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post #76 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:21 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by ddude23 View Post
I feel like she's going back and forth on what she wants to do. She has not mentioned divorce. She wants to try a counsel session today and see how it goes. I feel like maybe it can't hurt. To get everything out maybe. I'm just not understanding at all. Now I feel stupid for believing her about not being physical. I was looking at our wedding pictures, looking at all texts and notes she's given over the years telling me she loves me. I feel horrible and like my stomach is about to drop.
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Originally Posted by Thorburn View Post
Counseling when one is involved in an affair it not typically helpful. If you go, be silent, don't say a word. You will hear a bunch of crap from your wife, DON'T RESPOND. It will more than likely be hateful. You have been warned.
I agree with @Thorburn. Most counsellors are trained in helping people who want to stay married but need help communicating with each other. Your issue is not (only) lack of communication, but the fact that there is a third person in your marriage. And if your wife thought counselling would have helped your marriage, she would have suggested it long before embarking on an affair.

I did counselling with my cheater ex, who got extremely hateful about the therapist because all his suggestions for us began with "end contact with your affair partner." Turns out all my ex wanted was for the therapist to convince me an open marriage was a good idea. When that didn't happen, my ex refused to keep attending.

A counsellor will, at best, try to find problems with the marriage that both of you contribute to, and at worst, side with your wife that your behaviour drove her to fall for another man, and try to get you to change. Those are not the problems in your marriage. Your marriage problems are that your wife has no integrity.

Your wife needs to fix her own integrity problem with individual counselling before you two attempt marriage counselling. Treat this as an opportunity to observe her individual counselling by not saying much, as @Thorburn suggests. I would advise seeking private individual counselling of your own, too, to help you deal with the freight train of shock you are feeling right now. Your previous main support system, your wife, is currently indefinitely unavailable.

Don't forget, people lie to counsellors too, especially when another person is present and especially when the counsellor is closing in on emotional territory the subject doesn't want to examine.

Also remember, counselling aside, your wife doesn't have a choice to make, between you and this other man. She already chose you in 2008. What she's doing now is going back on that choice, which, in my experience, means she's already decided otherwise and just has no idea how to tell you. She's not deciding; she stalling.

One other resource I haven't seen mentioned yet: Chump Lady. Here's a link to a post of hers that helps you evaluate your wife's sincerity. https://www.chumplady.com/2013/07/re...ahyde-remorse/ Don't show it to a cheater though; it just helps them fake sincerity better.

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post #77 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:23 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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I feel like she's going back and forth on what she wants to do. She has not mentioned divorce. She wants to try a counsel session today and see how it goes. I feel like maybe it can't hurt. To get everything out maybe. I'm just not understanding at all. Now I feel stupid for believing her about not being physical. I was looking at our wedding pictures, looking at all texts and notes she's given over the years telling me she loves me. I feel horrible and like my stomach is about to drop.

My sister is a lawyer, a very good one at that and she's in the same town as us. I'm going to give her a call and ask to meet with her. She has always told me if I ever needed anything then to go to her. I feel like I am just going to vent about everything.
Stop taking trips down memory lane for now, looking at old texts, pictures will just let for emotional heart override your rational brain.

Quit trying to figure out what's she is thinking, you cant. Worry about yourself and what do you want to do, not what she wants.

Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday
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post #78 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:23 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
Some folks here are giving you advice on how to save your marriage. Unfortunately, that ball really is not in your court. The only thing you are in control of is yourself and what you decide to do. She has made it clear that you are not her number one choice anymore - that at best you're second fiddle. Does it not make you extremely angry that your wife is saying "well, I think I love someone else, and I need time to decide whether I'm going to dump you and go with this guy that I have serious feelings for - or maybe, just maybe, I'll change my mind and pick you". Do you realize what she thinks of you and your marriage? Not much. She's said, in so many words, you don't mean jack **** to her.
So much this. First of all, to be frank, she may in the end not pick you, which makes the reconciliation advice have no merit at he moment. Most importantly life is hard, probably one of the top 3 things you need in a spouse it loyalty (she has shown you she is not at all). Trust, (strike 2). Finally love, she may still love you but if she does this to you what is her love worth. Love is also probably the easiest of those things to find now a days, and SO not worth the other two. Not having the other two will kill the love anyway.

