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Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion

22K views 242 replies 28 participants last post by  jld 
#1 · (Edited)
Continuing on from the other 14-page thread which was entitled, "What advice would you give to a wayward/betrayed spouse and why?", this thread is just the same, only with a more fitting title.

If you haven't read the thread, it was basically my argument that even wayward spouses, being that they are human beings, have a fundamental right to self-care and self-compassion, and that such would actually enable them to be better healers to their betrayed spouses when they needed to be. The counterargument was that any talk of the wayward spouse feeling anything but self-hatred was a knife in the back of the betrayed.

Anyway, the point is that I'm generally able to see both sides of almost any story, and have compassion for most people. Even if I dislike them or find their actions distasteful or immoral, I can usually understand to some extent what made them feel led to act that way. This does not seem to go over well when I extend this compassion to wayward spouses. I am of the sort of mind that I could go over and put my arms around the gutted, hysterically weeping betrayed spouse, offer them chamomile tea and my handkerchief, and tell them that their spouse's infidelity was cruel and thoughtless and that they have every right to be upset for as long as they need. Then immediately after, I can also comfort the wayward spouse, offer them the same crying shoulder, and tell them I know it's hard seeing the unintended consequences of their actions.

I would make for a very poor prosecutor, because were I to be at a murder trial, I could comfort the victim and the perpetrator in the same hour! "I know you didn't mean to kill him", I would say, to the shock and horror of the bereaved.

I honestly do not believe that I fail to see how horrible infidelity can be to the betrayed spouse. I really don't. I've read so many personal accounts and seen the tears of disbelief on my own husband's face. I'm sure it can seem like I'm just flippant or callous when I'm sitting here showing "sympathy to the devil" as it were.

But the devil used to be God's favourite angel, and there are so many people crying in courtrooms, be they murder trials or divorce

I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely why.
If I may paste the last thing I wrote on the other thread:

How exactly is sympathy akin to invalidation? They are the opposite! One must first understand someone's pain, thereby validating it at least in some aspect, before they can show sympathy. And I don't doubt @sokillme would say the very same thing to my husband as he has said to other betrayed spouses here- that is, to leave me as fast as possible. Perhaps, sokillme, you should examine why it is that you can extend mercy to a wayward spouse after you get to know them, but not before.
Let us continue.
 
#2 · (Edited)
Fitting title.

Sympathy For The Devil
The Rolling Stones

Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a man's soul to waste

And I was 'round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game

I stuck around St. Petersburg
When I saw it was a time for a change
Killed the czar and his ministers
Anastasia screamed in vain

I rode a tank
Held a general's rank
When the blitzkrieg raged
And the bodies stank

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name, oh yeah
Ah, what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo)

I watched with glee
While your kings and queens
Fought for ten decades
For the gods they made
(Woo woo, woo woo)

I shouted out,
Who killed the Kennedys?
When after all
It was you and me
(Who who, who who)

Let me please introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay
(Woo woo, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
(Who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, oh yeah, get down, baby
(Who who, who who)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, oh yeah
But what's confusing you
Is just the nature of my game
(Woo woo, who who)

Just as every cop is a criminal
And all the sinners saints
As heads is tails
Just call me Lucifer
'Cause I'm in need of some restraint
(Who who, who who)

So if you meet me
Have some courtesy
Have some sympathy, and some taste
(Woo woo)

Use all your well-learned politesse
Or I'll lay your soul to waste, mm yeah
(Woo woo, woo woo)

Pleased to meet you
Hope you guessed my name, mm yeah
(Who who)
But what's puzzling you
Is the nature of my game, mm mean it, get down
(Woo woo, woo woo)

Woo, who
Oh yeah, get on down
Oh yeah
Oh yeah!
(Woo woo)

Tell me baby, what's my name
Tell me honey, can ya guess my name
Tell me baby, what's my name
I tell you one time, you're to blame

Oh, who
Woo, woo
Woo, who
Woo, woo
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who

Oh, yeah
What's my name
Tell me, baby, what's my name
Tell me, sweetie, what's my name

Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Woo, who, who
Oh, yeah
Woo woo
Woo woo

Songwriters: KEITH RICHARDS, MICK JAGGER
© Abkco Music, Inc.
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: LyricFind
It's all from history. You can look up each stanza.

Sympathy for the Devil - Rolling Stones Live 1969 with the Hells Angels as concert security

Here's a high quality studio version of the song.

https://youtu.be/ZJTGaJbQu3s

Ella, only certain folks will understand the ramifications of infidelity for a betrayed spouse who has been hurt so badly they are changed for life.

You will never understand. Many betrayed don't understand other betrayed spouses.

Even if you experience being a betrayed spouse, you won't understand. It won't affect you the same. It's just a matter of who we are as individuals.

Personally, it doesn't matter what the circumstances were. I feel the same about infidelity and the unfaithful. Those who find excuses are those who can't accept responsibility for their actions. They will never feel true remorse, nor sympathy for their betrayed. They can only feel it for themselves.

Aren't you simply proving that with both of these threads?

When all choices are taken away, I will have sympathy. But then, isn't that rape? I think we can, all BS and WS, get together and say we have sympathy for rape victims.

Don't you think it's time for acceptance?
 
