is.

Basically, if I had to choose all over again whether to go ahead with the polygraph or not, I’d do it. I hope that helps.
Strength and thoughts with you.
Thank you so much for taking the time to detail your thoughts to a complete stranger I assure you they are very much appreciated.
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post #94 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 06:25 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

The original polygraphs worked on electrical resistance and variance.The idea behind it was that if a person was lying they would sweat more and their body temperature would rise thus lowering the electrical resistance of their skin.This is the reason why an electric shock is more dangerous if you are wet or standing in water.The modern ones are a bit more complex,using EEG and MRI in certain circumstances.The problem with them is if your wife has herself convinced that she has done nothing wrong then the polygraph is useless.And the biggest problem is if someone can get themselves worked up about something they can fool the test.There is not a court in the land that will accept them.You may get what's called the parking lot confession but that's it.
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post #95 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 07:02 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Originally Posted by cjadek View Post
I'm also looking for some advice on how approach OMs W.
It will be a phone call to her place of work.

My current thinking is I will start off with something like "This is CJ (then spell my surname) my email address is CJ@gmail.com (my real email is very easy to remember) could you please write that down.
What I'm aiming for here is if she has a adverse response (which is highly likely) and hangs up then calms down later she will have a way of contacting me.

Then I'm going to say I have an disputable and undeniable email trail that proves your H and my W have been having, at best case, an EA on and off for the last 14 years and I'm happy to send her that email trail.

I want to convince her stay calm and not approach her H but to work with me to find more correspondence. If she can get access to her Hs email she could possibly get 95% of it.

This email trail will be harder for her to read than it has been for me as her H has been persistently declaring undying love for my W and my W has not once reciprocated feelings of love. (I differentiate "I love you" and "lots of love").

Any and all suggestions welcome.
CJ

Yes, agreed, his wife really needs to know what her WH has been up to behind her back.
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post #96 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 07:11 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

When calling the wife ... straight to the point, who you are, who your wife is, and what her husband has been doing.

No, I wouldn't tell her to write your number down in the beginning of the conversation.

"Sitting here with foot tapping ... waiting for you to call his wife."




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post #97 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 07:13 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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The original polygraphs worked on electrical resistance and variance.The idea behind it was that if a person was lying they would sweat more and their body temperature would rise thus lowering the electrical resistance of their skin.This is the reason why an electric shock is more dangerous if you are wet or standing in water.The modern ones are a bit more complex,using EEG and MRI in certain circumstances.The problem with them is if your wife has herself convinced that she has done nothing wrong then the polygraph is useless.And the biggest problem is if someone can get themselves worked up about something they can fool the test.There is not a court in the land that will accept them.You may get what's called the parking lot confession but that's it.
@Andy1001 - have you has any personal experience with polygraphs? I get that they wouldn't be acceptable in a criminal court for a guilty finding because of the possibility of a false positive result ("reasonable doubt" and all that.) But I do know that they're used extensively in the financial services industry and other commercial environments. (Legally in my country, they can be used under specific circumstances in labour-related disputes - not as a basis for a finding of guilt on their own, but can be used in support of other evidence.)

After the reading that I did, I was pretty comfortable that, unless he was trained in countermeasures, my husband wouldn't be able to fool the test entirely. As I have known him for quite some time, I was reasonably comfortable that he wasn't trained in countermeasures. The examiner and I spoke for quite some time about what happens under stress, because I was concerned about the possibility of a false positive. I was satisfied that it was more likely that there would be an undetermined finding if my husband's stress was very great. The examiner was very willing to address my concerns and questions. (FWIW as a measure of my gullibility, if I had to define my "belief" in the technique as it was used in my context on a scale of 1 to 10, I'd give it a 7. Astrology is a 0. Water dowsing is a 2 - only because I've watched it be successful on more than one occasion - which I ascribed more to the dowser's ability to read the land than anything else.)

As I said, I was also willing to rely on the examiner's opinion as a result of his professional experience and exposure to this type of situation many times before - as a more objective opinion holder with no vested interest. I'm not really wanting to get into a discussion about whether polygraphs are (always) accurate or not, but am simply sharing that in my specific circumstance, I found one useful.

“I have learned now that while those who speak about one's miseries usually hurt, those who keep silence hurt more.”
― C.S. Lewis
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post #98 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 07:35 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

Remember to not let your wife know even after. If she's angry with you you'll know NC was broken. If she's angry with you for taking your healing into your own hands, you'll have a wife who is NOT remorseful.

It's an important benchmark

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post #99 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 08:50 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Forgot to mention I'm seeing an IC today and we have a MC session booked for tomorrow.