Do you really want to go through the war with someone who is so quick to stab you in the back. You are young. It's time to regroup, maybe retreat but ultimately win the battle. Frankly your wife is a cliche, go here or any other relationship board and about ever 5 threads is an example of a woman like this. They are the bottom of the barrel as far as wives go. They are the McDonalds of spouses, and there seems to be a hell of a lot of them out there. They seem to only be able to do the relationship thing until the point that they don't have the butterflies. When the standard less exciting aspects of life show up they bail. Most importantly they are not the type that you or anyone should waste your life on. Everything is instant gratification and feels to them. Now is the time when you are young to learn this and stay as far away from them as possible. I call them emotional vampires. They suck the love out of you until you are emotional dry and dead, then move on to their next victim.

There was another poster on here who's wife cheated on him with his friend. She was also barren. He now has a new wife an a young child who means the world to him. Hopefully some other poster will I am sure post it for me as I don't remember the title. You should read that one.

Life is way TOO short my friend.

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post #79 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:30 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
This is how you do it. Take back your power.

Divorce is painful and awful. Staying with a cheater is worse - if she allows that to happen. The marriage is not yours to save. It's yours to end. She mortally wounded it - it's up to you to put it out of its misery. Sad but true.

I regained my pride and self respect when I ended the false reconciliation with my exww. I still maintain that pride - knowing I had the strength and self respect to say "I am not willing to have someone who would treat me like their worst enemy in my life any longer. Goodbye".
Beautifully said. However there are a lot of people who settle for a plan B life.
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post #80 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:30 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Dr. Harley in Surviving an Affair says we're all hard wired to cheat. The solution is to make sure you're not putting yourself in tempting situations. The OP's wife allowed herself to develop feelings for the OM and take it further by allowing personal, private contact via text, which I agree is poor behavior and boundaries. She put herself in this situation. There is still a possibility that she did not have a PA, and that she can prevent this from happening again by learning how to instill appropriate boundaries in the future. This is only if the OP is willing to reconcile with her- he has every right to decide not to, of course. An EA is still cheating.
I'm sorry, but Dr Hartley is full of ****. I read that book. We are NOT all hardwired to cheat. That is an absolute, 100% lie. I was in tempting situations CONSTANTLY when I was married - a professional gigging musician. My exww accused me of cheating our entire marriage - and treated me as a cheater. I had every opportunity, and what many would consider motive (if you're constantly being accused of cheating and being treated that way, why not cheat and at least enjoy the benefits of it??)...and I NEVER cheated. Never considered it. NEVER. Just because someone writes a book on something doesn't mean they know anything about it.

"The solution is to make sure you're not putting yourself in tempting situations."

A decent, moral, honest person with integrity and values can be in tempting situations all the live long day and never cheat. I'm a case in point. A cheater will cheat whether or not they are in such situations. They may be more likely to cheat when tempted, but it's in their nature, and they will do it regardless. Just like a person who is not a cheater, will not cheat, regardless of the circumstances.
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post #81 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:35 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
I'm sorry, but Dr Hartley is full of ****. I read that book. We are NOT all hardwired to cheat. That is an absolute, 100% lie. I was in tempting situations CONSTANTLY when I was married - a professional gigging musician. My exww accused me of cheating our entire marriage - and treated me as a cheater. I had every opportunity, and what many would consider motive (if you're constantly being accused of cheating and being treated that way, why not cheat and at least enjoy the benefits of it??)...and I NEVER cheated. Never considered it. NEVER. Just because someone writes a book on something doesn't mean they know anything about it.

"The solution is to make sure you're not putting yourself in tempting situations."

A decent, moral, honest person with integrity and values can be in tempting situations and never cheat. I'm a case in point. A cheater will cheat whether or not they are in such situations. They may be more likely to cheat when tempted, but it's in their nature, and they will do it regardless. Just like a person who is not a cheater, will not cheat, regardless of the circumstances.
I do get that some people can be like that- I'm one of them. I just have no desire to get emotionally or physically close to another man, no matter how attractive. But there are MANY instances of spouses who had no intention of looking for an affair and developed feelings for someone they were either working closely with or spending a lot of time with. That's why affairs in the workplace are so common.
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post #82 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:40 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
I'm sorry, but Dr Hartley is full of ****. I read that book. We are NOT all hardwired to cheat. That is an absolute, 100% lie. I was in tempting situations CONSTANTLY when I was married - a professional gigging musician. My exww accused me of cheating our entire marriage - and treated me as a cheater. I had every opportunity, and what many would consider motive (if you're constantly being accused of cheating and being treated that way, why not cheat and at least enjoy the benefits of it??)...and I NEVER cheated. Never considered it. NEVER. Just because someone writes a book on something doesn't mean they know anything about it.

