WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed - Page 5 - Talk About Marriage
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post #61 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 07:02 PM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

And you use her affair to justify or EXPLAIN your own behavior. You are guilty of the same TYPE of coping issue. You went and had an affair to get your mojo back. To see if it made you feel better. You are guilty of the same. Its just a matter of who did what first.

I think your anger WAS warrented....(but this festering isn't). And im not saying it to defend your wife, I think she does not deserve second chance... (at all.) If you recall correctly i say divorce, with as much love and respect that your can muster.

What I posted was for you to think more about YOUR mental health. YOU are denying any issue with yourself, and if there IS ONE, its caused by your wife. Wrong. This is incorrect. **** happens in life, its how you deal with it that matters and you are JUST AS IMMATURE AND DYSFUNCTIONAL as your wife is in my opinion.

But even though i know my post is offensive probably...Im still on YOUR SIDE. i want you healthy...and sir, i don't read healthy mindset here..... I think you are well intending however.

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post #62 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 07:03 PM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

and YES I READ HER POST. i READ IT FIRST DAY SHE POSTED and i read YOUR POST....im not having issues with comprehension. But maybe you are not comprehending my point?
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post #63 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-16-2017, 09:52 PM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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and YES I READ HER POST. i READ IT FIRST DAY SHE POSTED and i read YOUR POST....im not having issues with comprehension. But maybe you are not comprehending my point?
I'm not sure if the OP comprehended your point, but I certainly did. Yes, you are DEFINITELY projecting. I took the time to read both her and his separate posts, and it seems to me that they BOTH carry blame in this complete disaster of a marriage. Outside of that, I'm not sure why you, a total stranger, would make excuses for the WW. In her own words, she clearly describes her alleged former self: "I turned the hill of disagreements and frustration in our marriage into a mountain and I very selfishly took in the attention and crossed every line there is to cross in a marriage I cheated, lied, was terrible to my husband and I was a terrible mother st the time to my kids and my family and was extremely selfish in my actions". The OP was no saint either and did absolutely nothing to pursue improving the situation (quite the opposite).

After reading all of the OP's posts and TAM member responses, I am certainly torn on this situation. I do not post very often here (but frequently read!), but this situation really perplexed me. On one hand, the WW seems to genuinely want to R and keep the marriage going; and yes, it possibly could be due to financial and logistical complacency. On the other hand, how on Earth could she go 18 WHOLE YEARS not noticing how jacked up her BH's emotions toward her were. I mean, it takes me about 5 seconds to realize that my wife is upset with me about something that she is not saying. That speaks volumes.

However, BH is here, asking for advice, so CLEARLY, he still has feelings for WW, whether or not he can come to grips with that himself. He's just maniacally (and deservedly so) hesitant about risking further damage to himself with potential R. IMHO, after 18 years, it's somewhat pointless to finger-point at either party as they both have done a ton of damage to the marriage, and both clearly require IC (and extremely NUETRAL MC) before a truly rational decision can be made regarding the remainder of their time on this Earth. Another TAM member mentioned that without IC, the OP will simply carry some of the same issues to a new relationship and begin another potential disaster. I AGREE!

OP, I am a Christian and whenever I am at a MAJOR fork in the road, as you currently are, I pray and put it in God's hands. He's NEVER let me down. That should be step one!
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post #64 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 05:39 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

Wow, some of the post on here boggle the mind. OP's revenge ONS balances out his wife's 6 month sexual PA? Her callous behavior for 15 years isn't a reason for her husband to be angry? My goodness, just 3 years ago she's making out with one of her male "friends."

OP never said he expected a spotless house. He did mention all of the hard work he had to do with his wife supposedly going to her parents house to rest and ignore his calls. (Which for a woman who would insist on being able to hang out with male friends after being busted having 6 month PA, doesn't pass the smell test)

Fleck how have you confirmed that there were not other OMs? All those years of hanging out with male friends and she had only one make out session? You buy that all those times that she's coming home late from work saying she went to her parents house to rest?

BTW: I applaud your ability to stick by your kids. All of the effort and sacrifices you made despite your wife resting and hanging out with her male friends has born fruit in raising successful children.
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post #65 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 06:56 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

My goodness, some people need to step away from the projector for a minute. The original poster is NOT your wayward husband. He is NOT. He was first a betrayed husband to a woman who for at 15 years had various affairs and did not give a **** about his or anyone else's recovery. He stuck around for the kids and detached. She even admitted she was ****ty to him without remorse.

