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post #16 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 05:42 PM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Originally Posted by EunuchMonk View Post
More fixed and stubborn in their ways? What do you think the deep introspection is for? For change. If you admit you don't want to change then stay by yourself until you find someone compatible with the way you already are.
People don't really change significantly once their personality is developed and they're adults, say by their mid 20s. Yes, years of intensive therapy by a qualified, competent, caring therapist might turn on a few light bulbs but for the most part no one is going anywhere.

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You sound like you have a defeatist attitude so I will let you wallow and become a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm just being realistic. The high failure rate of marriages, especially subsequent marriages, says it all.

For the record I'm happily involved with my girlfriend aka domestic partner aka live in girlfriend for 5 years, and we're doing great. But we'd never marry again, because we both understand it's pointless.


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post #17 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 06:09 PM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Originally Posted by sidney2718 View Post
All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?

@sidney2718,

Here's my take: when people have a first marriage that is difficult they sometimes think that by leaving the marriage, all their problems will go away. We've seen it time and again: one spouse blames the other for all the problems they've ever experienced, and blames them "how they feel," and blames them for their own unhappiness...thus they think something close to "If I get rid of my spouse, I get rid of all the problems, I'll feel better, and I won't be unhappy."

Unfortunately those of us who are rational know that getting rid of one person does not get rid of all problems! It just introduces a whole addition set of NEW problems!

So rather brilliantly you ask, "Should we rethink our advice?" Honestly I don't think we should be debating percentages and science and results here. The question is: "Should we rethink our advice?" and I believe the answer is "Possibly, yes!"

Here's why:

When we tell someone (loyal or disloyal) that a wonderful second spouse is "out there somewhere" we don't know that! It is within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they will choose someone very similar to their first spouse and have all the same problems. It is equally within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they'll choose someone exactly the opposite of their first spouse and encounter all THOSE problems!

See, part of the "problems" stay with the person unless they address them and choose to change--and part of the "problems" are just inherent in sharing life with another human being who is not you--and another part of the "problems" will be a whole new set of "problems" that are unique to second marriage such as raising step-kids, paying child support, splitting tax refunds with the ex, etc.

So for us to say "There's a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage" is not necessarily wise advice. In real life, being with any other human requires some growth on your part, and requires some negotiations and communication. Even if they find someone who is more mature, who is a better fit personality-wise, who has many similar interests, and was raised in a very similar way (aka "They get along great"), if they have not grown from their divorce, they will likely do some of the same harmful things again and harm their second marriage. If they have not learned how to negotiate and communicate, they will likely not have that great, dream second marriage.

AND finding the same "type" of second spouse AND committing some of the same errors in their second marriage AND now facing the new issues of a second marriage, well shoot! For 60-70% of the people it's just added on more problems to a situation fraught with problems!

So rather than advising people "Leave your spouse--there is a great second spouse out there for you!" I'd say we'd be wiser to recommend that no matter what they choose, do whatever work they may need to do, learn and grow, and become better people. Then they can make either choice (stay or leave) and do a better job at it!


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post #18 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 06:49 PM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Something I read on-line last night has been eating at me ever since. I don't remember the exact figures but as I understand it about 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce.



We knew that.



What I didn't know was that something around 60-70% of SECOND marriages fail as well.



The reasons seem to be, excess baggage from the prior marriage, difficulty in integrating children, financial difficulties caused by the first marriage, and on and on.



All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?


What you fail to consider here is that the first divorce is a psychological barrier. Once it is crossed, it becomes easier to do a second time. Like cheating.

Also early in the first marriage we are optimistic and hope things get better. Eventually we learn it doesn't get better and start focusing on own our needs. So if the second partner doesn't measure up we know that it won't get better and we won't stick around.
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post #19 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:07 PM Thread Starter
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Re: Second Marriages

I want to thank all that have participated. My personal feeling leans toward the "introspection" point of view, but I also feel that introspection isn't the right word.