This post has been deleted
#7 ·
Now, I understand you're not advocating that cheaters go up to their spouses and say "Baby, I know I ripped your heart out, but I need you to focus on my pain for a moment." I understand that's not what you're advocating. But by writing your articles and starting multiple threads here now, you are doggedly trying to elevate this perspective in the hierarchy of what is important while ignoring the fact that there is potentially direct, negative consequences. To whit, most wayward spouses need help to STOP putting themselves first. And unfortunately, your advice, well-intentioned as it may be, just gives people on the fence a reason to think that maybe they're not so bad for putting themselves first YET AGAIN i.e. "Look baby, other people on the Internet think I should take care of myself first because really that's going to be good for you!" CUT TO: bewildered, hurt look on a betrayed spouses face.

And once again, I'll reiterate -- YOUR SITUATION IS DIFFERENT. Not only in how it played out but where you are in the process. You cheated. You've been forgiven, now you can deal with the hurt on your side in a healthy, safe space. That's great for you. Unfortunately, most people here, myself included, are still at step one of that trifecta. Our spouses cheated. There is no forgiveness yet. There can be no focus on healing for the perpetrator. Not yet. You're giving advice on how to stay hydrated during a marathon when most cheaters are still trying to figure out their Couch-to-5k training plan.

And that is why you're getting such a pushback. You're not qualified to instruct, and you're talking about the wrong parts of the process (at least for most people here). Can you not see that?
Very well. I do see what you're saying about being hydrated during a marathon when most are only just getting on the treadmill. Perhaps too much focus on the wayward spouse might make him think he (or she) has permission to put their wants above their spouse's needs, and that's a problem. I have tried to address this tastefully, without saying to the wayward spouse, "You can't have healing yet" because the wayward spouse probably is hurt to some degree or another by their action, even if that hurt really only amounts to longing for their AP. Would it make my words softer for the betrayed if I wrote an article, for them, too? I really see no need for that as so many authors have stepped in on their behalf and offered them much better help than I can provide.




Aaaaand I'm done. Are you a troll? Really Ella? It's really that hard for you to comprehend how someone who did the most hurtful thing possible short of maiming a person's child (and that's not hyperbole, talk to any betrayed spouse, they will tell you that this pain is far beyond the death of a parent, the loss of a coveted job, etc). Is it really hard for you to understand how someone who has been subjected to that level of pain and humilation at the hands of their spouse might not really want to hear how tough it is FOR YOU?

How they might, just maybe, not have the bandwidth to deal with yet ANOTHER one of a cheater's self-inflicted problems? Your husband must be a saint. Or, as I'm starting to wonder, maybe you just can't see beyond the end of your own nose. Which ... sounds like a cheater to me.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ... Ella, are you a duck?
No, no, you misunderstand me. I'm sorry; I should have been clearer. Let me try again.

I do very much understand how betrayed spouses are, in the first months, unable to look at their wayward spouses with empathy. That even seeing their face brings back gut-wrenching panic, nausea, terror, and grief. But as you said, it was different for me.

When I first went into hospital, it was very much "all about me" from the get-go. My weeping mother, hugging me and telling me, "Don't come out before you're better." At first I was more than willing to call a spade a spade, albeit in a very selfish way. I had an affair, and I'm moving out to be with my lover. Let me go so I can be with him. My husband will be better off divorced. But as I started to talk to these doctors about why I was starving myself, changing my hairstyle, and having constant panic attacks, they immediately rushed in with sympathy and compassion. "Don't you understand that he did this to you? He's not your lover, he's your abuser. We're here to help you." They all had a battered woman narrative, and to them I fit that role.

The doctors helped me see who my OM really was. When people came home and accused me- correctly- of cheating on my husband- I still literally broke down into inconsolable wailing, even months later. The shame I felt was almost unbearable. It would be another two years, nearly, before I could even begin to confront that shame, let alone face up to the consequences of my actions and try to make amends.

My experience of being a victim of abuse and a wayward spouse made me wonder how much these other wayward spouses must suffer because no one cared for them in the same way that a small legion of doctors and psychologists cared for me. True, they were never abused, but they too must hurt. They too must feel assailed by guilt and shame and self-loathing, perhaps even more than me because they never had parts of their affair that were non-consensual. So, as there was no literature for them that didn't further fan the fires of their shame, I wrote my own.

Of course I can see how it might hurt the betrayed spouse to have to see someone having sympathy for their abusers. But I also remember the massive outpouring of support and help I got for my own affair, and feel pangs of sympathy that no such help is offered to other wayward spouses.
 
#3 ·
I think that you are having trouble getting these answers because we are all human beings. We each feel differently to a situation, and what may bother you not bother me. Infidelity is a complex situation with so many variables and nuances for both spouses to consider. Again, what may bother you might not bother me. You may feel the lies and deception were the worst, and I may feel that the time and emotions spent on the affair bothered me. You may feel guilty after you've had sex with OM/OW, but where was that guilt before you had sex? Did your spouse ever come into your mind? If your spouse did come into your mind, how could you be so cruel to keep going? Why not stop?

Obviously I'm a betrayed spouse, and my wife's affair produced twin boys. If you could honestly show compassion to my wife AND THE OM, then you are a far better person then I. Not that I'm some great person, not that I'm better then anyone else, but I just can't give compassion to OM. It was very hard for me to just not destroy my wife, but I didn't, my boys need their mom. It was when I came to know I didn't need her to survive did our reconciliation become better. You may have an issue with this, but the truth is a good marriage exists when both spouses know they could live well without each other. This shows that each spouse is independent, self confident, good self esteem, and chooses to love their spouse. This is why codependency is such a silent marriage killer, it's unhealthy.