Not addressing his pain and crappy coping on his part? HELL YES.

Evil man who deserves to burn in hell? Nope, so just chill.

Bashing the OP because he doesn't tow your line is not useful. Lots of BHs preach "dump the *****" and get pretty insistent, to the point of bashing. That doesn't help either.

The OP has a tough path. He detached for what seems to be 16 years. That is a lot of time to be emotionally separated and for the sole purpose of making sure his wife did not screw over his kids with her crappy choices of affair partners. And now we are telling him to eff off for that choice? Nope. It is not the choice a healthy person should have made, but he did it for his kids.

Reattaching to this woman, no matter how angelic and changed she is now WILL BE DIFFICULT. Give him a break, will you??????
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post #66 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 07:23 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

I don't believe that Fleek needs "a break". He is here, a person who appears to me to be an intelligent man, to put his situation in the arena of debate, with like and unlike minds, where he can make a decision that will impact both his life, and other people's lives.

I'm sure that he can speak for himself, but I see great value in everyone's opinions here so far, even from those who are possibly "projecting", and he will be more confident in his decisions because of that. He has already proven himself to be a disciplined man, and I think that he can handle a few daggers thrown at him here and there.

Just to reiterate, it is my understanding that his wife cheated on him and threw their wedding vows in the toilet. She is to blame. Actions have consequences. If she hadn't committed adultery, these events would have never been set into motion. The paths taken from that event have led Fleek to where he is today. He had no say as to the start of the conflict, but he had a substantial amount of control over the direction that it took afterwards.

I would like to state the opinion that Fleek is here, asking for our council, and his wife is elsewhere, asking for advice there. We should not lose sight of that. We should endeavor to make sure that we are addressing Fleek's concerns and helping him as we would want to be helped if we were in his shoes. Sometimes that means saying, "Brother, you need to look at yourself some as well". While his wife's post on the other message board is helpful to a degree, she is not our primary concern.
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post #67 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 08:57 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

I have read everything, and opted to think about your situation before replying.

I don't think you really addressed it, but how has your sexual relationship been in your marriage? Just curious if that was good or not?

You both have been through a lot. A tremendous amount of time has passed, children born, raised and out of college. You have undoubtedly been a great dad, and I envy that you were able to sta in your marriage, somewhere I fell short too early for my kids.

Yet, now they are grown, and you still are together. One thing that is great about your situation, is that you haven't blurted it out to the whole world. You kept it private, so not everyone around you knows your dirty laundry. That's going to be a nice feature of what I am about to suggest. My idea is this: Perhaps separate, right within your own home. If you need more definition, then one of you move out into a simple, inexpensive studio nearby. Then date. Except, have each other be the first shot as your only dating partner. What I am saying is date each other. Exclusively. Start from the beginning. After a small amount of time apart has gone by, start calling each other. Sharing about your day, etc. Eventually ask each other out, and plan some fun dates. Eventually, hold her hand. Go in for a kiss. So on and so forth. See if you can esentallly start your romance over.

No one needs to know you are doing this. It can be a sweet secret between the two of you. View each other only from the new point forward as best as you can. Who knows, you very well may fall in love all over again. If it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. You can hit the point where you both say you tried everything over the years, and you just couldn't make a go of it in the end. The you can divorce on nearly the greatest terms possible, which will be best for your kids and future grandkids.

There is something about the two of you. I think you have a decent chance of falling in love again. She was immature and irresponsible. You reaction was severe for revenge, and you both have paid for it most of your adult lives. Close all those chapters. Set that entire book on the shelf. You both will know what is in that book, but LEAVE IT THERE. Open a fresh book, and write a new love story.

I wish you so much happiness.

Ciao,

Spicy
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post #68 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 09:09 AM Thread Starter
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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Originally Posted by Dr. Stupid View Post
I don't believe that Fleek needs "a break". He is here, a person who appears to me to be an intelligent man, to put his situation in the arena of debate, with like and unlike minds, where he can make a decision that will impact both his life, and other people's lives.

I'm sure that he can speak for himself, but I see great value in everyone's opinions here so far, even from those who are possibly "projecting", and he will be more confident in his decisions because of that. He has already proven himself to be a disciplined man, and I think that he can handle a few daggers thrown at him here and there.