Does anyone think having the same person doing IC and MC is a conflict of interest?
Yes this is always thought to be not a good idea. Also your wife probably isn't even ready for MC because she hasn't even dealt with her EA yet. If you can't go to MC make sure they don't rug sweep as many of them do. You are not responsible for your wife's EA, and it is way too early to get over it. However this may be what you hear. If you do I would get up and walk out.
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post #100 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 08:55 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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I did say to W that I was going to inform OMs W but haven't mentioned it since and allot of water has passed under the bridge since then so I don't think it's even on her radar, plus I said I'd need her help as I don't where to start looking. Once I realised that I screwed up telling her that I taken it under ground which is what I should've done in the first place.

Secondly W is extremely unlikely to have contacted OM about this or anything else. A month ago she wrote him an email that I was apart of to OM outlining how much their correspondence had hurt me and jeopardized our M and she would never be in touch again and asked him to respect hers/ours wishes.
I am checking daily for any sign of comms and as expected nothing to date so highly improbable.

I did screw up though, I sent OM an email the day after Ws email outlining what I thought of him a married man constantly declaring undying love for my W and how would he think his family would feel reading the email trail. I did however say this as a question as opposed to a threat. The worst case here is he's gone and covered his tracks (deleted all emails from W) which wouldn't be great but not terminal as I still have the last 2 years worth safely storage in cloud. I certainly doubt he would've confess to his wife based on my email as it was non threatening just my feelings.

On a different note while researching OMW I did discover that OM and OMW were married early in 2013 (just a few weeks before we moved countries and close to time they meet for lunch) and as they have 2 adult children and W said he was already married but it wasn't a happy marriage I'm guessing this was a vow renewal, I guess that proves he was either feeding my W lies about the state of his marriage or he's a complete ****wit renewing his vows all the while actively declaring his love for my W at every opportunity. I've got a photo of OM and OMW on the day (from facebook) they renewed their vows smiling away, I'm going to swipe that smile of his smug face I was originally going to show my W the photo to show her the human face of the other victim a real human, but I've pulled my head in as that would alert her to the fact that I'm actually going to contact OMW. (See I'm learning!!!)
Show her after.

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post #101 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-12-2017, 09:04 PM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Hi @cjadekI am concerned by the advice that you’re being given here to try and test your wife by suddenly springing the polygraph on her after she has done the timeline and given it to you. She has hurt you terribly already. Do you really think that trying to catch her lying or “trickle truthing” is helpful here? You don’t need to play games. Ask her for the timeline and then tell her that you’ll be asking her to take a polygraph once she gives it to you. (If that is what you end up choosing to do.) The examiner doesn't spring the questions on the subject - they know beforehand what they are going to get asked. You don't want your wife to fail. You are wanting to confirm that she has told you the truth as far as she is able. You’re asking her for the truth and then you’re asking her to further support that truth. Believe me, I completely get your anger, but please treat her with respect and dignity. If you don’t, then you’re allowing her actions to change you into someone that you’re not, and if you are serious about considering reconciliation, it potentially undermines that as well. Believe me when I say that hurting the person you love (even if they hurt you first) doesn't make you feel any better. Just hurts you again - sucks, but there it is.
I agree with this. When I was little when I got spanked. I was basically made to go to my room and wait. Sometimes a hour. The fear of the spanking was always worse then the spanking itself. I think the fear of the polygraph is good leverage. However remember your still a guy who has to give his wife a polygraph because of all the lies she has told you.

However if it is just as you say and she never told him she loved him back and never was truly physical with him then this seem different. It was really all about her ego, I doubt she even really cared for this man, she just wanted the platitudes. That creates a whole other set of questions though, what is the deal with your wife. She still has some major character issues.
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post #102 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 01:39 AM Thread Starter
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Yes this is always thought to be not a good idea. Also your wife probably isn't even ready for MC because she hasn't even dealt with her EA yet. If you can't go to MC make sure they don't rug sweep as many of them do. You are not responsible for your wife's EA, and it is way too early to get over it. However this may be what you hear. If you do I would get up and walk out.
I went to IC today and laid it down. I'm thinking about it more as mediation than IC at this point, I get my requirements down he listens and replays them to the W, I'm not there so it's cordial and candid.

I really challenged him on how he would go about getting me the confidence I need she that W is telling the truth given her propensity for telling lies about the EA. He was a little stunned how forthright about this I was. I asked him if he'd ever used a Polygraph as part of the process, he had.
I gave him my unprofessional opinion. "I just can't see how we're going to satisfy me sufficiently without the aid of technology"

When he talked about our MC session booked for tomorrow I told him sternly there is no M to C at this point in time. He agreed and tomorrows session is W only. Would love to be a fly on the wall as I hope he's not going sugar coat what I laid down
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post #103 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 03:58 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

I agree with not springing the poly on her unannounced. The point is to get the truth, not get points for creativity.