It has taken me three years to begin to really understand infidelity. My understanding is also from the betrayeds perspective, even though I try to place myself into a WS's shoes. I'm not so good at that, my anger over seeing someone get destroyed usually takes over. However, there are many former WS's who I have so much respect for on this site. They are around, they get what they did, and there are some who just don't get it and never will. I asked my wife a question after she said she finally realized how much I love her. My question was how could you not know? Everything I did was for my family, I am fallible as much as the next person, but I also wasn't the worst husband in the world.

I've admitted to bringing several toxic issues into my marriage. I have worked very hard to correct these issues, and I will now be a better spouse to my wife or someone else. I have work to do as does my wife, when we stop doing the work is when I pull the plug. If she stops I'm done, if I stop I obviously can't continue to move forward, so then I'm done. It has to be a joint effort on both spouses parts or it won't work.
 
#27 ·
If you could honestly show compassion to my wife AND THE OM, then you are a far better person then I. Not that I'm some great person, not that I'm better then anyone else, but I just can't give compassion to OM.
This leads to another great philosophical discussion does everyone deserve compassion? From the Christian stand point the answer is no. We all deserve none. Compassion is seen as a gift that is undeserved but given anyway.
 
#4 ·
Aaaaand I'm done. Are you a troll? Really Ella? It's really that hard for you to comprehend how someone who did the most hurtful thing possible short of maiming a person's child (and that's not hyperbole, talk to any betrayed spouse, they will tell you that this pain is far beyond the death of a parent, the loss of a coveted job, etc). Is it really hard for you to understand how someone who has been subjected to that level of pain and humilation at the hands of their spouse might not really want to hear how tough it is FOR YOU?

How they might, just maybe, not have the bandwidth to deal with yet ANOTHER one of a cheater's self-inflicted problems? Your husband must be a saint. Or, as I'm starting to wonder, maybe you just can't see beyond the end of your own nose. Which ... sounds like a cheater to me.

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ... Ella, are you a duck?
She is a former wayward. That being said, even many former wayward spouses, at her supposed stage of infidelity recovery, can at least accept that they don't understand, and offer empathy, rather than continually attempt to justify and prove that there are conditions under which infidelity is the best choice out of a number of choices.

Seems like there is a relationship between their reactions to what they have done and it's impact with, psychopathy and some Asperger's, Narcissism and maybe other cluster B personality disorders when thinking about some wayward spouses.

Note: I'm not a doctor and that last paragraph should be taken as an observance, not as a diagnosis or a disparaging remark to all wayward spouses. Look these up and you will be surprised how they overlap and relate to this discussion.

No, I'm not accusing you, Elle, of having any of these. I'm just trying to understand how some wayward spouses might find it tough to understand.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/psychopathy

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/aspergers-syndrome

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...istic-personality-disorder-and-the-antisocial

https://www.psychologytoday.com/basics/personality-disorders
 
#10 ·
She is a former wayward.
Even if I hadn't known this fact already I certainly would've been clued in by the avalanche of rationalizations for why people should feel sorry for her and others like her.

But honestly I think Ella is just posting in the wrong forum. There's a subreddit over on Reddit devoted to adulterery: tips and moral support, etc now that ******* is shut down -- that might be more her target audience.
 
#5 ·
I've been cheated on and damaged during two relationships.

looking back after a few years, even though there is still some pain and perplextion,
I can feel sympathy for my ex's. Yes they are human beings and worthy of sympathy.

They dont get it. They wont change. They live in a different world than me.
I still hurt a bit from time to time. But I have no ill will towards them.
they gave me good things and bad. One gave me the best times in my life.
and also some of the worst.
the other was a train wreck, but I still wish her well from afar.

what is it exactly you are trying to tell us?
 
#6 ·
If you haven't read the thread, it was basically my argument that even wayward spouses, being that they are human beings, have a fundamental right to self-care and self-compassion, and that such would actually enable them to be better healers to their betrayed spouses when they needed to be.

I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely why.
If I may paste the last thing I wrote on the other thread:


How exactly is sympathy akin to invalidation? They are the opposite! One must first understand someone's pain, thereby validating it at least in some aspect, before they can show sympathy. And I don't doubt @sokillme would say the very same thing to my husband as he has said to other betrayed spouses here- that is, to leave me as fast as possible. Perhaps, sokillme, you should examine why it is that you can extend mercy to a wayward spouse after you get to know them, but not before.
So, jorgene, Ella believes a betrayed spouse must experience the pain that the wayward went through, before they can understand the reasons for the infidelity.

I don't doubt that in principle.

She also doesn't believe that infidelity is a good enough reason for a betrayed spouse to divorce. She seems to think that it is important to understand what was bothering the wayward so much, they just had to sleep with another person.

There was no choice because it was the only thing shocking enough to cause some of these heartless betrayed spouses to change their ways and start to treat their wives like they've always wanted to be treated.

If the betrayed divorces the wayward, it will all have been for nothing, since the betrayal was simply to punish the betrayed, not cause them enough pain to divorce.

How insensitive that seems. The betrayed forced the wayward into doing something rash to make them do what they want. Why can't the betrayed just realize that and come around.

I mean, the wayward has put so so much into the marriage, and the retraining of her husband, it doesn't seem fair to throw it all away.