"The solution is to make sure you're not putting yourself in tempting situations."

A decent, moral, honest person with integrity and values can be in tempting situations all the live long day and never cheat. I'm a case in point. A cheater will cheat whether or not they are in such situations. They may be more likely to cheat when tempted, but it's in their nature, and they will do it regardless. Just like a person who is not a cheater, will not cheat, regardless of the circumstances.
Ah clarity, it's like bright sunshine. Dude where have you been? I could have used you on some of the treads I have been posting on.
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post #83 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:41 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by Jessica38 View Post
I do get that some people can be like that- I'm one of them. I just have no desire to get emotionally or physically close to another man, no matter how attractive. But there are MANY instances of spouses who had no intention of looking for an affair and developed feelings for someone they were either working closely with or spending a lot of time with. That's why affairs in the workplace are so common.
Good on you for being one of the good ones.

I'm the same as you - emotionally closed off and not willing to risk myself again. FWB is as deep as I go.

I agree there are many who didn't intend to have affairs and did - but again, that's not the circumstances or some blinding love that forced their hand. The people who cheat, regardless of the circumstances, are of a certain character (or lacking thereof). In my day job, while I was married, I was surrounded by beautiful, smart, cool women. Many of whom I could have cheated with. Hell, I was accused of sleeping with my coworkers by my ex constantly. But because of who I am, what my values are, and most importantly, the vows I took, I never, ever let it even get close to that point. I had a wall up. Boundaries. Boundaries that were built on the sanctity of marriage, my values, integrity - and the fact that I was simply unwilling to do something so cruel and heinous to the woman I promised my heart to.

To cheat is a choice. To not cheat is a choice as well - there is no difference. Free will dictates what one decides to do. It really is that simple.
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post #84 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:44 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
Good on you for being one of the good ones.

I'm the same as you - emotionally closed off and not willing to risk myself again. FWB is as deep as I go.

I agree there are many who didn't intend to have affairs and did - but again, that's not the circumstances or some blinding love that forced their hand. The people who cheat, regardless of the circumstances, are of a certain character (or lacking thereof). In my day job, while I was married, I was surrounded by beautiful, smart, cool women. Many of whom I could have cheated with. Hell, I was accused of sleeping with my coworkers by my ex constantly. But because of who I am, what my values are, and most importantly, the vows I took, I never, ever let it even get close to that point. I had a wall up. Boundaries. Boundaries that were built on the sanctity of marriage, my values, integrity - and the fact that I was simply unwilling to do something so cruel and heinous to the woman I promised my heart to.

To cheat is a choice. To not cheat is a choice as well - there is no difference. Free will dictates what one decides to do. It really is that simple.
You have to care about your honor more then your pleasure. It's really that simple.
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post #85 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:45 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by sokillme View Post
So much this. First of all, to be frank, she may in the end not pick you, which makes the reconciliation advice have no merit at he moment. Most importantly life is hard, probably one of the top 3 things you need in a spouse it loyalty (she has shown you she is not at all). Trust, (strike 2). Finally love, she may still love you but if she does this to you what is her love worth. Love is also probably the easiest of those things to find now a days, and SO not worth the other two. Not having the other two will kill the love anyway.

Do you really want to go through the war with someone who is so quick to stab you in the back. You are young. It's time to regroup, maybe retreat but ultimately win the battle. Frankly your wife is a cliche, go here or any other relationship board and about ever 5 threads is an example of a woman like this. They are the bottom of the barrel as far as wives go. They are the McDonalds of spouses, and there seems to be a hell of a lot of them out there. They seem to only be able to do the relationship thing until the point that they don't have the butterflies. When the standard less exciting aspects of life show up they bail. Most importantly they are not the type that you or anyone should waste your life on. Everything is instant gratification and feels to them. Now is the time when you are young to learn this and stay as far away from them as possible. I call them emotional vampires. They suck the love out of you until you are emotional dry and dead, then move on to their next victim.