In my longish life so far I've seen many marriages and breakups. There was often some seriously bad behavior, usually infidelity. But since I knew the couple I could easily see that there were problems in the relationship. If the wife left the husband (the most common TAM case) it was clear to me and others that the husband had some serious faults. Does that justify an affair? Of course not but remember we here to not like spouses who come home one day to announce that they no longer love their partner---with no affair hiding in the background.

I think that we need to pry a bit more into the OP's character and personality before judging the situation. Our advice probably would still be divorce, but we wouldn't fool the OP by claiming that there is an angle out there just waiting for them.
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post #20 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 07:14 PM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Originally Posted by sidney2718 View Post
Something I read on-line last night has been eating at me ever since. I don't remember the exact figures but as I understand it about 40-50% of first marriages end in divorce.

We knew that.

What I didn't know was that something around 60-70% of SECOND marriages fail as well.

The reasons seem to be, excess baggage from the prior marriage, difficulty in integrating children, financial difficulties caused by the first marriage, and on and on.

All of which raises a question: should we be telling folks contemplating divorce to go ahead and do it because a wonderful second spouse is out there somewhere? Is the data just crappy? Or do we need to rethink our advice?
I've read that, too and I wonder if some of it stems from second marriages that were affairs to start, the first marriage ended (because of the affair) and the affair couple thought they'd find bliss. I also think that people who get married a second time, didn't spend enough time working on themselves and healing from the first marriage, so they jump into the next relationship, thinking the first marriage was the problem or they married the wrong person.

Every now and then, you fall in love with the most unexpected person at the most unexpected time. - unknown

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post #21 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-12-2017, 08:29 PM
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Re: Second Marriages

Second marriages fail because the added stress of blending families quickly detiorates a relationship. Stepparenting and stepchildren dynamics are brutal. I've heard from several women that they're happier with their second husbands but due to issues with their kids, they would have fought harder to save their first marriages.

While I don't believe that a couple should only stay together "for the kids," I do recognize how challenging blended family issues can be and how hard they are on a second marriage.
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post #22 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 12:28 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Originally Posted by browser View Post
People don't really change significantly once they're personality is developed and they're adults, say by their mid 20s. Yes, years of intensive therapy by a qualified, competent, caring therapist might turn on a few light bulbs but for the most part no one is going anywhere.
True. They don't. Doesn't mean they can't. Again, it all has to do with the level of dedication you have to changing. If you want to be complacent and go with the flow, don't ***** and moan about how things are when you refuse to go out of your comfort zone to change things, is my way of thinking.


Quote:
I'm just being realistic. The high failure rate of marriages, especially subsequent marriages, says it all.

For the record I'm happily involved with my girlfriend aka domestic partner aka live in girlfriend for 5 years, and we're doing great. But we'd never marry again, because we both understand it's pointless.
You accept that reality. All the sheep go that way so you go too. Whatever works for you. FYI, non married relationships fail just as much.

Even if I don't get likes for it, I'm still going to say it.
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post #23 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 03:43 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

Granted many second marriages are great, my father is a case in point, he has been with my step mum for 35 years.
However, the problems individuals have (all have flaws) will be carried into the next marriage.
All too often the reason why people have affairs, get divorced, etc is because they are looking for the 20% they can't find in their first marriage, they find it in the second one but then more than 20% is missing.

Bottom line is you cannot find happiness in another person, you have to find it in yourself but too many people think that happiness comes only by having a partner.
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post #24 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 07:39 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

So then divorce but don't remarry.

Virginia: "Why can't you kids leave well enough alone? Everything was fine until you started digging around."

Burt: "You sound like a Scooby Doo villain."
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post #25 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 07:42 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

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FYI, non married relationships fail just as much.
I never said nor implied that non-married relationships are somehow less prone to failure.

What I did say was that when a non-married couple decides they want out, they can do it much easier and faster without all those expensive and messy legal proceedings that are necessary to end a marriage.

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post #26 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 10:48 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

After being cheated on and divorcing... I'm in the "One and Done" camp. The only 100% proof positive way you won't be cheated on again and go down the D road.

BTW, I did R.