You just have to come at them from a different angle to get the betrayed to suffer correctly. They must be shown to have been a turd in actions to a saint, or martyr, whichever you prefer. The poor martyr wayward has been through hell.

Now, explain to me how the wayward was treated by the OM/OW?

Pretty darn good, right?

Keep eatin' the soylent green. It's good for you, jorgene. Nevermind it's crackers made from the dead. It's nutritious!
 
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#13 · (Edited)
I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely why.
.

Ella... you either get it or don't get it. It's that simple. And I don't want to be rude, but there are people that are fundamentally challenged on empathy, and feeling certain emotions for others. Narcissists is one example. Sociopaths, even asperguers. My husband is like this... there is a piece missing from his brain that allows him to FEEL a certain way. He gets it from an intellectual point of view, but he doesn't FEEL it. He doesn't get it and he never will. You can't teach people to feel, they do or they don't.

I find it to be very strange that you want to keep the affair alive. That you want to keep the conversation going. I think that there is something fundamentally wrong with you, that you let this affair define you so much, and how you continue to let it be such a big part of your life. Your husband is over it. Why aren't you? You have to understand that this says something about who you are.
 
#15 ·
I find it to be very strange that you want to keep the affair alive. That you want to keep the conversation going. I think that there is fundamentally wrong with you, that you let this affair define you so much, and how you continue to let it be such a big part of your life. Your husband is over it. Why aren't you? You have to understand that this says something about who you are.
In my day-to-day life, outside of the forum, the OM is seldom a thought in my head. Even my nightmares aren't about him anymore, mostly. I originally came here because I wanted to talk about my husband and all the lovely things he does for me, and all the things I plan and orchestrate for him. I wanted to talk about my hopes for the future and worries that he might someday leave. But then I saw the CWI forum and found all these WS who are now where I was back in 2014-2015 with my healing. And they just got insulted and shamed, and I want to make sure other waywards know there's someone who hears them and wishes them comfort and peace. Nothing more. The affair and its aftermath are no longer the massive part of my life they once were, but rather like a plague survivor who has regained her life, I want to stay at the emotional bedsides of the sick and suffering, and offer support to the people for whom many here only feel disdain. That's so much more important that cataloging my happiness and my minor trials.
 
#16 ·
Ella, you are a human being, flaws in all, and will never be perfect. That holds true for me also, and everyone posting here at TAM. Nobody is perfect. Being a betrayed spouse, I can't tell you how badly I was hurt. I can tell you I tried to kill myself, pause right here, do you understand what it really feels like to see death as the only answer? I had never thought of suicide before, never had I felt as hopeless as I did that night. Just me and my weapon at the kitchen table that night. Alas I'm still here, but for months afterward I still wished I wasn't here. Death would have ended my pain, death was my way of dealing with the devastation. Everything else was dead, no big deal if I die too. Have you ever been in that mindset that has you at such a low point? I don't blame my wife entirely, I coped in the worst way possible, and I'm now a much different man.

Wayward spouses are still human beings also. I can only really speak about my wife, as I have seen what she goes through and how she copes. I know for a fact my wife would give her life if it meant she didn't hurt me with her affair. But what's done is done, and we can't change anything. Many here feel my wife is a vile and cruel person, what she did was vile and cruel. That doesn't mean she can't change, that doesn't mean she can't have value and worth. My wife has worked very hard to prove she is worthy and valuable. The posters here still may not accept that, they have their opinion and I'm ok with that. I don't protect her here, if I'm here ten years from now maybe I will. It's still to soon for me to protect her. That doesn't make her efforts any less, it doesn't mean she won't have worth and value. It doesn't mean she won't be respected down the road. Nobody knows what she will be in ten years including me.

I believe people can change, some who cheat can and do change, then again some don't. Some understand and get what they have done, some don't. It comes down to a persons core belief, that they accept their flaws, work on them and become a better person. Some can self reflect, make the changes and become better people. Our MC had to tell my wife on numerous occasions that what she chose to do was bad, but she can be a good person and is. Honestly the first time our therapist said this I thought she was crazy, nope, she was correct.

Everyone has the potential to do good or bad. My wife chose to make the worst decision of her life, and that decision had life altering effects. What she is doing now is also life altering, but now it's in a positive way. If you didn't know my wife had a six month long affair with her co-worker. That affair produced twin boys, and I found out the paternity two days after d-day. D-day was two and a half years after the affair stopped. My wife ended the affair.

Forgiving yourself is necessary, you need to so you can move forward in healing. If you don't forgive yourself you can't heal, not healing means you aren't making all of the necessary changes to yourself. Constantly beating yourself up is not healthy either, learn from you choices and make better choices in the future. But that means you need to move forward without forgetting.
 
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#17 ·
You remind me of those men that were jocks in high school that always reminisce about the big game even though it was 20 years ago. Like they peaked in high school and it was the best time of their life so they always talk about it, and they look for ways to randomly bring it up.

Ella it's over. Let it go. Stop finding excuses and ways to bring it back to life. You say you came on this forum because you wanted to talk about your husband. No you didn't. Most of your posts are about your affair that happened years ago. Didn't you get kicked off a forum for keep talking about the affair?

Leave it in the past. It's over. I don't know why you get satisfaction talking about it so much and why you feel the need to continue to talk about it.