There was another poster on here who's wife cheated on him with his friend. She was also barren. He now has a new wife an a young child who means the world to him. Hopefully some other poster will I am sure post it for me as I don't remember the title. You should read that one.

Life is way TOO short my friend.
Here you go, Ddude. Read and learn.

wife and best friend having (at least) an EA


"Our ability to feel joy is directly related to how much pain we are willing to feel." - Mavash.

"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #86 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:47 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
Good on you for being one of the good ones.

I'm the same as you - emotionally closed off and not willing to risk myself again. FWB is as deep as I go.

I agree there are many who didn't intend to have affairs and did - but again, that's not the circumstances or some blinding love that forced their hand. The people who cheat, regardless of the circumstances, are of a certain character (or lacking thereof). In my day job, while I was married, I was surrounded by beautiful, smart, cool women. Many of whom I could have cheated with. Hell, I was accused of sleeping with my coworkers by my ex constantly. But because of who I am, what my values are, and most importantly, the vows I took, I never, ever let it even get close to that point. I had a wall up. Boundaries. Boundaries that were built on the sanctity of marriage, my values, integrity - and the fact that I was simply unwilling to do something so cruel and heinous to the woman I promised my heart to.

To cheat is a choice. To not cheat is a choice as well - there is no difference. Free will dictates what one decides to do. It really is that simple.
Do you think this goes for emotional affairs too? I do think part of upholding boundaries is making sure you're not putting yourself in tempting situations or disrespectful situations. If a husband claims he has strong values and morals and would never physically cheat, does that mean his wife should be ok with her husband texting privately and/or spending time with other women without her around? Or that a wife should be trusted to hang out with other men without her husband around? After all, the OP's wife says it never got physical. She just developed feelings for the OM, and the OP is devastated. I would be too, even if my husband upheld his strong boundaries and never touched the OW.
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post #87 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:47 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by moth-into-flame View Post
I'm sorry, but Dr Hartley is full of ****. I read that book. We are NOT all hardwired to cheat. That is an absolute, 100% lie. I was in tempting situations CONSTANTLY when I was married - a professional gigging musician. My exww accused me of cheating our entire marriage - and treated me as a cheater. I had every opportunity, and what many would consider motive (if you're constantly being accused of cheating and being treated that way, why not cheat and at least enjoy the benefits of it??)...and I NEVER cheated. Never considered it. NEVER. Just because someone writes a book on something doesn't mean they know anything about it.

"The solution is to make sure you're not putting yourself in tempting situations."

A decent, moral, honest person with integrity and values can be in tempting situations all the live long day and never cheat. I'm a case in point. A cheater will cheat whether or not they are in such situations. They may be more likely to cheat when tempted, but it's in their nature, and they will do it regardless. Just like a person who is not a cheater, will not cheat, regardless of the circumstances.
Speaking as a Moderator:

If you want to discuss the merits of Dr. Harley's approach, start your own thread for discussion. Don't do it on a thread where the OP clearly needs help.

Any further infractions of invalidating someone's opinion or debating various methods will earn a 48 hour-1 week timeout.

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"The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for." - Bob Marley
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post #88 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:48 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

Sorry to hear this. It doesn't seem that she's giving you many options. It will make counseling or any kind of reconciliation nearly impossible if she's not willing to give the OM up. Since she's not giving you many options just give her one: no more contact with OM or leave, expect divorce papers and all her friends, family and OM's wife will be told what you have done. Crying at home and drinking is not going to solve this for you. A strong, no bones about it response from you may.

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post #89 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:50 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Ah clarity, it's like bright sunshine. Dude where have you been? I could have used you on some of the treads I have been posting on.
Haha, thanks! I was probably returning video tapes.
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post #90 of 504 (permalink) Old 03-16-2017, 11:53 AM
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Re: World has been turned upside down in a day.

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Originally Posted by farsidejunky View Post
Speaking as a Moderator:

If you want to discuss the merits of Dr. Harley's approach, start your own thread for discussion. Don't do it on a thread where the OP clearly needs help.

Any further infractions of invalidating someone's opinion or debating various methods will earn a 48 hour-1 week timeout.
Let me get this straight - I dispel an assertion Harley made in his book with proof of my own, and you threaten to ban me? I was responding to a post that directly referenced something Harley laid out as fact in his book - so totally on topic - proved with my own experience it's categorically untrue, and you threaten me?
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