I guess it comes down to a simple choice, really. Get busy living or get busy dying... Andy, Shawshank Redemption.
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post #27 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 11:07 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

Let's be honest...40-50% 1st Marriages end in Divorce. The other 25% are in miserable and too scared of the unknown to end it. Maybe 25% are truly happy and no regrets. That might be high.

Once you survive a divorce, you don't put up with crap again and not afraid to start over. Life is short, you can always make more money tomorrow or find a wealthier partner (ha). It does raise the question why even bother to get married. It's the commitment that you won't just walk away when things get tough and you have to at least try to make things work.

I'm engaged and set to get married for a 2nd time in 6 months. Trying to buy a house right now and blend our families officially. It won't be easy but I'm willing to do it because I love my girl and don't want to go a day without seeing her or her kids. I'll post back in 10 years and let you know if it was a good decision.
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post #28 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 11:30 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Originally Posted by Affaircare View Post
@sidney2718,

Here's my take: when people have a first marriage that is difficult they sometimes think that by leaving the marriage, all their problems will go away. We've seen it time and again: one spouse blames the other for all the problems they've ever experienced, and blames them "how they feel," and blames them for their own unhappiness...thus they think something close to "If I get rid of my spouse, I get rid of all the problems, I'll feel better, and I won't be unhappy."

Unfortunately those of us who are rational know that getting rid of one person does not get rid of all problems! It just introduces a whole addition set of NEW problems!

So rather brilliantly you ask, "Should we rethink our advice?" Honestly I don't think we should be debating percentages and science and results here. The question is: "Should we rethink our advice?" and I believe the answer is "Possibly, yes!"

Here's why:

When we tell someone (loyal or disloyal) that a wonderful second spouse is "out there somewhere" we don't know that! It is within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they will choose someone very similar to their first spouse and have all the same problems. It is equally within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they'll choose someone exactly the opposite of their first spouse and encounter all THOSE problems!

See, part of the "problems" stay with the person unless they address them and choose to change--and part of the "problems" are just inherent in sharing life with another human being who is not you--and another part of the "problems" will be a whole new set of "problems" that are unique to second marriage such as raising step-kids, paying child support, splitting tax refunds with the ex, etc.

So for us to say "There's a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage" is not necessarily wise advice. In real life, being with any other human requires some growth on your part, and requires some negotiations and communication. Even if they find someone who is more mature, who is a better fit personality-wise, who has many similar interests, and was raised in a very similar way (aka "They get along great"), if they have not grown from their divorce, they will likely do some of the same harmful things again and harm their second marriage. If they have not learned how to negotiate and communicate, they will likely not have that great, dream second marriage.

AND finding the same "type" of second spouse AND committing some of the same errors in their second marriage AND now facing the new issues of a second marriage, well shoot! For 60-70% of the people it's just added on more problems to a situation fraught with problems!

So rather than advising people "Leave your spouse--there is a great second spouse out there for you!" I'd say we'd be wiser to recommend that no matter what they choose, do whatever work they may need to do, learn and grow, and become better people. Then they can make either choice (stay or leave) and do a better job at it!
I agree with this, I feel like my wife is thinking everything will be fixed if we get divorced but some of the reasons she has given me are going to remain or and some aspects will get worse.

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post #29 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 11:39 AM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Let's be honest...40-50% 1st Marriages end in Divorce. The other 25% are in miserable and too scared of the unknown to end it. Maybe 25% are truly happy and no regrets. That might be high.
The statistics you quote are accurate. About half of first marriages end in divorce. The vast majority of subsequent marriages end in divorce and of the remaining first and subsequent marriages a large part of those are only "intact" because of fear or finances or "the children" or just plain convenience.

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Once you survive a divorce, you don't put up with crap again and not afraid to start over.
You and I draw very different conclusions. You jumped right into a subsequent marriage with a woman you know less than 9 months, where as I'll never get married again even though I am half of a very happy couple in a long exclusive committed relationship that just passed the 5 year mark.

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Life is short, you can always make more money tomorrow or find a wealthier partner (ha).
Life is short, so why spend a good chunk of it litigating, and rebuilding your hard earned money and assets you lost in a divorce only to do it all over again? You cannot assume you can always "make more money" or even earn back a small part of what you lose in the first divorce. Nor can you assume a wealthier partner is waiting right around the corner for you to scoop into your arms.