I am not going to enable this problem by continuing to participate in it. I wish you luck in your relationship and in your life :)
 
#19 ·
No, I got banned from SurvivingInfidelity for saying that a BS was being cruel by wishing the OW would commit suicide. I got banned from Loveshack because people believed I was lying about marrying a 28-year-old man at 18. And as to CWI, please read my post again. I'll re-post it here.

The affair and its aftermath are no longer the massive part of my life they once were, but rather like a plague survivor who has regained her life, I want to stay at the emotional bedsides of the sick and suffering, and offer support to the people for whom many here only feel disdain. That's so much more important than cataloging my happiness and my minor trials.
 
#18 ·
If we cannot have compassion (eventually) for a remorseful WS, then we are no better, and deserve none either. Compassion and forgiveness are the hallmarks of all religions and major philosophies, and is a trait that makes us fully human.
 
#22 ·
If you haven't read the thread, it was basically my argument that even wayward spouses, being that they are human beings, have a fundamental right to self-care and self-compassion, and that such would actually enable them to be better healers to their betrayed spouses when they needed to be. The counterargument was that any talk of the wayward spouse feeling anything but self-hatred was a knife in the back of the betrayed.
I do not think of self-care and self-compassion as "rights". IMO, they are fundamental obligations.

People who do not engage in self-care and self-compassion render themselves incapable of offering care and compassion to others.
 
#26 · (Edited)
I am beginning to understand that, yes, the wayward spouse's pain might further trigger a betrayed spouse, but on an emotional level, I have yet to discover precisely why.
If I may paste the last thing I wrote on the other thread
Most of us see that pain you talk about is very basic consequences for very bad actions. This being the very basic step in understanding the magnitude of what they have done. It's actually a very good and healthy thing for a WS to experience. No one should attempt to minimize it, at least at first. They need to learn from it. Just like the pain you feel when you put your hand in a fire is a good thing. It's a warning to you. If a child did this and you could some how shut off the pain center in it's brain, it may lead the child to do the exact thing again and in the process lose it's hand. Pain is not necessarily a bad thing. In many cases it is good and healthy, as is shame. Oh how much our society would benefit from more shame in it.

The trigger is because the pain is disproportionate (much smaller) to the pain the BS suffers, and the BS is innocent. Plus almost all WS are selfish and self-centered, that doesn't change without years of work. So almost all of the time part of the pain is the WS yearning to return to the sins that have cause irreparable damage to the BS. The feeling is. You are yearning for the very thing that has almost killed me and changed my life for the worse? What kind of monster are you? You are supposed to love and protect me!

I would reminder you Ella that the pain you feel when thinking about the trauma of the stuff the other man did to you is similar to what most BS feel about the infidelity they suffered. Same types of lies same types of manipulation. If they try to R they are trying to R with the very person who caused them such pain. Seeing their WS sad because they can't continue to behave in the very same manner that caused such pain is going to trigger most. Your husband kind of missed a lot of that.
 
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#34 ·
Let's see if we can find other real life situations to compare Ella's to:

1. Marla Maples is very publicly chasing Ivana for her forgiveness. she has been publicly quoted saying that it's for Ivana's sake that she is asking for it: Donald Trump Ex Marla Maples Hopes Ivana Trump Can Forgive Affair Scandal

Is Marla right?


2. At the end of WWII as Soviet forces were making their way east, it's no secret the particularly crude way they treated the Germans........ no Geneva convention principles applied here. Germans know not to b.itch and moan about that.

do you think the Germans self-effacing attitude here is warranted?

Anybody else have some examples to help Ella?
 
#36 ·
If I am not mistaken, you're comparing my actions to that of post-nazi Germany, implying in one fell swoop that war crimes are permissible if the other side has committed worse war crimes, and that I'm deserving of my pain?

There are no words that could encroach upon the dumbfounded befuddlement I currently feel.
 
#42 ·
From both therapy and the book "Not just Friends" - there is the discussion about the grieving process from the wayward. Its still crappy to the WS, but understandable - human feelings are also involved.

For those trying for real R, that process will take a while. Hence, from the time we went from therapy, talk at a park, to my wife's place was her pulling the trigger to tell the POSOM to no more contact. The other times, I had tried to dictate the NC process and rules (way too early). But with the past experience, here and the book (She hadn't read "Not Just Friends" yet) - I put it on her, to SEE how *SHE* was going to do it, to determine if she was being legit or full of crap. I did not tell her what to say or what to write (she did show me the text before sending it) and when he called, she asked me first before answering. It was loud enough for me to hear his words. She deleted him, blocked him, then went through her phone to delete his pics on FB and memory. (I actually have his photos because I backed up her previous phone)

She still had some tears when she was finishing up the deleting process... but she told me she was angry for having them. Just has I still think about the affair, so does she - as we had talked about it in detail during and after our last few therapy sessions. Random thoughts that come and go. She still apologizes for her actions today as some things trigger her.

Of course, there are the WS that never R. As we all know, very very few ever become real relationships. Waywards go cold or crazy or vindictive or depressed when the dust settles. I forgot if it was here or elsewhere, a wayward wife got divorced and involved with druggie guy(s). He got the kids. Some time later, she realized her mistake and tried to come back "home", but he was done with her. So she went back to the OM (if I remember right) about the 1 year after D-Day, she along with OM died in a car crash - she was poor, bad health and unwanted.
 
#47 ·
Unless she really fixes what is broken in her she is vulnerable to do it again, and you are taking a big risk. This place and others are riddled with people whose WS apologized did all the right things and in 5 or 10 years later they were right back where you were in even worse shape. She needs a lot more the being sorry to change. WS are always a greater risk because they lack character. Character takes a lifetime to build and a lifetime to change.
 