Just to reiterate, it is my understanding that his wife cheated on him and threw their wedding vows in the toilet. She is to blame. Actions have consequences. If she hadn't committed adultery, these events would have never been set into motion. The paths taken from that event have led Fleek to where he is today. He had no say as to the start of the conflict, but he had a substantial amount of control over the direction that it took afterwards.

I would like to state the opinion that Fleek is here, asking for our council, and his wife is elsewhere, asking for advice there. We should not lose sight of that. We should endeavor to make sure that we are addressing Fleek's concerns and helping him as we would want to be helped if we were in his shoes. Sometimes that means saying, "Brother, you need to look at yourself some as well". While his wife's post on the other message board is helpful to a degree, she is not our primary concern.
This is exactly what I'm trying to do. I read a couple of other forums and decided to post here. I could have posted at SI and gotten a bunch of hugs, sending strength and such; I don't want or need that. I want info from people that can offer some insight into issues they've worked through, or even been there done that learned this advice. I would like to be pointed to different resources, techniques, or even how to begin stepping towards reconnecting and coping with this in an appropriate way. I appreciate the different perspectives, even those from folks that cheated. I would like to think everybody here isn't out to start some internet argument or dogpile. I would hope we're trying to offer each other support and/or guidance, especially in this sub forum. I've read horrifying things here that have angered and saddened me. I can understand how some aspects of my story would bother some people. I'm not going to get baited into some forum tit for tat exchange. I don't want to hurt anyone or add to anyone's burden. I also I don't know who's posting here. I don't know if they've cheated, been betrayed, or both. I don't know their life experience or what they've been through. I don't know where they're at in this process either. I know from firsthand experience that the heartbreak of infidelity can be a raw, gut-wrenching wound that's almost more than a person can bear. There was a time where I could not have had a rational conversation about this situation. I would have jumped down anyone's throat and verbally thrashed them if they thought what I did (or was doing) was wrong. I have had to do some soul searching and self introspection too. I have a helluva lot more empathy for everybody nowadays. I have my anger under control. Maybe I've just matured.

This discussion has been helpful, I don't mind getting a few stones flung at me either. I'm not without sin here, believe me, I know that. I'm at a crossroads and I need to figure out which way to go.

We have done the discovery process of this ordeal. My WW has taken a polygraph from an examiner that administers exams to sex offenders out on parole. The dude was beyond professional and had state of the art equipment. I know the tests are not infallible, but I do think I have the whole story. Or as much as a person is going to get anyway. I've also spoken to the OBS and AP. The AP is the one that disclosed this to me just to spite my wife. I know more than enough about what happened. I've fully disclosed everything I've done too.

So how does a person start to recover their relationship? Is it a fake it until you make it kinda thing? How do you start to reattach? Can a fulfilling marriage exist after an A?
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post #69 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 10:12 AM Thread Starter
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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Originally Posted by Spicy View Post
I have read everything, and opted to think about your situation before replying.

I don't think you really addressed it, but how has your sexual relationship been in your marriage? Just curious if that was good or not?

You both have been through a lot. A tremendous amount of time has passed, children born, raised and out of college. You have undoubtedly been a great dad, and I envy that you were able to sta in your marriage, somewhere I fell short too early for my kids.

Yet, now they are grown, and you still are together. One thing that is great about your situation, is that you haven't blurted it out to the whole world. You kept it private, so not everyone around you knows your dirty laundry. That's going to be a nice feature of what I am about to suggest. My idea is this: Perhaps separate, right within your own home. If you need more definition, then one of you move out into a simple, inexpensive studio nearby. Then date. Except, have each other be the first shot as your only dating partner. What I am saying is date each other. Exclusively. Start from the beginning. After a small amount of time apart has gone by, start calling each other. Sharing about your day, etc. Eventually ask each other out, and plan some fun dates. Eventually, hold her hand. Go in for a kiss. So on and so forth. See if you can esentallly start your romance over.

No one needs to know you are doing this. It can be a sweet secret between the two of you. View each other only from the new point forward as best as you can. Who knows, you very well may fall in love all over again. If it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. You can hit the point where you both say you tried everything over the years, and you just couldn't make a go of it in the end. The you can divorce on nearly the greatest terms possible, which will be best for your kids and future grandkids.

