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post #31 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 02:47 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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Why do you think the bolded, Ella?

Why "should" he have been damaged by what you did? And why irreparably?
Because it would seem every other betrayed spouse I've come across has been damaged, if not irreparably, then at least permanently. Statistically speaking, it's a miracle my husband wasn't hurt more.


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post #32 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 02:54 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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Because it would seem every other betrayed spouse I've come across has been damaged, if not irreparably, then at least permanently. Statistically speaking, it's a miracle my husband wasn't hurt more.
I don't think he gives away his power as easily as some, Ella. If he were emotionally dependent on you, he may have reacted more like other betrayed spouses you have read about.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #33 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 02:57 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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And to that I have no defense. I never have. I will say as I have been saying, that the part of my Affair where I flirted with the other man and fell for him, before the abuse started, was entirely, fully, and 100% my fault and my responsibility. It was selfish and short-sighted, and I have no defense. I broke my vows to the man I promised to love. My actions could have and should have damaged him irreparably. I am phenomenally lucky I didn't cause him more pain than I did. It is still my duty and my honor to help him deal with whatever triggers he may have stemming from it for the rest of our lives.
Again this goes back to what I have said about separating the two. You don't do that, you bring up the rightfully sympathetic part of your story and always attach that to your cheating. They have nothing to do with each other, other then one action was brought on the other. You cheated and betrayed your spouse. Full stop. A man abused you full stop.

The cheating was a active choice you made. The other was a result of something someone did to you.

Until you start to think of your own cheating without muddling the waters with what this man did to you you will never really fully understand or heal from it. So when you talk about all the people who were helping you, they were NOT helping because the had sympathy for you as a cheater. They were helping you because of the abuse you suffered. If you had not been abused you would have gotten a lot less sympathy, probably none, and truthfully you don't deserve a lot of sympathy in that instance.

Again none of the compassion you got was because people felt bad for you because you decided to betray your spouse. Again until you understand that both things, your abuse, and your cheating are not he same thing you will not get it. Almost all of your healing you talk about here is healing from abuse. I would contend that you are still trying to understand and heal from the idea that you did such an awful thing to the person who loves you. You haven't dealt with that because you haven't separated it.

So most of the pain and the healing you are talking about even in this thread are really not about being a WS or infidelity. The pain you talk about here are pains from abuse, because you equate the two you equate the healing as well. But you are wrong to equate the two. This is where the disconnect is for you and the posters. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Compartmentalize the pain you feel and ONLY feel for cheating on your husband. That is similar to what any cheater feels. Do you believe you deserve to pamper yourself for that pain, or do you believe that you deserve all the pain you feel for doing that? When you think of what you did do you think you need to take time for yourself? Or do you think you should work really hard because of the wrong you did?

Last edited by sokillme; 02-19-2017 at 03:03 PM.
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post #34 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 05:04 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

Let's see if we can find other real life situations to compare Ella's to:

1. Marla Maples is very publicly chasing Ivana for her forgiveness. she has been publicly quoted saying that it's for Ivana's sake that she is asking for it: Donald Trump Ex Marla Maples Hopes Ivana Trump Can Forgive Affair Scandal

Is Marla right?


2. At the end of WWII as Soviet forces were making their way east, it's no secret the particularly crude way they treated the Germans........ no Geneva convention principles applied here. Germans know not to b.itch and moan about that.

do you think the Germans self-effacing attitude here is warranted?

Anybody else have some examples to help Ella?
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post #35 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 05:10 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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I don't think he gives away his power as easily as some, Ella. If he were emotionally dependent on you, he may have reacted more like other betrayed spouses you have read about.
This is an excellent post.Op maybe he just isn't that bothered and your problems may not be as much in the past as you think.
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post #36 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 05:14 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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Let's see if we can find other real life situations to compare Ella's to:

1. Marla Maples is very publicly chasing Ivana for her forgiveness. she has been publicly quoted saying that it's for Ivana's sake that she is asking for it: Donald Trump Ex Marla Maples Hopes Ivana Trump Can Forgive Affair Scandal

Is Marla right?


2. At the end of WWII as Soviet forces were making their way east, it's no secret the particularly crude way they treated the Germans........ no Geneva convention principles applied here. Germans know not to b.itch and moan about that.

do you think the Germans self-effacing attitude here is warranted?

Anybody else have some examples to help Ella?
If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany, implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, and that I'm deserving of my pain?

There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.

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post #37 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 05:18 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany, implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, and that I'm deserving of my pain?

There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.
My own beliefs are quite the opposite. But I have put the question to you.

Also, what's your opinion of Marla Maples?
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post #38 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 05:21 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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Again this goes back to what I have said about separating the two. You don't do that, you bring up the rightfully sympathetic part of your story and always attach that to your cheating. They have nothing to do with each other, other then one action was brought on the other. You cheated and betrayed your spouse. Full stop. A man abused you full stop.

The cheating was a active choice you made. The other was a result of something someone did to you.

Until you start to think of your own cheating without muddling the waters with what this man did to you you will never really fully understand or heal from it. So when you talk about all the people who were helping you, they were NOT helping because the had sympathy for you as a cheater. They were helping you because of the abuse you suffered. If you had not been abused you would have gotten a lot less sympathy, probably none, and truthfully you don't deserve a lot of sympathy in that instance.

Again none of the compassion you got was because people felt bad for you because you decided to betray your spouse. Again until you understand that both things, your abuse, and your cheating are not he same thing you will not get it. Almost all of your healing you talk about here is healing from abuse. I would contend that you are still trying to understand and heal from the idea that you did such an awful thing to the person who loves you. You haven't dealt with that because you haven't separated it.