#43 ·
do you think your husbands non reaction to your affair in some way means he doesn't love you? I can't understand why you have reconciled but continue to make threads about understanding your position. He may at some point break down and terminate the marriage or he may never have another thought about it. But you are definitely giving this too much headspace, time and emotion. He forgave you, you are defiantly lucky he did for whatever his reason may be. But you have to accept that decision and just move on in my opinion.
 
#46 · (Edited)
My ww spending time away when I kicked her out, time for her to think and deciding to do her own research (this was before seeing the MC to start on R), the fog was lifting. (And I'll admit there were a few who PM'd me to retain a bit of hope)
She told me she was starting to see the fantasy. (It was a fun fantasy for her, but not for me of course.) She was talking to family as well and was becoming depressed with her life choices about 10 days before she asked for R. She was figuring out on her own that I was right about the fog and her actions - which she thought were original. Deep in the affair, she had said "We have a special connection you cannot understand!" between her and the OM. The reality that was becoming clear was that the OM wasn't true love, just sex and chemicals. That I was making more efforts to take care of her and our son, long before and currently than any way the OM was. Actual love. The more she read about the fog on her own, the more she saw the truth. That I wasn't the bad guy she thought I was. I still had my issues and still improving myself.

I still hope for the best for us. Things are different, still. But by all means, the relationship I have with HER today is still healthier and more respectful than others I see around me in RL or online. She still beats herself up sometimes and I support helping her in the NOW and for the future.
 
#49 ·
I am aware of that. We also see people who rug-sweep for decades and stay together in a bad marriage... We have talked about this. I have run this through my head. I've asked few a number of times in the beginning of this that she has to be ALL IN. Not just for our son, either. I know myself in that I also know that I would never trust my wife or ANY future woman 100%. I'll say this, her drinking was a major problem in our relationship. And all these months of her not being drunk on a daily basis is WONDERFUL. She is very clear minded compared to before. Her moods are very stable compared to before since she's not having drug interactions anymore. So yeah, honestly our relationship is healthier now than before the affair, sucks how we got there but it's easily true. Before the affair - I was considering break up options - had things continued on the path (and let's say there was no affair) then she'd likely be dead or we would have broken up by now anyway. Twice before the affair and 3 times during - her drinking and medicated use had put her in danger, with some ER visits in that she could have died if I wasn't there to help and solve these issues. I didn't know the full scope of the problem back then.

Being clear-minded, her character is a lot better. She is a much better mom to our child than she was before, more education driven, more protective and more aware of his needs. We are more family oriented rather than club/party. We stayed home for New Years. We are doing better still since we moved and remaking our home. She is smiling more today like she used to when we first meet.

We still have normal couples issues, but overall - we really talk more, share our feelings more. I hope this continues to improve and lasts.

Ugh, I'll update on my thread.
 
#51 ·
Just don't put all your eggs in one basket. Make sure you will be able to survive if old habits creep in. Stories like yours scare the hell out of me, but then again you probably know my MO by now. Anyway back to this thread.
 
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#52 ·
Sympathy for The Devil- Wayward Spouses and Compassion.
Me personally? I go back and forth between apathy and even pity for her.

With a rare occasional bout of thankfulness for giving me the reason I needed to dump her ass.

My life is so much better now with out hahaha. I love it!
 
#54 ·
Anyway, the point is that I'm generally able to see both sides of almost any story, and have compassion for most people. Even if I dislike them or find their actions distasteful or immoral, I can usually understand to some extent what made them feel led to act that way.
I would make for a very poor prosecutor, because were I to be at a murder trial, I could comfort the victim and the perpetrator in the same hour! "I know you didn't mean to kill him", I would say, to the shock and horror of the bereaved.

But the devil used to be God's favorite angel, and there are so many people crying in courtrooms, be they murder trials or divorce
You are very kind. Remain kind. Keep up the charity shown to all. Life will harden you....soon enough.
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................
Yes, and God is the only one who can forgive Satan. He is the Father of the original Wayward.

All manner of things come from the Creator. Good things and bad things. These are labels that we use to organize our lives, survive in our short lives.

It was Jesus who said: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". A true statement from God. But this line of thought is not so helpful for [us] lesser beings.

It is one thing to "forgive". It is another thing to understand human weakness and turn your cheek, only to be slaughtered for your beliefs.

Transgressions need consequences and punishment.

A puppy that pees on the floor gets the newspaper "whack" across the nose to prevent the "bad" behavior. What he did was not bad in reality, but bad in situational context.

People are selfish and violent. This is reality. But in context "civilization" cannot survive a lack of law and order.

Wayward behavior violates the vows given on ones wedding day. Broken vows can be forgiven intellectually, rarely emotionally.
 
#62 · (Edited)
Oh my gods, everyone, I just found the most amazing workbook! It deals with fear of loss/fear of abandonment and lack of self-love. It is PERFECT for wayward spouses because it encourages one to address all the "whys" as to why the WS cheated and why the WS needs "ego-kibbles" and validation from other people... WITHOUT being judgmental at ALL. (and without using degrading terms like "ego-kibbles"!) It mostly deals with when someone you love leaves you, but it can be seamlessly applied to situations wherein you must leave someone you love, such as breaking up with an AP to save your marriage.