There is something about the two of you. I think you have a decent chance of falling in love again. She was immature and irresponsible. You reaction was severe for revenge, and you both have paid for it most of your adult lives. Close all those chapters. Set that entire book on the shelf. You both will know what is in that book, but LEAVE IT THERE. Open a fresh book, and write a new love story.

I wish you so much happiness.
Thank you for your suggestions. We've discussed doing something similar to this, even to completely divorce and try to start over. We've even discussed how to split stuff up and she's been way more than fair to me in that regard. We do still have a kid at home, she's attending community college in a 2+2 program. She will likely be going away to school this fall. We have some space now, but not enough to do the in house separation. Our kids have no idea about any of this. We could possibly split this fall and try to reconnect like you mention without exposing this completely to everyone.

Before the A, I thought our sex life was awesome. I think she would agree. It was intimate, connected, varied, frequent, playful, satisfying, and we both initiated - no complaints from me. Post A it changed. Mind movies, disgust, anger, and loss of trust, no vulnerability, and no emotional connection didn't lead to passionate sex. For me anyway. It's really a complicated mess with a minefield full of issues. We do have sex though. We always have.
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post #70 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 10:24 AM
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WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

IDK. 30+ year relationship; very good; no infidelity; hard work and good kids. So that's me.

But I'm also a quick - and good -judge of character. Friends at work have pointed out that when I've decided someone isn't worth my time (they're unable or unwilling to learn; they're stupid and don't know it; etc.) I write them off and they're dead to me. They laugh about it, but they also find, months later after they've invest time, effort and reputation - that they feel the same and I was right.

I also don't question myself or look back. I do learn from my mistakes - and I freely and quickly make them - but I expect that and don't beat myself up over past decisions.

I'm high IQ and I only say that to also note that I am highly compartmentalized and see similarities where others don't (abstractions) and similarities where others don't (ability to see the details). Think bill Clinton getting a BJ while on the phone with Yassar Arafat.

So I've read much but not all of this and nothing at SI.

My dad was a shrink. He believed you should believe that people are what they say and do and that character rarely changes. He dealt with tough situations with vets. Some sociopaths, etc. Many just trying to cope.

But I learned that I alone control my life and I alone control my emotions and happiness. I will never give someone else that power which is why I eliminate negative people and people of poor character from my life.

I also don't believe in protecting others from consequences, though I probably do it too much.

So I guess if I were this conflicted, and my decision was dependent on COMPLETE TRUST AND FAITH that someone else made a HUGE change of character, that would be too fantastical for me to accept - logically and with my personal safety and happiness.

Maybe I'd separate - let the world know the truth - I'm conflicted and may or may not stay and it's completely dependent on this character change in someone else.

Once that cat was out of the bag, THEN I think I'd see what she was made of. Reputation is then no longer a question. I wouldn't be nasty but be completely honest with limited information - she cheated years ago and it killed our marriage and I'm deciding if it can be saved is all one needs to say.

Then maybe date her and maybe be independent. Stipulate that either of us could see someone but if that happens he open and it's a complete deal breaker - definite divorce. Because that's what you do when you have character.

All other paths have too much baggage for me. If you stay it'll be a "gift" that's pretty sh1tty and is kind of hard to choke down for her. If you leave, maybe you're just being a dbag who has held a grudge like a Scotsman and took 18 years to pay it back. Both have too much embedded anger, resentment, and are crappy parting gifts.

But then you have my background - what do I know about this?



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post #71 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-17-2017, 11:35 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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Thank you for your suggestions. We've discussed doing something similar to this, even to completely divorce and try to start over. We've even discussed how to split stuff up and she's been way more than fair to me in that regard. We do still have a kid at home, she's attending community college in a 2+2 program. She will likely be going away to school this fall. We have some space now, but not enough to do the in house separation. Our kids have no idea about any of this. We could possibly split this fall and try to reconnect like you mention without exposing this completely to everyone.

Before the A, I thought our sex life was awesome. I think she would agree. It was intimate, connected, varied, frequent, playful, satisfying, and we both initiated - no complaints from me. Post A it changed. Mind movies, disgust, anger, and loss of trust, no vulnerability, and no emotional connection didn't lead to passionate sex. For me anyway. It's really a complicated mess with a minefield full of issues. We do have sex though. We always have.