So most of the pain and the healing you are talking about even in this thread are really not about being a WS or infidelity. The pain you talk about here are pains from abuse, because you equate the two you equate the healing as well. But you are wrong to equate the two. This is where the disconnect is for you and the posters. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME THING.

Compartmentalize the pain you feel and ONLY feel for cheating on your husband. That is similar to what any cheater feels. Do you believe you deserve to pamper yourself for that pain, or do you believe that you deserve all the pain you feel for doing that? When you think of what you did do you think you need to take time for yourself? Or do you think you should work really hard because of the wrong you did?
I only mention the OM's abuse so that I can make a distinction between the part I am willing to own and the part that I will not own. I fear if I didn't add the asterisk-marked exemption for the nonconsensual parts of the relationship, I would be wrongly talking the blame for my own abuse. I will not allow myself to become one of those victims who believes it is her fault, for that would take away my power to resist such horrible men in the future.

Also, as to the cheating which I am willing to own, seriously, can't I take time to nurture myself and THEN come out and work like the dickens to redeem myself? Or can't I work to repair my marriage and then heal myself when the day's work is done? Or can't I work on myself AND heal myself in the same moment? Reading "how to help your spouse" and approaching it gently and mindfully and compassionately might be killing both birds with one stone.

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post #39 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 05:24 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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My own beliefs are quite the opposite. But I have put the question to you.

Also, what's your opinion of Marla Maples?
I have not read anything of their story, so I wouldn't know, but I hope there is forgiveness and healing all around.

And no, one ill turn does not deserve another. Whether in war or love, one must kill abuse and wrongdoing with mercy, not cruelty or bitterness

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post #40 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 06:07 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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This is an excellent post.Op maybe he just isn't that bothered and your problems may not be as much in the past as you think.
I think your problems are entirely in the past, Ella. I don't think your husband is hanging onto any of this.


One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #41 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 06:12 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany, implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, and that I'm deserving of my pain?

There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.
There is probably too much bitterness in the betrayeds to have any real dialogue, Ella.

Please do not internalize their pain. It does not belong to you.

One of the deepest feminine pleasures is when a man stands full, present, and unreactive in the midst of his woman's emotional storms. When he stays present with her, and loves her through the layers of wildness and closure, then she feels his trustability, and she can relax. -- David Deida, The Way of the Superior Man
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post #42 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 07:30 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

From both therapy and the book "Not just Friends" - there is the discussion about the grieving process from the wayward. Its still crappy to the WS, but understandable - human feelings are also involved.

For those trying for real R, that process will take a while. Hence, from the time we went from therapy, talk at a park, to my wife's place was her pulling the trigger to tell the POSOM to no more contact. The other times, I had tried to dictate the NC process and rules (way too early). But with the past experience, here and the book (She hadn't read "Not Just Friends" yet) - I put it on her, to SEE how *SHE* was going to do it, to determine if she was being legit or full of crap. I did not tell her what to say or what to write (she did show me the text before sending it) and when he called, she asked me first before answering. It was loud enough for me to hear his words. She deleted him, blocked him, then went through her phone to delete his pics on FB and memory. (I actually have his photos because I backed up her previous phone)

She still had some tears when she was finishing up the deleting process... but she told me she was angry for having them. Just has I still think about the affair, so does she - as we had talked about it in detail during and after our last few therapy sessions. Random thoughts that come and go. She still apologizes for her actions today as some things trigger her.

Of course, there are the WS that never R. As we all know, very very few ever become real relationships. Waywards go cold or crazy or vindictive or depressed when the dust settles. I forgot if it was here or elsewhere, a wayward wife got divorced and involved with druggie guy(s). He got the kids. Some time later, she realized her mistake and tried to come back "home", but he was done with her. So she went back to the OM (if I remember right) about the 1 year after D-Day, she along with OM died in a car crash - she was poor, bad health and unwanted.

Supporting those who want to divorce or reconcile. Not every relationship is the same.
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post #43 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 07:32 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

do you think your husbands non reaction to your affair in some way means he doesn't love you? I can't understand why you have reconciled but continue to make threads about understanding your position. He may at some point break down and terminate the marriage or he may never have another thought about it. But you are definitely giving this too much headspace, time and emotion. He forgave you, you are defiantly lucky he did for whatever his reason may be. But you have to accept that decision and just move on in my opinion.
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post #44 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 07:37 PM
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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do you think your husbands non reaction to your affair in some way means he doesn't love you? I can't understand why you have reconciled but continue to make threads about understanding your position. He may at some point break down and terminate the marriage or he may never have another thought about it. But you are definitely giving this too much headspace, time and emotion. He forgave you, you are defiantly lucky he did for whatever his reason may be. But you have to accept that decision and just move on in my opinion.

Ella, are looking for certain words from your husband or from TAM before you can move on?
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post #45 of 243 (permalink) Old 02-19-2017, 07:46 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

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Ella, are looking for certain words from your husband or from TAM before you can move on?
I don't know. I don't know if certain things can be moved on from. The only other traumatic event in my life took ten years- almost to the day- to get over. I would have to stop believing in any part of myself, that I was at fault for the abuse I received. I would have to believe in my own goodness and innocence, and I do not, deep down. I would have to believe that I am worthy of all the empathy anyone could ever give me, and that I deserve no one's scorn. I would have to stop remembering the 10th of October, 2014 as the day it all fell apart. I would have to get his voice out of my ears. I would have to get the voices of my mother's friends, of my friends, out of my ears. The accusations and declarations of worthlessness, those would have to be rendered meaningless and obsolete forever.

All of it would have to be gone. Not just the abuse, but also the infidelity. That for which I blame myself. I would have to somehow be absolved of it forever. That does not, from where I am standing, seem possible. So the best I can do, for now, is to give other wayward spouses the absolution which I cannot give to myself.

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