It explains that the feelings of loss of a romantic partner (be it the BS or the AP or both) are perfectly natural and normal, and teaches you how to nurture your innermost needs, "pamper your wounds" without wallowing in despair, and be okay with you as you are.

It's called, "The Abandonment Recovery Workbook: Guidance through the 5 Stages of Healing from Abandonment, Heartbreak, and Loss"

I have just ordered it on Amazon and I'm working through the beginning pages right now. it's like an interactive diary. It's perfect and I love it. It looks like it'll be perfect for working through the feelings of loss I feel when my friends aren't there for me like I expect them to be, and great for working through the remnants of my shame with the OM. I'm probably going to share this with every WS I ever meet. I'll report back more later. OMG, I'm so happy I found this.
 
#63 ·
Seriously. I hope this is sarcasm. Your shoulder was so hurting you couldn't even type a couple days ago so there's no way you ordered and received this book yet. Plus, you're a couple of years out from your affair so any physiological withdrawal feelings you may be having over such loss at this point would be clearly intentional. This has to be a joke to provoke all us "mean and bitter" betrayed. I just can't fathom that after all that's been said on this thread, you MUST know how hurtful just the workbook title alone would be to a betrayed spouse.

I was one of the calmest most gentle empathetic betrayed husbands EVER and I'd have HATED that book and the thought of my wife needing/wanting to seriously work some bullcrap 5 stage self-help recovery book because OM abandoned her instead of a 200 stage book about marital recovery would just be too much.

In MOST homes, 5 stages to get over your friggin' boyfriend will rightfully end up being 5 bounces down the front steps to the front curb if that book isn't ripped up and thrown away immediately.

Not to mention, any book that breaks things down into seeming convenient steps like that is bunk. It appeals to our nature of liking checklists and checking things off once completed. it's like the Kubler-Ross 5 stages of grief bullcrap ~ it correctly identifies typical feelings after the loss of a loved one but putting them in any order like there is any natural or normal flow to it is a misnomer.
 
#66 ·
I have only personally known two prolific, cheaters in my lifetime: My first W and my RSXW!

If either of them ever want to seek out the sympathy of old Arb, I highly suggest that they each consult Webster's, looking somewhere between the entries "sh*t" and "syphillis!"
 
#74 ·
Any man who would wish to break up a marriage, is no man at all. But, many women, I'm included...have dated ''bad guys''. I think it comes down not respecting ourselves enough, and the reasons for that are varying and different for every woman, so we attract men and are attracted to men who disrespect us, as well. Once you work on yourself, you no longer attract those types. Please keep working on yourself, Ella...so this never happens again. I hope the best for you and your husband, now. :eek:
 
#80 ·
This is a more painful post than many of the others I’ve written, because of its personal nature. Last night and this morning have not been easy for me. As my husband slept peacefully four feet away on a nearby couch, I lay in bed against six pillows and a heating pad, in entirely too much emotional (and physical) pain to sleep. As I said, I’d been working through the workbook I mentioned (The Abandonment Recovery Workbook, still very much recommend it) and it brought back a WHOLE lot of ill feelings and even brought on a flashback at one point.
I found it very interesting to note that in the author’s examples, she describes both a betrayed spouse whose husband cheated on her and a wayward spouse who can’t seem to let go of her affair partner, both being in her group therapy sessions and using this workbook. Come to think of it, this would be an excellent book for betrayed spouses trying to keep to the 180 as well. After a brief introduction to the concept of abandonment and a description of who has found the book helpful, it described the five sets of feelings, in no particular order, that people go through when they perceive they have been betrayed or abandoned.

The Five Stages of Abandonment

Shattering: The painful tear in your attachment, a stab wound to the heart. The sudden disconnection sends you into panic, devastation, shock, and bewilderment. You feel symbiotically attached to your lost Person—as if you couldn’t survive alone. You’re in crisis and feel as if you’d been severed from your Siamese twin and you were in the recovery room in pain and alone. You try to keep remnants of your fractured self together, but your whole sense of reality feels destroyed. One minute you succumb to the overwhelming despair, suicidal feelings, and sorrow. The next, you see glimmers of hope.

Withdrawal: Love withdrawal is just like heroin withdrawal—each involves intense yearning for the object of desire, and this craving is mediated by opioids within your body. You feel a painful aching, longing, needing a love fix and can’t get one. You feel strung out. Your mind incessantly waits for your lost love to call or return. You’re plagued with separation anxiety—an expectant, urgent feeling of heightened vulnerability. Physical components of withdrawal from love are the same as they are for withdrawal from heroin. You’re in withdrawal from your endogenous opiates as well as suffused with fight-or-flight stress hormones. Your withdrawal symptoms include wasting, weight loss, wakefulness.

Internalizing: You begin to turn your rage over being rejected against yourself, which accounts for the intense depression that accompanies abandonment. You idealize your lost Person at your own expense, indicting yourself for losing the most important person in your life. You internalize the rejection, interpreting the dismissal as evidence of your alleged personal unworthiness. Internalizing is the most critical stage, when your wound can become infected, scarring your self-image. You inculcate a narcissistic injury. Your self-doubt has the power to implant an invisible drain deep within the self that insidiously leaches self-esteem from within. You have grave doubts about your ability to hold someone’s love and blame yourself for the loss. Old feelings of insecurity merge into your new wound, creating lingering insecurity. Without recovery, this feeling can interfere in future relationships.