OP – I have never experienced marital infidelity. I wonder if I am even qualified to post here since I have a wonderful wife of over 40 years who has been nothing but a beautiful delight. But…

I have great experience with business infidelity. I am a lawyer. Many years ago a much trusted partner so mismanaged our firm and diverted resources to himself to pay for an extravagant lifestyle, it destroyed our law firm. His actions reduced us from being “well off” people to flirting on the edge of bankruptcy. It took hard work to keep the firm afloat and keep all our employees paid. But more importantly it stole my time from me. We are finite beings with a limited amount of time thus if someone steals our time from us… well… it makes it very difficult, hurtful and painful.
To his credit my old partner lived the rest of his life trying to make it up to us. He lived at almost a poverty level trying to pay us all back. We were smart enough and savvy enough to remake what we lost and we did accept the financial repayments he made. But quite frankly he could never repay us for our time.

Fleek I think this is what probably digs at you the most. Your wife can never repay you for your lost time. Nearly a third of your life has been stolen from you. That’s a deep hurt. She’s trying desperately to repay you but she can never do it.

I finally came to a point in my life where I understood the Christian concept of Grace. Grace is not “religion”. I hate empty religion but I do love Grace. Grace is simply recognizing that a person can’t pay you back no matter what they do or how hard they work but you release them from that debt. When I finally came to this understanding I released my old partner from stealing my time. When I did it seemed that all past hurts seemed to diffuse and I found myself in a much more peaceful place. Please understand that I did not release him from repaying financial obligations but I did forgive him for stealing my time. We still remained great friends after this. I could connect with him on a new level. Sadly for him he died of a massive heart attack six years later. Mainly because he worked himself to death trying to make it up to all of us.

Fleek try to forgive your wife for stealing your time. Try to understand the wonderful concept of Grace and the peace it can bring you. Please understand that this has nothing to do with reconciliation or divorce. You can opt for either alternative but you can do it from a much more peaceful and loving place.
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post #72 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 08:05 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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I'm having a hard time understanding how it's ok for you to throw her affair in her face when you cheated too.

I can understand revenge affairs but the problem is that you lose your moral high ground. If you're going to engage in one it should really be an ok now we're even type thing.

I get that she had hers first, but would you not me throwing it in her face if it had been a ONS like yours?

If you're going to continue to stew over it when you had your own then yes, you are wasting your time.
Agreed. OP and his wife have had one of those long, dysfunctional marriages that should have ended long ago, but they kept it going because of kids and probably because they felt they had no other options. They have behaved abominably towards each other. Now here he is...miserable, hardened and full of regret and bitterness.

I hate it when I see people get to this state. And still, he is too scared to end this toxic relationship and move on to a happier life, simply because he is afraid to move out of his comfort zone.
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post #73 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 08:10 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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Thank you for your suggestions. We've discussed doing something similar to this, even to completely divorce and try to start over.
No...

Just NO. Your marriage is toxic. When a marriage gets to a point where there is just too much unresolved bitterness, animosity and resentment it is time to stick a fork in it and go your separate ways.

It does not mean you cannot continue to be good co-parents. And...if you divorce in the right way, showing respect towards one another that you never showed in the marriage, you might down the road even become friends again. It has been known to happen.
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post #74 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 09:53 AM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

The biggest tragedy here is that the kids have likely grown up learning some terrible things about what a marriage should be.

Virginia: "Why can't you kids leave well enough alone? Everything was fine until you started digging around."

Burt: "You sound like a Scooby Doo villain."
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post #75 of 83 (permalink) Old 02-21-2017, 02:57 PM
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Re: WW Posted on Another Site. Not Sure How to Proceed

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Before the A, I thought our sex life was awesome. I think she would agree. It was intimate, connected, varied, frequent, playful, satisfying, and we both initiated - no complaints from me. Post A it changed. Mind movies, disgust, anger, and loss of trust, no vulnerability, and no emotional connection didn't lead to passionate sex. For me anyway. It's really a complicated mess with a minefield full of issues. We do have sex though. We always have.
Why are you still debating all of this with yourself? Is this how you want to live? The only complicated part of this is that you are afraid of changing the comfort level of the life you have grown accustomed to. Some call it "the inertia of life". Change is scary because, well, it means things will be different. Now, do you think you can face the world without your wife and make an new life for yourself? At your age you would be a fool to keep trudging forward on this death-march.
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