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It does raise the question why even bother to get married. It's the commitment that you won't just walk away when things get tough and you have to at least try to make things work.
Yes it does raise the question why get married again. Your given answer "it's harder to walk away from so you'll try harder to make things work" is flawed on so many levels that I won't even begin to try to tear it apart in this post, but I will say this "marriage simply makes it that much more difficult to walk away from a failed relationship, it does not make it any easier to fix".

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I'll post back in 10 years and let you know if it was a good decision.
I'm thinking you'll find out way before then.
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post #30 of 57 (permalink) Old 03-13-2017, 12:41 PM
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Re: Second Marriages

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Originally Posted by Affaircare View Post
... Here's my take: when people have a first marriage that is difficult they sometimes think that by leaving the marriage, all their problems will go away. We've seen it time and again: one spouse blames the other for all the problems they've ever experienced, and blames them "how they feel," and blames them for their own unhappiness...thus they think something close to "If I get rid of my spouse, I get rid of all the problems, I'll feel better, and I won't be unhappy."

Unfortunately those of us who are rational know that getting rid of one person does not get rid of all problems! It just introduces a whole addition set of NEW problems!

So rather brilliantly you ask, "Should we rethink our advice?" Honestly I don't think we should be debating percentages and science and results here. The question is: "Should we rethink our advice?" and I believe the answer is "Possibly, yes!"

Here's why:

When we tell someone (loyal or disloyal) that a wonderful second spouse is "out there somewhere" we don't know that! It is within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they will choose someone very similar to their first spouse and have all the same problems. It is equally within the realm of conceivability that when they pick a second spouse, they'll choose someone exactly the opposite of their first spouse and encounter all THOSE problems!

See, part of the "problems" stay with the person unless they address them and choose to change--and part of the "problems" are just inherent in sharing life with another human being who is not you--and another part of the "problems" will be a whole new set of "problems" that are unique to second marriage such as raising step-kids, paying child support, splitting tax refunds with the ex, etc.

So for us to say "There's a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage" is not necessarily wise advice. In real life, being with any other human requires some growth on your part, and requires some negotiations and communication. Even if they find someone who is more mature, who is a better fit personality-wise, who has many similar interests, and was raised in a very similar way (aka "They get along great"), if they have not grown from their divorce, they will likely do some of the same harmful things again and harm their second marriage. If they have not learned how to negotiate and communicate, they will likely not have that great, dream second marriage.

AND finding the same "type" of second spouse AND committing some of the same errors in their second marriage AND now facing the new issues of a second marriage, well shoot! For 60-70% of the people it's just added on more problems to a situation fraught with problems!

So rather than advising people "Leave your spouse--there is a great second spouse out there for you!" I'd say we'd be wiser to recommend that no matter what they choose, do whatever work they may need to do, learn and grow, and become better people. Then they can make either choice (stay or leave) and do a better job at it!
I beg to differ with the first bolded bit, but agree with your second, closing statement. I got rid of all of my problems associated with my ex and first marriage most definitively when I left her. I already owned any issues I had, and worked on myself to avoid having the same issues in any subsequent relationship. Whether or not someone great is out there, I found it better to be alone for a while, than remain in my first marriage. Of course, if you don't know what the problems were, who was responsible, and your own role in creating them or letting them grow, then you may not do better. That's still no reason to stay in an unhappy, possibly toxic relationship!

As for me, I did find "a magical better fit for you out there if you just leave this marriage." No guarantee anyone else will, but without dumping a bad relationship, you don't even have hope to find something better. My new relationship didn't add new problems - just introduced different ones that were less negative and burdensome versus those with my ex, which as I said, were gone when she was gone. And it is often still better to divorce and be alone than continue to put up with problems you haven't been able to - and likely can't - solve.

Love is an ideal thing; marriage is a real thing; a confusion of the real with the ideal never goes unpunished. - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

CELIBACY IS NOT HEREDITARY.
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