Rage: You attempt to reverse the rejection, expressing rage over being left. You are restless to get your life back in order and riddled with low frustration tolerance, your anger spurting out of control. You resent being thrust into aloneness against your will. You regress into fantasies of revenge and retaliation. Your aggressive energy is like a pressure cooker. You boil over easily, sometimes spewing anger onto innocent bystanders (like your friends when they fail to understand what you’re going through). Many of you who have difficulty with assertiveness tend to invert your rage into an agitated depression.

Lifting: Life begins to distract you, lifting you back into it. You experience intervals of peace and confidence. Abandonment’s lessons are learned, and you get ready to live again. Without recovery, some of you make the mistake of lifting above your feelings, losing touch with your emotional center, becoming more isolated than before.

You swirl through the stages within an hour, a day, a year, cycles in cycles, and you emerge out the end of its funnel-shaped cloud a changed person. As you learn how to handle the feelings at each stage of this overwhelming process, this transformation lifts you to greater life and love.
After I had read what each of the stages were, the book asked me to think about the relationship(s) in my life over which I had felt these feelings. It asked me to journal, about how each of these stages felt when I left behind or lost each of these people. I won’t go into detail about everything I wrote last night; that would take a whole page. Or two. But I wrote about my friend, who had insulted my husband and said I deserved the OM’s abuse. I wrote about the shock I felt, the longing for comfort, the anger, the self-loathing, the relief. I wrote it all down, spilling out paragraphs. I'm glad my shoulder is healed enough that I can type without worsening it. I wrote about another male friend, whose friendship I’d had to give up because it was a codependent friendship and- though there was no deception involved and my husband knew of every conversation- I depended on him more than was healthy, and unknowingly made my husband feel left out in the cold. I wrote about feeling all those things for him, too. I ALMOST wrote about the OM the same way, but I couldn’t fill out any other categories except “Internalizing” and “Rage”. I hate myself for trusting him. I hate him for doing what he did to his daughter, for trying to do it to me. I hate myself, I hate him, I hate myself, I hate him… I finally had to close the laptop and give up for the night because I wasn’t getting anywhere.

The worst part about all this is that my husband forgives me for everything and his forgiveness doesn’t bring me any relief. He knows about EVERYTHING I’ve ever said to EVERYONE, and he forgives me for the OM and for my codependent friendship, and tells me I haven’t done anything wrong otherwise. We’ve talked about it so much, and I’ve apologized so much, and I’ve read all the infidelity books- a few even with him. But I still feel “The Swirl” as the book calls it, and so I’m here writing and crying and remembering, hoping I can stop hating myself by the time I reach the end of this workbook.
I finally curled up next to my husband and held him tight. I could feel him smile even in the dark.
 
#81 ·
This is a more painful post than many of the others I’ve written, because of its personal nature. Last night and this morning have not been easy for me. As my husband slept peacefully four feet away on a nearby couch, I lay in bed against six pillows and a heating pad, in entirely too much emotional (and physical) pain to sleep. As I said, I’d been working through the workbook I mentioned (The Abandonment Recovery Workbook, still very much recommend it) and it brought back a WHOLE lot of ill feelings and even brought on a flashback at one point.
I found it very interesting to note that in the author’s examples, she describes both a betrayed spouse whose husband cheated on her and a wayward spouse who can’t seem to let go of her affair partner, both being in her group therapy sessions and using this workbook. Come to think of it, this would be an excellent book for betrayed spouses trying to keep to the 180 as well. After a brief introduction to the concept of abandonment and a description of who has found the book helpful, it described the five sets of feelings, in no particular order, that people go through when they perceive they have been betrayed or abandoned.



After I had read what each of the stages were, the book asked me to think about the relationship(s) in my life over which I had felt these feelings. It asked me to journal, about how each of these stages felt when I left behind or lost each of these people. I won’t go into detail about everything I wrote last night; that would take a whole page. Or two. But I wrote about my friend, who had insulted my husband and said I deserved the OM’s abuse. I wrote about the shock I felt, the longing for comfort, the anger, the self-loathing, the relief. I wrote it all down, spilling out paragraphs. I'm glad my shoulder is healed enough that I can type without worsening it. I wrote about another male friend, whose friendship I’d had to give up because it was a codependent friendship and- though there was no deception involved and my husband knew of every conversation- I depended on him more than was healthy, and unknowingly made my husband feel left out in the cold. I wrote about feeling all those things for him, too. I ALMOST wrote about the OM the same way, but I couldn’t fill out any other categories except “Internalizing” and “Rage”. I hate myself for trusting him. I hate him for doing what he did to his daughter, for trying to do it to me. I hate myself, I hate him, I hate myself, I hate him… I finally had to close the laptop and give up for the night because I wasn’t getting anywhere.

The worst part about all this is that my husband forgives me for everything and his forgiveness doesn’t bring me any relief. He knows about EVERYTHING I’ve ever said to EVERYONE, and he forgives me for the OM and for my codependent friendship, and tells me I haven’t done anything wrong otherwise. We’ve talked about it so much, and I’ve apologized so much, and I’ve read all the infidelity books- a few even with him. But I still feel “The Swirl” as the book calls it, and so I’m here writing and crying and remembering, hoping I can stop hating myself by the time I reach the end of this workbook.
I finally curled up next to my husband and held him tight. I could feel him smile even in the dark.
Did your husband ever go through any pain over this or was he always in forgive you mode?
 
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