In my experience it is the buildup and the parking lot confessions which bring out the most meat.

Plus, you don't want her to fail the poly. If someone is rooting for a poly fail then just end the marriage imho

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post #104 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 06:24 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Ummmm yes but .... if my husband tells me to stop talking to someone because it upsets him, and because this man told me he loved me, that would be it, I would stop immediately.

Immediately, and would never respond to any correspondence from him ever again. PERIOD!!!


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Most of us would, yes, but unfortunately, not everybody sees the world the same way.

Like I said previously, I had a girl who was into me while I was dating somebody else, and (at that time) I saw no real issue with it - because *I* wasn't interested. My GF at the time wasn't happy, naturally, but from my POV, there wasn't much I could do. I certainly know better now, but at the time, I quite literally thought nothing of it. As far as I was concerned, I had zero interest in this other girl, therefore she was no threat to me, my GF or our relationship. I probably said things like "don't you trust me?", etc.

In this case, OP's wife is getting something from all of this, but I do think it's purely friendship and that nothing really points to her having, or previously having, any romantic thoughts or feelings towards him. She has a connection to him, to be sure, but I don't think she sees it as anything threatening the marriage.

The sticking point to me (and everybody else) is that HE doesn't view her as 'just a friend', and that's not okay, and therefore she should have ended it based on that, many years ago, if not out of loyalty to the marriage. This is what OP needs to get through to her, yet she seems stubborn and likely feels attacked (particularly in regards to prior accusations of legit cheating).

If my GF back in the day accused me of cheating on her with the other girl who liked me, I would have reacted quite similarly, simply because I truly did have absolutely no interest in her in that way. But my inaction on the matter didn't help things, nor does OP's wife's inaction - and worse, breaking her no contact agreement.

None of this points to "affair", IMO - just a lack of respect for her husband, and quite possibly herself.

Surely she should know that this guy has other intentions, or at least hopes. That he's purposefully always said the 'right things', and has generated an intimate rapport with her for these reasons, and has held out hope for all these years that things will fall into place for him.

Most of us (but apparently not her) would have shut this 'friendship' down the instant he professed his love for her. I have female friends, some married, some not. If one of them professed their love to me - knowing full well that I am married - I would instantly lose respect for them, and the friendship would be over. Same if I were single, and a married woman said that to me. That speaks to the character of that person, and that's not a character trait I'm interested in. For that reason alone, OP's wife should have stopped this years ago, IMO.

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post #105 of 224 (permalink) Old 02-13-2017, 09:08 AM
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Re: Any way back from 2nd EA?

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Most of us would, yes, but unfortunately, not everybody sees the world the same way.

Like I said previously, I had a girl who was into me while I was dating somebody else, and (at that time) I saw no real issue with it - because *I* wasn't interested. My GF at the time wasn't happy, naturally, but from my POV, there wasn't much I could do. I certainly know better now, but at the time, I quite literally thought nothing of it. As far as I was concerned, I had zero interest in this other girl, therefore she was no threat to me, my GF or our relationship. I probably said things like "don't you trust me?", etc.

In this case, OP's wife is getting something from all of this, but I do think it's purely friendship and that nothing really points to her having, or previously having, any romantic thoughts or feelings towards him. She has a connection to him, to be sure, but I don't think she sees it as anything threatening the marriage.

The sticking point to me (and everybody else) is that HE doesn't view her as 'just a friend', and that's not okay, and therefore she should have ended it based on that, many years ago, if not out of loyalty to the marriage. This is what OP needs to get through to her, yet she seems stubborn and likely feels attacked (particularly in regards to prior accusations of legit cheating).

If my GF back in the day accused me of cheating on her with the other girl who liked me, I would have reacted quite similarly, simply because I truly did have absolutely no interest in her in that way. But my inaction on the matter didn't help things, nor does OP's wife's inaction - and worse, breaking her no contact agreement.

None of this points to "affair", IMO - just a lack of respect for her husband, and quite possibly herself.

Surely she should know that this guy has other intentions, or at least hopes. That he's purposefully always said the 'right things', and has generated an intimate rapport with her for these reasons, and has held out hope for all these years that things will fall into place for him.

Most of us (but apparently not her) would have shut this 'friendship' down the instant he professed his love for her. I have female friends, some married, some not. If one of them professed their love to me - knowing full well that I am married - I would instantly lose respect for them, and the friendship would be over. Same if I were single, and a married woman said that to me. That speaks to the character of that person, and that's not a character trait I'm interested in. For that reason alone, OP's wife should have stopped this years ago, IMO.


I agree that it certainly shows bad very bad character from the OM.

He's not shown respect for her marriage OR her husband, at all!


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